England Squad for the 6N 2016

First topic message reminder :

Well, the dust is settling on our early exit, time to concentrate on the next disappointment.

We obviously have no idea who the Head Coach or team will be at this current point, but we can take a stab at the potential squad going into the 6N.

2 games into the AP season, who's looking impressive? Who can come in under the radar and steal a spot? Are any of the disappointing WC squad going to grab the bull by the horns and actually impress! Who should be captain? What could or starting 23 be? Do we starting blooding for 2019 now?

BamBam wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Being big doesn't make you a big hitter in defence.

I'd definitely argue that Slade is stronger in the tackle than Burrell for instance. He isn't the biggest but his positioning, technique and timing are excellent. On top of this he is also fearless.

I don't by any means think Burrell is poor defensively - the ease with which he moved to 13 without being caught out in positioning shows that. However he rarely uses his size to make 'big' hits. Rather he hits low and gets back up quickly to make sure he is back in the line for the next phase. This is a role that Slade is just as equipped to play IMO.

Thats probably true, but also from an attacking point of view I think we need the option of a crash ball runner.

FES if Tuilagi can get fit and playing regularly, that could work. However with JDV for 6 months then Toomua from next season, I can't imagine Tigers playing him at 12

Ideally we would have a destructive crash ball runner with rounded skills in the rest of their game available but with the current players I don't really see one.

Barritt isn't dynamic enough to fix many defenders. Burrell at 12 struggled to bust the gainline as we hoped and Manu is injured.

At the moment I think our strengths are attacking out wide to utilise our young wingers and Brown joining the line in space where he can use his ability to always beat the first tackle. For this I would much rather see an elusive and fast outside centre with a 12 who can get them the ball.

As for heavy duty running I would look to get more ball carriers in the pack to do that for us.

king_carlos wrote:

BamBam wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Being big doesn't make you a big hitter in defence.

I'd definitely argue that Slade is stronger in the tackle than Burrell for instance. He isn't the biggest but his positioning, technique and timing are excellent. On top of this he is also fearless.

I don't by any means think Burrell is poor defensively - the ease with which he moved to 13 without being caught out in positioning shows that. However he rarely uses his size to make 'big' hits. Rather he hits low and gets back up quickly to make sure he is back in the line for the next phase. This is a role that Slade is just as equipped to play IMO.

Thats probably true, but also from an attacking point of view I think we need the option of a crash ball runner.

FES if Tuilagi can get fit and playing regularly, that could work. However with JDV for 6 months then Toomua from next season, I can't imagine Tigers playing him at 12

Ideally we would have a destructive crash ball runner with rounded skills in the rest of their game available but with the current players I don't really see one.

Barritt isn't dynamic enough to fix many defenders. Burrell at 12 struggled to bust the gainline as we hoped and Manu is injured.

At the moment I think our strengths are attacking out wide to utilise our young wingers and Brown joining the line in space where he can use his ability to always beat the first tackle. For this I would much rather see an elusive and fast outside centre with a 12 who can get them the ball.

As for heavy duty running I would look to get more ball carriers in the pack to do that for us.

Brown has been outstanding for England but I believe now at the start of a world cup cycle we should look at moving Watson to his true position of FB, he beats his man has far more pace and excellent ball skills. It has been sometime since England had a FB who can really counter with a scoring threat as they haven't had the pace. This may be a controversial comment and by no means is it a critiscm of Brown but I just think we have other wingers who could come in and then have a truly frightening back 3.

K

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:LCD is starting ahead of Yeandle isn't he?

I'd say George and Hartley will likely be the 2 but I just don't get the anti Youngs thing. This generally goes around though, it'll be someone else's turn soon.

Ah I think he's a bit unlucky. He's played in a weak, unbalanced pack. Imagine with a more powerful (yet still mobile ) lock combo, and more balanced flankers he would be a very good player.

Like we normally have at leicester.

As regards to B. youngs and care. both of their form dips now and again but at the moment youngs is in great form.

Not sure if either Ben or Care fit the bill for a typical Eddie Jones SH.

