England Squad Named

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SQUAD IN FULL

Here it is: Eddie Jones first squad as England head coach.

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Paul Hill (Northampton Saints), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby) *injury replacement for Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Henry Thomas (Bath Rugby) *injury replacement for Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens)

Backs

Chris Ashton (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby) *injury replacement for Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Alex Goode (Saracens), Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs) *injury replacement for Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Marland Yarde (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Per Sky

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Cipriani was pretty good in the match against the dragons, yet still a bit flakey. I guess he reminds of Quade Cooper a little bit. If Jones is a risk taker then start him against Italy as that match is likely a gauranteed win.

Have I missed something, Cips is not in the EPS?

subbed for Itoje to make the squad tougher????????

Farrell stopped his celebration?

Scottrf wrote:Farrell stopped his celebration?

celebratus interruptus?

Daly having another great game. Really impressed with him

lostinwales wrote:

beshocked wrote:I am not surprised Itoje is being rested, twice he's been on the bench and had to come on early for injured 2nd rowers - Hargreaves vs Worcester, Kruis vs Quins.

Londontiger what about Manu?

Manu is playing at 13 at SF outside Smith. Way too early to mention his name on this thread.

Why?

England have a history of shipping new players in and then when they don't produce shipping them straight out again.

Why wouldn't they bring back their only world class player as soon as he is fit?

Gwlad wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

beshocked wrote:I am not surprised Itoje is being rested, twice he's been on the bench and had to come on early for injured 2nd rowers - Hargreaves vs Worcester, Kruis vs Quins.

Londontiger what about Manu?

Manu is playing at 13 at SF outside Smith. Way too early to mention his name on this thread.

Why?

England have a history of shipping new players in and then when they don't produce shipping them straight out again.

Why wouldn't they bring back their only world class player as soon as he is fit?

Really?

Lost line out from saints, hope pooly was watching

based only upon what we saw today, would either Ford or Farrell be in the squad?

Joe Launchbury will be though. What a player he is. Up with the best locks in the world!

4 Launchbury
5 Kruis
6 Robshaw (Clifford off the bench)
7 Kvesic
8 Billy (Beaumont off the bench)

Now that back 5 has great balance. And the two bench lads will open it right up when they come on!

Your right Geordie, that looks more like the direction that England need to go.

Laurie...

The one thing that's very noticeable about this squad is the number of ball handlers in the pack (and the backs not the usual blockhead centers etc). Its quite clear the route Eddie wants to go. But those players can also handle the physical stuff aswell. Itoje, Clifford, Beaumont are all comfortable running with the ball...but also putting their head where it hurts.

That's the change in direction.

And Launchbury...well he just gets better and better.

And can you believe I used to question his size...ha ha what a doylum!!!

As a neutral its definitely a "watch this space", I see Eddie as more of a Motivator than a technical coach, but he is a good selector and he selects and builds a team to do battle and be competitive so long as the opposition are standing.

Direction is what its all about.and these players will know what their jobs are. Enjoy.

If Elliot Daly is not the starting 13, I may be forced to defect and start watching that other game - what's it called? The one with the women in bikinis - beach volleyball - hmmm - maybe I'll just carry on watching both.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Joe Launchbury will be though. What a player he is. Up with the best locks in the world!

4 Launchbury
5 Kruis
6 Robshaw (Clifford off the bench)
7 Kvesic
8 Billy (Beaumont off the bench)

Now that back 5 has great balance. And the two bench lads will open it right up when they come on!

I don't think Launchbury is quite up there with the best locks in the world, such as AWJ .

Is Beaumont acting as lock cover as well?

Yeah Laurie the thing I hope for is balance in the team. Under Lancaster it was too much emphasis on general all round workhorses. That wont win you a world cup or many games against the SH teams. Or a 6n for that matter.

More balance of the skilled players that England is actually able to produce will change that.

I agree wasps...I think he must be the 13. Not only for his running and handling..but he also offers the kicking option.

