Ireland 2016 Squad

First topic message reminder :

So what would you like to see for the 6 nations and end of season tour of South Africa? Who would you like brought in and left out? Les Kiss and POC are gone, the only definites..


Players I think should be brought in to the squad or considered:
Olding - Utility back
McCloskey - center
Garry Ringrose - center
Marmion - scrum half
Luke McGrath - scrum half
Dave O'Callaghan - blindside
Sherry - hooker
Josh Van Der Flier - openside
Dan Leavy - backrow
Jack Conan - 8
Jack O'Donoghue - 8
Cj Stander - 8
Ross Moloney - lock
Marty Moore - tighthead
Matt Healy - winger
Cathal Marsh  - outhalf
Andrew Trimble - winger

Some of the best young (except Trimble) players in Ireland to consider.

rodders wrote:

I agree with all that (except the bit about me being harsh of course). The point is O'Mahoney isn't a stereotypical 6, therefore if you select him it puts certain responsibilities on the other back 5 players to compensate.

Here just in case you think I'm one for picking on the Munstermen, what about Donners at Worchestor? There's life in that auld dog yet!

Just as Payne is not a stereotypical 13 rodders? (sorry, I had to )

I don't think you are picking on Munstermen, just think that you may be harsh on what POM brings. I do see him as a very good 6 myself and feel that he is the best option Ireland have when fit and in form.

eirebilly wrote:

Just as Payne is not a stereotypical 13 rodders? (sorry, I had to )

Well hes not a stereotypical "Irish" 13 as he can run and pass at the same time

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Just as Payne is not a stereotypical 13 rodders? (sorry, I had to )

Well hes not a stereotypical "Irish" 13 as he can run and pass at the same time

Yeah BOD was pretty average wasn't he

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:POM's fairly low work rate? Not really ever heard anyone say that POM has a low work rate, he is one of the players that is all over the field. Very surprised by that comment rodders. 

POMS stats are ridiculously low compared to other international back rows (he effects about a 3rd of the tackles of our other back rows (plus Best) and maybe a 5th of someone like Robshaw, Haskell Dusitoir, Lydiate - high volume players).

Now in part that is the way he plays, he stand off the rucks and waits until he can be effective and reads this very well, so this doesn't tell the full story but he does put pressure on his teammates to take up the slack to allow him to influence games.  

No I don't see Schmidt dropping Heaslip for Stander - but he should imo.

POM is one of the main men in slowing down opposition ball by working his ass off at breakdowns. Ireland play a high attritional game and the players must have a high workrate. His main defensive responisbility is defending the wide channels because he is athletic enough to do it well. When up against teams who go wide alot (like Australia) his tackle count is much higher than it is against teams who have a narrower attack, if you want to check those stats do. Argentina were not too disappointed he was missing.

Retire the captaincy. It's best for all.

Failing that, POM when fit.  I'm not convinced we have another player who can take a game by the neck the way he did the France WC game when it looked like we were about to be derailed.

Rumors are it will be Rory Best, with POM being groomed to take over in time for the next RWC.

Joe obviously has twigged that CJ can do all POMs work for him so it should balance everything out

eirebilly wrote:

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Just as Payne is not a stereotypical 13 rodders? (sorry, I had to )

Well hes not a stereotypical "Irish" 13 as he can run and pass at the same time

Yeah BOD was pretty average wasn't he

Ah yeah but BOD only ever passed to other Leinster players, which only required a short passing game as they were all hanging off his coat tails at the time.

rodders wrote:Rumors are it will be Rory Best, with POM being groomed to take over in time for the next RWC.

Joe obviously has twigged that CJ can do all POMs work for him so it should balance everything out

That seems pretty sensible

rodders wrote:Rumors are it will be Rory Best, with POM being groomed to take over in time for the next RWC.

Joe obviously has twigged that CJ can do all POMs work for him so it should balance everything out

Heaslip getting a fair bit of a kicking over the last few days!

Heaslip has been getting a fair bit of kicking from some quarters for years.  He wouldn't be my first choice as captain, given those available, but I feel like a lot of the criticism leveled at him is personality driven.

Engine#4 wrote:Heaslip has been getting a fair bit of kicking from some quarters for years.  He wouldn't be my first choice as captain, given those available, but I feel like a lot of the criticism leveled at him is personality driven.

