England Squad for the 6N 2016

First topic message reminder :

Well, the dust is settling on our early exit, time to concentrate on the next disappointment.

We obviously have no idea who the Head Coach or team will be at this current point, but we can take a stab at the potential squad going into the 6N.

2 games into the AP season, who's looking impressive? Who can come in under the radar and steal a spot? Are any of the disappointing WC squad going to grab the bull by the horns and actually impress! Who should be captain? What could or starting 23 be? Do we starting blooding for 2019 now?

little_badger wrote:George captained Sarries on Friday night did ok, he's not 5ft.

Youngs was MOTM against Quins, but I get nervous when he plays for England. I know he's a lion and everything but I just don't think he's solid enough in all the areas to be a starting hooker for an international side.

I think quite a few agree with you. George was impressive, I was a little surprised with Youngs motm but he's a good AP hooker but we need better.

What about Henry Thomas?

He's a solid TH and I think he came in for some harsh treatment from the England coaching set up. He was on the peripherals, but was then totally dropped. I think he's a better scrummager than Brookes, and fitter too.

To be honest Eddie I think its going to be fascinating over the next few months to see how players go.

Theres so many who really could come through.

It'll be a real interesting one to see who is the manager. Will it be Lancaster? Will it be someone else?

Has Lancaster learned a lesson?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

little_badger wrote:George captained Sarries on Friday night did ok, he's not 5ft.

Youngs was MOTM against Quins, but I get nervous when he plays for England. I know he's a lion and everything but I just don't think he's solid enough in all the areas to be a starting hooker for an international side.

I think quite a few agree with you. George was impressive, I was a little surprised with Youngs motm but he's a good AP hooker but we need better.

Agree with others that Tom Youngs sometimes gets too much criticism and can be good. Unfortunately, I still think having him between two tallish (6' 2 or so) props leaves the front row unbalanced, and against top international opponents our props find themselves turned in too easily. A bigger hooker and everyone will stay straighter and allow the power to come through from the 2nd row better to boot. Ideally, we'll also have a hooker that can actually strike for the ball and get it back to the number 8 quickly

LondonTiger wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Any one think Tom Croft will ever get another England cap?

Probably not, bUt I thought he looked really busy yesterday against your boys.


PS, did I see you selecting Sam Harrison?

Yea I like him as he's a bit of a novelty, being a 9 who can pass well off both hands and run. He's a good prospect.

He's possibly got the best pass in the AP from what I've seen of Harrison. At 25 though he's probably not getting much better, if only we could morph him and Simpson.....

I think we all need to chillax about age a little.

25 is not too old to learn new things and get better! Players with good coaches can progress right up to the very end of their career.

A good 25 year old could still see two world cups.

Plus it means you've been around the block a little, you can talk to older players on your terms.
You're unlikely to be star struck.

A player in their mid 20's has probably seen the best and the worst of their sport, has been hailed as brilliant and lambasted as a waste of oxygen.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:He's possibly got the best pass in the AP from what I've seen of Harrison. At 25 though he's probably not getting much better, if only we could morph him and Simpson.....

Simpson is a guy who gets a bit of a raw deal now IMO. His basics were poor when he first broke through at Wasps but due to how eye catching his running was he drew a lot of attention. I feel that this increased scrutiny early on meant that his basics, whilst admittedly poor, were more criticised than they would have been for others. If were are honest I think most young SHs still need to hone their core skills when first breaking through.

From the start of last season I felt his pass and box kicking were massively improved however and only kept getting better throughout the season.

I think he's now at a good enough standard that he deserves a shot in the EPS.

In the pack England need more grit, grunt and power to supply incessant pressure and intensity without error throughout 80 minutes. Easily said. I would definitely not throw out the whole team and start casting around but there were some who just weren't good enough. T.Youngs too lightweight and an iffy thrower, Dan Cole just doesn't punch his weight and looks slow, Mako just not powerful enough. Robshaw and Wood were ineffective for large parts of the games they played. That's half the pack that needs to be replaced. They had their chance and just weren't good enough. More power, more accuracy, more intensity under extreme pressure required. The coaches must acknowledge that their players didn't perform and look elsewhere. Status qou will give more failure on the big stage.

king_carlos wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:He's possibly got the best pass in the AP from what I've seen of Harrison. At 25 though he's probably not getting much better, if only we could morph him and Simpson.....

