Pakistan vs England 2nd Test

by VTR Thu 22 Oct 2015, 7:57 am

First topic message reminder :

Here's a thread for the 2nd Test which has just got underway

Teams:

Pakistan: Mohammed Hafeez, Shan Masood, Shoaib Malik, Younis Khan, Misbah-ul-Haq*, Asad Shafiq, Sarfraz Ahmed†, Wahab Riaz, Yasir Shah, Zulfiqar Babar, Imran Khan

England: AN Cook*, MM Ali, IR Bell, JE Root, JM Bairstow, BA Stokes, JC Buttler†, AU Rashid, SCJ Broad, MA Wood, JM Anderson

by guildfordbat Sun 25 Oct 2015, 8:44 am

alfie wrote:To continue...
I wonder if Bell has the second innings to save his career ? England do stay loyal to their established players (not that this is always a bad thing) ; but he must be testing patience , and a heavy defeat might force their hand. Taylor you'd think must come in , and bat at three. So then it is down to choosing two of Bell Bairstow or Buttler at 5 and 7 (or 6 if you want to shuffle). I would be surprised to see two top order changes so doubt Hales will feature now.
I do agree with Craig that Bairstow may not be a long term keeper ; and indeed moving him in and out of that position may not really be altogether fair to him either ; but winning the next match is paramount right now , so if that means he takes the gloves in Sharjah , so be it. Buttler may yet play an innings in the second knock here - but he seems down on confidence so I will be a little surprised if he does. At the same time I have more regard for Bairstow's ability than many on here : I remember his efforts against a strong SA attack back in 2012 ; and I have a feeling he has been a little unlucky with being popped in and out of the team for one reason or another without ever getting a sustained run ...if Bell is indeed on the way out then I think he probably represents the most likely number five on the immediate radar , and is worth persevering with at least for the tour of SA.
Next to certain that Hales will be tried as opener in SA , as England won't be picking two spinners. This in itself will serve to settle the order a little...but of course we have no guarantee he will fare any better than the procession of post-Strauss candidates who have failed to impress as partner for Cook.

Summary : bit like the spin bowling issue really ; you can only do what you can with what you've got...

Good assessment and spot on summary, Alfie. As you stated in the first part of your post and as I've also said, I'll hold off picking my side for the third Test until the second is done. However, it's understandable and pretty natural for us all to be raising doubts about some. We seem agreed on the suspects.

As to the spin bowling, Willis said last night that the effect of playing both Rashid and Ali was ''like playing two leg-spinners''. That's something I've been banging on about for a while. Willis doubted them as a combination emphasising that whilst both could take wickets, they lack reliability and are too expensive. He didn't regard either as being sufficiently experienced in their particular spin bowling art at this stage. Again, though, there was no answer from Willis other than appearing to play only one and give more of the work to the seamers.

by CaledonianCraig Sun 25 Oct 2015, 9:42 am

Not only trying to bat for a day and a half to save the test but skipper Cook obviously toiling with a groin strain just to make things worse. This test is only going one way. I suppose all that remains to be see is if the under pressure batsmen in the England line-up can show they merit a place in the side.

Ali out for another nothing score. England 9 for 1.

by guildfordbat Sun 25 Oct 2015, 9:48 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:Not only trying to bat for a day and a half to save the test but skipper Cook obviously toiling with a back injury just to make things worse. This test is only going one way. I suppose all that remains to be see is if the under pressure batsmen in the England line-up can show they merit a place in the side.

Makes you wonder what sort of state Cook will be in and how fit for the third Test if he bats for, say, a day here.

Mind you, he might not get the chance if the others follow Ali - gone already!

by VTR Sun 25 Oct 2015, 9:48 am

Bit harsh on Mooen being chucked in to open, no surprise to see him out early. Why don't we just open with Cook and Root and then declare once they are out?

by alfie Sun 25 Oct 2015, 9:49 am

Oh dear...very poor from Moeen...that displayed a frazzled mind.

