QF3: Ireland v Argentina, 18 October

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IRELAND v ARGENTINA

18 October 2015
KO: 13:00 BST (UTC+01)
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff

Live on [tbc]

Ref: Jerome Garcès (France)
ARs: Romain Poite (France)and Chris Pollock (NZ)
TMO: George Ayoub (Australia)

A. Head to Head

15 Played 15
10 Won 5
0 Drawn 0
5 Lost 15
331 Points 283

B. Recent Form

14 June 2014
Estadio Monumental José Fierro, Tucumán
17 – 23 to Ireland

7 June 2014
Estadio Centenario, Resistencia
17 – 29 to Ireland

24 November 2012
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
46 – 24 to Ireland

28 November 2010
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
29 – 9 to Ireland

22 November 2008
Croke Park, Dublin
17 – 3 to Ireland

30 September 2007
Parc des Princes, Paris, France
30 – 15 to Argentina

2 June 2007
Estadio José Amalfitani, Buenos Aires
16 – 0 to Argentina

C. TEAMS:

IRELAND


15. Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
14. Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
13. Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
12. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)
11. Dave Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster)
10. Johnny Sexton (St Mary's College/Leinster)
9. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
2. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
3. Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
4. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)
5. Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
6. Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
7. Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster)
8. Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster) captain

Replacements;
16. Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster)
17. Jack McGrath (St Mary's College/Leinster)
18. Nathan White (Connacht)
19. Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
20. Rhys Ruddock (St Mary's College/Leinster)
21. Eoin Reddan (Old Crescent/Leinster)
22. Ian Madigan (Blackrock/Leinster)
23. Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock/Leinster)

ARGENTINA


15. Joaquin Tuculet
14. Santiago Cordero
13. Matías Moroni
12. Juan Martín Hernández
11. Juan Imhoff
10. Nicolás Sánchez
9. Martín Landajo
1. Marcos Ayerza
2. Agustín Creevy (c)
3. Ramiro Herrera
4. Guido Petti
5. Tomás Lavanini
6. Pablo Matera
7. Juan Martín Fernández Lobbe
8. Leonardo Senatore

Replacements:
16. Julián Montoya
17. Lucas Noguera
18. Juan Pablo Orlandi
19. Matías Alemanno
20. Facundo Isa
21. Tomás Cubelli
22. Jerónimo De La Fuente
23. Lucas González Amorosino

In fairness, ME-109 and Sin é, Dave Kearney has played well and earned his spot at 11 but I do agree with you both that Zebo was missing today at 11. His defence and attacking skills would have benefitted Ireland greatly today.

Anyone happen to know what odds you would have got pre-RWC on Scotland being the last NH nation standing (however briefly it may be)?

eirebilly wrote:In fairness, ME-109 and Sin é, Dave Kearney has played well and earned his spot at 11 but I do agree with you both that Zebo was missing today at 11. His defence and attacking skills would have benefitted Ireland greatly today.

He did deserve his place but in the Italian, French and now the Argentinian game he brings nothing in terms of attack unfortunately. In the French game he was anonymous, here he unfortunately got caught out (aided and abetted by his Brother) on three occasions.

Some people seem to think doing nothing is what makes an excellent wing...

ME-109 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:In fairness, ME-109 and Sin é, Dave Kearney has played well and earned his spot at 11 but I do agree with you both that Zebo was missing today at 11. His defence and attacking skills would have benefitted Ireland greatly today.

He did deserve his place but in the Italian, French and now the Argentinian game he brings nothing in terms of attack unfortunately. In the French game he was anonymous, here he unfortunately got caught out (aided and abetted by his Brother) on three occasions.

I really like Rob Kearney but his last man defending has never been strong in my opinion.

Dave had a horrible day really looked poor and Ireland did miss Zebo, especially his left boot, really thought he deserved a place on the bench at least.

Not long ago, Earls at 13 was the answer to Ireland's attack. He got a good run at it Over the last few months. Fitz (a much derided fella) comes on today and is the the answer to Ireland's attack. Fairly sure we all know absolutely nada about the finer points of being a pro. Zebo or no Zebo I don't think we would have done much more. But sure, what do I know.

