England Squad Named

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SQUAD IN FULL

Here it is: Eddie Jones first squad as England head coach.

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Paul Hill (Northampton Saints), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby) *injury replacement for Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Henry Thomas (Bath Rugby) *injury replacement for Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens)

Backs

Chris Ashton (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby) *injury replacement for Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Alex Goode (Saracens), Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs) *injury replacement for Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Marland Yarde (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Per Sky

NZ happily have Cruden and Carter and use whomever is on better form/fit at the time. Cruden was getting the opportunity but Carter slotted in fine when he was back to his best. Though, that is Dan Carter and thus hard to compare to any other player

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 it's you who believes that club form means nothing.

It's why you advocated a hooker like Webber in the RWC. It's why you still support Twelvetrees as England 12. It's why you want Ford to be starting 10 for England.

Form takes you only so far? Funny.... look I know that training is one of your main factors for picking players but personally I believe in different factors.

An England team picked by you would horrify me - May on the wing,36 at 12, Ford at 10, Webber at 2.... not sure I would want to know the rest of your dream team... probably the out of form Morgan at 8 and so on.....

lostinwales England's backs didn't look dangerous vs Ireland till Sexton went off and even then they didn't score a try. Some people say that England were better in 2015 than 2014 6 nations - I disagree. I think they were actually better in 2014 because they improved throughout the tournament. A slow start isn't what you want - England got away with it in 2015 but not 2014, the difference afterwards is that after the first game England buckled against Ireland but in 2014 defeated Ireland.

England were flattered in the 6 nations with the French just going ^&*( it we are going to chuck the ball around and throwing caution to the wind. England also scraped past a poor Scottish side.

Daly and Slade still haven't proved themselves though have they? Doesn't make sense? How so? You can't say they are good goal kickers at international level when there is no evidence!

It's like saying player X is world class at international level with no evidence.

Well-past it Ford hasn't outplayed Carter and help destroy the ABs. You talk about best performance..... Ford has nothing compared to that.

I still believe if OF was in form he would have done  better vs Sexton, don't think he's lost to Ireland at 10.

Silly. What comes across is that you say you can't pick Daly or Slade because they haven't played international rugby.

You can't say that they will be good international kickers because there is no evidence of them kicking at international level. But there is plenty of evidence at AP level which suggests they have the potential to do so. As I said 1st time around the only difference between club level and test level is going to be pressure. Its not a time based activity and they don't have to cope with bigger faster guys running at them because for a penalty kick those guys have to stay still. In the absence of an international record they have the next best thing.

lostinwales I don't understand you. You can't claim that Slade and Daly are good international kickers when there is no proof.

Of course they can be picked but doesn't make them great internationals without proof.

Potential is just that potential till they are given opportunities. Perhaps Daly is a world class long range international goal kicker but we need proof of it.

To be honest I haven't seen their kicking percentages at AP level but I think you'll find Daly's % isn't as high as you think.

You say the only difference is pressure. not everyone/ everything transfers successfully to international level - you know this. Kicking at AP level is not the same as international level even if you say it's the only factor which I disagree with.

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 it's you who believes that club form means nothing.

It's why you advocated a hooker like Webber in the RWC. It's why you still support Twelvetrees as England 12. It's why you want Ford to be starting 10 for England.

Form takes you only so far? Funny.... look I know that training is one of your main factors for picking players but personally I believe in different factors.

An England team picked by you would horrify me - May on the wing,36 at 12, Ford at 10, Webber at 2.... not sure I would want to know the rest of your dream team... probably the out of form Morgan at 8 and so on.....

lostinwales England's backs didn't look dangerous vs Ireland till Sexton went off and even then they didn't score a try. Some people say that England were better in 2015 than 2014 6 nations - I disagree. I think they were actually better in 2014 because they improved throughout the tournament. A slow start isn't what you want - England got away with it in 2015 but not 2014, the difference afterwards is that after the first game England buckled against Ireland but in 2014 defeated Ireland.

England were flattered in the 6 nations with the French just going ^&*( it we are going to chuck the ball around and throwing caution to the wind. England also scraped past a poor Scottish side.

