England Squad for the 6N 2016 #2

First topic message reminder :

Well, the dust is settling on our early exit, time to concentrate on the next disappointment.

We obviously have no idea who the Head Coach or team will be at this current point, but we can take a stab at the potential squad going into the 6N.

2 games into the AP season, who's looking impressive? Who can come in under the radar and steal a spot? Are any of the disappointing WC squad going to grab the bull by the horns and actually impress! Who should be captain? What could or starting 23 be? Do we starting blooding for 2019 now?

I think they are all decent players and Addison and Haley might be worth a shot in the Saxons (although with Addison, that might be my Cumbrian bias showing through!), but it's not like we are lacking in outside centres or full backs. Paul Hill is an interesting one, because at some point I reckon he is going to be on England's radar, he's a precocious talent.

I had hopes for Wallace about four/five years ago, but now he strikes me as a decent club man (nothing wrong with that). Same goes for Chudley, a good professional, but not an international.

Harsh on Chudley there as well Pooly. He has been excellent in a very impressive Exeter team.

I'd be tempted to have him in the EPS as 3rd choice - although I think Simpson has earnt that chance. Chudleys kicking game is very strong solid but he also has an excellent pass and offers a threat around the edges. He doesn't have the pace or step of Youngs or tackle breaking ability of Care but if we want a rounded scrum half who performs consistently then I'd take him over Wigglesworth or Dickson.

I don't think any of them are past solid AP players which isn't a bad thing. We want players better than solid for England imo.

Agree on Wallace, never had the consistency really, Clifford looks better in the long run. I'd start Kvesic at 7, with Robshaw and Billy. Clifford on the bench.

Hartley is in the bench this week for Saints, worrying that Haywood is keeping him out. How long before Haywood gets selected for England?

Really the only position I am stuck on is 12.

Currently:
Mako, George, Cole, Kruis, launchbury, Robshaw, Kvesic, Billy , Care, Farrell, ?, Nowell, JJ, Watson, Brown

Hartley, Marler, Thomas, Itoje, Clifford, Youngs, Ford, Daly.

Any strong opinions on the Leicester v Northampton England contests?

I was at the Quins /Saracens game. Brown and Yarde had the better of Goode and Ashton, but in fairness to Ashton he had absolutely no platform. I'm not 100% sure he even got the ball, but he must have done at some point.

Itoje seemed reasonably prominent (played 78 minutes after Kruis' injury).

Vunipola had a strong game at the scrum but Quins started to gain more parity in the second half. The scrum won Saracens both of their tries though.

Clifford completely fluffed one high ball but instantly made up for it with a breakdown turnover. He ran a cracking line to score off Evans' lovely inside pass, and then made a 50m break at the end off a turnover to effectively secure the win.

Robshaw was Robshaw. Great hit on Goode (I think) down the blindside at one point. Must be favourite to start at 6.

Tuilagi made his return, steady last 20 nothing spectacular although made a few good carries and a great hit on lawes.

B. Youngs played well, Dickson I though was a bit quite. for saints I thought Harrison played well, very busy.

Apparently Nowell went off with a twisted knee....

Harrison looked very good and Burrell had a pretty decent game. Hill is getting better every game and isn't that far off the level of Cole which is something for a 20 year old.

Haywood comprehensively outplayed Tom Youngs, especially in the set peice. Ben Youngs impressed for Leicester, Kitchener was pretty quiet and Lawes was very hit and miss.

Kitch git amongst the Saints lineout well and the duel between him and Matfield was a good watch.

Disagree over the hookers there was little between them and both played well. Haywood may be kicking himself for Youngs break to Williams over but that was as much Hill's fault. Cole played well and looked much better at scrum time and around the park until his yellow card which whilst a touch harsh wasn't necessary from Cole.

Manu back but Cockers has already put the dampers on him playing in the 6N. Though Smith looked more involved than Burrell personally. Foden had a good game at the back for Saints and could be a surprise call up.

Injuries are starting to rack up it seems. May be back to last man standing again.

It was a weird game at Welford Road, only about two scrums but maybe 50 lineouts!!