A huge boot...but more importantly hes not afraid to take a drop goal. That's the sign of a player who knows how to keep the scoreboard ticking over when a try is not coming - something teams like NZ do...pile pressure on by keeping that scoreboard racking up....aswell as Woodwards England team.

His defence is always picked up on. Yes its not ferocious...but I do think its improving.

I don't think Launchbury or AWJ are up at that top level, neither are world class imo. Launchbury has a shot but needs consistency at International level which he hasn't really had.

AWJ is one of the most overrated players in the NH.

mikey_dragon wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Joe Launchbury will be though. What a player he is. Up with the best locks in the world!

4 Launchbury
5 Kruis
6 Robshaw (Clifford off the bench)
7 Kvesic
8 Billy (Beaumont off the bench)

Now that back 5 has great balance. And the two bench lads will open it right up when they come on!

I don't think Launchbury is quite up there with the best locks in the world, such as AWJ .

Is Beaumont acting as lock cover as well?

Aw Mikey, I didn't even have to wait an hour till a Welshman brought up AWJ

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't think Launchbury or AWJ are up at that top level, neither are world class imo. Launchbury has a shot but needs consistency at International level which he hasn't really had.

AWJ is one of the most overrated players in the NH.

Sgt, I think Launchbury is near enough there...he is quality. Once he just becomes a bit more of a lineout option then he'll be one of the leaders. Hopefully in a more balance pack at international level he can really show that.

I agree about AJW thought...ive said it for 10 years since he started and was being bigged up.

Someone better pinch me....

You'll be saying that when we do the grand slam aswell

Personally, I've seen AWJ being awesome. I've also seen him being less than ordinary. I'm kind of with the inconsistency thing and I think that can also be aimed at Launchbury Difference for me is that Launch is young and getting better all the time in that respect

Launchbury has all the attributes but I can only remember a few games for England where he's been top draw.

Sgt, I agree actually, but as I say, he is constantly improving. Right now, he's probably England's best lock. World class, not yet, but he definitely will be

Without doubt, he's a classy operator.

GeordieFalcon wrote:You'll be saying that when we do the grand slam aswell

Mmm…think it more likely we'll be saying 'watch out for that flying pig, he'll have someones eye out'

Gwlad wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:You'll be saying that when we do the grand slam aswell

Mmm…think it more likely we'll be saying 'watch out for that flying pig, he'll have someones eye out'

Do you actually class that as humour?

nathan wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:You'll be saying that when we do the grand slam aswell

Mmm…think it more likely we'll be saying 'watch out for that flying pig, he'll have someones eye out'

Do you actually class that as humour?

You're right this is much funnier:

"You'll be saying that when we do the grand slam aswell"

doctor_grey wrote:based only upon what we saw today, would either Ford or Farrell be in the squad?

Farrell has reached his limits, Ford seems full of potential but inconsistent. Cant see either there in 2019.

Gwlad wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:based only upon what we saw today, would either Ford or Farrell be in the squad?

Farrell has reached his limits, Ford seems full of potential but inconsistent. Cant see either there in 2019.

Farrell is playing the best rugby of his life. I see no reason why he cannot continue to improve. Currently he and Biggar are head and should above any of the others 6N tens.

Biggar doesn't drop balls over the line though

mikey_dragon wrote:Biggar doesn't drop balls over the line though

Biggers can't be choosers.

Daly has to be 13. He's matured into a fine player. His finish today was top class and his defence was good but he also has distribution skills that frankly I'd like to see in our IC, and he provides a kicking option in the midfield that I think we really need.

10: Farrell
12: Hill
13: Daly

That has a nice balance to it.

I'd also have Goode as FB, but that is probably more contentious.

doctor_grey wrote:based only upon what we saw today, would either Ford or Farrell be in the squad?

Ford has been really disappointing this season - I can't believe he is ahead of Cipriani. Farrell has been excellent though, and one embarrassing drop doesn't change that.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Joe Launchbury will be though. What a player he is. Up with the best locks in the world!

4 Launchbury
5 Kruis
6 Robshaw (Clifford off the bench)
7 Kvesic
8 Billy (Beaumont off the bench)

Now that back 5 has great balance. And the two bench lads will open it right up when they come on!

