England Squad for the 6N 2016 #2

First topic message reminder :

Well, the dust is settling on our early exit, time to concentrate on the next disappointment.

We obviously have no idea who the Head Coach or team will be at this current point, but we can take a stab at the potential squad going into the 6N.

2 games into the AP season, who's looking impressive? Who can come in under the radar and steal a spot? Are any of the disappointing WC squad going to grab the bull by the horns and actually impress! Who should be captain? What could or starting 23 be? Do we starting blooding for 2019 now?

He was also Telegraph's Blindside flanker of the week

ChequeredJersey wrote:He was also Telegraph's Blindside flanker of the week

There is a difference though between whether they think he should play, and whether they are hearing he may not.

Of course at the rate locks are dropping we may end up with an Itoje/Wilson second row freeing up the 6 jersey

Itoje is going to start with Kruis at lock, I think.

Against Scotland, depending on fitness, I would start:

15- Brown
14- Watson
13- Daly
12- Twelvetrees
11- Ashton
10 - Farrell
9- Care (I suspect Youngs has pinched it with the last game though)
8- Vunipola
7- Kvesic
6- Robshaw
5- Launchbury/Itoje if not fit
4- Kruis/Lawes or Kitchener if not fit
3- Cole
2- Hartley (c)/George if Hartley still struggling post concussion. Back up captain candidates - Launchbury, Robshaw, Itoje, Care, Youngs all for the short term - we can always change captains!
1- Vunipola

Bench - Marler, George (Youngs), Hill?, Itoje (Lawes/Kitchener), Morgan (though if Clifford benches, I can see the benefit in that), Youngs (or Care), Cipriani (not adverse to Ford though), Joseph

I just don't get the outright antipathy to Farrell as a centre.

He played there quite successfully outside Ford in age grade rugby and while it would take a bit of adaptation he has played centre a fair bit for Saracens. I think, given the lack of other candidates, it's worth looking at.

"Farrell is a big 10 but would be a small centre" - Google lists him as 1.88m and 96kg. It also lists:
Daly 1.84m 92kg
Slade 1.88m 92kg
Barritt 1.85m 96kg
Hill 1.84m 100kg
Twelvetrees 1.93m 100kg
Burrell 1.91m 104kg
Tuilagi 1.85m 110kg.

OK, so he's smaller than Tuilagi, but then nearly everyone is. But he's similar in size to most of the rest; he looks quite skinny because he's taller than most, but he's not lacking in bulk.

As an attacking threat, he's not a top class runner, but then neither is Barritt. The important thing in a 12 is that they can hold the opposition defensive line from drifting, but there's more than one way to do that. A 12 who can kick or pass can hold the opposition just as well as a bulldozer.

That's not to say that Farrell would be ideal in the role. His approach to tackling looks likely to get him into trouble sooner rather than later, and it's not clear how easily he'd adapt - but I wouldn't rule it out out of hand.

At the moment he's the form 10 though

The Daly stats look a little optimistic.

Of course, Youngs/Care, Ford/Cips, Farrell, Daly and Brown at FB can actually play a number of ways - Farrell at 12 HAS worked from a playmaking view in some games, and 13 plus back 3 can run good lines off that. And it can win most kicking battles

Sgt_Pooly wrote:The Daly stats look a little optimistic.

I agree he looks lighter than that

Farrell is next to no threat in attack, which means if he plays at 12 that the next guy in line (Daly or JJ) gets double teamed and may struggle to produce the kind of impact we'd like.

Farrell as an emergency (replacement) 12 OK but otherwise it doesn't work for me. I don't think the U20's when he played at 12 are a good indication either.

Having said that the choice for 12 is not easy at all.

Farrell's running game and passing game this season have been a big step up from previously, for Sarries, IMO. Though, at 10.

And with Barritt outside him :o

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:The Daly stats look a little optimistic.

I agree he looks lighter than that

I'm pretty sure Wasps added 10kg to his stats over one summer. You wouldn't put him at the same weight as Slade, especially as Slade is taller.

LondonTiger wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:He was also Telegraph's Blindside flanker of the week

There is a difference though between whether they think he should play, and whether they are hearing he may not.

Of course at the rate locks are dropping we may end up with an Itoje/Wilson second row freeing up the 6 jersey

I see what you did there

GeordieFalcon wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:He was also Telegraph's Blindside flanker of the week

There is a difference though between whether they think he should play, and whether they are hearing he may not.

Of course at the rate locks are dropping we may end up with an Itoje/Wilson second row freeing up the 6 jersey

I see what you did there

Back to the everyone is a no.6 tactic of Lancaster's?