Let us see what Bell can do now (and hope Cook's injury problem doesn't worsen : god knows where England would be without him !)

by guildfordbat Sun 25 Oct 2015, 9:51 am

Craig - I recall you being keen in recent times for Rashid to be given an opportunity at Test level. Any thoughts at this relatively early stage?

by CaledonianCraig Sun 25 Oct 2015, 9:59 am

guildfordbat wrote:Craig - I recall you being keen in recent times for Rashid to be given an opportunity at Test level. Any thoughts at this relatively early stage?

Well I do recall many on here said he had a habit of throwing in too many loose balls and I have noticed that definitely. I would say it is a bit early to throw him to the wolves so to speak but at least he has weighed in with as many wickets as Ali has got. It is also to his credit that, after the worst debut figures in test cricket in the first test (I think they were) in the first innings he showed good temperament to bounce back with a 5 wicket haul in the second innings to propel England into an unlikely match-winning position. Still very raw though and Ali just offers (at present) a tad more control with the ball and more with the bat but that could change.

by guildfordbat Sun 25 Oct 2015, 10:06 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:Craig - I recall you being keen in recent times for Rashid to be given an opportunity at Test level. Any thoughts at this relatively early stage?

Well I do recall many on here said he had a habit of throwing in too many loose balls and I have noticed that definitely. I would say it is a bit early to throw him to the wolves so to speak but at least he has weighed in with as many wickets as Ali has got. It is also to his credit that, after the worst debut figures in test cricket in the first test (I think they were) in the first innings he showed good temperament to bounce back with a 5 wicket haul in the second innings to propel England into an unlikely match-winning position. Still very raw though and Ali just offers (at present) a tad more control with the ball and more with the bat but that could change.

Hi Craig - I think that's very fair and accurate. Also, he hasn't been helped by our batting in this Test (although he did play his own dreadful part there).

My concern is particularly with him and Ali as a combo. Of the two, Ali is my preferred choice although I'm not sure the selectors will agree if they decide it's a choice between them for the third Test.

by CaledonianCraig Sun 25 Oct 2015, 10:13 am

guildfordbat wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:Craig - I recall you being keen in recent times for Rashid to be given an opportunity at Test level. Any thoughts at this relatively early stage?

Well I do recall many on here said he had a habit of throwing in too many loose balls and I have noticed that definitely. I would say it is a bit early to throw him to the wolves so to speak but at least he has weighed in with as many wickets as Ali has got. It is also to his credit that, after the worst debut figures in test cricket in the first test (I think they were) in the first innings he showed good temperament to bounce back with a 5 wicket haul in the second innings to propel England into an unlikely match-winning position. Still very raw though and Ali just offers (at present) a tad more control with the ball and more with the bat but that could change.

Hi Craig - I think that's very fair and accurate. Also, he hasn't been helped by our batting in this Test (although he did play his own dreadful part there).

My concern is particularly with him and Ali as a combo. Of the two, Ali is my preferred choice although I'm not sure the selectors will agree if they decide it's a choice between them for the third Test.

To be honest though I don't think we will be seeing Ali and Rashid as a combination until England return to the sub-continent. I would say it is likely they will both play in the Third Test as both have weighed in with their share of wickets. Looking further ahead though to South Africa and you would have to say England will only go with one spinner in the starting line-up and at the moment you'd have to say that will be Ali. The only way I see that changing is if Rashid hits a massive score in this innings and takes way more wickets than Ali in the 3rd Test and outscores him.

Cook top edges and is out for 10. England 19 for 2 and who knows this could be over in four days.

by alfie Sun 25 Oct 2015, 10:13 am

VTR wrote:Ballance is a good shout. Actually looked the part in Tests but was dropped in the Ashes when he was doing nothing more wrong than Bell or Lyth who played the whole series

I think there is a place for a Bairstow type player, but not with Stokes and Buttler in the same order

I did mention that I expect Ballance to get another chance . But he looked a walking wicket against Australia , and bringing him back immediately didn't strike me as a good idea. Let him make some necessary technical adjustments and work his way back - otherwise we run the risk of installing a player who can make big runs against teams who lack serious pace bowling strength but is next to useless when he comes up against the stronger opponents : Australia , SA. And NZ .