Good DOD.  The two Kearneys were responsible for the whole show.

Oh it's much more fundamental than that.  I love the way all the lads here chase back to their Provincial cots for soothing.  If only it was one of our boys on the field, it would have all worked out great.

Delusion got a kick in the ass today and still it grins from ear to ear in some comments here.

Wow.

Still shocked at that.

Wasn't surprised we lost, but by the scorline.

We did well to get back to 3 points on the game.
After Madigans miss, it went to sh1t.

Just so disappointing.

Would we have won with sexton o Connell o Mahoney o Brien, who knows.

But to lose by 23 points is poor.

We did well to come back to 3 points in it.
I thought we would go on and win it.
Argentina's discipline was poor.

All congrats to them

But this is a result that will hurt for a long time.

SecretFly wrote:Good DOD.  The two Kearneys were responsible for the whole show.

Oh it's much more fundamental than that.  I love the way all the lads here chase back to their Provincial cots for soothing.  If only it was one of our boys on the field, it would have all worked out great.

Delusion got a kick in the ass today and still it grins from ear to ear in some comments here.

I dont think it was their fault at all (they didnt do anything different than usual today), plus I dont think Zebo would have made a bit of difference (although he might have made one or two more tackles and possibly given us more in attack....)....

But yeah...its more fundamental as it always has been.

Exiled Gael wrote:Oh excellent, the Munster twosome. You must be delighted we lost today. It'll keep you going for a day or two.

Kearney has outperformed Zebo in green and thus was picked today. Had a terrible game today unfortunately. Try and use some intelligence if you can find some. You never know, you might even like it.

You mean Kearney outperformed Zebo for all of the 7 minutes he has played on the wing since the first warm-up game against Wales when he came on for an injured Andrew Trimble?

Why do you always have to resort to personal insults?

I didn't see the game because I was eating in Toby Carvery with my family, but I'm amazed at that score line! What the hell happened lads?

Just looking at Scot/Aus at the moment it appears the better Clermont coach went to Scotland.....

SecretFly wrote:Good DOD.  The two Kearneys were responsible for the whole show.

Oh it's much more fundamental than that.  I love the way all the lads here chase back to their Provincial cots for soothing.  If only it was one of our boys on the field, it would have all worked out great.

Delusion got a kick in the ass today and still it grins from ear to ear in some comments here.

What is the alternative, Fly? Do we have the players to play an expansive game? I still think Schmidt is actually working to make the most of our strengths and weaknesses. We just didn't have the personnel for this game and we were badly exposed. Would you trust many of our players to play a quick paced offloading game? Do we have enough ball carriers to put us on the front foot?

We need to bring in the young players that may provide the answers to both of those questions, at the very least to put pressure on the senior players to step up the mark.

kunu wrote:Not long ago, Earls at 13 was the answer to Ireland's attack. He got a good run at it Over the last few months. Fitz (a much derided fella) comes on today and is the the answer to Ireland's attack. Fairly sure we all know absolutely nada about the finer points of being a pro. Zebo or no Zebo I don't think we would have done much more. But sure, what do I know.

He has started 3 games with Robbie Henshaw in the last month. Up to that he was playing on the wing, with Payne inside him.

Fairplay to Fitz he had a great day today which his form up to this didn't suggest (though I have always been a big fan as many will know here).

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Good DOD.  The two Kearneys were responsible for the whole show.

Oh it's much more fundamental than that.  I love the way all the lads here chase back to their Provincial cots for soothing.  If only it was one of our boys on the field, it would have all worked out great.

Delusion got a kick in the ass today and still it grins from ear to ear in some comments here.

What is the alternative, Fly? Do we have the players to play an expansive game? I still think Schmidt is actually working to make the most of our strengths and weaknesses. We just didn't have the personnel for this game and we were badly exposed. Would you trust many of our players to play a quick paced offloading game? Do we have enough ball carriers to put us on the front foot?

We need to bring in the young players that may provide the answers to both of those questions, at the very least to put pressure on the senior players to step up the mark.