LondonTiger wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:He was also Telegraph's Blindside flanker of the week

There is a difference though between whether they think he should play, and whether they are hearing he may not.

Of course at the rate locks are dropping we may end up with an Itoje/Wilson second row freeing up the 6 jersey

As ive just posted on the club threads...Eddie Jones would be utterly stupid to not start v Scotland with Robshaw at 6.

Robshaw is proven class!

Then if Launchbury, SLater, Attwood, and Kruis are all out...

4 Kitchener
5 Wilson...ahem sorry I meant Itoje

One thing I hope they players take notice is that Eddie Jones saying that the players will pick themselves. If they don't get picked it means they haven't done a good enough job. Take note Burrell.

munkian wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I think how we play is possibly more important than results this 6N tbh. If Jones can implement a style and game plan, results will come.

Really?  

How we play is more important than winning?

This is pro sport, winning is everything and England more than any other side need to cast of this sort of Stewie talk about how results follow performances (which of course is patently obvious0  and remember that.

The W is ALL that matters.

Its not often I agree with a Welsh supporter but this lad is spot on. Its thinking like that "results will come"  that got us in to the mess we are in.

Barnes disagrees with you

'If England aspire to greatness, talents such as Ashton and Cipriani need welcoming into the Jones era,” Barnes wrote in The Times.

If England set their sights on something less ambitious, say a team like Wales, bred to win Six Nations and not a lot else, they are probably luxuries that Jones can do without.'

So Ashton is a talent again. PLLLLLLLLEASE pick him!!!!  

I would suggest that if Eddie wants a crack at greatness he work on the foundations first.

England won an RWC after a Grand Slam. (I am sure you're all aware)

I'd suggest they need to start consistently Winning the 6 Nations and then consider competing for the big prize (well by necessity because they have to wait until 2019)

Right now they are back in Rugby 101 and they need to regard this annual competition as their objective, dull as it is and strangely devalued by large sectors of fans and press in recent year (one can only wonder why?)

Thanks god for that ignore button Now I don't have to read the constant trolling of English threads, what a great start to the day.....

For once I agree with Gwlad
As a team with all new coaches England are at square one again and need to build from there. Jones has plenty of talent at his disposal and will build something good.

Quote: The players select themselves because they express themselves in a way that I can see them being a profitable part of a winning England team."

While Jones's stated aim is for England to be "the most dominant team in the world", he admits they must understand the "meat and potatoes" of the game first.

Snap Pooly!

Let's hope nobody quotes him!

Poorfour wrote:I just don't get the outright antipathy to Farrell as a centre.

He played there quite successfully outside Ford in age grade rugby and while it would take a bit of adaptation he has played centre a fair bit for Saracens. I think, given the lack of other candidates, it's worth looking at.

"Farrell is a big 10 but would be a small centre" - Google lists him as 1.88m and 96kg. It also lists:
Daly 1.84m 92kg
Slade 1.88m 92kg
Barritt 1.85m 96kg
Hill 1.84m 100kg
Twelvetrees 1.93m 100kg
Burrell 1.91m 104kg
Tuilagi 1.85m 110kg.

OK, so he's smaller than Tuilagi, but then nearly everyone is. But he's similar in size to most of the rest; he looks quite skinny because he's taller than most, but he's not lacking in bulk.

As an attacking threat, he's not a top class runner, but then neither is Barritt. The important thing in a 12 is that they can hold the opposition defensive line from drifting, but there's more than one way to do that. A 12 who can kick or pass can hold the opposition just as well as a bulldozer.

That's not to say that Farrell would be ideal in the role. His approach to tackling looks likely to get him into trouble sooner rather than later, and it's not clear how easily he'd adapt - but I wouldn't rule it out out of hand.

Just because Farrell Jr has played centre at U20s and Saracens doesn't mean he should be picked there for England. I get annoyed every single time he's shunted into the centre because I don't think he's good enough in that position. I feel like his poor form for England at centre is proof of that.

He's still a small centre when compared to the likes of Burrell,Twelvetrees and Tuilagi. He doesn't have the pace to make up for a lack of bulk.

Someone like Daly has pace and elusiveness that Farrell lacks which makes up for Daly's lack of bulk. Though I still am unsure about Daly, particularly in regards to his defence.

Barritt is much more of a leader, particularly in defence. Farrell technique at the times is questionable, getting the timing wrong, he's been fortunate not to be in more discipline hot water. I would say he's got away with it a few times. Plus I think he can be a bit petulant.