Simpson is a guy who gets a bit of a raw deal now IMO. His basics were poor when he first broke through at Wasps but due to how eye catching his running was he drew a lot of attention. I feel that this increased scrutiny early on meant that his basics, whilst admittedly poor, were more criticised than they would have been for others. If were are honest I think most young SHs still need to hone their core skills when first breaking through.

From the start of last season I felt his pass and box kicking were massively improved however and only kept getting better throughout the season.

I think he's now at a good enough standard that he deserves a shot in the EPS.

+1

Although he's over 21 so his time is gone

The following forwards need to find form before the 6ns or should probably not be in the mix.

Cole, Corbs, Lawes, Webber (personally I'd say bye to Webber).

Some players just raise there game for int but these guys have really been out of form for a while for England.

Or is it an issue with the England set up?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I echo your thoughts on Brookes KC.

Even as a Falcons fan he's had about 5 games in 2 seasons where he's impressed from the start. He's just that good, I'd really worry if he had to start.

So this is a prop who Cockerill, Richards and now West have signed, and who convinced Rowntree to make him second choice for England? You guys must be seeing something all those experienced forwards coaches are missing I guess.

It will be interesting to see what happens to Robshaw, particularly if SL stays. There's obviously a strong case for Fraser at 7 and one of Ewers, Burgess or Clifford (who has bulked up and who I reckon will now focus on 6) at blindside. But will Robshaw and Wood (and even Haskell) really be discarded? We'll see I guess.

One good thing about JJ being injured - Devoto will now get plenty of game time in the centres. Hopefully the extra game time will help him develop into a international class player.

Hartley.

Yes we missed Hartley.

DaveM wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I echo your thoughts on Brookes KC.

Even as a Falcons fan he's had about 5 games in 2 seasons where he's impressed from the start. He's just that good, I'd really worry if he had to start.

So this is a prop who Cockerill, Richards and now West have signed, and who convinced Rowntree to make him second choice for England? You guys must be seeing something all those experienced forwards coaches are missing I guess

Cockers signed him on talent when still 20 years old. He subsequently suffered an injury and rather than spend that lay-off training to come back better he spent it becoming overweight.

He was then resigned by Deano and Falcons who hammered him back into shape during 2013/14 before he showed up well but fairly inconsistently last season. Given Deano likes to rotate his players he rarely put together a long string of starts and often struggled to maintain his performances, particularly at set piece, for much of the match after starting.

For England we have seen both the good and bad of Brookes IMO. On the positive we have seen an occasionally destructive scrummager who has altered our scrum from the bench when it has been struggling. We have also seen a strong ball carrier who throws his significant weight around.

On the negative we have also seen his inconsistency with him often looking innocuous and his performance dropping off rapidly with time spent on the pitch. This latter issue has been even more evident at International level IMO.

As for West signing him - we will see what happens! Saints have developed some excellent front row forwards in recent years so hopefully he joins that production line and sorts out his consistency issues. Personally, I'm yet to be convinced though.

doctor_grey wrote:Hartley.

I think most are in agreement that if he plays well for Saints he is good enough compared to the other options to get another shot doc.

I also think many of us feel that George deserves a run in the shirt ahead of him however.

He should also be nowhere near a leadership role within the squad given his poor record of discipline IMO.

My top 2 in each position for 2016 with a newly constituted pack, and hopefully, a new impressive coaching team too. Captain - Dylan Hartley. The only nailed on 1st team player capable of being the captain.