I actually think that Schmidt over coaches. I look at Zebo and I see all the flair being coached out of him. Its like they are all afraid to make a mistake as they will get the hairdryer treatment. Dave Kearney is a fine player, but he lacks flair and most importantly pace to be an international winger. I'd would have him behind Zebo & Fitz on the wing.

It is true that we are missing a few key components that we have always been missing under Schmidt: flair and power. We have been lacking the big powerful ball carriers to put us on the front foot and the flair in the outer channels to capitalise on that. We need to look at certain players to seriously strengthen our attack.

Henderson is one player we need to basically build our pack around. But he needs other players who can share the load effectively.

I think Schmidt and Gatland coach to be successful in the 6 nations to be honest. they coach in general to beat England and France. Thats their bread and butter, you can shrug your shoulders at a bad world cup, but you can't really get away with a bad 6 nations too often.

Shifty wrote:I think Schmidt and Gatland coach to be successful in the 6 nations to be honest.  they coach in general to beat England and France.  Thats their bread and butter, you can shrug your shoulders at a bad world cup, but you can't really get away with a bad 6 nations too often.  

Their is certainly a requirement from the IRFU as that is their cash cow so to speak. Probably the same for the WRU.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Good DOD.  The two Kearneys were responsible for the whole show.

Oh it's much more fundamental than that.  I love the way all the lads here chase back to their Provincial cots for soothing.  If only it was one of our boys on the field, it would have all worked out great.

Delusion got a kick in the ass today and still it grins from ear to ear in some comments here.

What is the alternative, Fly? Do we have the players to play an expansive game? I still think Schmidt is actually working to make the most of our strengths and weaknesses. We just didn't have the personnel for this game and we were badly exposed. Would you trust many of our players to play a quick paced offloading game?  

No I wouldn't trust an offloading game now at all.  I thought there might have been a much more expansive game being coached behind the scenes but I've been very much wrong there.  Deluded on the full.  The team and players have all been honest - Paulie has been honest all along when he warned that the Irish players were holding nothing back.

I worried when I heard him say that because what we'd shown up til then wasn't nearly enough to progress.  And so it has proven to be.  They were honest.  Nothing more only the set-piece 'boring' stuff everyone was moaning about for two years.  It was never going to be enough, Rory.  I was deluded into thinking they had something brooding that had more creativity.

But that's what's wrong.  We shouldn't now look to see what players might have been better than others.  It's more fundamental.  The Provinces play around with Pro12 - the use it for very light training sometimes with no intensity of effort at all and very limited gameplans.  The Provinces aren't helping the International side.  We lack SH physicality levels overall, we lack SH pace, we lack SH wisdom when running the ball.  Backup is only piecemeal and luck tends to be the name of the game when attacking moves work.  

I often wonder why the NH doesn't actually simply look at the SH play.  It's there in vision.  It doesn't take a physics degree to compute how it operates.  It's a winning formula and we still keep to this bunk idea that the Irish players have to play to their strengths.  Virtually every side in this World Cup - every side - look now better at Our kicking/fielding game than we do.  So much for our strengths.  Stolen and improved upon by others.

We don't play hard and train hard on a weekly basis enough.  We don't push the younger players especially to be much more physical, much more abrasive and much more emotionally involved in all Pro12 games.  That's where the hardening up will happen and that's where instincts will sharpen  We can't  expect to go anywhere on this One Game per Tournament stuff we still engage in.  We've proven again that we only have one game per World Cup.  Nothing to do with individual players and everything to do with a system that is still not right through Provinces.

So yes, Joe Schmidt is limited in players available with truly the right credentials to compete at the very top.  But it really is in our hands to seriously create them rather than getting lazy again when the World Cup is long over and shrugging our shoulders that HEC and 6N is enough and we're good enough to compete in it.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Notch wrote:We now need to restructure NH rugby because the gulf in skills and execution is huge. Defenders of our club-biased system have said New Zealand et al. have always been this good, but a few years in the Rugby Championship and look what Argentina are capable of.

