England Squad for the 6N 2016

First topic message reminder :

Well, the dust is settling on our early exit, time to concentrate on the next disappointment.

We obviously have no idea who the Head Coach or team will be at this current point, but we can take a stab at the potential squad going into the 6N.

2 games into the AP season, who's looking impressive? Who can come in under the radar and steal a spot? Are any of the disappointing WC squad going to grab the bull by the horns and actually impress! Who should be captain? What could or starting 23 be? Do we starting blooding for 2019 now?

Don Armand is English qualified and has been Exeter's best player this season, He's a 7 that also plays lock, wouldn't be surprised if Lancaster goes to see him in the squad, especially if we go for a foreign coach.

George Carlin wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ill go so far to say if Slade nails the 10 spot for Exeter and shows a nice balance of x-factor skills with genuine game control then I could see leapfrogging Ford at 10.

But i'd need to see him at 10 a lot more.

Interesting, Geordie boy. I see it a little differently - if Slade nails down the starting berth as a fly half, then I see him as the footballing 12 which England needs desperately.

Problem is this weird recent trend we see with Farrel Jr. and also with Slade that playmakers outside the 10 are playing at 13 not 12.  I would like to see Slade get a lot more game time at 10 for Exe. And then we see Lancaster playing farrell Jr. at 12 in a game. Puts the 'B' in Bizarre.

Our "bulky" pack has been beaten to every breakdown by their Australian, Welsh and even Fijian counterparts this World Cup. They also struggled in the scrum against Australia and Fiji and creaked at the lineout, even with the guru Parling calling the shots in there. The pack offered nothing and needs to change.

If we want to play out wide (and that is where our strength is) we need to pick a pack that complements that ambition. Their set piece play at International level should pick up when they get more game time, in the past they've all been used as subs primarily.

If Mako or Brookes is having an absolute shocker you can yank them after 30 minutes and bring on an experienced International to steady the ship. But Marler and Cole weren't good enough at this World Cup, and that might be down in some part to complacency as well, as they are undisputed first picks. Let's give the competition a proper run and see how they go.

In the backs, it may be defensively weak, but our strong defensive axis of Farrell and Barritt conceded 3 tries against Australia and we scored one ourselves. If both teams score 5 each. If you play defensively and look to kick the majority of your points you leave no margin for error in defence. This game plan didn't work against Wales or Australia. Let's look to attack teams and score tries and give them something to worry about. Once we have that side of the game going we can work on improving our chosen players imdividual defencive skills and understanding of the defensive system.

We don't have complete players, anyone we pick is going to have flaws but we need to pick players that fit our plan and work on improving them. That's where the coaches should come into it.

We were definitely caught between a set of players and playing a different style but Cole is still our strongest tight head for any style we play I think and I find it hard to imagine that come Feb it won't be Hartley and George.

I agree Cole is our strongest tighthead, but is he best for the first 30-50 minutes or the second 30-50 minutes?

My plan would be to keep ball in hand as much as possible in the first half and therefore load my starting team with my carriers. In the second half I could then bring on my stronger scrummaging front row (against their weaker replacements) and my stronger goal kicker if required and look to close a game out by winning penalties and gaining territory and ultimately points.

You could then alternate your starters and finishers depending on how you wanted to start and finish games, but in the first instance I'd be working on this gameplan that revolves around ball retention and picking players who are happy with the ball in their hands.

My fear would be to be dominated in the first half through endless scrum penalties and be facing a huge uphill task. I still think just a few tweaks would do; Kitchener preferably would strengthen our lineout hugely if he has fitness or form and bulkier than Lawes. Fraser, Kvesic at 7 and I'm impressed by Clifford. I'm aware there's a strong case for Ewers or Burgess or Itoje as a really big powerful 6 but the more I think of it the more I like the look of Clifford, Fraser, Vunipola.

I just can't see it Rob.

We need a solid set piece (with Youngs and the locks seemingly the main issue imo). Mako & Brookes are not stronger scrummagers than Cole & Marler. I understand they didn't go well in the WC but we'd have struggled a lot more if those 2 were starting.

"In the backs, it may be defensively weak, but our strong defensive axis of Farrell and Barritt conceded 3 tries against Australia"

We could have conceded 6 with that backline???