15. Watson / Brown (Daly to be given an opportunity in due course)
14. Joseph / Yarde (Is JJ England's answer to Adam Ashley-Cooper to cover 13 and 14? I'd give Wade a shot too)
13. Tuilagi / Burrell (power and good defence at outside centre and both able to switch to 12)
12. Slade / Farrell (2nd playmakers. Eastmond to be given another chance)
11. May / Nowell
10. Cipriani / Ford (Cipriani to start. Ford to deputise. Farrell could come in with Eastmond at 12)
09. Care / Youngs / Simpson

08. Morgan / Beaumont (Billy V needs to lose weight. Hughes to start competing in June'16)
07. Armitage / Clifford (Clifford to understudy Armitage for the next 2 seasons.)
06. Burgess / Ewers (Croft, Robshaw, Haskell and Wood should all have to fight their way back in)
05. Kitchener / Attwood (Parling, Lawes, Kruis and Slater have to fight their way in)
04. Launchbury / Itoje
03. Brookes / Thomas (Cole and Wilson to take a break and find form at club level)
02. Hartley / George / Cowan-Dickie (Webber and Young to take a break and find form at club level)  
01. Corbisiero / Auterac (Marler and Vunipola need to do the same)

yappysnap wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:He's possibly got the best pass in the AP from what I've seen of Harrison. At 25 though he's probably not getting much better, if only we could morph him and Simpson.....

Simpson is a guy who gets a bit of a raw deal now IMO. His basics were poor when he first broke through at Wasps but due to how eye catching his running was he drew a lot of attention. I feel that this increased scrutiny early on meant that his basics, whilst admittedly poor, were more criticised than they would have been for others. If were are honest I think most young SHs still need to hone their core skills when first breaking through.

From the start of last season I felt his pass and box kicking were massively improved however and only kept getting better throughout the season.

I think he's now at a good enough standard that he deserves a shot in the EPS.

+1

Although he's over 21 so his time is gone

Well he's 27 so screwed!

I personally think Simpson has an awful pass and service. If it wasn't for his pace I think he'd be playing lower level rugby. The amount of times the ball goes to deck or above the 10's head, it's just not good enough. His box kicking has improved though I agree.

king_carlos wrote:

DaveM wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I echo your thoughts on Brookes KC.

Even as a Falcons fan he's had about 5 games in 2 seasons where he's impressed from the start. He's just that good, I'd really worry if he had to start.

So this is a prop who Cockerill, Richards and now West have signed, and who convinced Rowntree to make him second choice for England? You guys must be seeing something all those experienced forwards coaches are missing I guess

Cockers signed him on talent when still 20 years old. He subsequently suffered an injury and rather than spend that lay-off training to come back better he spent it becoming overweight.

He was then resigned by Deano and Falcons who hammered him back into shape during 2013/14 before he showed up well but fairly inconsistently last season. Given Deano likes to rotate his players he rarely put together a long string of starts and often struggled to maintain his performances, particularly at set piece, for much of the match after starting.

For England we have seen both the good and bad of Brookes IMO. On the positive we have seen an occasionally destructive scrummager who has altered our scrum from the bench when it has been struggling. We have also seen a strong ball carrier who throws his significant weight around.

On the negative we have also seen his inconsistency with him often looking innocuous and his performance dropping off rapidly with time spent on the pitch. This latter issue has been even more evident at International level IMO.

As for West signing him - we will see what happens! Saints have developed some excellent front row forwards in recent years so hopefully he joins that production line and sorts out his consistency issues. Personally, I'm yet to be convinced though.

Dave, just because a player has been in the England set-up doesn't mean we can't have an opinion on him. I watched Brookes week in week out and I never seen him have more than a good half of rugby. As I recall I don't think he's ever started for England outside a Ba's match, so in theory has never been tested

He's a very good impact player for 20mins but fatigue kicks in fast. Maybe England see this as his role?

TheDayoftheJackal wrote:

08. Morgan / Beaumont (Billy V needs to lose weight. Hughes to start competing in June'16)

I keep hearing this and im just not sure. He's proved he can play to high intensity for a full game. In fact he played every game in the 6n...?

little_badger wrote:The following forwards need to find form before the 6ns or should probably not be in the mix.

Cole, Corbs, Lawes, Webber (personally I'd say bye to Webber).

Some players just raise there game for int but these guys have really been out of form for a while for England.

Or is it an issue with the England set up?