Daly and Slade still haven't proved themselves though have they? Doesn't make sense? How so? You can't say they are good goal kickers at international level when there is no evidence!

It's like saying player X is world class at international level with no evidence.

Well-past it Ford hasn't outplayed Carter and help destroy the ABs. You talk about best performance..... Ford has nothing compared to that.

I still believe if OF was in form he would have done  better vs Sexton, don't think he's lost to Ireland at 10.

Advocated in the sense in explaining the possible reasons Webber was chosen I wouldn't have picked in my world cup squad as I stated at the time. So are you now acknowledging Daly and Slade as long range kickers or not? Does showing they have alonger range than Ford and Farrell disappear? Farrell isn't a deity you know!

beshocked wrote:lostinwales I don't understand you. You can't claim that Slade and Daly are good international kickers when there is no proof.

Of course they can be picked but doesn't make them great internationals without proof.

Potential is just that potential till they are given opportunities. Perhaps Daly is a world class long range international goal kicker but we need proof of it.

To be honest I haven't seen their kicking percentages at AP level but I think you'll find Daly's % isn't as high as you think.

You say the only difference is pressure. not everyone/ everything transfers successfully to international level - you know this. Kicking at AP level is not the same as international level even if you say it's the only factor which I disagree with.

From Statbunker, can’t attest for the accuracy.  I also think it is worth remembering that Daly rarely takes a kick from within 55 metres, meaning they aren’t just long attempts, they are very LONG attempts.


Aviva Premiership

2012-13 62% success rate (from 8 kicks)
2013-14: 33% success rate (from 6 kicks)
2014-15: 100% success rate (from 2 kicks)
2015-16: 57% success rate (from 7 kicks)

Champions Cup


2013-14 (No Results)
2014-15 (No results)
2015-16 40% success rate (from 5 kicks)

Just seen Ashton has been cited maybe cements Yardes place if Nowell isn't fit.

lostinwales wrote:

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 it's you who believes that club form means nothing.

It's why you advocated a hooker like Webber in the RWC. It's why you still support Twelvetrees as England 12. It's why you want Ford to be starting 10 for England.

Form takes you only so far? Funny.... look I know that training is one of your main factors for picking players but personally I believe in different factors.

An England team picked by you would horrify me - May on the wing,36 at 12, Ford at 10, Webber at 2.... not sure I would want to know the rest of your dream team... probably the out of form Morgan at 8 and so on.....

lostinwales England's backs didn't look dangerous vs Ireland till Sexton went off and even then they didn't score a try. Some people say that England were better in 2015 than 2014 6 nations - I disagree. I think they were actually better in 2014 because they improved throughout the tournament. A slow start isn't what you want - England got away with it in 2015 but not 2014, the difference afterwards is that after the first game England buckled against Ireland but in 2014 defeated Ireland.

England were flattered in the 6 nations with the French just going ^&*( it we are going to chuck the ball around and throwing caution to the wind. England also scraped past a poor Scottish side.

Daly and Slade still haven't proved themselves though have they? Doesn't make sense? How so? You can't say they are good goal kickers at international level when there is no evidence!

It's like saying player X is world class at international level with no evidence.

Well-past it Ford hasn't outplayed Carter and help destroy the ABs. You talk about best performance..... Ford has nothing compared to that.

I still believe if OF was in form he would have done  better vs Sexton, don't think he's lost to Ireland at 10.

Silly. What comes across is that you say you can't pick Daly or Slade because they haven't played international rugby.

You can't say that they will be good international kickers because there is no evidence of them kicking at international level. But there is plenty of evidence at AP level which suggests they have the potential to do so. As I said 1st time around the only difference between club level and test level is going to be pressure. Its not a time based activity and they don't have to cope with bigger faster guys running at them because for a penalty kick those guys have to stay still. In the absence of an international record they have the next best thing.

But its different for Itoje

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just seen Ashton has been cited maybe cements Yardes place if Nowell isn't fit.

Yeah if he has gouged the guy then he should be out and not get his place back.