The point about Bairstow along with Stokes and Buttler is an interesting one. I agree it looks hairy when they lose a few early wickets ; but on the other hand , given a good start it certainly enables them to attack with some freedom...perhaps it would seem better if Buttler hadn't got into such a run of outs with the bat ? And I note that Bairstow did play a solid innings at Trent Bridge , albeit with less pressure than normal given the Australian mini-innings that preceded it.
I don't think the UAE gives great guidance for the majority of Tests that England play. We wil have a better idea of where the batting order is going - or not - after the SA tour.

by **ShahenshahG** Sun 25 Oct 2015, 10:15 am

Cook gone

by alfie Sun 25 Oct 2015, 10:20 am

Mixed feelings seeing Cook get out ...

Of course it's a blow to England's slim hopes of batting out for a draw ; but to be honest I'm not sure an injured Cook could have survived for the sort of time we might normally hope ; and batting too long might well have exacerbated the problem and put his 3rd Test chances in peril.
If that sounds as if I've abandoned this one as lost ...well yes. I hope Bell , Root etc battle it out ; but I have had 0-1 score line marked in since tea yesterday. I'm mainly looking to work out how to come back in the 3rd match and draw the series - surely Cook can win a toss sometime ?

by KP_fan Sun 25 Oct 2015, 10:24 am

after a superb show of gut and fight in T1, wheels have come off in the second tests...
you can't ride two batsmen all the time.....

and you can't play a test match with a "pinch opener".....and thereby lost the solid contributions coming from No.8 that made a difference in about 3 tests vs Aus and NZ

they should have brought compton......
seems Cook didn't want Hales at all.......and from the start it seemed like a " you can take horse to water but not make him drink"...between selectors and Cook on Hales

by guildfordbat Sun 25 Oct 2015, 10:39 am

guildfordbat wrote:
Olly wrote:A good day for England that. I really like the balance of t he side, even if Moeen is slightly shoe horned I'm at opener. Having six options to bowl without really harming the batting too bad is something to be celebrated.

Big day in the career of Jonny Bairstow tomorrow. With Bell struggling, a big score tomorrow almost cements Taylor not coming in for him. A failure and the pressure is on him like bell

Olly - it's good to have bowling options and especially in these conditions. Miserable old git that I am though, I'll save my celebrations until the six have taken twenty wickets and we've gone on to win this Test.

Fully agree about Bairstow tomorrow.

Ok, folks, that's it from me for this Test as I'm now away with Mrs Bat for a few days. Probably just as well for me and everyone that I won't be around for the final celebrations! Rolling Eyes

I never like it in televised football matches when the man of the match decision is made before the final whistle is blown. However, sometimes needs must - I'll therefore give an early shout for Wahab Riaz on the grounds that his 9 over spell on the third morning really decided the outcome.

by alfie Sun 25 Oct 2015, 10:48 am

Enjoy your break , guildford...

Fair call re Wahab...though it will probably go to a batsman Smile

by alfie Sun 25 Oct 2015, 10:58 am

KP_fan wrote:after a superb show of gut and fight in T1, wheels have come off in the second tests...
you can't ride two batsmen all the time.....

and you can't play a test match with a "pinch opener".....and thereby lost the solid contributions coming from No.8 that made a difference in about 3 tests vs Aus and NZ

they should have brought compton......
seems Cook didn't want Hales at all.......and from the start it seemed like a " you can take horse to water but not make him drink"...between selectors and Cook on Hales

Compton seems to have become something of a superstar since he's been out of the side ...strange I don't remember him being quite that effective when he was actually playing Smile

To be fair , I think they might have given him a bit longer ; but I suspect his time has come and gone. Speculation of Cook not wanting Hales is just that .Speculation. And with scant evidence. Ali as opener enabled England to play six bowlers - which all but won them the first Test. Hasn't worked here ; but that doesn't prove it was necessarily the wrong call - for all we know Hales might have done no better.