We need less club games and less club influence, a test calendar that allows our teams to play together for months at a time, not weeks, and a Six Nations that takes place in warmer weather and on harder grounds.

Otherwise all the NH sides will be seeing a lot more results like this.

I'd rather see results like this that destroy the club game, or relegate it a side show, training competition.

Then you and I have nothing to talk about. French and English club rugby is killing the Northern Hemisphere.

I think we can pick out individual performances that were not up to scratch for Ireland, but they are not responsible for the overall tactics of the defence being misjudged, which Argentina made hay with all day. The defensive line was way too passive and Argentina always seemed to have men over every time they came forward. The outnumbered the wings so often that it resulted in indecisive tackles being easily slipped. Credit to Argentina because they were clinical in those areas, but Ireland should have been pushing up quick to choke the space. It was all so flat-footed for to long.

In fairness to Ireland, the loss of all those first-teamers, Sexton pulling out, a more intense match than Argentina last week and less rest days were telling. Argentina more energetic and looked better rested. So it wasn't ideal preparation.

But this pragmatic rugby brand Ireland have been playing has been shown up by Argentina's approach, and the onus now needs to be getting the players to play the game with confidence in their abilities, not just filling time between set-pieces. As Notch said there are players there and coming through who can play this type of game, and we need to be encouraging that.

I don't think its all down to being in the Rugby Championship. Argentina always were there, or there abouts. The problems they had stemmed from not having any club competition with most of their players playing in Europe.

Their present success is down to their new academy system I believe (started about 6 or 7 years ago).

The NH teams play the SH teams about 6 times a year which is similar to the number of games that Argentina plays them in the Rugby Championship.

Fair play to Argentina. Glorious performance from them.

Deva vu when we conceded a try right at the start. Just like four years ago against Wales. Except this time we conceded a 17 points at the start for good measure. I has just occurred to me Ireland have never won a knockout game ever. And they never will if they start so badly.

On the upside Fitz played well; take note Schmidt. And we did fight back well but ultimately had to expend to much energy doing so.

So the supposedly weakest team in the Rugby Championship has hammered the supposedly best team the 6 Nations.

It's not the game plan that the issue! It's preparing to play at the kind of intensity that was thrown at us today.

Look at the standard of the Pro12 matches this weekend compared to even the lower profile games in this World Cup- look at the standard of the five matches we played in the Six Nations compared to today. We're not going to be able to live with a team that plays like that every four years on a diet of far too many low quality club games and a turgid, slow, kicking dominated Six Nations.

We just got hit by a level of rugby we usually only come up against from the All Blacks once or twice every World Cup cycle. All of our competitions fall short of preparing us to live with that, never mind replicate it.

It's the same for the other Northern Hemisphere teams. And to change it- we need to have a root and branch review of the entire NH calendar and competitive structures.

Marshes wrote:

But this pragmatic rugby brand Ireland have been playing has been shown up by Argentina's approach, and the onus now needs to be getting the players to play the game with confidence in their abilities, not just filling time between set-pieces. As Notch said there are players there and coming through who can play this type of game, and we need to be encouraging that.

This must happen but all Provinces must use a merit based system for choosing players week to week.  And if that risks position then so be it - better a player really trying, really trying to play to the best of his ability than a player playing within himself but happy that he'd mostly be picked and help his side to a 10 - 9 victory on a damp Friday evening in Pro12.

Provincial coaches should be directed by their 'owners' to be less forgiving of strolling, jogging performances from mainstay players.  We need high energy Provinces forcing their players to work all year by choosing players that try.  We don't have the gas for high intensity high value International encounters.  Plain and simply, Pro12 is too pedestrian.

Glasgow take Pro12 seriously and look Scottish rugby is improving!!

Notch wrote:It's not the game plan that the issue! It's preparing to play at the kind of intensity that was thrown at us today.

Look at the standard of the Pro12 matches this weekend compared to even the lower profile games in this World Cup- look at the standard of the five matches we played in the Six Nations compared to today. We're not going to be able to live with a team that plays like that every four years on a diet of far too many low quality club games and a turgid, slow, kicking dominated Six Nations.