There has been talk that Haskell is in line to start at 7 and Jones himself has said that he doesn't view speed as necessary in the back row against Scotland at Murrayfield, which would back that up in a shoot-out between Haskell and Clifford. Also sounds like Launchbury is going to be fine, so likely that we'll see both Itoje and Clifford making debuts from the bench.

Just to throw one into the Farrell at 12 debate, a Mr Greenwoods been commenting on Farrell's recent form and has suggested that a lot of the good attacking play that he's shown for Saracens of late has come from phases where he's taken the ball as a second receiver behind a decoy. From this position he's had time to take it that at pace and be more creative.

I don't see what all the fuss is to be honest. It would certainly take pressure off both Ford and Farrell to not overthink the kicking game or the attacking game and would certainly provide greater control. It would also give us good width on our attacking game bringing the likes of Watson Brown and Nowell in.

No issues from me with it.

No

I mean, really whether England play well or not doesn't seem to revolve around the 10 but whether Care plays 9.

ChequeredJersey wrote:I mean, really whether England play well or not doesn't seem to revolve around the 10 but whether Care plays 9.

Are you sure he should play. After all what does 53 caps tell us about his ability to play at international level?

Not sure Ashton got the eyes of Luke Marshall, and I wouldn't think intentional, but it was a bad play to wrap around the head. I think the referee got it right.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/12106670/England-wing-Chris-Ashton-could-miss-Six-Nations-2016-after-being-cited-for-Saracens.html

If Ashton is banned for this, it must be time to bring Harry Mallinder into the squad. Can't miss player, cool under pressure, 6' 4", 17 stone, dynamo. Probably will tour with Lions, too.

Ashton was foolish, if he gets a ban then I have no sympathy.

no 7 & 1/2 apologies if I misinterpeted your opinions on Webber. I thought you were championing the man by justifying his selection with reasons why Lancaster selected him.

Lancaster's selection process was flawed anyway.


Daly needs to prove himself at international level. To be honest I'd rather he focussed on getting in the side than discussing whether not he's an international class long range goal kicker or not. Perhaps you are right - maybe Daly will be a long range kicking option for England but as of yet he is not.

Geordiefalcon you are correct - Itoje needs to prove himself at international level too. Doing well at club level is of course not the same as doing well at international level. Need to turn potential into international performances.

A player can only do this with opportunities.

Cumbrian thank you for posting stats.

thomh the worrying thing about Haskell being at 7 as it would mean that it would be the same backrow that was decidedly 2nd best against Ireland in last year's 6 nations.

As the Scottish backrow has been hyped up to the maximum, the English backrow whoever are picked will need to be at the top of their game, remember these are the Scottish who gave Pocock and Hooper a good old fright!

Just listened to the Eggchasers Podcast. They have heard through the grapevine that Eddie Jones doesn't have a problem with Tom Youngs' set piece work, he told the Leicester man his carrying and tackling were not up to standard. That seems an odd way to look at him.

Eggchasers think Jones decided Hartley was his experienced hand, George his in-form pick, with Mullet-Dickie as the development selection, leaving no place for Youngs.

Cool. I think if he starts then Daly will be considered an option. He's not going to be 100% accurate at the ranges we're talking about but it's a very useful string to his bow.

Personally not a massive fan of Hooper, Pocock is the best 7 around, even when playing 8! Scots managed to avoid facing him though but I'd like to see Kvesic then Clifford face them over Haskell.

Please can we not start Haskell?

Deal.

I'm not totally opposed to Haskell starting but I think Robshaw is probably a better seven than him, so it seems odd to have them the other way round.

It's odd from Eddie.

All his talk of the importance of starting a natural open side and listing all of the qualities that makes a 7 a 7, he then suggests that Haskell will be starting against Scotland.

I really don't get it.

Haskell is a poor squad choice in my eyes, other than the fact he covers all back row positions.

Scotland's mid field is strong too - going to be some big calls in selection for the 1st match.

