England Squad for the 6N 2016

First topic message reminder :

Well, the dust is settling on our early exit, time to concentrate on the next disappointment.

We obviously have no idea who the Head Coach or team will be at this current point, but we can take a stab at the potential squad going into the 6N.

2 games into the AP season, who's looking impressive? Who can come in under the radar and steal a spot? Are any of the disappointing WC squad going to grab the bull by the horns and actually impress! Who should be captain? What could or starting 23 be? Do we starting blooding for 2019 now?

I did this a few times when we were discussing RWC squads but other than Nowell are any of our wingers that strong in defence?

May - Probably strongest after Nowell but can still get caught out positionally fairly often.

Watson - Good in positioning but falls of as many tackles as Wade and Ashton, he just isn't highlighted for it.

Ashton - Has improved a lot and is now much stronger in positioning but still poor in the tackle

Yarde - Regularly caught out in positioning and contact, i.e. falling off tackles. He is doing better this season than last though given he seems to have remembered that he still needs to offer something when not carrying the ball.

Wade - He has improved a lot in positioning but is still suspect there. In the tackle he is technically good but his size means he can get beaten 1 on 1 against bigger players.

Roko - Along with Nowell he is strongest in the tackle. Due to his power he can put in destructive hits and will rarely get overpowered or bumped off once in good position. However his positioning is sometimes suspect. Overall I'd say he's the best defender after Nowell however.

An argument I regularly hear against Wade is, "can you imagine him trying to tackle Savea"? Frankly I think the outcome would be the same more often than not for all our wings other than Nowell!

king_carlos wrote:
Watson - Good in positioning but falls of as many tackles as Wade and Ashton, he just isn't highlighted for it.

I guess it depends what you mean by positioning, but I feel Watson falls off tackles because he is in a poor position - and indeed often fails to even lay a hand on the player. While he is not guilty of the Wade/Ashton type positioning issues where they are well away from where they shoudl be, he is far too often wrong footed because he is not quite in the right place and often thinking like a FB.

What about Roko?

king_carlos wrote:

An argument I regularly hear against Wade is, "can you imagine him trying to tackle Savea"? Frankly I think the outcome would be the same more often than not for all our international wings other than Nowell!

That's better

Yarde's looked significantly better all round this season. He hasn't scored many tries but he's making breaks and yards, and he hasn't been noticeably poor in defence (possibly because teams have known to attack down the other wing, where they've faced notable revolving doors Visser and Walker).

But as Ashton's case shows, it depends on the game plan. Ashton looked really good under Johnno's gameplan, and all at sea under Lancaster's. Wingers are probably the most interchangeable of players at international level (as in it's easier to bring a new winger in and integrate them tactically than any other position), so it's the area where I expect to see the most change.

By the 6N, Eddie will have a very definite gameplan in mind and will pick he players he thinks can best deliver it. History suggests he will probably be right.

LondonTiger wrote:Goode's form this season has been stunningly good. I feel he is quite easily the most skilful of all the contenders, which is why he looks so good at club level, and why the pundits like him. However as I discussed on another thread the weaknesses in his game are too easily exploited by international players, while his skill ha much less of an impact.

I can though see Jones looking at him, rather than the "blood and thunder" types represented by Brown and Pennell.

Sorry to roll the debate back a bit, but if we are looking for a ball-playing 15, and we don't like Goode, could there be a call to Manchester for a certain D Cipriani?

Obviously it would help loads if Eddie Jones could call up Steve Diamond and tell him to play Cipriani exclusively at 15 (as Hansen did with Barrett). But playing Cipriani (or even Goode) could allow us to play without a ball-playing centre, freeing up positions for Tuilagi, Joseph, Daly and Burrell. I guess it depends on how Jones wishes his team to play.

With regards to wings, I like May and Watson, they were one of the few things that worked. I would have Nowell or Daly in the 23 shirt (and the other in the wider squad), and then there's probably only room for one more winger in the squad. I really like Wade and would have been tempted to give him a go in the squad if he was fit as a bit of an outside option for the main squad. As it is now, I think it's between Yarde, Ashton and possibly Foden (as a 15 covering wing, if you only have 1 other specialist 15).

I doubt Diamond would take to that idea Robbo.

I think the wingers we're dealing with are Nowell, May & Watson + Yarde/Ashton. Jones has stated he's a fan of May so I'd expect to see him included.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I doubt Diamond would take to that idea Robbo.

I think the wingers we're dealing with are Nowell, May & Watson + Yarde/Ashton. Jones has stated he's a fan of May so I'd expect to see him included.

It was more a comment on central contracts and the scale of Jones' task to compete on an even playing field.

But I agree, even if Jones wants it, Sale probably won't play ball with him.