Of course it is personally driven. He just isn't liked.

Sin é wrote:

Engine#4 wrote:Heaslip has been getting a fair bit of kicking from some quarters for years.  He wouldn't be my first choice as captain, given those available, but I feel like a lot of the criticism leveled at him is personality driven.

Of course it is personally driven. He just isn't liked.

It isn't personal, I just prefer picking South African and Kiwi players to Irish ones where there is an option.

I don't care about personal stuff. Heaslip is a good player. I think Best is a better choice for Captain, but that's no slight on Heaslip.

Notch wrote:I don't care about personal stuff. Heaslip is a good player. I think Best is a better choice for Captain, but that's no slight on Heaslip.

From the outside I'd add that when Heaslip was last Captain he seemed disinterested and less than inspiring. When he's good he's very good but he has had long spells when he hasn't.

I never really considered Best as captain myself and he would be a good one but I just prefer POM as he has captained at all grades and levels. Not sure of Best's prior captaining experience?

Ulster?

At all grades and levels or just Ulster?

Also Ireland.

Obviously O'Mahony is out of the running in the short term because he's injured. Long term he might be Captain, but we still need someone else until he gets back from injury.

And also Lions

He was Captain at club level too, and I believe at underage level, but yeah- captaining Ulster, Ireland and the British and Irish Lions isn't a bad amount of experience to have...

Don't see the need for picking a captain with an eye on the World Cup already. Especially since Joe isn't even contracted until then.

Id also go with Best for the moment and see what the team looks like in a year from now.

I was unaware that Best captained the Lions and also that he captained at underage levels hence the question mark... Anyways, I would not be against him captaining Ireland as I do believe that he is a leader on the pitch and does so by example.

Finally some good news on the injury front- Jared Payne has been added to Ulsters European squad, should be back for the Six Nations.

Notch wrote:Finally some good news on the injury front- Jared Payne has been added to Ulsters European squad, should be back for the Six Nations.

I hope he gets plenty of game time so he validates any selections for the 6N to stop the haters

Pete330v2 wrote:

Notch wrote:Finally some good news on the injury front- Jared Payne has been added to Ulsters European squad, should be back for the Six Nations.

I hope he gets plenty of game time so he validates any selections for the 6N to stop the haters

The big question for me is do Ulster need Payne at 13. For me with McCloskey and Marshall in the centre Ulster would be much better served having Payne at 15.

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

Notch wrote:Finally some good news on the injury front- Jared Payne has been added to Ulsters European squad, should be back for the Six Nations.

I hope he gets plenty of game time so he validates any selections for the 6N to stop the haters

The big question for me is do Ulster need Payne at 13. For me with McCloskey and Marshall in the centre Ulster would be much better served having Payne at 15.

I agree but the IRFU says no.
That being said McCloskey and Marshall are in need of some R&R so this could be a timely return. Now we just need Olding to pop up fit and well

Pete330v2 wrote:

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

Notch wrote:Finally some good news on the injury front- Jared Payne has been added to Ulsters European squad, should be back for the Six Nations.

I hope he gets plenty of game time so he validates any selections for the 6N to stop the haters

The big question for me is do Ulster need Payne at 13. For me with McCloskey and Marshall in the centre Ulster would be much better served having Payne at 15.

I agree but the IRFU says no.
That being said McCloskey and Marshall are in need of some R&R so this could be a timely return. Now we just need Olding to pop up fit and well

Whats your Ulster Centre pairing if all are fit.

Personally i would love to see payne at 15 for Ireland. Would add much more to the team than Kearney at the moment.

Well right now the centre partnership is McCloskey and Marshall, and I think its a good partnership. I wouldn't break it up EXCEPT- they haven't had a break in weeks due to the injuries. They are knackered. So there is a need for rotation in the centres week to week. As we saw against Munster, doesn't matter how good your first XV is, they will eventually run out of gas if they are flogged.

I think Payne is a better 13 than Luke Marshall, no doubt. Luke Marshall combines so well with Paddy Jackson though. Those two have a great understanding, so I can see Luke Marshall D'Arcying his way into the team due to the way he brings out the best in another player. No disrespect to D'Arcy or Marshall- it's the best team you want to see, not the best fifteen individuals. Payne could also play at fullback, due to the fact that we haven't been able to rotate there either. Ludik needs a break too. Essentially he isn't first choice in any position right now, having been injured, but he's coming into a side which is desperate for some fresh legs in the back line so if he's passed fit he will definitely play in the next few weeks somewhere or other.