Well, there’s no doubt that professional rugby players are ever increasing their physical power attributes, shame the same can’t be said of their brain power. I haven’t seen the incident, but what would possess CA to tackle someone’s head 5 minutes before he’s a real chance of being reinstated to the test side? Hopefully it will be seen as bad technique (a given with Ashton) rather than malicious.

As for Robshaw / Haskell / Billy, sounds too much like   Meet the new boss, Same as the old boss  to me. Just as well Slammin' has done a runner. I think BR and centre are where Eddie has to make his mark.

1.Welsh/Dickinson
2.Ford
3.Nel
4.J Gray
5.R Gray
6.Cowan
7.Hardie
8.Denton/Strauss

9.Laidlaw/Pygros
10.Russell

11.Seymour
12.Scott
13.Bennett
14.Maitland
15.Hogg

We are facing what will be a strong Scotland side at Murrayfield. With Cowan and Hardie on the flanks they have a potent breakdown presence. That front row will be very strong at scrum - even if Dickinson is injured then Welsh is playing well in the AP. With the Gray brothers in the second row they will also be very adept at pressuring our newly drilled line-out.

With all this in mind I guess Jones is taking a pragmatic view and heading to Edinburgh with a very simple game plan. He'll wants to play all the rugby in their half and force Scotland to play from deep. They have dangerous backs but a few are also susceptible to poor decision making and unforced errors - I say that as a big fan of Russell, Scott and Hogg. It seems he just wants to force those guys to play in their half then seize on those errors if they come.

It sounds like he wants to be pragmatic at the ruck and not risk giving away penalties that allow Scotland's potent backs to run in our half. He'd rather his 7 look to slow the ball and force them to play from deep or kick back to us rather than risk 50/50 turnovers. It's the unspoken other edge of allowing someone to attack the breakdown as a 'poacher' does that they are left at mercy of the refs view of the breakdown.

Perhaps he views Haskell as the best man for doing this job of securing quick ruck ball for his backs from first phase and slowing the opposition ball in defence. Personally I'd much rather have Kvesic for the role.

I could cope with Haskell being given a chance on the blindside with the basic instruction of tackle and carry. Not at openside though. Whilst he's better at the ruck than some give him credit for he is also prone to giving penalties there which is just asking for trouble if he's being told to focus primarily on securing/slowing ball.

Is there any possibility (hope) that the Haskell at 7 story is just a smokescreen to take the pressure off either Kvesic or Clifford starting?  It does seem strange for Jones to criticise Robshaw very publicly as not being an international 7 and then playing somebody only very slightly more qualified there.  It would be fine if we were going to be on top in the scrums, lineouts and consistently getting over the gain line in the backs, so that Scotland were on the back foot and having to defend rather than attack the breakdown.  I have to admit that I am struggling to see where we are going to dominate Scotland, so it looks as if the breakdown could become a real dogfight.  At least having coached Japan, Jones is used to not having a dominant pack and has successfully adjusted the game plan for this.

It wouldn't surprise me if it's just an effort to kick guys up the backside and voice what he wants from his 7 nlpnlp.

It's the lack of Kvesic in his original EPS that makes me think his gameplan this 6 Nations isn't for his sevens to attack for the turnover though. Clifford is strong over the ball but doesn't really hunt the breakdown as some do. The same for Robshaw and Haskell, plus Ewers isn't in the EPS for his ruck work.

As long as he finds a balance that works I'm happy for his side to not go all out for turnover count though. The best 7s are those who know when to show some 'restraint' and hang back looking to make tackles and bounce back into the defensive line rather than attack the ball constantly. McCaw was a master at this and Francois Louw is one of the best as well.

I do however want flankers who can attack the ball all out when it's on. If you don't show some capacity to do that then the opposition can attack under far less pressure, as we saw at the RWC. I reckon a 6/7 of Robshaw/Kvesic offer the best balance for this and hope to see them against Scotland.

nlpnlp wrote:Is there any possibility (hope) that the Haskell at 7 story is just a smokescreen to take the pressure off either Kvesic or Clifford starting?  It does seem strange for Jones to criticise Robshaw very publicly as not being an international 7 and then playing somebody only very slightly more qualified there.  It would be fine if we were going to be on top in the scrums, lineouts and consistently getting over the gain line in the backs, so that Scotland were on the back foot and having to defend rather than attack the breakdown.  I have to admit that I am struggling to see where we are going to dominate Scotland, so it looks as if the breakdown could become a real dogfight.  At least having coached Japan, Jones is used to not having a dominant pack and has successfully adjusted the game plan for this.