Easy to criticism every selection when a team does badly : we will never know if the alternatives really would have been any better. For what it's worth I'd have preferred to play Hales , keep Moeen at eight and play one less seamer ...but had they done so I fear they'd have got nowhere near Pakistan in the first Test , and would likely have been chasing 500 in this one.
So while you will surely enjoy dancing on the England grave , KPf , don't expect me to join you...

by CaledonianCraig Sun 25 Oct 2015, 11:00 am

Enjoy your time away and I can't argue with your man of the match award. However, as alfie says it would come as a surprise to me if it wasn't Younis Khan who got that accolade given the milestones he passed here with sizeable contributions - 9000 Test match runs and 1000 Test match runs V England.

by alfie Sun 25 Oct 2015, 11:51 am

Bell and Root moving fairly soundly along...as I watch all this I find myself wondering just what happened yesterday - in the session I didn't see. How the devil could England collapse like that on this pitch ?
For all the hype , Yasir looks good , but something less than a magician ; and there really isn't anything much in this pitch for the bowlers of any type. I understand Wahab bowled a great spell , but I'm still a bit shocked as to how England could fold so meekly - it is at odds with the way they've played most of the time in this series.
Guess that old issue of lack of experience comes in again : England have lost Tests to Sri Lanka and West Indies over the last couple of years basically through one bad session. Suppose in fairness Pakistan did much the same a week or so back but were lucky enough to be saved by the fading light...

by CaledonianCraig Sun 25 Oct 2015, 11:54 am

alfie wrote:Bell and Root moving fairly soundly along...as I watch all this I find myself wondering just what happened yesterday - in the session I didn't see. How the devil could England collapse like that on this pitch ?
For all the hype , Yasir looks good , but something less than a magician ; and there really isn't anything much in this pitch for the bowlers of any type. I understand Wahab bowled a great spell , but I'm still a bit shocked as to how England could fold so meekly - it is at odds with the way they've played most of the time in this series.
Guess that old issue of lack of experience comes in again : England have lost Tests to Sri Lanka and West Indies over the last couple of years basically through one bad session. Suppose in fairness Pakistan did much the same a week or so back but were lucky enough to be saved by the fading light...

Before judging alfie I'd wait until Root is dismissed as I suspect when that happens we'll see a similar timid collapse following.

by Duty281 Sun 25 Oct 2015, 12:37 pm

Just put a tenner on England at 64/1.

There is going to be one game, perhaps now, perhaps in the near-future, when Joe Root asserts his status as world-class and makes the whole world take note.

Perhaps this could be the greatest knock of them all, in the greatest win of them all?

600 years since Agincourt today. Time for England's few, England's happy few, to conjure a truly magnificent comeback.

by alfie Sun 25 Oct 2015, 12:45 pm

Ah yes Craig ...I am certainly not overconfident of the later order. However they did play pretty well in the first match ; and I'm hoping they will put up much more resistance tomorrow - though not expecting it to be enough to save the game.

I guess a lot depends on how long this pair can bat : the longer Pakistan has to work to get at five six and seven the more chance they have of settling in and prolonging the battle.
At the very least keeping Pakistan in the field as long as possible might have some impact on the third match.

by KP_fan Sun 25 Oct 2015, 12:50 pm

Eng will be chasing less that 350 tomm
might win Wink

by Duty281 Sun 25 Oct 2015, 12:53 pm

Bell makes a good start and is out without converting it to a big score. (Shock!)

by alfie Sun 25 Oct 2015, 12:54 pm

Duty281 wrote:Just put a tenner on England at 64/1.

There is going to be one game, perhaps now, perhaps in the near-future, when Joe Root asserts his status as world-class and makes the whole world take note.

Perhaps this could be the greatest knock of them all, in the greatest win of them all?

600 years since Agincourt today. Time for England's few, England's happy few, to conjure a truly magnificent comeback.

You love your Agincourt references , don't you , Duty ? If you collect at 64/1 , you deserve it !

Reckon the target is out of reach anyway just on time ; but I'd settle for Root batting to the close tomorrow and somehow persuading some others to stay with him...