Why is no one mentioning Roko?

Is he not rated?

Forgot about Roko, I guess he's in with a shot as much as Yarde & Ashton.

And of course they'll all move aside once Zac has found his feet again with a few games....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Why is no one mentioning Roko?

Is he not rated?

Personally, I am not a huge fan. I'm sure he's a good club player, but I don't think he is good enough at any facet of the game to ever stand out at International level. Maybe harsh to judge him before he's been given a proper go, but I think we've seen enough from May, Watson and Nowell to get excited about. As for Wade, I wouldn't be throwing him straight into the first team, but I'd have a look at him, because he does have that point of difference in that he is a very elusive player. If being around the International squad can improve his all-round game, he'll be a serious player for England (and even if not, he may be a risk worth taking anyway).

I would make an exception of having Wade in the squad to work with him.

Offensively he is class.. If he can get some decent basics then he will be a scaryily good winger.

I like wingers who can create things - do that magic. Players like JSD who is one of my all time favourite players and its a tragedy that he didn't grace the international scene as he should have.

I agree with Sgt that you do need a decent modicum of defensive awareness at this level but I also think he is one we should really make an effort with as he could be special.

Also...the only glaring problem I see currently with our backs is a real lack of power.

This is the backs that every one is suggesting:
9 Care / Youngs
10 Ford
11 May
12 Slade
13 Joseph
14 Watson
15 Brown

Now its skilled and pacy...but for me lacks a bit of a brute somewhere. The 10-12-13 axis looks a little lightweight if you consider some of the potential opposition midfielders....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Also...the only glaring problem I see currently with our backs is a real lack of power.

This is the backs that every one is suggesting:
9 Care / Youngs
10 Ford
11 May
12 Slade
13 Joseph
14 Watson
15 Brown

Now its skilled and pacy...but for me lacks a bit of a brute somewhere. The 10-12-13 axis looks a little lightweight if you consider some of the potential opposition midfielders....

Ah well, even if we exclude injured players (Manu), then we can fix that issue with 10 Farrell, 12 Barritt & 13 Burrell

GeordieFalcon wrote:What about Roko?

I knew I'd forgotten someone from that list! I'll add him in and put it below - it's only as I see it though of course.

Roko - Along with Nowell he is strongest in the tackle. Due to his power he can put in destructive hits and will rarely get overpowered or bumped off once in good position. However his positioning is sometimes suspect. Overall I'd say he's the best defender after Nowell however.

I rate Roko really highly and hope he gets reconsidered by Jones. He is very powerful and bigger than our other wing options but is still really quick and has great feet. If Wade is injured then I'd take Roko in the EPS.

Wing - Watson, May, Nowell, Roko
Full back - Brown and Pennell

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm just of the thinking at International level you need a decent basic all round game and should be good at your tasks, anything else is then a bonus.

A back 3 player should be able to field a high ball and be steady positionaly & defensively. A hooker should be able to throw and hook a ball as well as scrummage to a good level. A scrum half should be able to pass/kick and have some game management etc etc.

These are just basic requirements and then you find your best players from this pool. For every 5pts that Wade scores, he makes numerous mistakes that cost points. This would only be highlighted at International level.

How many of the AB back 3 players cannot field a high ball or are poor in defence.........none.

Whilst a winger should be able to perform those skills I think it is a very over simplified and defence minded thought process to consider them as number 1 priority Sgt.

In my mind a winger should have lots of pace and the ability to regularly beat their man one on one. If our wingers don't have this ability then our entire attack immediately becomes easy to nullify as sides can defend extremely narrowly due to the lack of threat out wide. As such we will rarely get over the gain line or build any momentum as our big runners will be throwing themselves into a brick wall.

This to me is the equivalent of a prop needing to scrum first and foremost.

If your winger can beat guys one on one as Wade can it immediately stretches the defence wider and makes everything easier to attack inside it. That in my view is the first role of a winger along with finding the try line.

I think we've got our paths crossed a little.

A winger obviously needs gas and to be able to find the try line, but that's why I was saying you pick your wingers who have a basic defence skill, not that the number one priority they to be able to defend.

We have a plethora of good wingers that have gas and can beat a man, if they can't defend, they're going to be targeted. A modern day winger worth his salt should have rounded defensive skill set or they're going to struggle when they step up.

May & Nowell are good defenders one on one, similar to a certain extent with Watson.

Strange that we're talking about wingers when it's one of best positions.

If one winger offers significantly more in attack than one player then I am willing to forgive slightly worse defence personally.

I think that is where we disagree though. I don't view Wade's defence as massively worse than Watson, Yarde or Ashton personally.