With the paucity of scrums, comparing props is tricky. Cole made several turmovers, but was also binned. Hill looked promising ball in hand but a little lightweight.
Both hookers went well in the lineout, especially once the rain came. Hayward very prominent in the Saints defence,skipper Youngs always there to make the hard yards for Leicester.
Kitchener and Lawes both featured strongly in defence, but Kitch used more by Leicester as a carrier.
Harrison looked decent, but lightweight and was really helped by early injury to O'Connor.
If we are to discuss Harrison, then we should also discuss McCaffery who was an all action dynamo in securing MotM.
YBY outplayed Dickson, Burrell was poor, Manu raised a smile form Eddie Jones but little more and Foden was promising in attack but a complete liability in defence.

I have to agree, thought Burrell wasn't that great, he was pretty anonymous throughout the game

So Kruis, Launchbury and Nowell went off injured this weekend. Kruis stretchered off unconscious, Launchbury multiple head injuries and Nowell twisted his knee/ankle.

Could be two more in a race for the 6Ns now

Also how about Care as the new England captain?

Kitchener and Itoje for the locks.

Wing...Ashton v Roko v yarde v Lewington

Will Care start yappy?

Should do Geordie, especially if Farrell is at 10. Care is on fire this season, he's taken his knocks from the past regime and kicked on to come back even better.

He also seems to get the whole Quins team playing for him, you can see the passion, you can't train that.

Any one think that Ashton will get back in the England squad?

Have not seen much rugby since november, but what i have seen Care as been the better 9 than Youngs.

Will it be like it was under Lancaster ( no changes ) to the team/squad that was before Jones took over.

Or will player's be truly picked on Form and Fitness? Rather than on reputation.

Good to hear yappy. I would always prefer Care to Youngs.

Maj, going on the injuries I think Ashton has,to come in. He has huge Haters but noone can query his try scoring if he is given even half a chance.

Either him or Roko will probably start.

I'd take Ashton, pretty simple if he performs and scores then jeep him. If he misses tackles and is crap, replace him.

Not sure Prem rugby is a great guide for England performance (Saracens aside)

Care's club form has never been truly and consistently replicated for country. he and young's have both never really taken possession of the shirt.

Brown is a player who can play poorly for Quins but always seems to perform better for England.

And last but not least Ashton…he's back in contention because of his form but he has never managed to produce that for England due to his weaknesses being exposed at the top level

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I think how we play is possibly more important than results this 6N tbh. If Jones can implement a style and game plan, results will come.

Really?

How we play is more important than winning?

This is pro sport, winning is everything and England more than any other side need to cast of this sort of Stewie talk about how results follow performances (which of course is patently obvious0 and remember that.

The W is ALL that matters.

Gwlad wrote:Not sure Prem rugby is a great guide for England performance (Saracens aside)

Care's club form has never been truly and consistently replicated for country. he and young's have both never really taken possession of the shirt.

Brown is a player who can play poorly for Quins but always seems to perform better for England.

And last but not least Ashton…he's back in contention because of his form but he has never managed to produce that for England due to his weaknesses being exposed at the top level

*Sigh

Anyways. Care was very good the season before last in internationals, and probably only did not get player of the 6N because Brown did. He hasn't been consistent but when he's good he's very good,
Ashton did have an exceptional try scoring record in internationals when he started. I don't want to see him back because even when he has had a chance hes not been great, but he is a record breaking try scorer in European cup matches also. It may be because his kind of game did not fit with the previous regime, and it may also be because some of the other guys who have been available recently for England have been able to make things happen in a way that he does not, but you can't argue with the guy's eye for the try line

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't think any of them are past solid AP players which isn't a bad thing. We want players better than solid for England imo.

Chudley is more than a 'solid' AP player, IMO he's a very good one. Along with Youngs and Care he and Cook from Bath have impressed this season. I'd agree that I don't think he could be a world beater at international level though.

However I think Jones should pick the best on offer, the truth is that after Youngs and Care there is a bit of a gulf to whoever gets picked next.

Dickson and Wigglesworth I'd say are in a similar category to Chudley in that they are good club players who don't quite have what it takes at International level. Difference is they have been given a chance to prove otherwise and haven't. Chudley is younger and should get an opportunity above either. Similarly for Cook but Chudley has performed at his current level for longer.

Simpson is most deserving of the opportunity on long term club performance. His basics have improved but may not be at the level to see him selected though depending on how Jones views things.

Robson needs to claim the Wasps 9 shirt from Simpson. If he can do that then I could rapidly be promoted through the ranks as his basics are very good. Sam Harrison is a similar suggestion there, his basics (especially his pass) are excellent. However if he wants to get a sniff then he will need to displace Youngs at Tigers.