I think most of the world knows about Joe Root already ; but a nice match saving double hundred here would certainly boost his reputation further.
Going to need it too as Bell departs to a good review of a slightly unlucky glove touch...

by KP_fan Sun 25 Oct 2015, 1:01 pm

well I spoke too soon and jinxed 'em ...sorry

3 down and bell misses an opportunity to play an inning of substance

Root's wicket will open flood gates I reckon like the first inning

by alfie Sun 25 Oct 2015, 1:02 pm

Will a good 46 be enough to keep Bell in the side ? Probably will ...though it is questionable whether it should.
In fairness he played well today , from a tough position : but as his detractors will point out , he once again failed to really cash in - and it is a fair while now since he did so.
I don't think he is a number three , by the way. For all his talent , he is far better suited to coming in at five : must be mental , since he has made big scores coming in at three down for very little , as well as when there were serious runs on the board at his arrival. But I can't think of many times he's scored "big" from three.

by alfie Sun 25 Oct 2015, 1:26 pm

Just did some research on Bell at three . He averages a lot less 38.81 , to 42.94 overall.

However the damning thing is , as I suspected , just two centuries in 46 innings , both v India in 2011. And few other scores in the 80+ area...and most of them from quite a few years back.

Guess the issue is : is there a number three fit for purpose so Bell can go back where he belongs ? Because if his career is to continue , I don't think it can be at three - if England want to beat strong opponents , that is.

by Duty281 Sun 25 Oct 2015, 1:27 pm

Brilliant by Root and Bairstow to see it through till stumps.

Excellent effort.

by alfie Sun 25 Oct 2015, 1:29 pm

130/3 at the close. Resolute defence from Root and Bairstow...but they probably need to bat at least half the day tomorrow...

Good luck Fingers Crossed

by CaledonianCraig Sun 25 Oct 2015, 1:51 pm

I can't see it happening with the super brittle middle order. Not only is the middle order out of form but it is not crammed with players renowned for playing long and diligent innings which is what is needed here. Bairstow, Buttler, Stokes and Broad are all players who are not in the business of batting time even if they were in form so I forsee Pakistan wrapping up the win midway through the final day's play with England having around 250 runs.

by VTR Sun 25 Oct 2015, 3:48 pm

That innings from Bell is the most Ian Bell innings you could ever imagine. Looks promising then gets out for a reasonable but hardly game affecting score

by CaledonianCraig Sun 25 Oct 2015, 5:00 pm

VTR wrote:That innings from Bell is the most Ian Bell innings you could ever imagine. Looks promising then gets out for a reasonable but hardly game affecting score

Yes and the master of brinkmanship pulls another score out of the hat when calls mount for him to be axed. Now look forward to scores of ten and under for the next three or four tests and then another score around 50 to keep him in the side when pressure grows on him again.

by kingraf Sun 25 Oct 2015, 7:24 pm

England had an official "visit" (it's funny how many levels of interaction there are before a complaint is a complaint) with the fourth umpire regarding Wahab Riaz stepping the ball. Think it's rather ordinary from them to do that when there's clearly no evidence anywhere of that having happened. This isn't football, Jose Mourinho tactics aren't needed

by **ShahenshahG** Mon 26 Oct 2015, 7:09 am

Root gone

by **ShahenshahG** Mon 26 Oct 2015, 7:12 am

Bairstow follows

by **ShahenshahG** Mon 26 Oct 2015, 7:14 am

Root to slip, stands his ground but clean catch off of Babar and Bairstow is Googlied playing it like Panesar.

by **ShahenshahG** Mon 26 Oct 2015, 7:14 am

off Yasir

by alfie Mon 26 Oct 2015, 8:03 am

Not folding up without a fight ...but three wickets this morning mean the end can't be too far away.
Just trying to dead bat the spinners away on a fifth day pitch always looks like an accident waiting to happen ; but of course nobody wants to be seen as reckless. Didn't see the first hour or so ; but I wonder if they might have played a little more positively ? Not that you can really put pressure back on the bowler in this situation ; but perhaps the batsmen feel a bit more confident when playing more normally...
I liked the Bell - Root partnership , as they scored at nearly every opportunity...but of course it is getting harder as the pitch wears...

Be good to take this to around tea. Rashid has played a couple of nice strokes , I'm pleased to see.

Lunch 187/6

by VTR Mon 26 Oct 2015, 8:23 am

I'd expect one more wicket and the end will come very quickly.

Need to look to the next Test and give ourselves chance of a win. Winning the toss would be nice! Taylor simply has to come in, probably for Buttler with Bairstow taking the gloves.