I'd also say that wingers are players whose defensive issues can be protected more by the defensive system used by a team. When Savea first came in NZ did this for him IMO. He was very physical in the tackle but liable to be found out of position and under the high ball. He was given time to settle in and improve his defence though.

I think Wade offers enough to going forward to be given a chance. Especially if we are looking to play a wide game using Joseph/Daly at 13 to attack the outside channels.

Sides will target him but our other wing options have been successfully targeted in the past just the same and are still being considered.

I just can't agree on Wade, he has too many issues. When you have poor one on one defence/ positioning and are awful under the high ball, it's a lot to address. His size also goes against him.

I think he's a good AP player, but I can't see him getting any further.

As said I don't feel his tackling and positioning are actually significantly weaker than many of the other options - Ashton and Yarde especially.

Under the high ball his height does undoubtedly work against him. However judging and competing for high balls is an area which we regularly see players improve in massively.

In terms of him being targeted he also has the very significant advantage of being lethal returning loose kicks. Teams can try to drop high balls on him all day but if they misjudge them or kick too long (which many International somehow do very often) then he can make them pay. This in itself makes him naturally harder to target in that regard than many believe IMO.

With him out injured it sounds as though it will be an irrelevance for the 6 Nations anyway. Personally I'd like to see him on the Aus tour playing on hard pitches but in order to get there he will need to find fitness and then form once again.

Unless he gets a chance I guess we will have to agree to disagree on whether he could hack International rugby though Sgt!

Is Alex Lewington not going to be considered until he leaves Irish? the guy looks absolute lightening and is beating defenders for fun this season. Not seen enough of him in defence ( the highlights seem to only highlight his positive contributions)

GeordieFalcon wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:I am not a big fan of May.  I suppose he still gives me the impression of the headless chicken and I not convinced.
Nowell and Watson I think are good and getting better.  How is Ashton's defence right now?  

I suspect that is an impression for some that will never go away, even when it is 5-10 years since he last did it. Players get pigeon holed and we seem to never let them get over that initial first impression.

He did it again for Gloucester against Saints this weekend.  

Doc,
I don't actually mind him zigzagging / running like a headless chicken the odd time. The problem was he did it ALL the time, and more infuriating was at times when he had a clear straight run forward...he would stop instead of just pining his ears back and going for it.

I do think he's improved a lot in that area.

As for Wade
I would have him in the squad to to have a real good look at him.

May is a top class kick chaser, get them in training and have Farrell drop a few bombs on Wade with May and Watson chasing see how he copes.

Good point about the kick-chase.  May is very good and covers ground fast so can cover more kicks than other players.  To me, the other huge advantage May brings is his raw (but inconsistent) abilities with the ball which do worry opposing teams.  Teams do game plan against this which can provide other opportunities elsewhere.  We have seen him make some powerful and fast breaks.  But he sometimes finishes them with runs to nowhere.  I think so much of that is instinctive, magic of the moment stuff, which may be very difficult to coach out of him.    As I said he did the same this weekend.  Maybe a different England environment will help?  In my mind's eye I see him as driving around a roundabout over and over and over and over................

Agree Wade needs to be in the squad, if for no other reason to see what he can do.  If he does well, great.  If he washes out, then at least no one will wonder.

On current form I would suggest the back line would look something like this


Nowell, Simmo, Farrell, Slade, Daly, Watson, Goode

May never happen but if Farrell didn't kick so much they could play a bit!

That's not a great backline

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:On current form I would suggest the back line would look something like this


Nowell, Simmo, Farrell, Slade, Daly, Watson, Goode

May never happen but if Farrell didn't kick so much they could play a bit!

I thought Andy Goode retired?

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Also...the only glaring problem I see currently with our backs is a real lack of power.

This is the backs that every one is suggesting:
9 Care / Youngs
10 Ford
11 May
12 Slade
13 Joseph
14 Watson
15 Brown

Now its skilled and pacy...but for me lacks a bit of a brute somewhere. The 10-12-13 axis looks a little lightweight if you consider some of the potential opposition midfielders....

Ah well, even if we exclude injured players (Manu), then we can fix that issue with 10 Farrell, 12 Barritt & 13 Burrell

LT, on a serious note though im all for a skilled and pacy backline, but I do still believe you need some good old fashioned power and size in there aswell. However ill be curious to see how that backline would fair.

I would probably go (but some choices are very marginal)

9 Simpson
10 Ford
11 Nowell
12 Slade
13 Joseph
14 Watson
15 Brown

Over time perhaps Watson would replace Brown and may be Roko come in on the wing.

This gives two robust wingers and pace at full-back, center and scrum-half.

A bit light weight but until its been tried....