In what way...are you saying he needs a passing 9 with super quick service?

Do we have one of them?

GeordieFalcon wrote:In what way...are you saying he needs a passing 9 with super quick service?

Do we have one of them?

You'd like to think that if he demands it from his 9 then those who want the shirt will roll their sleeves up, go the extra mile in training and build up these core skills. Youngs is not that far away in my opinion. No way can I see Care having this ability, his passing is poor by scrum half standards.

nathan wrote:K

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:LCD is starting ahead of Yeandle isn't he?

I'd say George and Hartley will likely be the 2 but I just don't get the anti Youngs thing. This generally goes around though, it'll be someone else's turn soon.

Ah I think he's a bit unlucky. He's played in a weak, unbalanced pack. Imagine with a more powerful (yet still mobile ) lock combo, and more balanced flankers he would be a very good player.

Like we normally have at leicester.

As regards to B. youngs and care. both of their form dips now and again but at the moment youngs is in great form.

Youngs passing is frequently awful, slow, looping, and behind the man. He's also often slow to get the ball out. He can snipe, great, but he's another of our players who can't do the fundamentals of the position well. Care's entire game is better, but it would be nice to have a SH who really zips the ball out.

Student-A1 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:In what way...are you saying he needs a passing 9 with super quick service?

Do we have one of them?

You'd like to think that if he demands it from his 9 then those who want the shirt will roll their sleeves up, go the extra mile in training and build up these core skills. Youngs is not that far away in my opinion. No way can I see Care having this ability, his passing is poor by scrum half standards.

I'm amazed that anyone thinks Youngs' passing is better than Care's. Possibly slightly quicker but so often behind the man.

Hood83 wrote:

nathan wrote:K

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:LCD is starting ahead of Yeandle isn't he?

I'd say George and Hartley will likely be the 2 but I just don't get the anti Youngs thing. This generally goes around though, it'll be someone else's turn soon.

Ah I think he's a bit unlucky. He's played in a weak, unbalanced pack. Imagine with a more powerful (yet still mobile ) lock combo, and more balanced flankers he would be a very good player.

Like we normally have at leicester.

As regards to B. youngs and care. both of their form dips now and again but at the moment youngs is in great form.

Youngs passing is frequently awful, slow, looping, and behind the man. He's also often slow to get the ball out. He can snipe, great, but he's another of our players who can't do the fundamentals of the position well. Care's entire game is better, but it would be nice to have a SH who really zips the ball out.

Agree we aren't blessed with CHs but Care in no way has better fundamental skills, can't pass with a 2 yard walk first, kicking game is woeful and decision making is not at all good.

Hopefully some of the younger guys start coming through and in an Australian coach they have someone who they can learn off, well hopefully so.

Both Youngs and Care step too much before passing, or should I say have a tendancy to do so.

I have always been a fan of Care and personally feel he edges Youngs when they're both on form.
But Youngs is a very good player though and ive seen him have some brilliant games for England...and he's actually still only young despite his number of caps.

Id just like to see some genuine consistency from them both. I think that's a criticism that has correctly be labelled at them since they both came in to the England squad.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Both Youngs and Care step too much before passing, or should I say have a tendancy to do so.

I have always been a fan of Care and personally feel he edges Youngs when they're both on form.
But Youngs is a very good player though and ive seen him have some brilliant games for England...and he's actually still only young despite his number of caps.

Id just like to see some genuine consistency from them both. I think that's a criticism that has correctly be labelled at them since they both came in to the England squad.

Agreed, I do think though that Care is an impact sub, I don't think his game management is very good so shouldn't be a starter. I suppose there is an argument for Simpson being on the bench seeing how his pace causes havoc.

Simpson takes poor passing to a whole new level.....

[quote="Sgt_Pooly"]Simpson takes poor passing to a whole new level.....[/quote]

I know but much greater impact off bench than say a Wigglesworth. Was just a quick comment not really making a huge case for him. The lack of true quality here is a problem.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Simpson takes poor passing to a whole new level.....

Did you see his game v Leinster? Good passing then.

