England Squad Named

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SQUAD IN FULL

Here it is: Eddie Jones first squad as England head coach.

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Paul Hill (Northampton Saints), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby) *injury replacement for Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Henry Thomas (Bath Rugby) *injury replacement for Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens)

Backs

Chris Ashton (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby) *injury replacement for Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Alex Goode (Saracens), Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs) *injury replacement for Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Marland Yarde (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Per Sky

yappysnap wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

BamBam wrote:

Hopefully we're going to have a couple of other carriers to make sure its not just about stopping Billy!

Hopefully not BamBam

Bambam isn't international class, journeyman at best

Bambam has obvious potential. Hew needs to be given a chance now.


Along with Hairy Mallinder

Hope Beaumont gets on the bench to cover 8. He looks like he's very hard to stop from the base.

LondonTiger wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

BamBam wrote:

Hopefully we're going to have a couple of other carriers to make sure its not just about stopping Billy!

Hopefully not BamBam

Bambam isn't international class, journeyman at best

Bambam has obvious potential. Hew needs to be given a chance now.


Along with Hairy Mallinder

What's Bambam won? Nothing. The other guys in his position have all been in winning teams = better then him

Mallinders son should definitely play, in fact we should cap the sons of any coaches in the AP/RFU, obviously they're best, and we may need them to owe us a favour...

yappysnap wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

BamBam wrote:

Hopefully we're going to have a couple of other carriers to make sure its not just about stopping Billy!

Hopefully not BamBam

Bambam isn't international class, journeyman at best

Bambam has obvious potential. Hew needs to be given a chance now.


Along with Hairy Mallinder

What's Bambam won? Nothing. The other guys in his position have all been in winning teams = better then him

Mallinders son should definitely play, in fact we should cap the sons of any coaches in the AP/RFU, obviously they're best, and we may need them to owe us a favour...

Oi! I'll have you know that my university 4th team bench back row is a very competitive position, and I nearly made it there twice!

RubyGuby wrote:8th v 9th so its a definite 50/50 game this one IMO much like Ire/Wal, should be a cracker

I see what you did there, very clever

...better hope the mighty Wales don't get beaten by such lowly opposition.......

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Starting Haskell makes sense if we want a realistic chance of winning in Scotland. Kvesic would be arguably be like fielding a debutante and Clifford is not ready.

Bringing Kvesic off the bench with possibly Itoje also would be a sensible approach.

Sgt,

Personally id prefer to have Kvesic start. Yes he's a debutant, but hes playing well. Also he will have Billy V and Robshaw with him who are quality and experienced. Kvesic is very much a leader at Gloucester despite his young age...so I think he wont be daunted by a trip to Murrayfield.
Besides, these guys have to be tested and start at some point.

Interestingly Luke Wallace is the one who statistically is playing very well - the best alround stats.

This article is very interesting on the complete stats on Englands potential 7's, its worth a quick look.

http://www.therugbyanalyst.com/?p=64

The thing about Kvesic is he will get in a match sooner or later so why not now? Not sure whether he is the ultimate best choice, but I am sure he will be fine. And there is only one way to know how he will get on is to give him a shot.

By the way, do you gents think Ashton really gouged? Or was he just clumsy? When I watch replays I lean towards simply clumsy.

Yeah that's my thoughts Dr.

At the moment he is the 7 to look at. So give him a run. Robshaw and Billy will keep him right aswell.

Ultimately it may be that Clifford has that spot. He really is going to be one hell of a player. And if he can work on his breakdown skills....he could be special....AND a captain.

doctor_grey wrote:By the way, do you gents think Ashton really gouged?  Or was he just clumsy?  When I watch replays I lean towards simply clumsy.  

Probably a bit clumsy, but he doesn't help himself at times.

My choices would be
Watson & Nowell
If Nowell wasn't fit then id love to see Roko in there.

But Ashton scores tries in the right system.