It seems like Tuilagi will be back for Leicester for XMas:

http://www.rugbyweek.com/tuilagi-hoping-to-return-for-leicester-at-christmas/

That's before JJ is back, but Tuilagi will have been out for 13 months. It's likely for Scotland, England will have to do without these two.

Is a centre pairing of Slade and Daly too inexperienced and too light weight? Maybe Burrell will have to take one of those roles.

I'm not sure Simpson & Ford would work that well together. Both have game management issues, I'd prefer Youngs as he can control a game better.

Independent reports that (surprise surprise) the RFU are negotiating with Bristol over Borthwick.

12 Burrell
13 Slade

Switching dependant on attacking moves / defence ?

Or Hill and Slade as they do for club?

Burrell and Slade would be my pick, think they could both switch around as and when and Slade will take the pressure off 10 while Burrell gives them a get out of jail card if they're stuck for options. Keep his game plan as simple as possible and get some glue on his hands.

I'd go

9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. May
12. Burrell
13. Slade
14. Nowell
15. Brown

21. Care
22. Farrell
23. Daly

Then over summer we'll have the happy problem of Joseph, Many and Slade fighting for that 13 shirt.

In which case, Slade would do well to go for the 12 shirt.

Then JJ, Tuilagi and Daly fight for the 13 shirt.

No one has owned that 12 slot since Greenwood retired.

yapsnap

I think i would change Nowell for Watson. But the rest seems good too me.

I'm not sure if I'd swap Slade/Burrell around.

12. Slade
13. Burrell

This would allow Slade to be tried out at 12 and Burrell has played better at 13 in the past. It would also allow for Joseph & Tuilagi to slot back in if they're fit. Ford can struggle sometimes without help from 9/12, throw Youngs in too and we have plenty of management at 9-12 and strike runner 11/13/14/15.

cb wrote:I would probably go (but some choices are very marginal)

9 Simpson
10 Ford
11 Nowell
12 Slade
13 Joseph
14 Watson
15 Brown

Over time perhaps Watson would replace Brown and may be Roko come in on the wing.

This gives two robust wingers and pace at full-back, center and scrum-half.

A bit light weight but until its been tried....

Looks good but JJ will be struggling for the 6Ns so Daly comes in here for me with arguably more pace & an extra 3 points now and agin for 50+ metre pens.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

cb wrote:I would probably go (but some choices are very marginal)

9 Simpson
10 Ford
11 Nowell
12 Slade
13 Joseph
14 Watson
15 Brown

Over time perhaps Watson would replace Brown and may be Roko come in on the wing.

This gives two robust wingers and pace at full-back, center and scrum-half.

A bit light weight but until its been tried....

Looks good but JJ will be struggling for the 6Ns so Daly comes in here for me with arguably more pace & an extra 3 points now and agin for 50+ metre pens.

And a much worse defence.

Slade & Daly in midfield would be seriously weak.

Just to confirm you don't think Slade is weak defensively do you?

No he punches at his weight. He's not outstanding but he's solid which is good enough.

I'd put him behind Barritt and only him.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd put him behind Barritt and only him.

I'd disagree that Slade was the 2nd best defensive centre in England. He's solid and in a pot with other similar level players like Devoto etc but not quite at the level of Matt Smith, Farrell, Hill etc.

Slade is a good all round player though, not sure he can cut it as an International centre but he's worth a shot as the cupboard is pretty bare.

I was trying to think of English centres and really struggled.

12. Barritt, Burrell, Hill, Farrell,  Devoto, Eastmond, Twelvetrees, Gereghty, Williams, Stephenson, Sloan

13. Joseph, Daly, Tuilagi, James, Smith, Powell, Trinder, Slade, Harris, Tompkins, Lowe

Any others?

If you're after just options, these are ones that have played so far this year.



Edit: note some of these haven't been playing centre but are listed as such on their club website.

Stephenson, Tompkins, Lowe, Sloan, Williams (LI), all played premiership rugby in the centre this season.

I'm surprised by that as I think Slade is supremely talented and I'm almosr certain he'll start for Jones.

HammerofThunor wrote:If you're after just options, these are ones that have played so far this year.



Edit: note some of these haven't been playing centre but are listed as such on their club website.

Jonny May is listed by Glaws as a centre?

Elliott and Streather are exclusively wingers too.

It's eddies first day on the job today, wonder when we'll hear about th coaches

LondonTiger wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:If you're after just options, these are ones that have played so far this year.



Edit: note some of these haven't been playing centre but are listed as such on their club website.

Jonny May is listed by Glaws as a centre?

Elliott and Streather are exclusively wingers too.

Yep.

http://www.gloucesterrugby.co.uk/rugby/squad/squads_gloucester_first_xv.php?player=77838&includeref=dynamic

Although, I do allow myself some judgement (although clearly missed some obvious ones).