Another English thread that Gwlad can wum and derail....great.

Carlos, you've just picked me up for calling Chudley a solid AP player then kind of backed up my point calling him a good AP player....not really seeing the difference, I meant he's not got that extra quality for International rugby.

Care could not be England captain, he's too tempestuous and not guaranteed his place by a long shot. Care & Youngs both have dips in form on the Int stage, neither are really captain material.

While Jones's stated aim is for England to be "the most dominant team in the world"

Oh dear...that may cause some ructions Ed.

The aim is to win everything obviously, as soon as possible. Every new coach deserves some time though. Even if we play rubbish and actually finish low down in the table the RFU should support Jones' fully and the fans should cut him some slack. I think we'll be fine though.

It's surely going to take some time to get his ideas across and implement some sort of game plan. I think we can write this 6N off in a way and just hope for some improvements in certain aspects of play like; set piece, breakdown, attack. Hopefully in the latter stages we'll see things start to come together and then move towards the Summer.

We still have the players, even with a limited game plan to push this time but yes if the results don't come no need to panic. We still have the option of loading the team with Saracens players, or shock horror keeping the majority of Lancaster's team together to give some continuity.

No 7&1/2 wrote:We still have the players, even with a limited game plan to push this time but yes if the results don't come no need to panic. We still have the option of loading the team with Saracens players, or shock horror keeping the majority of Lancaster's team together to give some continuity.

That second option looks a wee bit harder given the rate at which injuries are piling up... Eddie's going to need a bit of luck, especially in the centres, or he'll end up with the same problem as Lancaster.

Which said, I am expecting continuity, at least for the 6N. Bar Burgess and a couple of fringe players, there wasn't much dissent over Lancaster's squad for the RWC and the problems we had were more down to preparation and tactics than playing personnel. The focus of discussion now is largely one of pragmatism in hanging on to players who won't make 2019 and bringing through new players. Most of the selection discussion is focused on 7 and 12, with a bit of chat about 3 (because of form an injury issues) and 6 (because there are so many good candidates).

Tactically, there's a defensive system that's basically sound, and that should be familiar to Gustard. Eddie will want to bring his own ideas to attack, but again there's the basis of a strong system already in place and he may choose to tweak that rather than replace it in the short term, because changing the attack is hard. The big areas that need attention are the scrum and the breakdown.

Ironically enough, the Guardian has an article today arguing that Robshaw might even retain the captaincy in the short term, because the remaining candidates are either too inexperienced, returning from injury or struggling for form. Not even I am bullish enough about his prospects to believe that will happen... but that it can be considered is an indication that we may not see a radical new era just yet.

There will be nothing else on Eddie's mind except winning against Scotland. If a 30 something player is the best we have at the moment then I expect him to be picked. Likewise if a 19 year old is the best we have. The W is all that matters. Picking the best players right now is all that matters. Looking at the way the AP and English clubs in Europe are going it should be perfectly possible.

Gwlad wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I think how we play is possibly more important than results this 6N tbh. If Jones can implement a style and game plan, results will come.

Really?  

How we play is more important than winning?

This is pro sport, winning is everything and England more than any other side need to cast of this sort of Stewie talk about how results follow performances (which of course is patently obvious0  and remember that.

The W is ALL that matters.

Its not often I agree with a Welsh supporter but this lad is spot on. Its thinking like that "results will come" that got us in to the mess we are in.

Sgt_Pooly wrote: Carlos, you've just picked me up for calling Chudley a solid AP player then kind of backed up my point calling him a good AP player....not really seeing the difference, I meant he's not got that extra quality for International rugby.

Care could not be England captain, he's too tempestuous and not guaranteed his place by a long shot. Care & Youngs both have dips in form on the Int stage, neither are really captain material.

True I'm just being a picky sod by debating between the use of 'solid' and 'good' AP players! It had been a long day...

The point I was more looking at is that if good/solid AP players are the best we currently have as 3rd choice then I don't think he should be discarded due to not being outstanding. As said I think Dickson and Wiggles are also good club players who didn't quite have what it takes for England, but are now older and not performing as well as Chudley IMO. Simpson can be excellent but is flawed and Robson/Harrison have their qualities but need to claim their club shirts first.

Chris Cook is a name which perhaps should be getting mentioned more. He has been performing well for Bath and has a good understanding/partnership with Ford as well.