Barritt vs Farrell for the 12 shirt I would pick Barritt every single time as Saracens do.

nathan wrote:One thing I hope they players take notice is that Eddie Jones saying that the players will pick themselves. If they don't get picked it means they haven't done a good enough job. Take note Burrell.

The amount of injuries, the team will pick it self...

beshocked wrote:Just because Farrell Jr has played centre at U20s and Saracens doesn't mean he should be picked there for England. I get annoyed every single time he's shunted into the centre because I don't think he's good enough in that position. I feel like his poor form for England at centre is proof of that.

He's still a small centre when compared to the likes of Burrell,Twelvetrees and Tuilagi. He doesn't have the pace to make up for a lack of bulk.

Someone like Daly has pace and elusiveness that Farrell lacks which makes up for Daly's lack of bulk. Though I still am unsure about Daly, particularly in regards to his defence.

Barritt is much more of a leader, particularly in defence. Farrell technique at the times is questionable, getting the timing wrong, he's been fortunate not to be in more discipline hot water. I would say he's got away with it a few times. Plus I think he can be a bit petulant.

Barritt vs Farrell for the 12 shirt I would pick Barritt every single time as Saracens do.

Fair enough, beshocked, you've seen more of him at centre than I have. And I'd agree he's materially smaller than Burrell or Tuilagi - but he's listed as the same weight as Barritt. I was just trying to make the point that dismissing him as a centre for being lightweight isn't a valid argument. I also think that in the right gameplan he could work (and has in the past, albeit not at senior level) - just as Ashton worked well in Johnson's gameplan but not in Lancaster's.

Personally, I don't have any objection to Barritt at all, provided a) he's in form and b) there's creativity elsewhere in the midfield. I don't like combinations like Youngs / Farrell / Burgess / Barritt or Youngs / Farrell / Barritt / Burrell, but Care / Farrell / Barritt / Joseph or even Care / Farrell / Barritt / Tuilagi could work.

gregortree wrote:For once I agree with Gwlad
As a team with all new coaches England are at square one again and need to build from there. Jones has plenty of talent at his disposal and will build something good.

Quote: The players select themselves because they express themselves in a way that I can see them being a profitable part of a winning England team."

While Jones's stated aim is for England to be "the most dominant team in the world", he admits they must understand the "meat and potatoes" of the game first.

Gwlad is actually one of the more insightful posters on here when he forgets to be an outright WUM.

That's a good turn of phrase. I really don't think Eddie has all that much to do to get England firing on all cylinders. Tighten up the scrum, pick the right personnel to sharpen up the breakdown and find a backline that balances creativity with solidity - and then add a bit of bloody mindedness.

gregortree wrote:...As a team with all new coaches England are at square one again...

Jones is starting at square one but the England team isn't new to international rugby. We didn't get much of a return on the last four years but it would be daft to act as if they had no meaning at all. Michael Cheika demonstrated how you can take a misfiring team and quickly point it in the right direction without a total overhaul in personnel. That's the kind of job we ought to want Jones to do.

Poorfour

I agree completely.
Theres not a huge amount to "fix". Just get the set pieces back to how they were working, and continue to work on using the backs.

Lancaster and Co really shot themselves in the foot in this world cup. They surely must look back and this...what the hell did we do.

They lost sight of what they were doing well..lineout etc to accommodate "athleticism", yet were "out-athleticed" and out muscled by both Wales and Australia

Poorfour perhaps he is the same weight as Barritt but I feel like Barritt is more of a warrior than Farrell. Plus Barritt is a leader for Saracens, Farrell is petulant and a bit hot headed though I think he's a decent 10 when in form.

Sometimes I feel like Farrell is like a bully because he is a big 10. He is big for that position can physically hold his own against opposition but if he's put in a position like centre his strengths are mitigated.

I wouldn't pick Barritt ideally at 13 either.

Have to utilise a players' strengths and balance a team.

How has Barritt been playing. And is he fit.

He was just recovering from injury (like so many) in the WC and really didn't do himself any justice at all.

BUT if hes playing like the Barritt we know...limited but consistent and effective, then with Slade etc out, and if we play Ford then Barritt must start.

I would still be interested in seeing what young Hill could bring to the party.

The cupboards pretty bare after that.

In my opinon Burrell can join Twelvetrees in the "thanks but no thanks list"

Think if Barritt is there Goode or Daly become essential.

The thought of Barritt & Goode in the same side gives me nightmares.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Poorfour

I agree completely.
Theres not a huge amount to "fix". Just get the set pieces back to how they were working, and continue to work on using the backs.

Lancaster and Co really shot themselves in the foot in this world cup. They surely must look back and this...what the hell did we do.