We just got hit by a level of rugby we usually only come up against from the All Blacks once or twice every World Cup cycle. All of our competitions fall short of preparing us to live with that, never mind replicate it.

It's the same for the other Northern Hemisphere teams. And to change it- we need to have a root and branch review of the entire NH calendar and competitive structures.

I agree. I've been saying it for years. Just one glance at the European rugby calendar would make any sensible person say that it has to change. But we're not sensible here. We want the great "tradition" of playing the 6 Nations right in the middle of the club season for maximum disruption but also at the time of year when rugby playing conditions are it their worst. We scatter the European Cup (which was supposed to our Super Rugby equivalent) over the whole season. And the English and French clubs have just succeeded in excluding teams from the European Cup from countries they don't deem worthy, while Super Rugby adds an Argentine and Japanese franchise. We're playing playing club games right now during the World Cup. French players spend the break period between 6 Nations matches playing for their clubs. Wales were third seeds because their coach feiced off to coach a Lions tour (why is this still a thing?) in the middle of a RWC cycle.

Meanwhile in the southern hemisphere.... well we know their approach. It's not a secret.

Blimey, well done Argentina

I expected Argentina to win, but not that emphatically. A very. very good side.

Whither Ireland from here?

Notch wrote:It's not the game plan that the issue! It's preparing to play at the kind of intensity that was thrown at us today.

Look at the standard of the Pro12 matches this weekend compared to even the lower profile games in this World Cup- look at the standard of the five matches we played in the Six Nations compared to today. We're not going to be able to live with a team that plays like that every four years on a diet of far too many low quality club games and a turgid, slow, kicking dominated Six Nations.

We just got hit by a level of rugby we usually only come up against from the All Blacks once or twice every World Cup cycle. All of our competitions fall short of preparing us to live with that, never mind replicate it.

It's the same for the other Northern Hemisphere teams. And to change it- we need to have a root and branch review of the entire NH calendar and competitive structures.

One and the same for me issue notch to some extent. The defensive line speed was obviously an issue today, but teams that play within a system of stop-start set-piece based rugby will struggle to deal with a team with the capacity to play at the tempo Argentina can, particularly when it comes to doing it for consecutive weeks. The culture needs to change.

Well, based on our World Cup there's no reason to think we can't win the Six Nations. The rest of the NH didn't cover themselves in glory either- we'll be one of a few hotly tipped sides when it comes around. But the NH as a whole needs to change.

We've been the best team in the NH and we can keep ourselves at that level but being the best team in the NH doesn't mean you're one of the best sides in the world. Winning the Six Nations does not indicate much about whether you can compete with the best.

So it's not so much where to for Ireland, but where to for the Northern Hemisphere.

The reason why the 6Ns is played at that time of the year is because it has no competition from any other sport (like football, Olympics, golf, cricket, GAA etc) at that time of year so it gets good tv money. There is absolutely no way it will be changed from then as it is a very lucrative competition which means that there is more to go around to the smaller nations as World Rugby does not have to subsidise the 6ns countries.

Personally, I like the way the Champs Cup is spread over the whole season (just like the Champions League!)

Worth noting the number of games that players play for their clubs:

Conrad Smith - av 15 per season
Julian Savea - av 15 per season
McCaw - av 10 per season
Brad Thorn (when with Crusaders av. 10 per season).

Notch wrote:So it's not so much where to for Ireland, but where to for the Northern Hemisphere.

Indeed. It's very much a 'Top 4' and the rest now.

Maybe expanding the Rugby Championship should stop now...

Well done Argentina, watched it in a pub in Barcelona and the Argie fans were all gents.

I think Schmidt is a smart man and has to see that we need to completely change our game around to something akin to his Leinster days - ie very similar to the type of rugby Argentina played today. I think he should get a full RWC cycle to do it, and sacrifice a few 6nations.

Congratulations Argentina! Fully deserved the win with more skill and passion than Ireland.