I think we will actually play:

Launchbury
Itoje
Robshaw
Clifford
Vunipola

With Haskell and Kruis on the bench.

With Kvesic not being a full member of the EPS I'm assuming he isn't currently at the forefront of ones' thinking, but who knows. Given the rumours I might have Clifford and Haskell the wrong way around, similarly with Kruis and Itoje.

The main thing I don't want is an out of form Ford at 10 and Farrell out of position at 12.

Exiledinborders wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:based only upon what we saw today, would either Ford or Farrell be in the squad?

Farrell has reached his limits, Ford seems full of potential but inconsistent. Cant see either there in 2019.

Farrell is playing the best rugby of his life. I see no reason why he cannot continue to improve. Currently he and Biggar are head and should above any of the others 6N tens.

he's reached his ceiling.

I'd be very surprised if we had two new caps in the pack for an away game against Scotland, it basically won't happen.

I'm not really seeing the clamor for Clifford. He's a very exciting prospect but I don't think he's this natural 7 we need and he's still developing. I'm pretty sure he'll be brought in gradually as we have better options available to us at the minute.

Farrell is in great form and has really kicked on this season, he just keeps getting better and is surely in line to start. Cipriani is probably producing his form too late as he was very ordinary in the early season and was kicking in the 60%, that's not going to catch the eye of the England Coach.

DaveM wrote:Daly has to be 13. He's matured into a fine player. His finish today was top class and his defence was good but he also has distribution skills that frankly I'd like to see in our IC, and he provides a kicking option in the midfield that I think we really need.

10: Farrell
12: Hill
13: Daly

That has a nice balance to it.

I'd also have Goode as FB, but that is probably more contentious.

I'd agree with this providing Hill is fit enough. I think he is currently injured & hasn't played much.  Ford can come on later in the game when it breaks up a bit & use his pace & running ability.

At the risk of becoming a yes man, Goode looks in too good a form too ignore at the moment.

Regarding the back 5 it makes logical sense to have Clifford & Itoje on the bench for the first game of the 6Ns.

Gwlad wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:based only upon what we saw today, would either Ford or Farrell be in the squad?

Farrell has reached his limits, Ford seems full of potential but inconsistent. Cant see either there in 2019.

Farrell is playing the best rugby of his life. I see no reason why he cannot continue to improve. Currently he and Biggar are head and should above any of the others 6N tens.

he's reached his ceiling.

I don't see how you can conclude that, given he's playing the best rugby of his career this season and is still a young man. Even if he didn't continue his current improvement, Jones may well get more out of him from just having a fresh perspective.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'd be very surprised if we had two new caps in the pack for an away game against Scotland, it basically won't happen.

I'm not really seeing the clamor for Clifford. He's a very exciting prospect but I don't think he's this natural 7 we need and he's still developing. I'm pretty sure he'll be brought in gradually as we have better options available to us at the minute.

Farrell is in great form and has really kicked on this season, he just keeps getting better and is surely in line to start. Cipriani is probably producing his form too late as he was very ordinary in the early season and was kicking in the 60%, that's not going to catch the eye of the England Coach.

Yes, except Ford has been poor all season.

I think Jones has the leeway to have two new caps in the pack. Plus Itoje and Clifford look very mentally tough to me.

Jones has spoken about 7, and basically said he doesn't think he's got one who is good enough (not a promising start for Kvesic) and so he wants to develop one over a couple of years. He specifically mentioned Clifford at that point, whilst saying he thought he'd end up an 8. The longer term option appears to be Underhill.

Btw, if Kruis and Haskell start I wouldn't be surprised, but I think debuts are not out of the question if the players show up well in training.

I just can't see it Dave, it's a bad move. If either player were the best in their position in the AP I could understand, I just don't think they are.

Ford has been bad but he's proven to a point, I'd prefer him over Cipriani.

Farrell has improved considerably this season greatly helped by a strong pack. His passing accuracy and his kicking out of hand are much better than last year. He's starting to look like the real deal.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I just can't see it Dave, it's a bad move. If either player were the best in their position in the AP I could understand, I just don't think they are.

