England Squad for the 6N 2016 #2

First topic message reminder :

Well, the dust is settling on our early exit, time to concentrate on the next disappointment.

We obviously have no idea who the Head Coach or team will be at this current point, but we can take a stab at the potential squad going into the 6N.

2 games into the AP season, who's looking impressive? Who can come in under the radar and steal a spot? Are any of the disappointing WC squad going to grab the bull by the horns and actually impress! Who should be captain? What could or starting 23 be? Do we starting blooding for 2019 now?

Hartley needs to find form and fitness quickly then. Otherwise he'll be one of those captains that's only in the team because he's the captain. Not good for the squad.

Couldn't Jones just leave picking the captain for a week or two, or even until the first game.

If Jones is that certain he wants Hartley as his skipper then he could name Hartley in the EPS and as captain but not select him for Scotland if he's not fully fit?

Captains being rested and other leaders given the armband for a game isn't uncommon, although it would feel odd if Hartley missed his first game after being named captain. If he isn't being selected due to fitness rather than another guy being first choice then it isn't such an issue. I'd rather the coaches be honest, state he isn't fit enough for international and let him get an extra game for Saints than rush him in for the sake of the armband.

If whoever starts instead then plays well enough to deserve to keep the shirt then it could become a more difficult situation though.

Personally I'd rather he just pick his starting XV then his captain.

The Telegraph have actually gone for each of their pundits listing their proposed Ins and Outs from the squad, with the closest they get to consensus being multiple votes for Daly, Itoje and Clifford to be included, multiple votes for Hartley to be captain and multiple votes for Webber, Easter and (surprisingly) Wood to be dropped. Also one vote for Barritt to go...

I'm not sure to what extent things are actually leaked, as opposed to the journos being aware of things that we aren't. I'm pretty sure that the accuracy of the RWC squad predictions was down to having been able to watch the combinations in training rather than leaks.

Personally at the moment Jamie George is ahead of him. Youngs is, Hayward is...Tommy Taylor is.

All those hookers have been playing very well.

I wonder if the Telegraph mole has been flushed out with the Lancaster regime, hope so.

If I was to pick a XV today it would be:

1.Vunipola
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Launchbury
5.Kruis
6.Robshaw
7.Kvesic
8.Vunipola

9.Care
10.Cipriani

11.Nowell
12.Barritt
13.Joseph
14.Watson
15.Brown

Only contentious pick being Cipriani...I think he deserves a shot, he was brilliant when he last had a chance in white before the RWC.

Form is temporary class is permanent.  And to be fair to Hartley he hasn't been fit since the enforced rest from his ban to really get a run of games.  For me our performances in the world cup did show that we were lacking when we played Youngs and Webber - a case of you only really appreciate what someone does when they are not there.

The position of captain in rugby is seen as very important - which of the major countries does not have an appointed captain that they stick with?  The idea of captaincy by committee is not one to be considered, and passing the captaincy around between senior players is no good.  Add to that the lack of alternatives and Robshaw's well documented captaincy catastrophes, then if Hartley is fit I can't see any other alternative at the moment.  I am sure Jones wants to pick a new captain, if only to signal a fresh start from the disaster of the world cup. It doesn't mean that he will take the team onto the next world cup, but the team does need to move on.

mid_gen I agreed with everything until I got to 12.  Barritt has shown that he is an honest decent player, but not a top international player.  We wasted caps on Twelvetrees, Burrell, Burgess, etc and I would prefer to see someone new given the chance.  They may in any event just be keeping the shirt warm until Manu is fully fit, but I would like to see Daly now whilst he is in form and still relatively young.

The other thing is that there are question marks fitness wise over a number of those players, so it makes a bit of a mockery of our selection discussion if say Kruis and Nowell were injured and not avialable.  It is the nature of the game for players to get injured, but it does seem to be England's turn to have a bad run at the moment.

Don't forget Launchbury NLp...concussion protocols for him as well.

nlpnlp wrote:mid_gen I agreed with everything until I got to 12.  Barritt has shown that he is an honest decent player, but not a top international player.  We wasted caps on Twelvetrees, Burrell, Burgess, etc and I would prefer to see someone new given the chance.  They may in any event just be keeping the shirt warm until Manu is fully fit, but I would like to see Daly now whilst he is in form and still relatively young.

I was scratching my head a bit at 12 admittedly....Daly's usually 13? Where has Nowell been slotting in at centre, 12 or 13?

Nowell is on crutches Gen. So wont be slotting in anywhere

Id be looking at Exeter team mate Sam Hill at 12

I can't believe there's so many calling for Barritt again.

He is the luckiest player out there! Painfully average, slow with a poor pass, no step and no kicking game but he can tackle very well. And people seem to love him. Might as well stick Robshaw at 12 at least he can pass.

We need to grow a pair and move away from this obsession with an average player we know and fear of good players we don't.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Nowell is on crutches Gen. So wont be slotting in anywhere

Id be looking at Exeter team mate Sam Hill at 12

Nowell's injury is not as bad as feared - unlikely to be training this week, so hopefully back for the following week, but no return date given.