Centres need to be defensively sound. I'm not suggesting they're BOD, but at least be able to hold their own on the big stage. I've seen Daly ripped apart by Adam Powell, he slips off tackles for fun.

Again all opinions, but I don't think an all out attacking game would work for us. We're not that talented ball in hand. Even the AB's earn the right to play with powerful guys in the backrow and Conrad Smith is an excellent defensive option at 13 despite his size.

George Carlin wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ill go so far to say if Slade nails the 10 spot for Exeter and shows a nice balance of x-factor skills with genuine game control then I could see leapfrogging Ford at 10.

But i'd need to see him at 10 a lot more.

Interesting, Geordie boy. I see it a little differently - if Slade nails down the starting berth as a fly half, then I see him as the footballing 12 which England needs desperately.

I just think Ford's game management is a work in progress.

Slade reminds me more of a cross between Ford and Farrell. If he shows real game control...and the ability to open it up...then he leapfrogs Ford.

That then allows you to have a look at a bit of a more physical 12...but still a good player - Hill or Stephenson etc...then we can play a more attacking 13 like Joseph and Daly etc etc.

Slade is a strong defender and that takes a lot of onus on having a defensive 12. But you still need a nice balance and mix of power and skill.

robbo277 wrote:Our "bulky" pack has been beaten to every breakdown by their Australian, Welsh and even Fijian counterparts this World Cup. They also struggled in the scrum against Australia and Fiji and creaked at the lineout, even with the guru Parling calling the shots in there. The pack offered nothing and needs to change.

We played:
1 Marler - Probably under 18st for a prop
2 Youngs - Diminutive
3 Cole - Lost weight
4 Lawes - Lightweight
5 Parling - Lightweight
6 Wood - Lightweight.

I don't see that as a bulky pack. I don't really see it as an anything pack. Its "confused" !

We have players who are "mobile" but offer much more grunt.

For me its all down to the tactics and selecting the right players for the job.

robbo277 wrote:I agree Cole is our strongest tighthead, but is he best for the first 30-50 minutes or the second 30-50 minutes?

My plan would be to keep ball in hand as much as possible in the first half and therefore load my starting team with my carriers. In the second half I could then bring on my stronger scrummaging front row (against their weaker replacements) and my stronger goal kicker if required and look to close a game out by winning penalties and gaining territory and ultimately points.

You could then alternate your starters and finishers depending on how you wanted to start and finish games, but in the first instance I'd be working on this gameplan that revolves around ball retention and picking players who are happy with the ball in their hands.

I think the fair discussion about Cole, which also applies to a number of other players in the squad, is whether he was truly match fit after recovering from his injury.  This is my job, and my practice here in America and back home work with pro athletes regularly.  Cole didn't suddenly appear a mediocre player or under weight player, he looked either a shot player or a not fully recovered player.  Morgan, too, looked the same.  There are others.  I am extremely happy players like Brown and george North survived with no apparent difficulties.  

We all know in every country players are rushed back into service as soon as medically cleared.  But are they match fit?  Not on your life.   And at our various levels, we have all done the same.  It is our tough-it-out mentality.  Heck, I bet we have all played with broken fingers, arms, anything.  If there is tape and a magic sponge, life is good.  This is evolving here in America with their pro sports and will evolve in Rugby too.  This is why, I believe, some players who have delivered in the not too distant past, who have been injured, will deliver this year.  As an example, Ben Foden, who received excellent care and recovery, is primed for a great year, and is just now getting back to form after his ACL.

Ford and Farrell both control the game well for their clubs and both failed to do so effectively this world cup. Again with a lot of these player for player decisions it comes down to how we want to play but Ford has consistently been the best fly half in the prem for about a year or so for me. I don't think we can rule out Cipriani being included. We still need a second play maker somewhere for me as well no matter who plays.

7.5 I agree its Ford's shirt to lose.

I was merely saying IF Slade takes the Exeter 10 shirt and shows that ability.

I think genuine game control is something Ford still needs to work on...but hell, hes only a young lad and can learn that.

Robbo, I'm afraid your assessment of the English pack at the RWC I'd some what off. There I'd no way you can consider that a bulky pack. We weighed in at around 890 kg which is considerably less than we usually do, around the 910 kg mark. Wales were around this weight as we're Australia, Fiji were even heavier.