I agree. Webber needs to just be released from the England set up. Corbs also needs to follow and should only be considered again IF he finds consistency and has adapted to the new laws, which so far he appears to be struggling with.

Cole and Lawes look a shadow of themselves. Is this down to the set up or is this just them.

One theory with Cole is that we've tried to change him in to another flanker. Subsequently he's dropped too much weight and not the same input in the scrum. maybe he needs to bulk back up, focus on his core scrum duties...

little_badger wrote:I am looking at it slightly differently and that is where are we good and where are we lacking. The bits in between are probably ok.

Good:
10 - Ford, Cips, Farrell - In that order, yes controversial but lets use the potentially incredible backline.
Wing/Fullback - Watson, Nowell, Brown - great May pretty good, lots of talent.
Hooker - Hartley, George, Youngs - like to see George get a start
13 - JJ and after that Daly please, Slade also can cover

Lacking:
Backrow: One of Kvesic or Fraser, whoever is in the best form needs to be in the squad and get some game time. I'd like to see Clifford in the wider squad with Ewers.
12: Slade is an option but who else?

I don't think we should dump all the players but I think the following are probably finished, either via a poor world cup, injury or who's younger replacements are better:

Barritt, Wilson, Haskell

Also I don't care how big anyone is, just let's find the best players and try to ignore the size thing for a bit.

I am wondering how much of an option Slade is at inside centre at the moment though.  There seems to be a natural assumption that he will be shifted there, but I am not seeing any evidence of it at the moment. Having had a quick look at where he played last season, I can't see a single league fixture he started at 12 for Exeter.  He spent his whole season switching between 13 and 10. He started at outside centre for Exeter this week too.  

The much trumpeted reason that Barritt was included was that he was our 'defensive organiser',  I wonder how Slade can become this if he doesn't regularly defend from the 12 position for his club.  

If I was the England coach (whoever he is going to be) I would gather all of the potential England inside centres (no matter how young they are) and tell them that the position is up for grabs and that I am looking to pick a long term option.  To that meeting I would invite.

Henry Slade (I know what I just said above...)

Sam Hill
Kyle Eastmond
Ollie Devoto
Tom Stephenson
Harry Sloan
Billy Tweletrees

There is some really exciting young talent there, I hope they are used.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

little_badger wrote:The following forwards need to find form before the 6ns or should probably not be in the mix.

Cole, Corbs, Lawes, Webber (personally I'd say bye to Webber).

Some players just raise there game for int but these guys have really been out of form for a while for England.

Or is it an issue with the England set up?

I agree. Webber needs to just be released from the England set up. Corbs also needs to follow and should only be considered again IF he finds consistency and has adapted to the new laws, which so far he appears to be struggling with.

Cole and Lawes look a shadow of themselves. Is this down to the set up or is this just them.

One theory with Cole is that we've tried to change him in to another flanker. Subsequently he's dropped too much weight and not the same input in the scrum. maybe he needs to bulk back up, focus on his core scrum duties...

Webber has disappointed the hell out of me over the last season. He simply doesn't seem to be up to the mark unfortunately.

I can't explain what has happened to the England scrum, we seemed to have adapted to the new scrum laws really well, but all of a sudden gone really far backwards. It is perplexing!

I agree Driver...I can only see Slade taking over that 10 spot for Exeter.

However.....

Billy Tweletrees

Dear lord he should be nowhere near any England squad ever again.

Twelvetrees is still up there, probably with Slade as the best option for inside centre for me. He's not brilliantly consistent but at the moment still better than those youngsters.

Ah 7.5 I just cant get away with him.

For a guy who was lauded over his handling...the number of mistakes he makes...two on ones he butchers etc.

V the falcons last week he butchered an overlap and had about 3 clear handling errors.

Its just not good enough.

And I'd be going with Slade if possible to start but I'd still have Twelvetrees. The backline just generally looks a bit better balanced with him there. Not sure Burrell is anything more than a battering ram at 12, Barritt is for me very limited and we really need to look beyond that (he's served his purpose), Eastmond just isn't good enough defensively and the rest have a good chance to push this season but at present if picked today I wouldn't have them.