Sam Hill's struggling to get over an ankle problem too. 3 weeks out already and not fit for this weekend.

nlpnlp wrote:mid_gen I agreed with everything until I got to 12. Barritt has shown that he is an honest decent player, but not a top international player. We wasted caps on Twelvetrees, Burrell, Burgess, etc and I would prefer to see someone new given the chance. They may in any event just be keeping the shirt warm until Manu is fully fit, but I would like to see Daly now whilst he is in form and still relatively young.

The other thing is that there are question marks fitness wise over a number of those players, so it makes a bit of a mockery of our selection discussion if say Kruis and Nowell were injured and not avialable. It is the nature of the game for players to get injured, but it does seem to be England's turn to have a bad run at the moment.

Daly at 12 nlpnlp? I rate him very highly but wouldn't want to see that.

Daly is a much better defender at 13 than many give him credit for but this is due to his pace rather than tackling. He is so quick (especially of the mark) that he can hang tighter to his 12 for longer then push out late. It makes it more difficult for his opposition to attack up the middle and also makes defending easier for his winger as he has the pace to cover outside backs without the winger getting isolated as often as he might with a slower 13.

We saw in the RWC that defending in the 13 channel required pace as much (if not more) than physicality in contact. Barritt is a fantastic tackler and excellent positionally but simply isn't quick enough to cover outside backs. As such he got exploited there.

Daly at 12 would see the same happen in reverse. Whilst his pace makes him a useful defender at 13, although he can and should still get better, at inside centre this would be nullified and his lack of size and physicality likely found out.

With the absence of Ewers and the injury to "enforcer" type locks (Slater, Atwood), I wonder if Garvey might come into the picture, selected for the squad at 6. He was immense at Toulon at the weekend, but no one seems to be mentioning him.

BTW just catching the premiership highlights did Manu look extremely fat and unfit? Certainly looked very large. I would guess some way to go to regain match fitness. Include in the squad, but not for the initial rounds.

He did look quite rotund.

Though he looked positively svelte compared to Andy Goode.

Corbisiero has also left Northampton with immediate effect.

I know he said he was going to take a year off, but is this the start of his move away from rugby for good? Certainly can't blame him with all of injury problems.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35296471

Eddie Jones starting XV for Scotland:

Vunipola
Hartley
Du Plessis
Lees
Armand
Vunipola
Harrison
Waldrom
Simpson
Steenson
Rokoduguni
Barritt
Tuilagi
Yarde
Abendanon

What is that LT ?

gregortree wrote:What is that LT ?

Just me upset about a couple of papers suggesting Petrus du Plessis and Mitch Lees should be considered - so going for the full overseas route.

Who's pushing for Du Plessis? Jones or some other hack who's given up on resumed articles to for easy route of lazy click bait?

yappysnap wrote:Who's pushing for Du Plessis? Jones or some other hack who's given up on resumed articles to for easy route of lazy click bait?

Torygraph and Grauniad give "young" Petrus honourable mentions.

They effectively say that if there is a complete clean sheet, then form should over-ride everything else and thus the likes of Lees and du Plessis should be considered - before going on to describe them as journeymen.

So yes - clickbait really.

LondonTiger wrote:So yes - clickbait really.

Thank goodness. Thought you might have been Jones' chairman of selectors for a horrible moment.

LondonTiger wrote:Eddie Jones starting XV for Scotland:

Vunipola
Hartley
Du Plessis
Lees
Armand
Vunipola
Harrison
Waldrom
Simpson
Steenson
Rokoduguni
Barritt
Tuilagi
Yarde
Abendanon

How did you forget O'Connor at 7?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Eddie Jones starting XV for Scotland:

Vunipola
Hartley
Du Plessis
Lees
Armand
Vunipola
Harrison
Waldrom
Simpson
Steenson
Rokoduguni
Barritt
Tuilagi
Yarde
Abendanon

How did you forget O'Connor at 7?

He's injured

Is he? Oh I didn't hear about that one.

http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/Exeter-Chiefs-Sam-Hill-tipped-picked-new-England/story-28511260-detail/story.html#ixzz3x3v8vP9M

Not sure how reliable but:

Brad Barritt, Tom Wood, Joe Marler, Exeter's Geoff Parling and Richard Wigglesworth all to miss out completely. Hartley Captain seems to be the common theme, but Robshaw definitely in at 6.

Farrell definitely in at 12, with Ford at 10 and JJ / Daly covering the 13 spot.

Manu also to be selected in the squad.

Itoje, Clifford, Beaumont and Sam Hill all selected aswell, along with Ashton and Roko as wingers.

BBC have either used the same writer or have the same brief word for word.

Is that right...ill have a look

I see what you mean...

When Lancaster took over the England camp. he had a clear out. Is Jones doing the same, or is he making a statement to all English players, pull your sock up or else?