Ashton was clumsy - exacerbated by always trying to be seen to be physical. Having failed to shift the man round his body, he tried to grab him round the head and tug him out.

90% of the time Ashton does enough to make you think he's a very good winger. Unfortunately that other 10% makes me think he's a liability and a bit of a plonker

yappysnap wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

BamBam wrote:

Hopefully we're going to have a couple of other carriers to make sure its not just about stopping Billy!

Hopefully not BamBam

Bambam isn't international class, journeyman at best

Bambam has obvious potential. Hew needs to be given a chance now.


Along with Hairy Mallinder

What's Bambam won? Nothing. The other guys in his position have all been in winning teams = better then him

Mallinders son should definitely play, in fact we should cap the sons of any coaches in the AP/RFU, obviously they're best, and we may need them to owe us a favour...

Totally disagree, Bambam should be nowhere near. He can't do the basics, how can you play International rugby if you can't do the basics???

That kind of shows how stats can be misleading at times GF, as when I've seen Wallace he's been nothing past ok. Certainly not one of our better 7 options and nothing more than a good AP player.

Ashton will be kicking himself if he gets done as he would most likely be in the team in nowell misses out.

Wallace just looks a bit meh at premiership level, not sure he could ever make the step up.

Interesting those stats, certainly paints Wallace in a good light. He's always been a very solid player, he just doesn't really catch the eye with carrying, offloads, line breaks. Obviously does the core 7 tackling/breakdown skills well according to the stats but despite what is fashionable to say these days, being an international class back row is about more than just the basics. You need the pace, footballing skills, passing and offloading game that Clifford is showing great signs of thus far.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

beshocked wrote:Sgt Pooly  you obviously don't rate him highly if you think he's only in the squad because of injuries. Perhaps you should watch him play some time? He's been putting in some very strong performances.

Itoje has to prove himself at international level just as any player does. I think he's got great potential though.

Just because someone has played in a position at some point in their rugby career doesn't mean it's necessarily desirable to see them forced to play in that position at international level!

In the case of Robshaw and Ksevic I would want to see neither at no 8.  Still not convinced with Haskell in any position.

I've obviously seen him play Beshocked, don't be patrionising. I watched him get comprehensively outplayed by Kruis and Sean Robinson at our place for starters.

You can still rate someone but prefer other players, Attwood and Slater to name a few. He's got lucky with a few injuries and may get his chance, good luck to the lad but he's not a rugby god like you go on.

Of course it isn't desirable but until we have 15 subs on the bench you're going to have to have players who can cover a number of positions.....Kvesic, Robshaw and Haskell have played across the backrow.

Perhaps Kruis was the better of the two Saracens 2nd rowers on the day, so what? If one player puts in a 8/10 performance and the other 7/10 I am not going to deride the one who didn't play slightly as well as the other as both did their job well. Itoje has also played better than Kruis in some games, it happens. Still Kruis and Itoje were better than their opposite numbers.

Okay I will concede you might have watched him in that one game but Itoje has played in more than one game. Did you watch him against Ulster for example? I am not expecting you to watch every single game but one match vs Newcastle is not a fair sample. You saw what you wanted to see because you don't rate him.

Itoje is playing very well this season,you don't have to believe me, you could just watch him in more than one game and see for yourself.

I believe he should have made the England squad even if Slater and Attwood weren't injured. Slater has been in good form so it might have been a close one but in the case of two players in good form with no international experience I would generally go for the younger player.

You can be in the minority of not rating Itoje if you want, doesn't make it justifiable though.

Oh and you should know I am not even saying that Itoje has to start vs Scotland, Launchbury/Kruis with Itoje on the bench is fine.

Would rather Clifford as cover on the bench instead of Ksevic. I think he looks like a very talented youngster too.

The funny thing is that my desirable starting line up is not that different from most other England fans.


I am not going to defend Ashton, if he gets banned he only has himself to blame.