They lost sight of what they were doing well..lineout etc to accommodate "athleticism", yet were "out-athleticed" and out muscled by both Wales and Australia

From the interviews he has given it seems that Jones agrees that there isn't a huge amount to 'fix'.

I reckon he will want his side to play with a very high ball in play time.

When it comes to the line-out I think he will be looking to get the ball in and out quickly. It looks like whoever is at 6 will be a 3rd jumper at best. As such I reckon the line-outs will be kept very simple with the onus on getting set-up very quickly to get the ball in and out.

When using the maul I hope it will be a case of 'if we get it moving forward quickly then keep it moving' if not then get the ball out and reset. I expect that Borthwick will also be keen for his line-out to use secondary/shift mauls where they look to move the ball quickly from the jumper to another pod. Both are things I am very much in favour of.

I think the scrum will follow the same formula. Jones is too pragmatic to want the ball kept in once won to try to get a shove on. It so often makes the result a lottery due to reffing interpretations. If the scrum is moving forward early then he will be happy to keep it in. If things are static then I hope players will be told not to mess around hoping to get a shove on and rather get the ball out.

Japans scrum made great use of old fashioned 'route one ball' where they looked to get the ball to the number 8s feet as quick as possible then allow the 8 to make the pass out himself. It prevented sides getting much of a shove on if the scrum is under pressure. It also rarely gave the opposition 9 time to get round and be a pain in the ar** at the base.

To make this even slicker in the RWC Mafi often even set-up between his left-side lock and flanker rather than between his two second rows so that he was directly in the channel the ball should be hooked down. It's a tactic I hadn't seen for a long time and was delighted to see brought back so effectively. It does of course rely on your hooker hooking though...

Again due to Eddies pragmatism, expect that players will be told to play from their own half very little. Especially in the likely conditions. Thankfully he also isn't the sort to suffer aimless kicking so I expect that there will be several kickers across the backline (perhaps why Farrell might be viewed as a 12) with a view to either kicking short and contesting or finding touch.

Well does anyone really expect any big surprises in the squad tomorrow.

I certainy don't. Maybe the odd wild card...Lewington a possibility etc

I suspect to see Kvesic, Clifford, Itoje etc all in the squad.

Weird that the squad hasn't been leaked yet like it was in the Lancaster era...

Was it Lancaster doing the leaking?

Yeah, I wonder if that has been snapped shut straight away. No leaks anymore.

The Telegraph is usually the one that nails it. They DEFO had insider info.

There have already been many articles stating certain players are likely to be involved yappy.

Farrell being viewed at 12 has come from those. Clifford being as high in Jones thoughts as he seems as well.

Wait until after midday and I expect a predicted/possible squad will be named by certain papers (Torygraph) which will be only a name or two off. That's how the 'leaks' came out under Johnson as well as Bomber. A few articles here and there in the fortnight leading up to the announcement who suggest certain players and ideas, then a full predicted squad from someone who has heard some whispers from the camp.

Whats the squad number....33?

Fancy a go at naming it?

Yep 33 GF I put mine in the last page but am tempted to make an alteration at flanker...

1.Mako, Marler, Mullan
2.George, Youngs, Hartley
3.Cole, Thomas
4.Launchbury, Itoje
5.Kruis, Lawes
6.Robshaw, Clifford
7.Kvesic, Fraser
8.Billy, Morgan

9.Youngs, Care, Simpson
10.Farrell, Ford, Cipriani

11.Nowell, Roko
12.Barritt
13.Joseph, Daly
14.Watson, Ashton
15.Brown, Goode

Possible/likely injury replacements: Haywood/Taylor, Hill, Kitchener, Haskell, Beaumont, Tuilagi, Yarde, Foden/Pennell

That's what I predicted the other day but I'm not certain that Jones will want 3 new flankers out of 4. As such I could see Clifford being named at 7 with Haskell retaining his place at blindside.

Prior the the 6 Nations there are always guys called up to the first camp who aren't in the EPS. The most important of those will be the 6th prop (the EPS should include 6 anyway). I reckon this will see young Paul Hill called up to train given we are struggling a bit at TH.

If we lose a 4th centre to get 3 fly halves in then I wouldn't be surprised if an extra 12 was asked to train to see how they look in the new systems. Perhaps this could be Sam Hill? Tuilagi may well be called into the camp for a day or two even if he misses the initial EPS as well - although I'd rather he was left out of considerations at the moment.