So Mako, Mullan, Waller as loosehead options? Or just two of them?

Dropping Marler seems a bad call to me

IF and its a big if (until we see the squad) some of those changes are correct , then it seems to me they are players who can makes things happen ball in hand. Not just grafters.

Clifford, Itoje, Daly, Ashton (for all his haters), even Beaumont (though I'm not sure hes warrented a call up) can all run with the ball and make things happen.

Who would you guys choose at 13. JJ or Daly?
I have a suspicion we may see Daly at 13 out side Farrell at 12 against Scotland.

Looks like Manu could be back for the last two games of the six nations according to the telegraph

www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/12096327/Six-Nations-2016-Eddie-Jones-to-name-seven-new-faces-in-first-England-squad.html

Looks like they have the squad

Yeah, and I think that's daft Nathan.

Why the hell rush him when we have JJ and Daly

What does Kvesic have to do??

GeordieFalcon wrote:What does Kvesic have to do??

I was surprised by that omission, unless it's because he has limited changes.

Well Eddie knows the breakdown so he must be satisfied with those in the squad...and none of us would have issues with Fraser...hes class.

Interesting Paul Hill is straight in at TH.

What as Tom Wood done to be deselected?

Robshaw is at 6...and Clifford is the x-factor to come on when the game is broken up.

Also I suppose Itoje can cover 6 if we need a lineout option at 6.

No Cipriani surprises me and no Kitchener. To be fair no Barritt surprises me pleasantly as well.

nathan wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:What does Kvesic have to do??

I was surprised by that omission, unless it's because he has limited changes.

While he is technically limited to 11 changes, if he plays the game he has more.

Example:

Rather than dropping May from the EPS he selects him, not using one of his permitted changes, then calls up Ashton say as injury cover from the Saxons squad.



Shame if Kvesic misses out. Much like George Smith I think the Gloucester player has exactly what we need. I guess the more abrasive approach of Fraser, allied to the coaches knowing him better, has won the day.

Telegraph not saying Marler has been dropped, and not actually giving a full list of the squad, so hard to judge right now, but presumably, assuming they're correct in what they write (uncapped in bold):

Mako and Marler at LH.
Hill in at TH prop, alongside Cole.
Presumably one other prop. Wilson? Thomas? do we have any other capped LHs?
Hookers should be Hartley, George, Youngs as expected.
Itoje in at lock. Parling out. No mention of Kitchener (who's uncapped isn't he?) could mean Kruis, Launchbury and Lawes for the other three spots? obviously injuries could be replaced.
Robshaw, Haskell? Fraser, Clifford, Beaumont, Vunipola for the backrow.
Care, Youngs, Simpson at SH.
Farrell, Ford at FH.
Hill, Tuilagi? at IC. (reports of Daly at OC, and no talk of Joseph being left out, so maybe Tuilagi seen as an IC).
Joseph, Dalyat OC.
Watson, Nowell? Yarde, Ashton for the wings. Though one of the other links mentioned Roko as a possibility.
Brown, Foden/Goode at FB.

Or has someone seen the actual presumed squad listed somewhere? which means I've wasted a lot of effort for nothing

just seen this.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/12096200/Manu-Tuilagi-could-be-fit-and-ready-for-climax-of-the-Six-Nations-in-March.html

the end is interesting and it seems I could be correct in suggesting Jones wants to try Manu at 12. To be fair, I think we all quite fancied the idea of getting Tuilagi (when fit and back to his best, obv.) and Joseph in the same side...

Manu Tuilagi who's just back from long term injury? Tuilagi who can't or won't pass. Tuilagi who has no step and just runs at people. Him at 12?

Ok

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jan/12/england-six-nations-eddie-jones-maro-itoje

Guardian having a full squad suggested with either Hill or Devoto in at 12.

They also have Brookes retained with a possible return by the end of the month, now that I'd good news.

I was pretty close then Excellent news about Brookes, though I'd be loathe to rush him back too quickly...

guardian squad, for those who are too lazy to click on the link:

Backs: M Brown (Harlequins); A Goode (Saracens), C Ashton (Saracens), J Nowell (Exeter), A Watson (Bath), M Yarde (Saracens), E Daly (Wasps), J Joseph (Bath), M Tuilagi (Leicester), O Devoto (Bath)/S Hill (Exeter), O Farrell (Saracens), G Ford (Bath), D Care (Harlequins), J Simpson (Wasps), B Youngs (Leicester).

Forwards: D Hartley (Northampton), J George (Saracens), T Youngs (Leicester), J Marler (Harlequins), M Vunipola (Saracens), K Brookes (Northampton), D Cole (Leicester), P Hill (Northampton), J Launchbury (Wasps), C Lawes (Northampton), M Itoje (Saracens), G Kruis (Saracens), J Clifford (Harlequins), J Haskell (Wasps), W Fraser (Saracens), C Robshaw (Harlequins), J Beaumont (Sale), B Vunipola (Saracens).