So we are now without the following for at least the Scotland game

Manu - I certainly wouldn't rush him back
Corbs - Pretty Expected.
Slater
Attwood
Kruis - TBC Concusion Protocols
Launchbury - TBC Concusion Protocols
Slade
Brookes
Ewers
May
Nowell - TBC Extent of injury

That's a pretty impressive effort.

It's not great but ridiculous injury list are now the normal apparently. Even more so in RWC years or following Lions tours.

Of those I reckon that Launchbury, one of Kruis/Slater, one of Nowell/May and one of Manu/Slade could be in a full strength XV. Perhaps both Manu and Slade could start in time with Slade at 10 and Manu at 12. Personally I like how we played in the last 6 Nations with Joseph at 13 so would like to keep that set-up.

Brookes may well have started as well given his good form and Cole struggling to find his best.

If all those are out then the second row cupboard will be barer than hoped! Could mean a welcome opportunity for Kitchener though.

1.Mako 2.George 3.Cole 4.Kitch 5.Lawes 6.Robshaw 7.Kvesic 8.Billy
9.Youngs/Care 10.Farrell 11.Ashton/Roko 12.Barritt 13.Joseph 14.Watson 15.Brown

I'd like one of Ashton or Lewington to be in the side. Players that just seem to score! Especially Lewington - he looks good in a pretty poor LI side and has done since the beginning of last season.

englandglory4ever wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I think how we play is possibly more important than results this 6N tbh. If Jones can implement a style and game plan, results will come.

Really?  

How we play is more important than winning?

This is pro sport, winning is everything and England more than any other side need to cast of this sort of Stewie talk about how results follow performances (which of course is patently obvious0  and remember that.

The W is ALL that matters.

Its not often I agree with a Welsh supporter but this lad is spot on. Its thinking like that "results will come"  that got us in to the mess we are in.

Barnes disagrees with you

'If England aspire to greatness, talents such as Ashton and Cipriani need welcoming into the Jones era,” Barnes wrote in The Times.

If England set their sights on something less ambitious, say a team like Wales, bred to win Six Nations and not a lot else, they are probably luxuries that Jones can do without.'

Lewington is playing really well. May is out long term so presumably wont be considered for the EPS. If Nowell will be back for even the latter half of the tournament I expect he will be included. If he needs an injury replacement then Lewington must be in a pot with Yarde to take that role.

Clifford is once again being talked up by a few papers. Not just as a 7 behind Kvesic but as a possibility on the bench covering the back row. Could he be named along with Robshaw at 6 in the squad I wonder?

I would have no problems with Lewington...

I would have no problems with Clifford.

With the EPS due to be named on Wednesday who fancies making a prediction at the 33 man squad...

1.Mako, Marler, Mullan
2.George, Youngs, Hartley
3.Cole, Thomas
4.Launchbury, Itoje
5.Kruis, Lawes
6.Robshaw, Clifford
7.Kvesic, Fraser
8.Billy, Morgan

9.Youngs, Care, Simpson
10.Farrell, Ford, Cipriani

11.Nowell, Roko
12.Barritt
13.Joseph, Daly
14.Watson, Ashton
15.Brown, Goode

Possible/likely injury replacements: Haywood, Hill, Kitchener, Haskell, Beaumont, Tuilagi, Yarde, Foden/Pennell

That would be my bet.

I reckon that with 12s lacking much impact at current he will take the chance to pick 3 FHs with Farrell being viewed as an option in the centre. I don't want Farrell at 12 but I would pick 3 fly halfs, just at the expense of a winger not a centre. I'd like to see Sam Hill included at centre but I can't quite see it.

I think Hartley will be named even if he isn't fully fit yet. I don't agree with it when Haywood is playing so well but Jones clearly rates Dylan very highly.

In the second row I'd take Kitchener everyday but I have a bad feeling he will just miss out once again. If Kruis or Launchbury need replacements then he will surely be first in line though...

Much of what I am reading atm seems to indicate a starting backrow of:

6 Itoje
7 Kvesic
8 BillyV


and a midfield of:

10 Ford
12 Farrell
13 Joseph

Most of what I've read seems to be expecting Robshaw at 6 LT? I think a fair few people are expecting Itoje on the bench covering second row with a view to him getting a chance in both positions as the tournament goes on.

It does seem that Farrell is being viewed as a 12 option however. I don't like Faz in the centre as he simply doesn't offer much of a threat himself when running at a defence. Depending on what game plan is employed I guess Jones could get it working though.