Given the 'smoke screen' around the squad selection I'd say this was very likely.

It is of course possible we will see Haskell at 7, but it is probably safer to say that the rumors will have no bearing on who is actually chosen.

It does seem to be a very strong Scottish squad, we'll just have to make sure it is not strong enough

Sam Underhill set to be in England U20s then? Our squad was announced today.

mikey_dragon wrote:Sam Underhill set to be in England U20s then? Our squad was announced today.

Apparently not:

England U20 Elite Player Squad 2016
Sam Aspland-Robinson (Harlequins), Darren Atkins (Bath), Joshua Bainbridge (Yorkshire Carnegie), Lewis Boyce (Yorkshire Carnegie)*, Theo Brophy Clews (London Irish)*, Callum Chick (Newcastle Falcons), Andrew Kitchener (Worcester Warriors), Max Malins (Saracens), Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints), Joseph Marchant (Harlequins), Jack Maunder (Exeter Chiefs)*, Zach Mercer (Bath), Joe Mullis (Gloucester), George Nott (Sale Sharks), Paolo Odogwu (Leicester Tigers), George Perkins (Saracens), Jake Pope (Sale Sharks), Taylor Prell (Yorkshire Carnegie), Mathew Protheroe (Gloucester), Will Safe (Gloucester), Jamie Shillcock (Worcester Warriors), Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors), Samuel Smith (Worcester Warriors), Stanley South (Harlequins), William Stuart (Wasps), Huw Taylor (Worcester Warriors), Oliver Thorley (Gloucester), Billy Walker (Saracens), Jack Walker (Yorkshire Carnegie), Calum Waters (Harlequins), Tom West (Wasps), Archie White (Harlequins)

*Ralph Adams-Hale (Saracens) and Max Green (Yorkshire Carnegie) are training with the squad as injury cover for Lewis Boyce and Jack Maunder. Joe Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs) temporarily takes the place of Theo Brophy Clews who is fulfilling club duties.

In my mind Jones is being cagey.  I would not be surprised if Kvesic starts or that some of the injury replacements feature ahead of the firmer selections.  I am sure all this will be assessed in training, etc.

Being an away match may make the selection more conservative.

I think there is a danger that England give Scotland too much respect.

You would think from some of the comments on here that Scotland are defending 6 nations champions instead of the holders of the wooden spoon.

You would think that Scotland find it easy to beat England.

Don't get me wrong I think Scotland are an improved side from last 6 nations but player for player I think England are quite a bit stronger than Scotland.

Only really at 12 do I feel that Scotland hold a decent advantage and that's because they can play the in form Duncan Taylor.

When I look at the England squad picked by Eddie Jones I am excited, when I look at the coaches he's picked and the mentors he is looking to employ like Wilkinson and Smith I am excited.

People say this is an inexperienced England. It's not really compared to Scotland.

Mako,Robshaw,Billy,Youngs,Brown,Farrell,Launchbury etc are in some cases more experienced than their opposite numbers.

As long as Eddie Jones doesn't make too many bizarre selections I expect England to win.

Its nice to see you excited again Beshocked. don't give them fellas any respect just smash them to bits - The media will

beshocked wrote:I think there is a danger that England give Scotland too much respect.

You would think from some of the comments on here that Scotland are defending 6 nations champions instead of the holders of the wooden spoon.

You would think that Scotland find it easy to beat England.

Don't get me wrong I think Scotland are an improved side from last 6 nations but player for player I think England are quite a bit stronger than Scotland.

Only really at 12 do I feel that Scotland hold a decent advantage and that's because they can play the in form Duncan Taylor.