Any way I came on here to get the ball rolling on Dave Ward for open side flanker. Just had an out standing MoM performance there for Quins

I've watched Simpson for a long time, he has the worst passing game of any scrum half in the AP imo.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I've watched Simpson for a long time, he has the worst passing game of any scrum half in the AP imo.

Where are the younger 9s coming up and putting pressure on Care and Youngs? There was a time they were the young guys pushing out the old guard.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I've watched Simpson for a long time, he has the worst passing game of any scrum half in the AP imo.

FFS who said he was an outstanding passer?? No one.

I noticed that Yappy. But he was a 7 originally wasn't he...who was moved to 2?

His breakdown skills are immense. What about the rest of his game as a flanker? Are they as good as Robshaw, Clifford etc?

PS Is Cliffords injury serious?

GeordieFalcon wrote:I noticed that Yappy. But he was a 7 originally wasn't he...who was moved to 2?

His breakdown skills are immense. What about the rest of his game as a flanker? Are they as good as Robshaw, Clifford etc?

PS Is Cliffords injury serious?

He is in no way a 7 now, a half decent hooker at best too. He played well against a pretty poor Cardiff team and will no doubt not play 7 again. He will do a good job for Quins as back up to Gray but I don't see anything other than that.

Its irrelevant anyway A1, as its between Fraser and Kvesic

Hood83 wrote:

nathan wrote:K

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:LCD is starting ahead of Yeandle isn't he?

I'd say George and Hartley will likely be the 2 but I just don't get the anti Youngs thing. This generally goes around though, it'll be someone else's turn soon.

Ah I think he's a bit unlucky. He's played in a weak, unbalanced pack. Imagine with a more powerful (yet still mobile ) lock combo, and more balanced flankers he would be a very good player.

Like we normally have at leicester.

As regards to B. youngs and care. both of their form dips now and again but at the moment youngs is in great form.

Youngs passing is frequently awful, slow, looping, and behind the man. He's also often slow to get the ball out. He can snipe, great, but he's another of our players who can't do the fundamentals of the position well. Care's entire game is better, but it would be nice to have a SH who really zips the ball out.

His passing game does go downhill when he is tired. Often slow to get the ball out is usually a result of of our forwards crap work at clearing the ruck.

I think Care can inject more tempo, but his kicking and decision making can be woeful.

Both tend to run across the line which would lead me to think its a tactic of Englands

Best passer of a ball at Leicester is Sam Harrison but don't think he has the overall game to be an international.

Haven't seen much of Robson, how he is getting on?

doctor_grey wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I've watched Simpson for a long time, he has the worst passing game of any scrum half in the AP imo.

Where are the younger 9s coming up and putting pressure on Care and Youngs?  There was a time they were the young guys pushing out the old guard.  

To be fair, Ben Youngs has only just turned 26, so some way from drawing a pension yet.

As to the young guns:

2014 JWC - Callum Braley (tournament captain) was in poor form and on bench (hence Itoje taking over as captain). Has left Bristol to be 3rd choice at Gloucester. Henry Taylor took over the position. He graduated from Loughbrough in the summer and is dual registered with Sarries and Bedford. Doesn't seem to be playing atm.

2013 JWC - Alex Day, started in the final. Left Saints to join cornish Pirates at end of 14/15 season. Callum Braley

2012 6Ns - Dan Robson second choice at Wasps, Ben Spencer 3rd choice at Sarries & Alex Day

2011 JWC - Chris Cook sharing starting duties at Bath & Dan Robson

Student-A1 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I've watched Simpson for a long time, he has the worst passing game of any scrum half in the AP imo.

FFS who said he was an outstanding passer?? No one.

Odd reaction. I didn't suggest anybody said he was an outstanding passer.

I think both Chris Cook and Dan Robson will appear for England at some point. I will admit I have seen less of Robson at Wasps, but I think Cook will be the Bath 1st choice for a while. Not as much flair as either Care or Youngs but a good all rounder. So in reality, probably a Saxons/summer tour England player rather than 1st choice.

