England Squad Named

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SQUAD IN FULL

Here it is: Eddie Jones first squad as England head coach.

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Paul Hill (Northampton Saints), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby) *injury replacement for Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Henry Thomas (Bath Rugby) *injury replacement for Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens)

Backs

Chris Ashton (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby) *injury replacement for Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Alex Goode (Saracens), Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs) *injury replacement for Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Marland Yarde (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Per Sky

Chequeredjersey completely agree. Itoje and Clifford do need some gametime definitely, maybe not as starters vs Scotland but certanly off the bench.

Sgt Pooly Itoje and Clifford are two of the brightest forwards prospects in England, need to be trusted by the management. Being picked in the 33 is a good start. I feel you are too critical of both.

Seems like quite a few posters would be happy with two new centres at 12 and 13, I think that's quite a big risk though I guess there's not much choice.

I wonder if Eddie Jones will go for the unorthodox

12.Manu
13.Daly

It would get the in form 13 onto the pitch and one of England's most threatening ball carriers there too.

You don't need to just throw them in though. If Clifford was totally pulling up tress I'd be tempted to throw him in, but he's not. He's playing well and looking like a good prospect but at this moment in time Haskell is the better player with bags of experience.

Bring Clifford on from the bench, give him a start against Italy. Let the lad grow into International rugby rather than throwing him in to possibly fail. Imagine if he has stage fright and plays a shocker only to be dragged off at half time. There's no rush with these lads, it's not a race.

Too critical? I said use them from the bench, exactly the same as you!

Personally if the safe option at 7 is Haskell, I would prefer Kvesic and Clifford in that order to start. Clifford to cover bench for Kvesic starting and Haskell if Clifford does. I'd really prefer not to see Tuilagi until later in the tournament at the earliest. He's coming back after a series of lay offs so would prefer not to risk his longer term health.

Tuilagi will be nowhere near ready for a good few weeks yet. He needs to find some form and get fully match fit.

Sgt Pooly yes you would use them on the bench but only because your favoured players are injured. I don't mind if either start though.

You say don't rush. It's a fine balancing act. You can squander golden opportunities to introduce players earlier too. I still think the RWC warm ups were woefully squandered.

Should have tried out Ksevic and Itoje then IMO.

Lancaster got the selection balancing act wrong on a few occasions and was one factor in the RWC failure. Showing trust in certain players and not enough in others. Or alternatively trusting a player early on but not later.

It's not easy but that's the management's job.

12 conundrum is perhaps the most difficult. There is IMO no clear solution.

The pack should be a straightforward selection - most of us agree on what it should be.

When does Jones cut the number down again? May get a better idea of what he's thinking then.

World cup warm ups are not a time to be trying out numerous new player,s but we've already been through that.

And yes I would only try them from the bench as others are injured. I'd have preferred Slater in the squad to Itoje, that's just personal preference.

If it were a choice of Haskell and Clifford, you would honestly go Haskell?

No 7&1/2 wrote:If it were a choice of Haskell and Clifford, you would honestly go Haskell?

Better to ask yourself.. does a backrow combination of Robshaw, Haskell & Vunipola tick all boxes?

Can't really say much if anything on Clifford but the above combo has disaster written all over it.

Sgt Pooly

World cup warm ups are an ideal time to try out new players because it doesn't really matter if you lose one or even all of them as long as you perform in the big games. Unfortunately for England they foolishly gave game time to the wrong players.

I completely agree it's good to ease in players but England squandered that opportunity....

I hope Clifford and Itoje continue to show that your lack of faith in both is wrong.

Not sure it would be a disaster fa, but I would personally go with the longer term options now as I think they're better 7s than Haskell anyway.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not sure it would be a disaster fa, but I would personally go with the longer term options now as I think they're better 7s than Haskell anyway.

well not on a bergamasco putting on the no.9 jersey level sure but it beggars belief if that is a combination to build a team from.

If Itoje and whoever weren't in the coaches plans it would be a waste of a warm up. There's always players who won't get in the England squad as we simply have lots of good options but currently few outstanding options. For all you think not giving Itoje time there's another who thinks Slater should have, Kitchener etc. No one was obviously left behind who was amazing, the biggest 'upset' was probably Burrell and he's hardly the 2nd coming.

I doubt Haskell will be around mid to long term, think it's a safe bet he'll be off after this 6Ns; there's still hope he won't make the cut. We're slightly fortunate to start off with Scotland and Italy to play around with it a bit but they'll have to be on their game all the same.

no 7 & 1/2 you are making the wrong assumption that Lancaster made correct decisions.

We quite clearly know that Lancaster got things wrong, even you as a Lancaster fanboy has to admit that.

Of course it's a what if but when certain players were playing well it made sense to consider them.

I still believe that Lancaster's mistakes were there for all to see even before the RWC shambles.

Remember Lancaster wanted to leave George out of his squad - that was a massive howler.

Yea 7 1/2, I'd take Haskell over Clifford every day of the week on current ability. I can see the excitement to get Clifford involved but he's hardly David Pocock, he's still showing promise.