When I look at the England squad picked by Eddie Jones I am excited, when I look at the coaches he's picked and the mentors he is looking to employ like Wilkinson and Smith I am excited.

People say this is an inexperienced England. It's not really compared to Scotland.

Mako,Robshaw,Billy,Youngs,Brown,Farrell,Launchbury etc are in some cases more experienced than their opposite numbers.

As long as Eddie Jones doesn't make too many bizarre selections I expect England to win.

Dunbar is starting at 12 barring injury. Taylor could like up at 13 though, if Bennett isn't fit enough .. would be an interesting matchup with JJ, contrast of styles there

beshocked wrote:I think there is a danger that England give Scotland too much respect.

You would think from some of the comments on here that Scotland are defending 6 nations champions instead of the holders of the wooden spoon.

You would think that Scotland find it easy to beat England.

Don't get me wrong I think Scotland are an improved side from last 6 nations but player for player I think England are quite a bit stronger than Scotland.

Only really at 12 do I feel that Scotland hold a decent advantage and that's because they can play the in form Duncan Taylor.

When I look at the England squad picked by Eddie Jones I am excited, when I look at the coaches he's picked and the mentors he is looking to employ like Wilkinson and Smith I am excited.

People say this is an inexperienced England. It's not really compared to Scotland.

Mako,Robshaw,Billy,Youngs,Brown,Farrell,Launchbury etc are in some cases more experienced than their opposite numbers.

As long as Eddie Jones doesn't make too many bizarre selections I expect England to win.

I agree with you beshocked that England will probably win, however I disagree that England will give us too much respect. First match under the watchful eyes of Jones??? I think they'll go hell for leather from the off....which is slightly unnerving.

I also disagree that every England player is quite a bit stronger than their opposite number - especially if Haskell does play at 7 (which would be a huge mistake).

By the way, Dunbar is a better player than Taylor.

Our backs are a bit off form so England could have the advantage there. The forward battle though, is going to be interesting and pretty bloody brutal.

BamBam wrote:

beshocked wrote:I think there is a danger that England give Scotland too much respect.

You would think from some of the comments on here that Scotland are defending 6 nations champions instead of the holders of the wooden spoon.

You would think that Scotland find it easy to beat England.

Don't get me wrong I think Scotland are an improved side from last 6 nations but player for player I think England are quite a bit stronger than Scotland.

Only really at 12 do I feel that Scotland hold a decent advantage and that's because they can play the in form Duncan Taylor.

When I look at the England squad picked by Eddie Jones I am excited, when I look at the coaches he's picked and the mentors he is looking to employ like Wilkinson and Smith I am excited.

People say this is an inexperienced England. It's not really compared to Scotland.

Mako,Robshaw,Billy,Youngs,Brown,Farrell,Launchbury etc are in some cases more experienced than their opposite numbers.

As long as Eddie Jones doesn't make too many bizarre selections I expect England to win.

Dunbar is starting at 12 barring injury. Taylor could like up at 13 though, if Bennett isn't fit enough .. would be an interesting matchup with JJ, contrast of styles there

I shouldn't do this - but its worth pointing out who Duncan Taylor plays for when you see Beshocked say something like that.

lostinwales wrote:

BamBam wrote:

beshocked wrote:I think there is a danger that England give Scotland too much respect.

You would think from some of the comments on here that Scotland are defending 6 nations champions instead of the holders of the wooden spoon.

You would think that Scotland find it easy to beat England.

Don't get me wrong I think Scotland are an improved side from last 6 nations but player for player I think England are quite a bit stronger than Scotland.

Only really at 12 do I feel that Scotland hold a decent advantage and that's because they can play the in form Duncan Taylor.

When I look at the England squad picked by Eddie Jones I am excited, when I look at the coaches he's picked and the mentors he is looking to employ like Wilkinson and Smith I am excited.

People say this is an inexperienced England. It's not really compared to Scotland.

Mako,Robshaw,Billy,Youngs,Brown,Farrell,Launchbury etc are in some cases more experienced than their opposite numbers.

As long as Eddie Jones doesn't make too many bizarre selections I expect England to win.