I was wondering about the scrum halves because usually if there is someone young and on fire somewhere there is a lot of hype. Right now we have two guys of the same vintage who are good but a bit variable in form. Maybe a lot of miles? Guys with whom we can win. But no successors banging on the doors and putting pressure.

Interesting bits from Jones who stated his belief in a strong set piece numerous times.

Bye bye Tom Youngs

doctor_grey wrote:I was wondering about the scrum halves because usually if there is someone young and on fire somewhere there is a lot of hype.  Right now we have two guys of the same vintage who are good but a bit variable in form.  Maybe a lot of miles?  Guys with whom we can win.   But no successors banging on the doors and putting pressure.  

We have ATM player who could be potential England or Saxons SH's
In age order
wigglesworth (32)
Care (28)
Simpson (27)
Youngs (26)
Harrison (25)
Cook (24)
Robson (23)

IF Robson had moved to club where he was a starter he would prob be the most hyped up ATM.

I can see Robson coming along this season. He's not the sharpest passer but well ahead of Simpson.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Youngs, Care & Robson by the end of the year.

That's really great, gents.  Thanks.  Guys to follow.  I admit I am not a Wiggly fan at all (unless I need a clearance kick) and would want the younger guys coming through.  

As a Saints supporter, I wonder at the Lee Dickson enigma.  He usually has a quick on-target delivery with the club and a good snipe too.  But that was never replicated with England:  Slow to the point of being almost glacial.  I wonder now if that was the England coaching team putting the shackles on him, not allowing him to play his natural game. Or if he has hit his level as a good scrum half at Saints.  Or both.  Making the player fit the plan again.  Either way, probably doesn't matter any more, he is on the older side is not the future.

Lee Dickson for me will not get an England look in again.

He just isn't a international IMO.

I would like to think that the England coaching team could work with Youngs and Care to address their issues. When on song, both of them are class players, it is just the inconsistency that frustrates. Perhaps with a clearer game plan and coaching all round, they will be delivered quicker/better ball and they will concentrate on getting quicker ball out to the backs.

Unless we have a 'world' class no 9 out there, then I hope that a new coach may reinvigorate a few players and perhaps a specialist 9 coach to work with them.

I would like to think mauger and hansen would be able to iron out his Game @ tigers before he evens plays for England in Feb (If he gets picked).

I think one of the problems is/was that Youngs can look a different player when playing for England compared to when he plays for the Tigers, which leads me to think a large part of the issue is the England game plan/coaching. It is the same with Care.

nlpnlp wrote:I think one of the problems is/was that Youngs can look a different player when playing for England compared to when he plays for the Tigers, which leads me to think a large part of the issue is the England game plan/coaching.  It is the same with Care.

I always thought that with Flood and his goal kicking.

There is the issue that International rugby is harder and some players are going to struggle to step up. I always liked Flood and thought he got a pretty raw deal from a lot of England fans and ended up being a wasted talent. He was always being compared to the media image of Jonny Wilkinson, which the current players are only now not really having to worry about.

I know the onus is on the player to bring their club game to International rugby, but sometimes you need to feel 'the love' from the International coaches to believe that you belong there and can fully express yourself.

What we are saying is that we need an English Peter Stringer who has excellent delivery skills. Someone who offers something different to Care/Youngs. Thats the real problem with all English 9's ATM they are all quite similar.

Whos the current Chiefs No,9? Ive only seen a few games but he looks like he has potential.

Chudley he is 27 (28 in March) might be a big to old to be viewed as potential though.

Ah - thought he was one of the young nippers! Cant be aegist though - no reason why he cant win a few caps if good enough.

I have always thought that Robson was probably the one most likely to step up in the next few years though.

What happened to "if your good enough, your young enough"

Haven't seen Ben Spencer for a while but he looked very promising when he was younger. I've never been convinced by Simpson's basics and I don't really know many of the others.

Care and Youngs are both young enough to have another RWC in them. Care has shown in last week what he can do, playing a big role in creating a try against Montpellier and scoring a breakaway from quite a way out against Cardiff.