Beshocked, here we go again. It's not a lack of faith, I think both players are good and show a lot of promise. I just don't want to rush them, ease them both in.

The "Itoje for the WC" has been done to death(with BS), he didn't go, get over it.

A lot people on here on here take experience with a pinch of salt but the All Blacks didn't win the WC with a few caps in the pack. I agree Haskell will be moved on sooner or later but he's had a fantastic season and can put in huge games, he just sadly doesn't do it enough.

Better to keep a bit of experience around the camp to help the younger guys integrate.

I think I was one of the first banging my head against the wall for Burgess being picked as a centre and for him being mpicked with Barritt in midfield so it's not as if I've never thought he got it wrong. We're really talking about giving time to players on the very fringes on the squad though so for me it would have been a bit of a waste of time picking Slater if he'd already decided that he had a his locks sorted along with guys like Attwood who didn't make it. No real point and no benefit to the squad.

The exact reason I'd go with Clifford or preferably Kvesic. Haskell has been there and never proved over his time he can be a solution. Maybe Jones can get him to some sort of consistency, but I'm not holding my breath! I have no doubt he'll be great if picked for 1 game and rubbish for the rest.

Sgt Pooly

Clifford might not be David Pocock but I don't think many opposition fans are going to be worried about facing a backrow of Robshaw,Haskell and Billy. It's a known quantity.

Ireland faced that backrow in last year's 6 nations and easily outplayed them, Haskell in particular racked up the penalty count. Haskell had one good game against Wales then played 2nd fiddle to both Robshaw and Billy.

Experience is important but can be overstated. You mention NZ, do you think Haskell is as good as any of their backrow? When can you honestly say that Haskell last played well for England? Is last year's game vs Wales good enough?

It was still a mistake by Lancaster to leave out Itoje, Itoje wasn't the only player who was let down by Lancaster either. It's hard to let that poor decision go because Lancaster's poor decisions damaged England's RWC chances.

England must make the correct decisions if they are to progress.

Picking Hartley as captain and Haskell as 7 are poor decisions IMO. Two big ones too.

Has anyone seen this? http://www.therugbyanalyst.com/?p=64

It's a brilliant read if you can spare 5 minutes. As well as Kvesic and Wallace are playing this season, when compared to Pocock you realise just how high he has set the bar for modern opensides. He is utterly incredible.

No of course Itoje should have expected to be picked at lock or 6 during the warm ups. It was only Itoje who was obviously on the fringes as well with no others to consider. Come on beshocked no England coach should be even considering giving all his potential players a fair crack of the whip. Impossible to do with our resources.

Pocock is now the best openside, not playing at openside in the world. He is following the true master in McCaw though.

Not saying its the be all and end all but Pocock takes his guns training to whole different level. Warburton is probably the next best guns wise and is it any surprise those guys are best after wily old McCaw? Yet they're not heavy on the ground.

Its not about packing serious muscle its about targetting your training rather than gym monkeys like Etzebeth & Haskell looking to get their traps to rival Arnie.

Pocock is the king of ambush rugby. Its almost like AUSpurposely drop tackles a few phases in so that the lone runner (often a front five player) runs into the midfield on his own where Pocock sits like a lion in the savannah. You can see it a mile off.

Their 'guns'? Still not sure I'd put Warburton down as the best 7 in Wales let alone the 2nd best in the world though.

In decision making which Haskell doesn't excel at for me anyway, hence he can fluke a game and be top quality but then select the wrong options the next 3 and look poor or anonymous. If Jones is looking at a very simple plan for his 7 ok but I can't see it working over a period of 3,4, more games.

no 7 & 1/2 when he was one of the form players at the time yes. Look at whose in form, whose got the potential too and pick them.

No the England coach doesn't need to give everyone a go. Just needs to make the right decisions.

fa0019 I agree. Can anyone honestly say that Haskell's decision making is top notch? It's what you need.

David Pocock according to his wiki page is only 6,2 and 16 and a half stone.

S.Armitage is 5,9 and under 17 stone.

Mccaw - 6,2 and 17 stone.

Warburton - 6,3 and just under 17 stone

In comparison Haskell is 6,4 and almost 19st.

In the end it comes down to which players you prefer though beshocked and you don't seem very open to the possibility that other players were in good form, offered good options or were settled members of the team anyway.

Given the main difference between the England who finished the 6Ns and the one who went limply out of the WC was deciding not to bother with the backs we could have probably had Eales and Johnson at their peaks and gone out.

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 when he was one of the form players at the time yes. Look at whose in form, whose got the potential too and pick them.

No the England coach doesn't need to give everyone a go. Just needs to make the right decisions.

fa0019 I agree. Can anyone honestly say that Haskell's decision making is top notch? It's what you need.

David Pocock according to his wiki page is only 6,2 and 16 and a half stone.

S.Armitage is 5,9 and under 17 stone.

Mccaw - 6,2 and 17 stone.

Warburton - 6,3 and just under 17 stone

In comparison Haskell is 6,4 and almost 19st.