A few things I've read seem to imply that Jones is keen to move on from Barritt but Gustard is remaining staunchly and understandably in favour of his linchpin. I'd be very surprised if he isn't in the EPS for the 6 Nations but it does suggest that he may be moved on fairly swiftly as others come through.

King carlos I would be happy with that EPS except for 12.

Farrell at 12 is also a big no from me.

As for Barritt, England do need to move on. Of course I like him but if England want to be strong all round (not just defence) then England need someone else.

Personally I would pick 2 10s - Ford and Farrell, put in Hill and Barritt as the 12s.

beshocked wrote:King carlos I would be happy with that EPS except for 12.

Farrell at 12 is also a big no from me.

As for Barritt, England do need to move on. Of course I like him but if England want to be strong all round (not just defence) then England need someone else.

Personally I would pick 2 10s - Ford and Farrell, put in Hill and Barritt as the 12s.

I agree, until someone else puts their hand up then Barritt has to be in

BamBam wrote:

beshocked wrote:King carlos I would be happy with that EPS except for 12.

Farrell at 12 is also a big no from me.

As for Barritt, England do need to move on. Of course I like him but if England want to be strong all round (not just defence) then England need someone else.

Personally I would pick 2 10s - Ford and Farrell, put in Hill and Barritt as the 12s.

I agree, until someone else puts their hand up then Barritt has to be in

I agree with both of you on Farrell at 12. From what the papers are whispering (and this close to announcements they are often right with English rugby) it sounds like Jones is keen to play a more attacking 10, i.e. Ford or Cipriani, but still very much wants Farrell involved. As such I think we could see him at 12.

I don't like it but I can see the logic. If he goes down that route then he is going to need lots of strong carriers in the forwards to get over the gain line.

A winger who can come in field and gain yards in traffic will be necessary as well. Nowell is a big loss in that regard. Yarde or Roko would have the power to crash over the gain line but would need to be encouraged to do so as often as needed.

From the rugby blog -
Eddie Jones will face the first real test of his England career this Wednesday, when he announces his first England Elite Player Squad. Under the RFU rules, Jones can make 10 changes from the 33 man squad (31 + two on stand-by) named by Stuart Lancaster for the World Cup, but has one additional space free after Sam Burgess’s defection back to rugby league.

It is unlikely that he will make as many as 11 changes. Jones has not been here for long and to overhaul the squad having seen so little of his charges playing would represent quite a gamble. But there will at least be a handful – here are the ones we would recommend.

N.B. Jones will also name a Saxons squad (despite them having no fixtures) from which players can be called into the EPS squad later in the year.

Interestingly the DoRs told Jones they were happy for him to start from scratch and make as many changes as he wants - just so long as they know and can plan.

king carlos I agree the problem with Farrell in the centres was on show in the RWC. Would worry me if Eddie Jones and co ignore that.

It's not just his lack of threat with ball in hand. It's his defence in the centres which I think is the problem.

Farrell is a big 10 but would be a small centre, making it easier for opposition to overpower him or exploit his relative lack of pace. You negate his strengths and expose his weaknesses at centre in my opinion.

king_carlos wrote:Most of what I've read seems to be expecting Robshaw at 6 LT?

Even if we ignore the likes of Stephen Jones and Stuart Barnes in yesterdays ST (and frankly why would we not ignore them) reporters for the Torygraph and Mail - two papers that always had an inside line on squads under the last regime, seem to be suggesting that robshaw will be out completely from the squad, but both Itoje and Clifford in as back rowers.

We shall all find out the truth on Wednesday.

Got to say I think it would be very harsh on Robshaw to miss out.

As a 6 option I believe he still has a lot to offer.

Mail - in their article in which Clifford is thought to start (which, at 7, is not a good idea, IMO)

"If Clifford does start in the No 7 jersey for England — with Robshaw expected to shift to No 6 — there will be increased scrutiny on his work at the breakdown."

Implies Robshaw at 6 in their view

Stephen Jones, I literally could not care less about his opinion unless he were called Jeremy Hunt.

The ES, Independent and Guardian all have him in, Guardian still as captain, a bit oddly

Itoje, btw, with Launchbury a doubt, is gonna be playing lock

Telegraph, in their premature building up of Clifford - "If Clifford appears to be the coming man, Conor O’Shea, Harlequins’ director of rugby, maintains that Robshaw should also remain a key influence in Jones’s new-look squad"