I don't feel too despondent because objectively a top eight place is where Ireland should realistically be aiming for and they achieved that. The difference today was that Ireland only had one back (Fitzgerald) who looked remotely dangerous. Everyone else including Murphy and Madigan were impotent, and as O'Driscoll mentioned afterwards they missed Payne massively. Argentina obviously targeted Ireland's lack of pace in the backline and exploited it ruthlessly.

There are some players we have that are very capable of playing in the way we require to compete with the SH consistently, it's getting this culture change to them before the flair is beat out of them. Henshaw, Henderson, Zebo, McGrath in the squad have that ability and others coming through like Olding, McCloskey, Hanrahan and Ringrose can go that way too. With another world cup cycle now done, lads retiring, it's the opportunity to look at where the squad can be improved, and where the IRFU and the provinces could be further facilitating that

We cannot attack like the southern teams do. We had a good set piece. We were competitive enough at the breakdown. But it wasn't enough; we were outclassed. The question is are Ireland poor in attack because of the gameplan, or is the gameplan put in place to mitigate the fact that Ireland are poor in attack?

We have to try a more expansive game. Looked easy when Argentina did it anyway. Can't be that hard.

For the first time in history I was wrong, twice. Fitzgerald isn't average, he's above average . Argentina are a lot better than I've given them credit for, that was quite some performance by the Puma's.

You need to have players in the middle of the park who can distribute the ball. Madigan certainly isn't the 10 to do it. That doesn't matter as much if you have a good distributing 12. Henshaw has many skills but his distribution as an international 12 is below average. Therefore you see Ireland trying to bypass that with loops and some overly complicated switches in the middle of the park.

I haven't seen enough of McCloskey so can't pass comment on that side of his game. Olding at Ulster may be a possibility but with two serious knee injuries has he actually got a long term rugby future? Is Fitzgerald a possibility? If you want to play the sort of game some of you are suggesting the current lineup I don't think is capable of doing it.

We also really need to look at our wingers. Kearney and Zebo haven't done anything to suggest that they are really up to the job, though Zebo has potential if he irons out fundamental technical flaws. Trimble is 29/30. Bowe 30/31. Earls hopefully will stay fit enough to be a solution on one wing.

This playing more high intensity matches argument is problematic. Unless the other Celtic and Italian teams do the same then nothing will change. So what do we do? Go back to interprovincial series?

I'm surprised at some of the Irish posters, if you get lucky and avoid New Zealand, Australia or South Africa in the quarters you want to be jumping for joy, and to get through.  Ireland should really of taken Argentina out today.

It could be argued that Argentina are THE form side in this RWC after giving NZ a game for
50 minutes .
They have improved game by game no longer the 10 man Rugby side have had wins
versus both Australia and SA recently. The SF is by no means easy for any of the last 4 teams.
NZ players would expect to play normal year 15 Super matches,15 Test matches plus maybe
a couple of ITM matches.
On average they would expect 6-8 weeks away from Rugby per year. Argentina at full
strength [seldom during 4 N`s]are a match for any side[maybe NZ excluded yet]
It has been a pleasure to see the NH sides perform all of them perhaps ,[France excluded
they only seem fit enough for about 60 minutes.]
The injuries toll has been horrendous well done all of you

Shifty wrote:I'm surprised at some of the Irish posters, if you get lucky and avoid New Zealand, Australia or South Africa in the quarters you want to be jumping for joy, and to get through.  Ireland should really of taken Argentina out today.

They should have had the ability to inject more intensity into their attempts and much more knowhow in defence, but the word' should' in terms of winning probably disrespects Argentina, in that they played to win from the start and dumped us on our asses. Mostly teams play badly when the opposition force them to.

The sad thing is that the WC will be quickly forgotten by England, Ireland, Wales, Scotland, France and Italy. And they'll all too easily and readily judge their quality in comparison to each other. That's the sad thing. We applaud mediocrity too much between World Cups and then virtually always pay a price.

Seems to be same old, same old from Ireland. New coach enjoys good start, expectations increase, looks stale by WC and ends in failure. Public turn against coach. Team stagnates. Cycle is repeated.