Although weight isn't the only factor at scrum time, it matters that your hooker is considerably smaller than your props, both in height and weight. It meant the opposition tight head could turn into the hooker, leaving Marler on his own. It also means that the opposition hooker and loose head can concentrate on putting pressure on Cole.

Cole and Marler are not bad props, and they are not the first props to become isolated at international level because of a small hooker and certainly won't be the last. Think Vickery fir the lions against SA.

If anything i think England were too guilty of trying to play too wide too early.

Back to basics for me. Set piece first to control territory and possession. Big ball carriers in the pack to tie in the opposition back row, they can't pressure the breakdown if you own the gainline and they are on the back foot.

From that platform you can play wide, you can use the pace on the wings. But you need the right centres to make it happen.

Earn the right to go wide

Potential power front 5 of: Marler, Hartley, ?, Launch, Attwood. Not too sure about the lineout though.

Replacements: George, Mako, Brookes, Kitchener(?)

I'd seriously look at Auterac, Itoje (as a lock)

Very true Geordiefalcon.

jamesandimac that's the problem though - who are the best centres?

Barritt - unfortunately his time has gone
36 - too inconsistent
Burrell - at 13 perhaps but was poor as a 12.
Tuilagi - needs to rediscover some form and keep injury free. Again a 13.
Farrell - should not be played at 12 at international level ever again IMO.
Slade - what's his best position? Think he'll feature but where is the question.
Eastmond - is he big enough?

The likes of Devoto,Hill and Stephenson are outsiders but could feature if they have strong run.

Maybe this might work


9. Youngs
10.Ford
11.Nowell
12.Eastmond
13.Burrell
14.Watson
15.Brown

Eastmond if he can sort himself out defensively could feature at 12 with big ball carriers like Burrell and Manu as 13s.

After his awful performances against NZ, in NZ and in the AI, (yes it was NZ and not Georgia) I can't see Eastmond getting another look in without a huge amount of injuries.

I tend to think Eastmond's ship has sailed.

I'd be more inclined to look at Devoto who possesses a strong all round game and the frame to be a physical option if required.

See this is the problem we have no nailed ons

7.5 names Twelvetrees.
Sgt Suggests Devoto.
Ive suggested Hill / Stephenson

That pretty much sums it up.

Slade !

Devoto, Stephenson and Hill for me currently are all for the future though. Eastmond didn't make it for me so discounted. Slade deserves a go and I think will be ready. For me I'd want that second playmaker role anyway which leaves Twelvetrees. The reason he's discounted by some is that he's inconsistent generally. I'd agree with that in a game situation he generally does something very good and very bad but in an overall run of games I would say the opposite. You generally know he'll give 6 to 7 out of 10; have no genius games or shocking ones. That's why I still mention him, he's the best stop gap for the present.

But that's what I mean...6 people on here could name 6 different players.

You say those 3 are the future...but the current present aren't good enough.

That puts pressure to bring them through.

I don't see the point in using 36 as a stop gap when we could play Slade there or another youngster and give them genuine game time.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I don't see the point in using 36 as a stop gap when we could play Slade there or another youngster and give them genuine game time.

I'd tend to agree with you.

I think Slade might be ready to play here and now. If he gets regular time at 10 for Exeter, I don't think its a stretch to throw him in at 12 for the 6N, many club level 10s have started there for NZ for example.

If Slade is the starter, I'd rather see the likes of Devoto/Hill/Stephenson given time around the squad to build their knowledge. The only problem with that is if Slade gets injured, is it too ballsy to throw one of them in? In which case the argument for a Twelvetrees type grows stronger

And I would personally go with Slade in the 6Ns. I don't think those youngsters would give the same level of performance currently but will in time. Though the 6Ns are still a few months away.

I'd just drop the old guard and let the lads learn together, give them 4 years.

12. Devoto/Slade/Stephenson
13. JJ/Tuiagi/Daly

Well its a balance.

We need to focus on winning the 6n...not focus on the WC in 2019
So in that case pick the best players for NOW.

But if a certain position isn't set in stone...maybe its worth giving the young potential all the gametime.

But considering other positions like the back row etc might be young aswell...how much inexperience do you want.

i think this is an area that Lancaster has screwed up.

Look at McCaw for the AB's. Retires after the WC final...his replacement Sam Cane already has something like 27 caps and is 23 yo.