Geordiefalcon Barritt is fit, as for how he is playing, can't say I have seen too much of him, he's never been a player who stands out in terms of performance but he's been a key leader and inspiration particularly for Saracens (he wasn't in the RWC admittedly but of course at times he played at 13 and question marks over his overall fitness). His warrior persona was also respected by Lancaster.

I am sure his defensive organisation and leadership was missed vs Quins. IMO the first choice Saracens centre combo is Barritt/Taylor, much better balanced than Taylor/Bosch IMO.

I want to see Nick Tompkins getting more game time which I hope he will if Barritt and Taylor are picked by England and Scotland respectively.

Ah so you did...

Right my attempt. The problem is tomorrow I might pick a different one...pah.

1.Mako, Marler, Mullan
2.George, Youngs, Hartley
3.Cole, Thomas, Wilson
4.Launchbury, Itoje
5.Kruis, Lawes
6.Robshaw, Clifford
7.Kvesic, Fraser
8.Billy, Morgan
19

9.Youngs, Care,
10.Farrell, Ford, Cipriani

11.Nowell, Roko
12.Barritt, Hill
13.Joseph, Daly
14.Watson, Ashton/ Lewington (Undecided)
15.Brown,
14

1 full back is an interesting call GF. Do you think Jones will consider Watson there or just be safe in the knowledge he can call up a replacement if needed? I feel it's more likely he will lose a winger than 15.

Youngs and Care as the only 9s is a possibility given they are well ahead of the rest. I hadn't thought of it actually as I rate a few of the other options highly. Perhaps he will use that as the means to make space for the Cipriani?

Yeah, Nowell (if fit ) or Watson can cover 15.

But you maybe right...he may elect to go with 3 wingers and have JJ or Daly cover wing.

But then...Tommy Taylor the Sale hooker has impressed. (19 tackles at the weekend)

Hayward the Saints hooker has impressed.

Its a difficult one.

Daly is a brilliant option on the bench if Joseph hits full fitness and form.

Much of what Bomber did during his tenure I wasn't much of a critic of until the RWC with our powerless forwards and limited game plan. One thing I never liked was his use of the bench. Too often it was unbalanced, lacking impact and over reliant on scripted changes. Hopefully we will see an improvement there.

Youngs/Hartley, Marler, Thomas, Itoje, Clifford, Care, Ford, Daly

A bench such as that would finally offer the potential needed to change a game if needed.

king carlos agree with most of that.

Haskell,Wood and Tuilagi would be big absentees. Not saying I would pick them this time round but still they are big names that could miss out.

It does seem that 13s seem to be an easier position to fill than 12 - Joseph,Tuilagi,Daly,Burrell for example.

I see Hartley is favourite for the captaincy.

Coming from the Telegraph today....guess that's it set.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I see Hartley is favourite for the captaincy.

Coming from the Telegraph today....guess that's it set.

I know he's been carrying a knock on the ribs but he is under a lot of pressure from Hayward in his own team let alone the England one.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/12093602/Eddie-Jones-has-just-one-brief-when-he-names-his-first-England-elite-player-squad-win-trophies.html

There will be no cosy chats, no advice sought, no consensual hookup. This is the Jones era. There is a belief that English players are not fit enough, even not feisty and imposing enough. All that is about to change.

That is exactly what I think of the England forwards currently.

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I see Hartley is favourite for the captaincy.

Coming from the Telegraph today....guess that's it set.

I know he's been carrying a knock on the ribs but he is under a lot of pressure from Hayward in his own team let alone the England one.

Yeah he was out for concusion and also a rib injury. But you are correct Hayward has been very good...

Apparently Jones wants someone confrontational and in your face as Captain.

GeordieFalcon wrote:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/12093602/Eddie-Jones-has-just-one-brief-when-he-names-his-first-England-elite-player-squad-win-trophies.html

There will be no cosy chats, no advice sought, no consensual hookup. This is the Jones era. There is a belief that English players are not fit enough, even not feisty and imposing enough. All that is about to change.

That is exactly what I think of the England forwards currently.

The inclusion of youngsters looking to prove themselves such as Kvesic, Clifford and Itoje will help with the the fitness and aggression immediately. In terms of being more imposing the set-piece needs to first be sorted. Guys can be as imposing as they like in terms of physicality and size but if we don't have a platform to launch runners from in attack or our bigger tacklers are being forced to defend whilst going backwards then they won't be imposing.

Re-develop that set-piece solidity and front 5 players such as the Vunipolas, Jamie George, Launchbury, Slater and Itoje will suddenly be much more imposing as runners. Especially if we can build a pack with more carriers in it so that the opposition can't easily double up on our Billy/Morgan as our one means of getting over the gain line.