I don't think anyone is going to be turning against Schmidt tbh. Nor do I think that our immediate future is filled with doom and gloom like it was after 2007 and 2011. I think we can win the Six Nations and we'd be completely crazy to get rid of our coach who is doing a very good job. I think our defensive system was exposed, but Les Kiss is moving on so we'll be announcing a new defence coach soon anyway. Thats an area we need to review. Most teams are a lot more aggressive than us in terms of getting off the line.

The sad thing is that the WC will be quickly forgotten by England, Ireland, Wales, Scotland, France and Italy. And they'll all too easily and readily judge their quality in comparison to each other. That's the sad thing. We applaud mediocrity too much between World Cups and then virtually always pay a price.

Too true!

catchweight wrote:Seems to be same old, same old from Ireland. New coach enjoys good start, expectations increase, looks stale by WC and ends in failure. Public turn against coach. Team stagnates. Cycle is repeated.

I don't think that's true. Not everyone is turning against the coach. I think Schmidt is a great coach who has achieved a lot with the players he has at his disposal. I don't think we looked stale at all. How anyone can say that after having watched us play v France, I don't know. I know some disagree, but Ireland were knackered after the France game. We were fighting our way back into this game after a nightmare of a start, but we had nothing left in the tank in the final quarter. We can't do two massive games in a row, it seems. Not many sides can.

It's not the same old. It's a marked improvement, although there is obviously room for further improvement.

Munchkin wrote:

catchweight wrote:Seems to be same old, same old from Ireland. New coach enjoys good start, expectations increase, looks stale by WC and ends in failure. Public turn against coach. Team stagnates. Cycle is repeated.

I don't think that's true. Not everyone is turning against the coach. I think Schmidt is a great coach who has achieved a lot with the players he has at his disposal. I don't think we looked stale at all. How anyone can say that after having watched us play v France, I don't know. I know some disagree, but Ireland were knackered after the France game. We were fighting our way back into the game after a nightmare of a start, but we had nothing left in the tank in the final quarter. We can't do two massive games in a row, it seems. Not many sides can.

It's not the same old. It's a marked improvement, although there is obviously room for improvement.

I agree with everything there except that conclusion, Munch. Scotland have had a handful of games where they've had to man up and keep dogging it out. And they have. Australia have had a number of tight or high energy games against good opposition. Wales kept hitting hard despite all their injuries. We played one good game against real opposition - played rubbish against Italy and were lacking any self belief against Argentina. Even in the 6N this year.... that last game against Italy was the only one with real fire in the belly. It's the kind of game that has to be the norm not the exception

Am in general agreement with most of the comments here. But there are a few points that need to be given a bit more emphasis.

We lost that game three times over. Not once.

Firstly, yes, we have clearly fallen into the NH rugby vortex more than we had realised. The doubters were proven right so that is a bit of a kick in the teeth. We thought we might be the outlier among the NH sides... and that we might have a few gears and tricks that others didn't have... but we weren't and we didn't. And in that sense we lost the game in a big strategic sense before a ball had been kicked. Argentina played rugby to be proud of and have shown it in every match they've played - no up and downs for them.

But, a bit like Munchkin, I still say we could have won that game if we had performed to OUR best. It wasn't all about Argentina's superiority. Whatever the style... We didn't. That start was a gut-wrenching return to the poor performances of the past. Ireland looked like a rabbit caught in the headlights in the first 10-15 mins. Just like in the bad old days once again. No professional outfit should be caught that cold in one of the biggest games of their careers. Unfortunately it is a somewhat familiar feeling if you're Irish at a WC.

Finally, and I can't believe I'm the one making this point, Madigan in the end did NOT prove his place. His kicking was really woeful in all three areas. And he failed to settle the team around him. 90% of his kick-offs got us nowhere near competing. The up and unders were way off and seemed to be out of sync with the chasers. And, worst of all, his place kicking crumbled at the biggest moment. When he missed that 23-20 kick the match seemed to turn for him and for us. He looked like it was in his head and then he followed it up with a terrible kick out on the full that further compounded it. I'm a big Madigan fan... but he mucked this one up. Once that composure was lost... then the team collapsed because psychologically and physically they looked like they were spent.