I don't think we need to worry about whose first choice for Ulster until after the Six Nations, it's more a case of let's get fifteen players who are not fatigued out on the pitch and try and get 10 points in 3 games by hook or by crook. The squad has been really stretched by injuries, hence why we have a second-choice back line heading to Oyonnax for a must-win game...

I don't think it matters to Ireland where Paybe plays that much either. They'll be happy he gets some game time and match fitness. He isn't guaranteed a start for Ireland if he only has a few games back, given there is no form there to speak of- it would be fair enough if they decide he needs more game time for Ulster first. But having any of the injured players back in the selection mix can only be good for the coaches.

I agree Notch

Regardless of what people think of Jared Payne or whoever, isn't it great to see so many good options available to us in the centres when it looked like we may have struggled to replace BOD and D'Arcy. The best thing is that each option offers something different as well, so Schmidt will have plenty of tinkering to do.

In the modern game it is also vital to have a squad rather than just a first team. Things are certainly looking optimistic at centre, with a few players putting their hand up to play in either position.

Great to see Paddy Jackson have a great 2nd half against Oynnax today. I always questioned if his kicking was as bad as made out to be only to be informed that it was and it would keep him out of the Irish team. After today's game, I think there might be some humble pie consumed.

Again I say that I do not see his kicking as a huge weakness and on current form, is ahead of Sexton for Irish selection...

Yup Jackson really stepped up to the plate alright, I was shouting "give it to Pienaar"! - great kick.

McCloskey not only has to start for Ireland, they need to build the whole back line around him he is so good. Always crosses the gain line but has incredible feet and hands too to go with his freakish strength - Oynnax couldn't deal with him at all so hope Joe was watching.

Kyle McCall is a great find too at loose head - he and McGrath are some way ahead of Healy on form.

Leinster played some nice stuff at the Ospreys - Reids try in particular was beaut and DK in good form.

What about Munster though - that was shocking. Disgraceful performance from a lot of players - bar Stander, O'Donnell and Sherry the rest of the side just capitulated.

Is Joe too conservative to let loose the young guns during the coming 6 nations? Will he stick with the same old guard that served him last season?

I say lets have a few of the young lads added to the pot. McCloskey and Reid in the centre anyone? Kyle McCall to join the Irish camp anyone?

Anyone?

Pete330v2 wrote:Is Joe too conservative to let loose the young guns during the coming 6 nations? Will he stick with the same old guard that served him last season?

I say lets have a few of the young lads added to the pot. McCloskey and Reid in the centre anyone? Kyle McCall to join the Irish camp anyone?

Anyone?

I dont think so. he did bring through alot of younger players at Leinster, granted there is much more scope to do this at club level. I would like to see some changes in personal but i dont think we need wholesale changes in the ireland team.

Personally i would love to see McCloskey at 12 and Henshaw at 13. McCloskey looked great yesterday. i think the back 3 is up for grabs, but has been for the last 2 years anyway. pack is an interesting one. cant see too many changes there. 3 needs to be looked at, 1 has to go to McGrath, 2 Best, second row will be toner plus another, Ryan if Fit.

Time will tell what joe does though

Pete330v2 wrote:Is Joe too conservative to let loose the young guns during the coming 6 nations? Will he stick with the same old guard that served him last season?

I say lets have a few of the young lads added to the pot. McCloskey and Reid in the centre anyone? Kyle McCall to join the Irish camp anyone?

Anyone?

I don't think its a case of conservatism but he won't pick guys who aren't familiar with his systems - if he's including guys in camps that's a good sign he's planning to use them at some point.

I don't think he'll change much from the RWC side but with the injuries I think McCloskey definitely is close to getting a chance but Joe might prefer Fitzgerald in the 6N (although I hope not).

Its only a matter of time before McCloskey is starting but the 6N might be too soon.

There's definitely opportunities at lock and backrow too.

Zebo is in dire form so with Jones retired might Joe consider Henshaw as an option at 15? Might he have been looking at Gilroy in the 15 jersey too?

rodders wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Is Joe too conservative to let loose the young guns during the coming 6 nations? Will he stick with the same old guard that served him last season?