If we lose Robshaw, Wood and Haskell....who comes in with experience??

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'd just drop the old guard and let the lads learn together, give them 4 years.

12. Devoto/Slade/Stephenson/Hill
13. JJ/Tuiagi/Daly

:Di like it Sgt...

Pooly for Head Coach.....

One of England's biggest issues, not just SL, is bringing in young talent. Part of the reason is it's easy to drop a young guy into a good team with 600 caps of experienced players, even if he has a shocker the team will pull through.

England have wasted far too many caps on average players when they could have been looking for someone who could be world class. England are starting to produce the kind of players that everyone agrees are the future, Slade, Itoje, Nowell etc.

A classic example of England's conservative thinking/bottling it is picking Barritt at 13 over Slade. This is why we can't have nice things.

Hopefully now can pick some young guys who are the future but who are also good enough to win a 6 nations. Because we have to start winning 6 nations, I think our best chance of doing this is with:

Ford, Nowell, Slade, JJ, Watson, Brown

Ford and Farrell as the 10s
Slade and Twelvetrees as the 12s
Joseph and Tuilagi as the 13s

That's my preference moving forward and I think we should stuck with those players injury permitting. If we have injuries at say 12, then we should try to bring in a replacement with a similar skill set rather than just coping and changing the attacking structure every other game. And if that means playing Farrell at 12 because Slade and Twelvetrees are injured then so be it. At least it will give us the same structure as opposed to playing a Barrett or a Burrell in there which would change that.

That's the thing badger...

If we can get some of the players back on form and in the right shape...we have a core of players who are experienced now in various degrees...

Take the pack.

1 Marler
2 Hartley
3 Cole
On form and in the right shape...that's a very strong front row.

4/5 - Launchbury, Lawes, Kruis have been through a WC.
Slater is Tigers captain. Attwood has experience. Symmons if picked won 2 S15's.
Kitchener the only one with no experience or Leadership experience.
Just need to pick the right combo

6 - Robshaw / Wood / Haskell - All offer lots of caps worth of experience.
Burgess is a huge leader (if he stays in RU)
Only Ewers would not be experienced.  
7 - The only spot we would have brand new players.
8 - Billy and Ben are experience now.

Reference the front 5, a lot will go on how certain players can "rediscover" form. I say rediscover as I don't blame them for the issues at set piece.

Ideally I would love to see a front row of Corbisiero, Hartley and Cole, providing all can stay fit and find form. With a bench of Mako, George and Brookes.

Behind them Launchbury has to start at 4, and if you go for Attwood at 5 with Kitchener at 19 you have 3 big men who provide a lot of grunt, not only in the scrum but also around the park in the tight exchanges.

Totally agree James.

But also the combos.

I wouldn't say Marler is a massively destructive scrummager for example. So putting to weaker scrimmaging locks behind him isn't doing him any favours.

Give him Attwood or Slater / Kitchener etc...people with some oomph gives him far better help.

Most current front rows would struggle with Lawes, Parling and Wood at 4/5/6

As for the line out, both Launchbury and Attwood partnered up on that Argentina tour and the line it went well with Wood offering the back row option.

Kitcheners not exactly a slouch at the line out either.

May seen harsh on Lawes, and I really do rate him alongside Launchbury, but I think he needs to put on a bit of weight.

Kitchener runs the Tigers lineout when he plays...even when Parling was there.
Hes big and very mobile.

The reports about management trying to change Attwoods game has made me wonder about giving him another chance in the role he's suited to.

We have options. We just need to get the right balance. Get the tactics right.

EDIT: Im really losing interest in Lawes. He falls in to the same category as Croft for me.

I think we're all agreed more or less on the kind of front 5 selections we want to see. I think we lacked bulk in the second row and that affected our scrummaging, I do partly blame this on having to pick Parling to babysit Youngs. If we pick George that potentially solves that issue and I think George is a good carrier.

So backrow, I'm trying to be reasonable and not do a knee jerk reaction.

6. Robshaw - He has a huge work rate makes so many tackles, but needs to be moved away from 7. I think he's a better 6 than Wood.
7. Fraser - So much potential, so many injuries.
8. Morgan/Vunipola - Standard.

20. Clifford - Covers all 3 positions and is a JWC winning leader

What about Itoje?

GeordieFalcon wrote:What about Itoje?