I was happy with the Care/Farrell and Youngs/Ford pairings that Lancaster had in 2014-15. They worked, with a balance of a controlling player and a creative one. Why he went for Youngs/Farrell, especially then continuing Burgess/Barritt I just do not understand.

Anyway, I think Jones will take a good look at the squad, form a view of what he wants to do and then pick the players who can mould themselves to the template. He may surprise us, or he may not.

Sorry to re-hash, but a few Jones comments:

Jones said: 'England have lost a lot with Dylan Hartley out. He has been a massive loss. Tom Youngs doesn’t seem to have that scrummaging ability.'

He said: 'Chris Robshaw wears No 7, but he is a six-and-a-half at best. He's not hard over the ball and he's not quick. He's a useful player but he's not and out-and-out open-side flanker.

'Robshaw is an outstanding club player but at international level he just doesn't have that point of difference. He carries OK, he tackles OK, but he's not outstandingly good in any area. I think that is his limiting factor...

'Steffon Armitage is pretty hard and handy over the ball and would definitely bring that quality to the England side.'

'Ben Morgan and Tom Wood don't play over the ball, and Robshaw only half does it.'

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Sorry to re-hash, but a few Jones comments:

Jones said: 'England have lost a lot with Dylan Hartley out. He has been a massive loss. Tom Youngs doesn’t seem to have that scrummaging ability.'

He said: 'Chris Robshaw wears No 7, but he is a six-and-a-half at best. He's not hard over the ball and he's not quick. He's a useful player but he's not and out-and-out open-side flanker.

'Robshaw is an outstanding club player but at international level he just doesn't have that point of difference. He carries OK, he tackles OK, but he's not outstandingly good in any area. I think that is his limiting factor...

'Steffon Armitage is pretty hard and handy over the ball and would definitely bring that quality to the England side.'

'Ben Morgan and Tom Wood don't play over the ball, and Robshaw only half does it.'

I should also point out that he has since said some of his comments were him being a bit naughty so don't take them as serious.

An expected response really Nathan but I'd be very surprised if these weren't his actual opinions (or at least some truth).

Time will tell I guess.

The exact quote as I recall was "I wasn't Head Coach of England at that point, I was writing a newspaper column. I may have been a bit naughty."

He's also said that he'll support the overseas player rule.

Basically, ignore everything he has said in the past. He's going to look at what players can do and he's going to make his mind up based on what that adds to the gameplan he has in mind.

Sgt, they may well reflect what he thought about how they were playing at the time. But Jones is a coach with a track record of getting players to perform at a higher level. Even if he really meant that he didn't like how they were playing then, it doesn't mean he can't or won't coach them to play the way he wants. That's what coaches do.

He also said today that he thought 70% of the current squad could make it to the 2019 RWC, and that Lancaster has left him a strong squad to build on.

I wouldn't be surprised if his 6N squad is largely the current one, minus players who are past 30, injured or obviously out of form, plus a few expected promotions and a couple of bolters. I think it's likely that he will implement his gameplan with a squad that is used to playing together, and then start replacing players who can't match up to what he wants.

He only has a few weeks to pull his squad together and he won't want to throw the baby out with the bath water. But at the same time, expect there to be a few big surprises in who he drops, who he picks and who he keeps.

I presume he meant 70% of the squad could play in 2019 as they're quite young rather than up to standard. If he can improve our set piece and breakdown, I think we have the makings of a very good team (bar the obvious 12 issue).

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I presume he meant 70% of the squad could play in 2019 as they're quite young rather than up to standard. If he can improve our set piece and breakdown, I think we have the makings of a very good team (bar the obvious 12 issue).

That's the way I understood it.  70% could make 2019 because they are young enough.

doctor_grey wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I presume he meant 70% of the squad could play in 2019 as they're quite young rather than up to standard. If he can improve our set piece and breakdown, I think we have the makings of a very good team (bar the obvious 12 issue).

That's the way I understood it.  70% could make 2019 because they are young enough.

I suppose there's around 25 million or so in England who "could make" the next WC then. I'm liking this Jones already.

Matt Smith for England captain.

Jordan Crane vice cpatain.