Ford has been bad but he's proven to a point, I'd prefer him over Cipriani.

Well Ford has proven is that he'll lose every collision and now he isn't even doing the good stuff that sort of made up for that. I'm not sure what more Cipriani can do.

Personally I think Itoje is a better player than Kruis, and he's not a man to be intimidated so I seriously doubt Jones would be worried about starting him. And Jones has made clear he isn't happy with his 7 options. It looks like it will either be Haskell, out of position, or Clifford, out of position. I'd prefer the latter.

In the pack I would go with: - Vunipola, George, Cole, Kruis, Launchbury, Robshaw, Kvesic and Vunipola.

On the bench: - Mullan, Hartley, Thomas, Itoje and Haskell.

I would leave debuts of Clifford and Hill till we play at home.

Only two new starters, one in the starting 8 and one on the bench.

I see no point in Kvesic being on the bench as he does not cover much of the backrow.

Like many others, I am not sure about Haskell starting at 7, but he can cover anywhere in the backrow (as can Clifford).

Interesting to see what Jones does, but I am sure he is not showing all his cards at the moment.

In backs I would go with a courageous choice (may not be what Jones does at all).

Youngs, Farrell, Devoto, Daly, Watson, Nowell and Brown.  With Care, Ford and Joseph on the bench.

Two starters at centre, but as three of the four selected centres have no caps this is slightly unavoidable and Daly has been playing better than Joseph (hope this not another "Tait" situation).

DaveM wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I just can't see it Dave, it's a bad move. If either player were the best in their position in the AP I could understand, I just don't think they are.

Ford has been bad but he's proven to a point, I'd prefer him over Cipriani.

Well Ford has proven is that he'll lose every collision and now he isn't even doing the good stuff that sort of made up for that. I'm not sure what more Cipriani can do.

Personally I think Itoje is a better player than Kruis, and he's not a man to be intimidated so I seriously doubt Jones would be worried about starting him. And Jones has made clear he isn't happy with his 7 options. It looks like it will either be Haskell, out of position, or Clifford, out of position. I'd prefer the latter.

I see your points but can't agree.

Kruis has outplayed Itoje for most of the season and also runs the line, something that Launchbury doesn't and either does Itoje. Clifford is still learning his trade, he's in a way quite untested, he'd be risk.

Yes, but for Jones in his first game, asking England to play in a way they haven't before, basically every player is debuting, and everyone is a risk. For me what makes players like Clifford and Itoje so special is the they rise to the occasion, they don't need protecting.

I'm really excited to see what Jones does.

In what way has Clifford rised though? He's put in some good performances but I'd pick a fair few ahead of him.

I can't see how everyone is debuting, players need to know how to perform under intense pressure, this will be a huge step up for a few.

I like both players but I don't want to see them rushed through. What happens if they fail miserably?

I'd start Kruis and Launchbury and Kvesic, but at 7 I'd probably take Clifford over Haskell

Sgt_Pooly wrote:In what way has Clifford rised though? He's put in some good performances but I'd pick a fair few ahead of him.

I can't see how everyone is debuting, players need to know how to perform under intense pressure, this will be a huge step up for a few.

I like both players but I don't want to see them rushed through. What happens if they fail miserably?

If players have to play under huge pressure to see if they can handle it before starting for England, how can we cap anyone new? Relatively few players are going to play in a lot of cup final matches before internationals. And Haskell at 7, Robshaw at 6 is just the same as the last regime. Swapping the numbers around makes NO difference at all. It's pointless if that's where Jones thought our troubles were.

Clifford has captained the u20s, captained Quins, played in must win matches, won stuff as U20s captain. The only realistic way to test him is by capping him. Ditto Itoje who has also played some of the most prestigious sides in Europe. I don't see when a better opportunity "to test them under pressure" will ever exist. Unless we just aren't going to cap players?

Clifford and Itoje off the bench for me.

4 Launchbury
5 Kruis (Itoje off the bench)
6 Robshaw
7 Kvesic (Clifford off the bench)