Pocock is 5'11. Warbs is 6'2. All the weights look exaggerated too and the stats people are known to do this. That said none of these players ever struggle with physicality.

No 7 & 1/2 you can interpret it your own way but that doesn't make it right.

E.g. you thinking that Hartley is a boy scout when quite clearly his numerous bans show he isn't.

Ultimately it comes back to evidence. I am open to other players being in good form hence why I wanted to see Ksevic feature in the RWC, why I wanted to see Nowell picked on the wing.

Sadly for Nowell he evidently wasn't world class in training.

I find it odd that you say the backs were the deciding factor when most of your posts defending Ford are that he's only performing poorly because his forwards aren't giving him an armchair ride. Can't have it both ways.

Forwards are generally more important than the backs.

mikey dragon I am showing the weight comparisons to show that you don't to be a muscle bound powerhouse to be a good backrower. I think a bit of weight can be good if it helps with the power but Haskell lacks the subtedly and finesse other backrowers have.

To be honest I think Haskell might be okay vs Scotland but I would worry about him vs better backrowers.

Cowan,Hardie,Denton doesn't have me quivering in fear either.

I think both Robshaw and Billy are better than their counterparts which could counterbalance the lack of confidence in Haskell.

Again beshocked, you don't have to make stuff up to try and prove a point e.g. boy scout. The training thing which you comically still don't get! What is it you believe I said in relation to training which was wrong?

The backs performed below par as they were stunted by a very unbalanced midfield. It didn't bring out the best of those picked. In a way the selection was confused there as we have better players to play a limited game plan than those picked. lancaster lost his bottle there, should have continued as we were in the 6Ns.

Neil Back and Richard Hill showed that you don't have to be huge to be an effective international flanker. Speed, body angle and commitment count for more than outright size. Good decision making even more so.

In the run-up to the RWC, England seemed to lose a sense of when to commit to the breakdown and when to hold back. It may have been through a failure to read how the interpretation was changing, an unwillingness to concede penalties or simply other teams working them out, but if Eddie can fix that things will improve. I can see why Haskell is being considered - if you keep it simple, he can deliver, and Murrayfield away isn't the best place to start a neophyte.

Poorfour wrote:Neil Back and Richard Hill showed that you don't have to be huge to be an effective international flanker. Speed, body angle and commitment count for more than outright size. Good decision making even more so.

In the run-up to the RWC, England seemed to lose a sense of when to commit to the breakdown and when to hold back. It may have been through a failure to read how the interpretation was changing, an unwillingness to concede penalties or simply other teams working them out, but if Eddie can fix that things will improve. I can see why Haskell is being considered - if you keep it simple, he can deliver, and Murrayfield away isn't the best place to start a neophyte.

Backs fitness was off the chart for his era though. A real model pro. I think a lot of players would have now caught up and his effectiveness skill on skill would have been neutralised a little today.
Not to say he wasn't a top class player but he was well advanced in fitness and nutrition when many rivals weren't.

Hartley confirmed as captain

Oh well. good luck to him

So George will not be starting then.

FFS

What does Hartley even bring?

He is steady in the scrum and Lineout and he has a bit of "Edge"

George does that and then some.

Hartley is a very very good hooker. We'll do well with him and George this 6Ns.

Still, the BBC seem quite pleased.

I can see Hartley proving a lot of people wrong this six nations. He performs best when under media scrutiny, its when he's got no pressure on him to focus his temperament that he can backfire.

So England choose a captain who got a hefty ban for calling a ref a cheat. Hope for England's sake Hartley has improved his communications skills with refs, otherwise may be interesting times ahead. Not to mention the efforts to get under the skin of a guy who might be charitably called temperamental. Think it's a mad decision by Jones, but hey I'm irish what do I care.

I don't see why you need a captain to be announced so soon, you could pick a match day captain and things would run just as well plus the added benefit that everyone knows their place is up for grabs if they don't perform.

It's so fun to be an England fan.

Feel optimistic about being hosts of the 2015 RWC.

After the RWC 2015, feel gutted after the England team has been unceremoniously dumped out of the RWC.

Feel optimistic again as England pick experienced international coach and a promising looking setup in the aftermath of RWC.

See a good looking squad picked.

Feel gutted as the biggest thug in England rugby picked as England captain, not even the best performing player in his position.

Why oh why can't international coaches just make intelligent decisions?

Sends out the wrong message.

We can kiss those 50/50 calls goodbye, no Ref in their right mind would take Hartley seriously.

Why?

No dramas with Hartley. He's not in great nick but a definite starter when playing well.

Disappointing. George has been comfortably the form hooker in the AP this season (arguably last season too), and to me it sends the wrong message to make someone who shouldn't be first choice captain...

beshocked wrote:Why oh why can't international coaches just make intelligent decisions?

If there's one thing EJ isn't it's unintelligent.

What is the form team at the moment would we say?

Vunipola George Hill
Launchbury Kruis
Robshaw Kvesic
Beaumont
Simpson Cipriani
Lewington Mallinder Daly Yarde(?)
Goode