He was last weeks favourite, he may come round again in the popularity stakes in a week or so - I've detected a 13 day cycle from being the new hero to zero on here

Itoje to lock. I think he'd be like Lawes at 6 Internationally, exploited a bit as he's too big.

Balance is key for the back row. Ideally I would have 2 carriers, at 6 and 8. This would give you 2 props who can pick and go around the fringes, 2 second rowers who can come onto the crash tight and 2 back row carriers for the 10 channel. It gives the scrum half so many more options.


But to do that we need a 7 and hooker with good hands to link it all together with a remit of being a link man, supporting the attacks and winning rucks and leaving the carrying to others.

I do think that is Robshaws biggest issue for England is that he's being asked to do too much. How can an open side be first to a break down when he is jumping in a line out our carrying the ball up our tackling some one is beyond me.

GeordieFalcon wrote:What about Itoje?

I also see him more as a lock long term, I think he could be a great blend of a presence in the loose and a lineout caller as he seems to have a lot of intelligence about him. I'd have him in the squad learning the calls of the new coach......hopefully he can get some experience with Sarries calling the lineout.

If all goes well, I might have him on the bench in some 6ns games and see how he gets on.

Itoje is now listed as 6'5 and 18st 2. Has he already put on quite a bit of weight?? Is that right?

If that's the case he's considerably more ballast than Lawes or Parling etc.

If your picking Attwood, Kennedy and Launchbury in the second row realistically there would only be one slot left between Itoje, Kruis and Lawes. Who would get that slot?

Kennedy?

Lawes would not be in my squad until he found form again and learned how to focus those tackles on some of the forwards aswell.

Sorry Kitchener..... Long day

GeordieFalcon wrote:Itoje is now listed as 6'5 and 18st 2. Has he already put on quite a bit of weight?? Is that right?

If that's the case he's considerably more ballast than Lawes or Parling etc.

If you are going by official stats, that makes him smaller (height and weight) than Lawes or Parling

Id be AMAZED if Parling and Lawes are over 18st.

They certainly don't use it if they are!

Thankfully we have a couple of months and 4 rounds in Europe before the EPS will be named.

There are too many questions around players right now:

Can Hartley find form and keep his cool. Will George withhold the Brits challenge. Can Marler and Cole find any sort of form. Can Mako and Brookes demonstrate they are capable of lasting more than 30 minutes at international pace. Can Slater and Kitchener get fit and put in a run of games. Can Lawes and Launchbury show previous form. Can Attwood get back in the picture. Can Kruis be any more than a hard working lightweight. Will Parling be injured long term and is he now an ex-international. Can Itoje get a series of games for Sarries. Will Burgess stay in RU. Can Fraser nail down a first team spot and stay fit. Will Wood and Robshaw ever play together again. Will billyV recover. Should Hughes be considered. Is Kvesic lightweight. Will youngs recover from the ankle injury sustained against Wales. Will Care regain a semblance of form. Who will be first choice SH at Wasps.

Bored now - but more questions than answers.

Yeah very true LT

LondonTiger wrote:Thankfully we have a couple of months and 4 rounds in Europe before the EPS will be named.

There are too many questions around players right now:

Can Hartley find form and keep his cool. Will George withhold the Brits challenge. Can Marler and Cole find any sort of form. Can Mako and Brookes demonstrate they are capable of lasting more than 30 minutes at international pace. Can Slater and Kitchener get fit and put in a run of games. Can Lawes and Launchbury show previous form. Can Attwood get back in the picture. Can Kruis be any more than a hard working lightweight. Will Parling be injured long term and is he now an ex-international. Can Itoje get a series of games for Sarries. Will Burgess stay in RU. Can Fraser nail down a first team spot and stay fit. Will Wood and Robshaw ever play together again. Will billyV recover. Should Hughes be considered. Is Kvesic lightweight. Will youngs recover from the ankle injury sustained against Wales. Will Care regain a semblance of form. Who will be first choice SH at Wasps.

Bored now - but more questions than answers.

Pretty much spot on. Give the players a few months to play themselves back into contention and look at form in jan. Backs I think are fine, forwards need some players to put their hand up, be good to see the likes of Clifford/Itoje introduced if they warrant it. That said, by the end of this season we *really* need to have a settled first and second choice pack.