Dunbar is starting at 12 barring injury. Taylor could like up at 13 though, if Bennett isn't fit enough .. would be an interesting matchup with JJ, contrast of styles there

I shouldn't do this - but its worth pointing out who Duncan Taylor plays for when you see Beshocked say something like that.

I was going to mention it in that post, but thought better of it lol

Moving on.. now it looks like Ashton is likely to get banned, has there been any update on Nowell's fitness?

I'm a big Yarde fan, and would have no issues with him starting, but Nowell/Watson are definitely ahead of him in my book

8th v 9th so its a definite 50/50 game this one IMO much like Ire/Wal, should be a cracker

Bambam I said it for your benefit. Though it's true, he is in good form and would love it if he was at 12 for England, he's been forming a decent partnership with Farrell.

Tattie I would hardly expect you to believe England players are stronger. Please don't base your confidence on the rwc as seems to be the case.

England should be a different prospect in the pack.


Rubyguby I think it's more like 70-30 in England's favour. Being generous to Scotland too based on the H2H between the two countries, previous 6 nations form,club form and overall quality of each squad.

Starting Haskell makes sense if we want a realistic chance of winning in Scotland. Kvesic would be arguably be like fielding a debutante and Clifford is not ready.

Bringing Kvesic off the bench with possibly Itoje also would be a sensible approach.

Sgt Pooly Ksevic should either start or not in the 23 at all. He covers only 7 off the bench.

Haskell or Clifford on the bench though I would prefer Clifford with Ksevic starting.

What's going on you would have Itoje on the bench? Why? I thought you didn't rate him.

Ive never said I don't rate him, I said he's not a god like you make out most of the time

There's a number of lock injuries so Itoje has moved up the list. I personally wouldn't have him in the squad but he's there so use him.

Kvesic has played across the backrow, as have Haskell and Robshaw so no real dramas with cover.

beshocked wrote:Bambam I said it for your benefit. Though it's true, he is in good form and would love it if he was at 12 for England, he's been forming a decent partnership with Farrell.

Tattie I would hardly expect you to believe England players are stronger. Please don't base your confidence on the rwc as seems to be the case.

England should be a different prospect in the pack.


Rubyguby I think it's more like 70-30 in England's favour. Being generous to Scotland too based on the H2H between the two countries, previous 6 nations form,club form and overall quality of each squad.

I urge you to read my post again where I do not mention anything about my confidence - based on the WC or otherwise. In fact, considering I stated I think England will win, I would say I have pretty much no confidence.

What I do disagree with, is your statement that every England player is quite a bit better than their opposite number in the Scotland team.

I would argue our front row and Hardie are marginally better (on current form) but it would be mostly advantage England with perhaps one or two evens.

Sgt Pooly you obviously don't rate him highly if you think he's only in the squad because of injuries. Perhaps you should watch him play some time? He's been putting in some very strong performances.

Itoje has to prove himself at international level just as any player does. I think he's got great potential though.

Just because someone has played in a position at some point in their rugby career doesn't mean it's necessarily desirable to see them forced to play in that position at international level!

In the case of Robshaw and Ksevic I would want to see neither at no 8. Still not convinced with Haskell in any position.

Tattie you are right perhaps it's overly harsh to suggest England hold the advantage in every position bar 12.

Nel has been in better form than Cole for example. Jonny Gray is a very talented lock.

Scotland do have some very good players. I like Denton but I just don't think he's as good as Billy.

I thought Hogg was your most valued player in last year's 6 nations, poor RWC though.

Taylor of course. Bennett is good.

On the frontrow, it's hard to gauge as the England pack should have a different look to it.

beshocked wrote:Tattie you are right perhaps it's overly harsh to suggest England hold the advantage in every position bar 12.

Nel has been in better form than Cole for example. Jonny Gray is a very talented lock.

Scotland do have some very good players. I like Denton but I just don't think he's as good as Billy.

I thought Hogg was your most valued player in last year's 6 nations, poor RWC though.

Taylor of course. Bennett is good.

On the frontrow, it's hard to gauge as the England pack should have a different look to it.