Another change might be Hales coming in for one of the spinners. I personally don't think Hales will get any runs but there you go - he is in the squad so is an option.

Jordan could well come in for Wood - not a fan of his but don't want Wood on long-term sick!

I think Bell has just about clung on to his place yet again!

by VTR Mon 26 Oct 2015, 8:41 am

Some talk on TMS of playing 5 seamers in the next test. Would love to see it just for KP Fan's reaction!

by alfie Mon 26 Oct 2015, 8:55 am

Five seamers ? Wow...

I reckon your first idea , Taylor for Buttler , makes the most sense , VTR. Would also allow Bell to move down to five , where he'd be happier.

Jordan for Wood if the latter is fatigued - though he seemed lively enough the other day - would aid the close catching. Might not Plunkett be more likely to take wickets though ?

Talking of wickets , there goes Stokes ...

by kingraf Mon 26 Oct 2015, 10:10 am

Wahab Riaz is on another level. No pace bowler has a right to be this threatening in such conditions

by VTR Mon 26 Oct 2015, 10:30 am

Good fun this morning but you have to ask where was the application and enterprise in the first innings when the game was live? Or is it a case of being able to play when all hope is gone so there's no real pressure

by alfie Mon 26 Oct 2015, 10:58 am

Good effort to make it to tea. Rashid has played well...indeed a pity he didn't show similar application in the first innings.
Broad , Wood ...all battling it out. Pakistan still has at least twenty five to thirty overs so the end is still coming , but I am pleased they're being made to work for it.

When it gets like this , you always think "what if (Bell , Root , Bairstow , etc) had batted another hour" etc
But in truth sides generally get bowled out eventually in these situations ; either early wickets and late resistance or a slow working through the top bats followed by a quickly collapsing tail...all comes to the same thing in the end...five sessions is just too long to survive unless someone plays a true marathon .

I wouldn't give up hope of winning the third round and drawing the series , as there is more resilience being shown this time than in 2012. England were very close to winning the first match , after all.

by VTR Mon 26 Oct 2015, 11:23 am

Fair point alfie about the route to defeat. I would look at the first innings really. Once Root was out every new batsman came out playing all kinds of shots, this innings has shown a few of them the way to a more productive innings

If England could have got up to Pakistan's score in the first innings, they could have pressured the third innings or at worse have less time to survive for a draw

by alfie Mon 26 Oct 2015, 11:23 am

Fifty for Rashid clap

Postponing the inevitable , but still full of merit.

by alfie Mon 26 Oct 2015, 11:30 am

VTR wrote:Fair point alfie about the route to defeat. I would look at the first innings really. Once Root was out every new batsman came out playing all kinds of shots, this innings has shown a few of them the way to a more productive innings

If England could have got up to Pakistan's score in the first innings, they could have pressured the third innings or at worse have less time to survive for a draw

Yeah I'd agree with all that. Since I missed the first half of that wretched third day , I am reliant on what I've heard ; apparently Wahab bowled really well - but surely more care and patience would have been a better tactic ...

by alfie Mon 26 Oct 2015, 11:33 am

So another half hour ticks by...
We'll have Duty on soon to announce 24 overs left to make another 193 Smile

by dummy_half Mon 26 Oct 2015, 11:37 am

The third morning was the killer - bat one more session and add another 80 or so and the draw would have been very much 'on', but looking to bat basically 5 sessions on a turning wicket against a good leggie was surely too much to ask for.

One positive for England is that in the main (this innings) the batsmen have been got out by good bowling and fielding rather than poor batting. Being got out by a Jaffa (e.g. Buttler) is forgivable in the context of this match situation, but some of the batting on Saturday rather less so.

Oh, and well done Adil Rashid on the 50. Now if only he could develop to be an all-round contributor in more than 1 innings in 4 per match...

by CaledonianCraig Mon 26 Oct 2015, 11:46 am

It goes without saying that if England had batted like this from the middle order down in the first innings then they would not have been in such a perilous position. Tie these runs onto the first innings and they would have been less than a hundred behind Pakistan, another fifty overs taken out of the match and the draw would have been the very likely result.

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