I agree we need to look at playing more positive passing and running rugby. But I do think that that was only part of what happened to today - not all of it. Ireland could have been in the semi if they had played to the best of their abilities. They were only capable of doing that for maybe 20-25 mins today.

As for Argentina, I'll be supporting them all the way from here. Fantastic support. Fantastic rugby and a real lesson in how to play with no fear.

Munchkin wrote:

catchweight wrote:Seems to be same old, same old from Ireland. New coach enjoys good start, expectations increase, looks stale by WC and ends in failure. Public turn against coach. Team stagnates. Cycle is repeated.

I don't think that's true. Not everyone is turning against the coach. I think Schmidt is a great coach who has achieved a lot with the players he has at his disposal. I don't think we looked stale at all. How anyone can say that after having watched us play v France, I don't know. I know some disagree, but Ireland were knackered after the France game. We were fighting our way back into the game after a nightmare of a start, but we had nothing left in the tank in the final quarter. We can't do two massive games in a row, it seems. Not many sides can.

It's not the same old. It's a marked improvement, although there is obviously room for further improvement.

If Kidney or EOS had the same points deficit to Argentina that Schmidt's team did today, they would be slaughtered.
At the least, hopefully we won't have to hear from BOD about the lack of a gameplan against Wales at the last world cup and this 'In Joe We Trust' crap.

Schmidt will only get Ireland so far if he insists on picking players who seems to have only blind faith in him. Well, I'm pretty sure they have seen the light now. It will be interesting to see if he loses the dressing room after this.

Sin é wrote:
If Kidney or EOS had the same points deficit to Argentina that Schmidt's team did today, they would be slaughtered.
At the least, hopefully we won't have to hear from BOD about the lack of a gameplan against Wales at the last world cup and this 'In Joe We Trust' crap.

Schmidt will only get Ireland so far if he insists on picking players who seems to have only blind faith in him. Well, I'm pretty sure they have seen the light now. It will be interesting to see if he loses the dressing room after this.

From a man who posts absolute drivel nearly every time he gets near a computer, this post sets a new standard in drivel. Bitter, provincial, over the top and laughably out of touch with reality at the end.

In Joe we trust............



Let's have a team full of rebels that don't want to obey orders for the next Six Nations, it being so much more important to the Irish and being traditional and money-making and all that stuff.

Nos na Gaoithe wrote:
Finally, and I can't believe I'm the one making this point, Madigan in the end did NOT prove his place. His kicking was really woeful in all three areas. And he failed to settle the team around him. 90% of his kick-offs got us nowhere near competing. The up and unders were way off and seemed to be out of sync with the chasers. And, worst of all, his place kicking crumbled at the biggest moment. When he missed that 23-20 kick the match seemed to turn for him and for us. He looked like it was in his head and then he followed it up with a terrible kick out on the full that further compounded it. I'm a big Madigan fan... but he mucked this one up. Once that composure was lost... then the team collapsed because psychologically and physically they looked like they were spent.

I'd seriously question how the Ireland management have managed Madigan (& Jackson). The only player who gets smoke blowed up their ass in the entire squad is Sexton. Ireland need their general cowpat. I don't think he is that good (which maybe down to various concussions he has got in the last year or so) and must be very difficult for anyone else to come in.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:
If Kidney or EOS had the same points deficit to Argentina that Schmidt's team did today, they would be slaughtered.
At the least, hopefully we won't have to hear from BOD about the lack of a gameplan against Wales at the last world cup and this 'In Joe We Trust' crap.

Schmidt will only get Ireland so far if he insists on picking players who seems to have only blind faith in him. Well, I'm pretty sure they have seen the light now. It will be interesting to see if he loses the dressing room after this.

From a man who posts absolute drivel nearly every time he gets near a computer, this post sets a new standard in drivel. Bitter, provincial, over the top and laughably out of touch with reality at the end.

Poor personal attack - and you are meant to be a mod!

Your provincial animus and chip on the shoulder deserves to be called for what it is every now and again.