I say lets have a few of the young lads added to the pot. McCloskey and Reid in the centre anyone? Kyle McCall to join the Irish camp anyone?

Anyone?

I don't think its a case of conservatism but he won't pick guys who aren't familiar with his systems - if he's including guys in camps that's a good sign he's planning to use them at some point.

I don't think he'll change much from the RWC side but with the injuries I think McCloskey definitely is close to getting a chance but Joe might prefer Fitzgerald in the 6N (although I hope not).

Its only a matter of time before McCloskey is starting but the 6N might be too soon.  

There's definitely opportunities at lock and backrow too.

Zebo is in dire form so with Jones retired might Joe consider Henshaw as an option at 15? Might he have been looking at Gilroy in the 15 jersey too?

Or better still, Payne at 15, Henshaw at 13, McCloskey at 12..............Trimble at 14, Fitz/Earls at 11?????

Wouldn't pick Payne at 15 - Henshaw has been there all season and playing well.

Payne doesn't have the legs to play in the back 3 anymore imo. Nearly does Kearney mind you....

Zebo has time to find form but right now I would not touch him with a barge pole.

I would pick the following :

15 Henshaw (only because he has been playing well there even if I prefer him at 13)
14 Trimble, simply the best Irish winger
11 Earls
09 Murray (no real other option)
10 Jackson, on form an the best Irish 10 right now
12 McCloskey, why not he has been in amazing form
13 Marshall, solid and dependable

Schmidt will not go this way but its a winning backline in my opinion.

Not too shabby billser.

I think it has a nice balance and familiarity. Certainly physical enough to counter Wales' physicality.

It'd be a nice backline alright but sadly probably only our mutual pipe dream. Luke Marshall has made a nice return to form as well perhaps off the back of what Stuart McCloskey offers at 12 but still a fine return to form. Trimbs is still out and out the best winger Ireland has and has to be at 14, there's no competition there. the 11 shirt would be up for grabs with Earls leading the charge.

I nominate Billy to take over squad selection for Joe

That would have went over from 65m! Never thought Paddy had the range. If ever there was an argument for Top quality NIQs to help develop players (and get the team results) its Pienaar.

From the weekend games who has made progress and could/should be in Ireland panel and who has dropped back in the reckoning.

Working backward in time. For Connacht, Healy has made huge progress and probably has more gas than ant other Irish player. Thought O'Halloran was very good, Marmion cemented his position as no 2 to Murray at SH, Dillane looks a longer term prospect but. might need to curb some of his youthful aggression - thought he was a bit lucky not to get a YC for a no arms clear out but he will learn. And Henshaw to come back too - but where for Ireland - 13 outside McCloskey or 15 allowing for. McCloskey-Marshall midfield

Munster however had a nightmare and I'd say Zebo isn't going to be in Joe's thinking any time soon after a shocking display v Stade. Hard to see many more than CJ, TOD and Murray and maybe Earls in green soon - rest were very poor.

After the first half v Oyonnax you'd have written off the entire Ulster team but 40 minutes later all changed and Gilroy, Scholes, Marshall, McCloskey, Jackson, McCall, Best, Diack (when he moved to second row) all played really well. With Trimble, Payne, Hendo and Olding still to come back, it all looks very good oop north

Leinster have improved out of all recognition in past few weeks. joe will still play RK at 15 although his play right now doesn't warrant it. Likewise Sexton will be starting 10 although PJ is the form 10 right now. Thought DK put the daverage tag to rest on Friday but he'd still be down the pecking order for me. Luke McG makes progress although still think will Have Reddan higher up the ladder for a while.

Pack mostly playing well. Ruddock ,VDF, SOB, Heaslip in back row going well, McCarthy has taken me by surprise by his play, Toner still great in line out but should be doing more around the field, young Moloney a nice looking prospect. In front row, Jack McG is as good a LH as there is in the game right now, plenty of options at TH between Ross, Moore and Furlong

For the 6N, I think we should be cautiously optimistic. We could and should win our three home games, France away are beatable and have appointed a coach who judging by Toulouse in recent seasons is way past his sell-by date. England at twickers theReally tough one and hard to see us winning there against an Eddie Jones coached England.