I do think it was clumsy too not intentional but he has quite a track record of poor timing and discipline. He's not as bad as Hartley but he's on his way in that direction.

He's a fool because this coaching set up might have well given his England career a new lease of life if he is banned which he is likely to be.

Is Itoje pretty much seen as a lock now or is there any chance Jones is viewing him as a contender at 6?

I'd love you to find a post where I say I don't rate Itoje as I haven't. You keep inventing these responses when somebody doesn't put a player on a pedestal like you often do.

I like Itoje a lot but there's better locks about currently imo. He has bags of potential but you pick your best players and he's just not one of those for me. I've seen him on a number of times this season and Kruis has outplayed him on each occasion, I don't understand why you don't champion him as much as he's been outstanding this season.

I bring the Newcastle game up as Robinson outplayed him throughout, that's not the mark of top class lock who's quite ready for starting for England.

Start of a new 'world cup cycle' and a new coach there's always going to be a few new players, a few young(ish) players getting a step up on others who could be better than them at the time. It looks like Hill, Itoje, Hill and Clifford have a foot in the door which could be really good for us in the near to mid future.

no 7 & 1/2 don't know we'll see.

Sgt Pooly your posts just show you don't rate him. You say you like him by consistently say you don't think he's good enough which is wrong in my opinion. It's not inventing. Every single time I have said England need to look at Itoje you've derided the opinion.

Still harking back to that Newcastle game, don't think many are still contemplating it as much as you, remind me what was the score? Itoje is part of a very powerful unit and contributes in every game. He was part of a Sarries team which tore Newcastle to shreds in the end. He made at least one powerful carry which eventually resulted in a try. I admit I haven't analysed the game as much as you admittedly but even then I don't think looking back to a relatively inconsequential AP game when Sarries smashed Newcastle should damage Itoje's England credentials.

I don't champion Kruis as much because Itoje is on par with him already and he's just going to get better. You cannot underestimate how difficult it is to break into a team performing well then keep your place. Itoje's rise has been much faster than that of his fellow academy forwards. Kruis is a good player but I don't feel he's got the same potential as Itoje.

I am happy to criticise any player if I feel they warrant it.

Everyone rates Itoje, have you really seen anyone say he's not a good player. Some just think he's not as good currently as other options we have. In a way it's a similar position to where Nowell was a couple of years back but there's a few more quality options at lock than there was or perhaps is at wing. If we can get through this 6Ns with good performances getting the Hills, Itoje and Clifford quite a bit of game time (maybe even throw Kvesic in there) it's a big tick for Jones. The obvious ideal here is to win (a grand slam/6Ns) while blooding the younger debutants without swinging to extremes ie loads of debuts no wins, no eye on the future ie putting off the debuts where perhaps you could slip a couple in.

NZ have perfected the art of picking the right times, England have mainly got it right.

Exactly 71/2, I've not seen many people suggest Itoje is not a good player.

You're really hard to debate with sometimes Beshocked, you seem to think people have an agenda and invent these points that have never actually happened.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Exactly 71/2, I've not seen many people suggest Itoje is not a good player.

You're really hard to debate with sometimes Beshocked, you seem to think people have an agenda and invent these points that have never actually happened.

One eyed Saffacens fan innit

Kruis was outstanding, Saracens best player, in the match against us. He has been the form lock in the AP and deserves to start against Scotland.

I guess that, other on this forum, it is not "cool" to rate him and instead we have to buy into the Itoje story. Now maybe Itoje should be selected ahead of Launchbury - but certainly not ahead of Kruis.

No no no! I don't really care about anything else other than if fit Launchbury starts. Head and shoulders our best lock, I don't care about form! No!

And he'd be my captain.

no 7 & 1/2 England have mainly got it right? Is that why England have failed to win a GS since 2003 and failed to get out of their pool in the RWC when they were hosts?

Sgt Pooly doesn't think Itoje is good.

Munkian you're an ignorant fool if you think that.

Reading some of my comments might educate you.