Agreed on Billy V. The guy is a wrecking ball and seems to make easy yards with the ball in hand. Scotland will need to stop him dead to have any kind of parity at the breakdown. Not easy at all.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

beshocked wrote:Tattie you are right perhaps it's overly harsh to suggest England hold the advantage in every position bar 12.

Nel has been in better form than Cole for example. Jonny Gray is a very talented lock.

Scotland do have some very good players. I like Denton but I just don't think he's as good as Billy.

I thought Hogg was your most valued player in last year's 6 nations, poor RWC though.

Taylor of course. Bennett is good.

On the frontrow, it's hard to gauge as the England pack should have a different look to it.

Agreed on Billy V. The guy is a wrecking ball and seems to make easy yards with the ball in hand. Scotland will need to stop him dead to have any kind of parity at the breakdown. Not easy at all.

Hopefully we're going to have a couple of other carriers to make sure its not just about stopping Billy!

BamBam wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

beshocked wrote:Tattie you are right perhaps it's overly harsh to suggest England hold the advantage in every position bar 12.

Nel has been in better form than Cole for example. Jonny Gray is a very talented lock.

Scotland do have some very good players. I like Denton but I just don't think he's as good as Billy.

I thought Hogg was your most valued player in last year's 6 nations, poor RWC though.

Taylor of course. Bennett is good.

On the frontrow, it's hard to gauge as the England pack should have a different look to it.

Agreed on Billy V. The guy is a wrecking ball and seems to make easy yards with the ball in hand. Scotland will need to stop him dead to have any kind of parity at the breakdown. Not easy at all.

Hopefully we're going to have a couple of other carriers to make sure its not just about stopping Billy!

Hopefully not BamBam

Need to isolate him.

Toulon had a field day against Billy in the 2013-14 HC final. Turned him over again and again as he seemed to the primary ball carrier on the day.

Showed the importance of not relying too heavily on one player.

I think the Scottish backrow are capable of doing it if England get the backrow balance wrong and don't sufficiently support their players.

It's funny that in the build up to the Scotland game and 6 nations it's the 7 shirt and the 12 shirt that are again the two biggest talking points with rumours of Haskell and Farrell being given the two spots instead of a fresh/new approach.

I think 3 is an issue that has gone under the radar too.

beshocked wrote:Sgt Pooly  you obviously don't rate him highly if you think he's only in the squad because of injuries. Perhaps you should watch him play some time? He's been putting in some very strong performances.

Itoje has to prove himself at international level just as any player does. I think he's got great potential though.

Just because someone has played in a position at some point in their rugby career doesn't mean it's necessarily desirable to see them forced to play in that position at international level!

In the case of Robshaw and Ksevic I would want to see neither at no 8.  Still not convinced with Haskell in any position.

I've obviously seen him play Beshocked, don't be patrionising. I watched him get comprehensively outplayed by Kruis and Sean Robinson at our place for starters.

You can still rate someone but prefer other players, Attwood and Slater to name a few. He's got lucky with a few injuries and may get his chance, good luck to the lad but he's not a rugby god like you go on.

Of course it isn't desirable but until we have 15 subs on the bench you're going to have to have players who can cover a number of positions.....Kvesic, Robshaw and Haskell have played across the backrow.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

BamBam wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

beshocked wrote:Tattie you are right perhaps it's overly harsh to suggest England hold the advantage in every position bar 12.

Nel has been in better form than Cole for example. Jonny Gray is a very talented lock.

Scotland do have some very good players. I like Denton but I just don't think he's as good as Billy.

I thought Hogg was your most valued player in last year's 6 nations, poor RWC though.

Taylor of course. Bennett is good.

On the frontrow, it's hard to gauge as the England pack should have a different look to it.

Agreed on Billy V. The guy is a wrecking ball and seems to make easy yards with the ball in hand. Scotland will need to stop him dead to have any kind of parity at the breakdown. Not easy at all.

Hopefully we're going to have a couple of other carriers to make sure its not just about stopping Billy!

Hopefully not BamBam

Bambam isn't international class, journeyman at best