I wouldn't have Barritt in the squad anymore...and Burrell would only be considered as a 13. He actually played well there for England but was poor at 12.

Will Joseph be fit for the 6n?

And whats the crack with Manu? Is he even training again or is he still injured?

Centre is the biggest worry for me at the moment. The rest of the positions we have options

I think Slade could (potentially) be in the Giteau, Carter, Hernandez mould I.e has the skills to cover other positions well. All those guys have played 10 and 12 with good success. If we want him to be a long term option at 12 he does need to play there for Exeter at least a bit. He's a better option than Farrell as he's more of an attacking threat.

Slade and Burrell.

10. Slade
12. Devoto
13. JJ

I'm guessing Joseph won't be fit though. I like Devoto but he's got to establish himself as first choice.

Ford at 10. Slade 12. JJ 13 if fit. If JJ's not fit then player who fits best into the game plan, Daly maybe.

I just think Slade seems to have talent and aptitude, so I would like to see him given a chance either at 12 or 13 depending who else is fit.  

Not at all adverse to Ford/Slade/JJ as above.  Perhaps Devoto and Daly need a bit more time to establish themselves.

Manu if fit and focused is also a possibility. I may also be the odd one out, but Eastmond has talent and was much better last season but was dropped in the AI's.

Burrell gives a bulkier option if required, but would not be my first choice and perhaps should be seen as a 13 only.

Daly is a big worry defensively. I'm not sure if he's ready for the step up yet.

Ill go so far to say if Slade nails the 10 spot for Exeter and shows a nice balance of x-factor skills with genuine game control then I could see leapfrogging Ford at 10.

But i'd need to see him at 10 a lot more.

king_carlos wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Hartley.

I think most are in agreement that if he plays well for Saints he is good enough compared to the other options to get another shot doc.

I also think many of us feel that George deserves a run in the shirt ahead of him however.

He should also be nowhere near a leadership role within the squad given his poor record of discipline IMO.

Agree. Saints finally pulled the captainship from him for this season. They are really pushing him hard to get himself togehter, which he is most of the time. Calum Clark did go thorough the program is and fine. Hartley needs to do the same.

Having said that id like to see Hartley really hit the form of a few years back. He wasn't quite at his peak in the 6n.

I just cant help thinking too many players have not played at their best for a while...and I don't think its just a coincidence with the set up.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Twelvetrees is still up there, probably with Slade as the best option for inside centre for me. He's not brilliantly consistent but at the moment still  better than those youngsters.

I think part of Twelvetrees' problem is that he tries too hard, especially when in a team that is under performing, and by doing so makes mistakes. Surround him with the right players and provide the right platform and he won't have to try as hard thus won't make the mistakes. That goes for the 10s as well.

In Ford and Farrell at 10 and Slade and Twelvetrees at 12 you have the building blocks of a very good, creative axis. But without a platform they can't play and they make mistakes.

Englands priority has to be re-establishing the forward dominance and platform to succeed.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ill go so far to say if Slade nails the 10 spot for Exeter and shows a nice balance of x-factor skills with genuine game control then I could see leapfrogging Ford at 10.

But i'd need to see him at 10 a lot more.

If he isn't in the centres then I'd very happily have him on the bench covering fly half rather than Farrell.

Defensively he is strong enough that I would trust him at 12. He is a strong and fearless tackler and reads the game so well that I don't believe positioning would be an issue for him. Especially for a guy who is used to having crash ball runners thrown at him in the 10 channel and regularly makes them look daft by hitting much harder than you would expect from a guy his size.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Will Joseph be fit for the 6n?

And whats the crack with Manu? Is he even training again or is he still injured?

Centre is the biggest worry for me at the moment. The rest of the positions we have options

I think England have plenty options at centre, even if Joseph and Tuilagi are ruled out.

Without those two I would give a run of games to Slade (12) and Burrell (13) with Ford at 10. I think that has a nice balance to it, with Farrell or Twelvetrees on the bench.

Last I heard Tuilagi was out until December, is that still the case? If so I'm not so sure December and January is enough time to get back up to form considering the length of time he's been out.