If I was a betting man (and I am) I'd be putting my money on another three-way tie between us, England and Wales - once again points difference deciding the 6N

If Sexton returns to form then I would have zero issues in selecting him but if he does not and Jackson continues his form then I will be fuming if Sexton is selected ahead of him.

Payne (expecting a Notch and Rory backlash for this) will have trouble ousting Marshall out of 13 for Ulster let alone starting there for Ireland. Schmidt simply has to invest in the youth and future of Ireland in the centres and that is not Payne.

If Marmion continues to perform the Murray will be nervous as well. If he doesn't get in form then I would also be tempted to start Marmion.

CJ Stander has also surely put himself into selection ahead of Heaslip, the guy is a monster and pretty much the only Munster player who showed heart against Stade on Saturday.

As someone mentioned somewhere recently, if the IRFU is paying Sexton 700k a year he'll be playing - full stop.

I don't see Schmidt changing much from the RWC but with the injuries there are definitely opportunities for players.

eirebilly wrote:...Payne (expecting a Notch and Rory backlash for this) will have trouble ousting Marshall out of 13 for Ulster let alone starting there for Ireland. Schmidt simply has to invest in the youth and future of Ireland in the centres and that is not Payne...

Looked like Marshall might have to retire after so many concussions in the not too distant past, so nice to see him commanding a place in the Ulster side again

brennomac wrote:From the weekend games who has made progress and could/should be in Ireland panel and who has dropped back in the reckoning.

Working backward in time. For Connacht, Healy has made huge progress and probably has more gas than ant other Irish player. Thought O'Halloran was very good, Marmion cemented his position as no 2 to Murray at SH, Dillane looks a longer term prospect but. might need to curb some of his youthful aggression - thought he was a bit lucky not to get a YC for a no arms clear out but he will learn. And Henshaw to come back too - but where for Ireland - 13 outside McCloskey or 15 allowing for. McCloskey-Marshall midfield

Munster however had a nightmare and I'd say Zebo isn't going to be in Joe's thinking any time soon after a shocking display v Stade.  Hard to see many more than CJ, TOD and Murray and maybe Earls in green soon - rest were very poor.

After the first half v Oyonnax you'd have written off the entire Ulster team but 40 minutes later all changed and Gilroy, Scholes, Marshall, McCloskey, Jackson, McCall, Best, Diack (when he moved to second row) all played really well.  With Trimble, Payne, Hendo and Olding still to come back, it all looks very good oop north

Leinster have improved out of all recognition in past few weeks. joe will still play RK at 15 although his play right now doesn't warrant it.  Likewise Sexton will be starting 10 although PJ is the form 10 right now. Thought DK put the daverage tag to rest on Friday but he'd still be down the pecking order for me.  Luke McG makes progress although still think will Have Reddan higher up the ladder for a while.

Pack mostly playing well.  Ruddock ,VDF, SOB, Heaslip in back row going well, McCarthy has taken me by surprise by his play, Toner still great in line out but should be doing more around the field, young Moloney a nice looking prospect. In front row, Jack McG is as good a LH as there is in the game right now, plenty of options at TH between Ross, Moore and Furlong

For the 6N, I think we should be cautiously optimistic.  We could and should win our three home games, France away are beatable and have appointed a coach who judging by Toulouse in recent seasons is way past his sell-by date. England at twickers theReally tough one and hard to see us winning there against an Eddie Jones coached England.

If I was a betting man (and I am) I'd be putting my money on another three-way tie between us, England and Wales - once again points difference deciding the 6N

All this is pretty much spot on. Who would your 1st and 2nd string be after the weekend?

eirebilly wrote:Payne (expecting a Notch and Rory backlash for this) will have trouble ousting Marshall out of 13 for Ulster let alone starting there for Ireland.

Why are you expecting a backlash when I have said the exact same thing multiple times?

toml wrote:

eirebilly wrote:...Payne (expecting a Notch and Rory backlash for this) will have trouble ousting Marshall out of 13 for Ulster let alone starting there for Ireland. Schmidt simply has to invest in the youth and future of Ireland in the centres and that is not Payne...

Looked like Marshall might have to retire after so many concussions in the not too distant past, so nice to see him commanding a place in the Ulster side again

it is and he is a quality player. Ulster really do have no issues in the centres that's for sure with Cave, Olding, McCloskey, Marshall and Payne. Think they should share them with the other provinces