I think Farrell is petulant,arrogant and prone to doing stupid things.

I have criticised Ashton for his foolish potential eye contact on Marshall. He is also prone to doing stupid things.

Goode sadly probably isn't quick enough at international level.

Fraser needs to do more to get in the England squad.

Barritt sadly has had opportunities.

Sgt Pooly I become hard to debate because there are just some things I don't believe are debatable. I admit I am stubborn, it becomes hard when someone holds an opposing view I think is ludicrous.

Londontiger don't get me wrong I would probably start Kruis vs Scotland with Launchbury, Itoje on the bench. That is not a ludicrous suggestion. Plenty of logic.

You are right Kruis is playing well but then again he's further along the development path than Itoje, he's older and has played international rugby before.

Justifying a Kruis/Launchbury starting lock combo isn't hard.

In relation to the introduction of new players; yes they've mainly got it right. There's not really been any prolonged period where a youngster has been denied a deserved chance over an over the hill vet or vice versa a youngster who was several steps below the required quality at international level, though I was mainly talking of Lancaster's time rather than going back to 03 where there was a lack of mid to long term planning to achieve the extremely good short term success. This for me is a separate issue to the number of grand slams we've had.

No 7&1/2 wrote:In relation to the introduction of new players; yes they've mainly got it right. There's not really been any prolonged period where a youngster has been denied a deserved chance over an over the hill vet or vice versa a youngster who was several steps below the required quality at international level, though I was mainly talking of Lancaster's time rather than going back to 03 where there was a lack of mid to long term planning to achieve the extremely good short term success. This for me is a separate issue to the number of grand slams we've had.  

You'll be hearing about Jamie George very shortly

Got it right vs France away didn't they? Throw Nowell in the deep end which in my opinion was a mistake and to not even use him in the RWC despite being in better form than other wingers at that time. Nowell probably didn't look world class in training though.

Burgess' introduction to international rugby was a shambles.

Even Joel Tomkins picked, now back in RL too.

Clark - poor debut.

RWC was not a good example of player development though you're the one who constantly justifies the selection of Webber by Lancaster so I can't take everything you say entirely seriously.

Yeah Nowell away was probably a brave borderline call and one which has paid off in the end. The Ashton situation before where he was probably given a touch too long to rediscover his form but there wasn't a young winger really pushing him mainly similar age or older. At the time thoguh I would have given him the same time perhaps more so fair play to Lancaster for pulling the plug at the right time.

May was certainly the winger in form going into the world cup so tough call.

The training thing and Webber; I thought you understood the point yesterday but maybe not? I can try and explain again but tbh a few of us have had a go at that and you don't seem to want to understand it more than you can't. Why is that?

I'd go with a Launchbury/Kruis lock pairing with Itoje on the bench. In fact I've have both of the young bucks, Itoje and Clifford, on the bench against Scotland, and start with Robshaw, Kvesic and Vunipola in the back row (albeit I think Haskell will start at 7).

The real selection danger looming is the prospect of Farrell at 12. He's a 10, and only a 10. I would personally pick Ford at 10 every day of the week and twice on Sunday but as and out and out form selection you'd have to go with Farrell off the back of this season so far. But his position is 10 and not 12. From a Scotland perspective Ford/Farrell at 10/12 is good news in my book.

FES well said. Completely agree.

no 7 & 1/2

Paid off? It didn't pay off at all, lost the game against France, wasn't even of long term benefit for the RWC because Lancaster didn't use Nowell. Another ludicrous opinion of yours.

Thinking it was the right time to pick him when it wasn't.

Was May? I thought he had a poor 2015 6 nations. Even Lancaster did because he dropped May for Nowell.

You can try explain the training again if you want but I'll probably just write it off as another ludicrous opinion of yours.

There is no way you can logically justify the picking of Webber.

Lancaster didn't rate Jamie George at all despite being the form hooker of last season. Only Hartley's suspension meant George was picked.