Joseph is in the same boat with a 3 month lay off.

Although we have Burrell and Daly as like for like options at 13, I think it is a shame because both Tuilagi and Joseph are a step above.

From the World Cup squad; I'd cut Webber, Haskell, Easter, Wigglesworth and Barritt without a second thought. Not in my team now, wouldn't get picked in 4 years, not worth further consideration for International honours in my opinion.

I would look to play a wide-game with two distributors, and therefore I'll want more mobility in the pack. I'd want a natural 7 in the pack as well. I would also look to borrow a page from Michael Cheika's book and pick "starters" and "finishers" and not just 23 players at random (as Our Stuart seems to do).

I'm not going to pick Armitage, even though I probably would. Not worth the debate.
I'm assuming Manu and Joseph will be ineligible for selection, based on the fact that they won't be fit in time. I'd still select Joseph in the EPS, but then I can use an injury wildcard to call someone up in his place, because our selection policy has to be that political to tick the RFU boxes.

My starting team would be something like:

Mako, Youngs, Brookes, Launchbury, Lawes, Croft, Kvesic, Vunipola.
Youngs, Ford, May, Slade, Daly, Watson, Brown.
Hartley, Marler, Cole, Kruis, Fraser, Care, Cipriani, Nowell.

Load my front row with carriers to take the game to the other team early on, with the players on the bench to come on and shore up the set piece as and when it is required. Can hopefully force some scrum penalties late on.

A mobile middle 4 with plenty of cover on the bench to bring on fresh legs to keep up with the game.

Pace and creativity the order of the day in the backs. Slade and Daly have already played together in the centres before, when we routed the Barbarians last year (Cipriani was at 10 and Wade was on the wing, incidentally). There are again more sensible players on the bench who can change the gameplan and play a more territory based game, with Care offering better distribution, Farrell offering a good tactical kicking option and Nowell having good positioning and counter-attacking ability while also covering 4 positions.

Also in my squad, I'd have George, Itoje, Morgan, Cipriani, Eastmond and Joseph (with Burrell called in as cover - as above). I know I'm allowed a few more than that, so I'd probably get another prop (Mullan?), second row (perhaps someone with a bit more bulk), a third scrum half and another back 3 player (possibly Wade), but I haven't settled on those extra guys.

Mako, Youngs, Brookes, Launchbury, Lawes, Croft, Kvesic, Vunipola.

Do you think that pack is powerful enough Robbo? Either in the scrum or the rucks etc?

That pack looks a bit off

Mako, Youngs, Brookes, Launchbury, Lawes, Croft, Kvesic, Vunipola.
Youngs, Ford, May, Slade, Daly, Watson, Brown.

Seeing real issues with that team Rob.

- Scrum would be hammered. Mako is a poor scrummager, Brookes is a poor starter and Youngs too small. That would be much worse than COle/Marler.

- Croft and Kvesic are too lightweight, we'd be smased around the park.

- Ford, Slade, Daly axis....lightest in world rugby. Daly's defence is pretty poor, he's not ready imo.

All opinions though.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ill go so far to say if Slade nails the 10 spot for Exeter and shows a nice balance of x-factor skills with genuine game control then I could see leapfrogging Ford at 10.

But i'd need to see him at 10 a lot more.

Interesting, Geordie boy. I see it a little differently - if Slade nails down the starting berth as a fly half, then I see him as the footballing 12 which England needs desperately.

A lot depends on fitness and may be form, but assuming JJ and Manu not available:

Marler
Hartley
Cole
Launchbury
Kitchener
Ewers
Fraser
Morgan
Youngs
Ford
May/(Nowell)
Slade
Burrell
Watson
Brown

With the "finishers" Marko, George, Brookes, Lawes, Bill V., Care, Farrell, Nowell.


But players like Slater/Attwood/Itoje/Robshaw/Wood/Mullan/Simpson/Roko under consideration.

But like everything final selection should be down to form, fitness and to an extent experience.  First choice pack is bulkier but some uncapped players, so any transition needs to be handled.