If Farrell were being viewed as a real option at 12 then I feel that an extra 10 (Cipriani) would have been included in the EPS with Slade injured. Otherwise Hill and Devoto are really slightly wasted selections if neither are going to feature in a 23.

With Farrell the in form 10 I think that Jones will make the brave call to trust one of Hill or Devoto at 12. Especially with a guy of JJs proven class or the form of Daly outside him.

The use of an injury replacement for Manu for the first 3 games when he isn't fit to return to international rugby also gives me hope that Hartley wont be rushed into the starting XV if he doesn't have the fitness to start. When George is playing well and on form why rush Hartley?

If Farrell starts I expect that Care could have a better chance of starting too. Especially if we have a forward pack with more runners to come off 9. Plus Nowell is fantastic at coming of his wing, making yards and causing trouble in the channels close to the ruck.

It's good that you haven't started to throw the insults beshocked! The Nowell pick has paid off. The other option was to pick Ashton who hadn't performed to a good standard for England in a fair while. Given we're looking at the longer term gains and you agree that Nowell is now a good choice, I think Lancaster integrated him well.

May was very good in the warm ups, best performing winger for me.

The Webber thing has been explained, pretty clearly several times now. You just don't listen to opinions or arguments sometimes.

And it's a handful of examples across quite a long time, so yes England have done pretty well.

Ashton now banned for 10 weeks. Seems harsh!

screamingaddabs wrote:Ashton now banned for 10 weeks.  Seems harsh!

Richie Rees got 12 weeks for re-acting to Hartley being a twunt - seems about right to me.

I find it odd that suggesting Itoje isn't the messiah is not debatable......

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I find it odd that suggesting Itoje isn't the messiah is not debatable......

Heretic !!!

screamingaddabs wrote:Ashton now banned for 10 weeks.  Seems harsh!

So is he out of the 6n squad now?

Who will replace him?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

screamingaddabs wrote:Ashton now banned for 10 weeks.  Seems harsh!

So is he out of the 6n squad now?

Who will replace him?

Good question!

That's all I have to add...

If he wants another winger, you'd be thinking Rokoduguni wouldn't you? Perhaps he'll use it for another player he couldn't quite fit in due to restrictions?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

screamingaddabs wrote:Ashton now banned for 10 weeks.  Seems harsh!

So is he out of the 6n squad now?

Who will replace him?

Matt Banahan gets my vote, although I should add I'm a Scotland fan.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

screamingaddabs wrote:Ashton now banned for 10 weeks.  Seems harsh!

So is he out of the 6n squad now?

Who will replace him?

Matt Banahan gets my vote, although I should add I'm a Scotland fan.

Oh please, Oh please, Oh please

Oh goody, can't wait till Roko is included.

Was missing the joy of having to explain why someone who has actively served the British Army should be able to choose to throw a rugby ball around for whichever of the home nations that he so bloody well chooses

Sgt_Pooly wrote:That kind of shows how stats can be misleading at times GF, as when I've seen Wallace he's been nothing past ok. Certainly not one of our better 7 options and nothing more than a good AP player.

Your absolutely right Sgt, the stats don't always tell the true story. I normally don't bother with stats , but i just thought that was quite an interesting analysis.

Well the current squad back 3 is:

Mike Brown - FB, not a winger
Alex Goode - FB not a winger
Chris Ashton - Now banned
Jack Nowell - Has he regained fitness
Anthony Watson - Starting winger
Marland Yarde (Quins) - Will probably start IF nowell is not quite ready.

Roko is probably the next winger in line...unless Eddie decides we have enough cover and JJ and Daly can also cover?? And use that spot elsewhere?

Nowell is expected to regain fitness by the start of the 6 Nations I believe. If he doesn't make this weekend then he would need to be released from camp for the Chiefs visit to Worcs on Sunday 31st Jan.

Roko will surely be next in line for a call up. Lewington has also been consistently strong too so could be an option.