England Squad Named

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SQUAD IN FULL

Here it is: Eddie Jones first squad as England head coach.

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Paul Hill (Northampton Saints), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby) *injury replacement for Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Henry Thomas (Bath Rugby) *injury replacement for Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens)

Backs

Chris Ashton (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby) *injury replacement for Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Alex Goode (Saracens), Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs) *injury replacement for Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Marland Yarde (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Per Sky

ChequeredJersey wrote:We will probably will, but I for one feel like I gave Lancaster a bit too much of my faith so I'm probably overcompensating

Ha ha ha

I know it has been talked to death but i still can't get over Hartley as captain. He promised to keep his aggression,but i don't think he realizes he isn't some rock hard Fitzpatrick like player, he is a petulant brat who can't stand the heat and explodes when the pressure rises.

DirtyRucker7 wrote:I know it has been talked to death but i still can't get over Hartley as captain. He promised to keep his aggression,but i don't think he realizes he isn't some rock hard Fitzpatrick like player, he is a petulant brat who can't stand the heat and explodes when the pressure rises.

And will be targeted. But its D Day for him. Either he deals and handles his aggression and channels it at last bearing the responsibility of Capt and leader, or he folds and we get more of the same in which case IMO Eddie will can him just as easily

I think there is an element of nervousness around Eddie right now, he is making radical choices and is plain speaking with no reference to any culture except winning. He seems immune to pressure and is changing the game. I bet the Old Farts are getting properly uncomfortable…I say, what will this colonial chap do next?!!! its not very sporting is it?

Is Eddie really making radical choices? If you start from accepting that he wasn't going to have Robshaw as 7 or captain, what has he actually done?

He's made Hartley captain, which is a little controversial but the alternatives with any significant captaincy experience are either a demonstrably worse idea (Haskell for captain! Yay!) or less sure of their place than Hartley (Youngs, Care).

He's dropped Tom Youngs. Not a surprise given the desire to focus on basics.

There are a few changes in the backs, mostly injury enforced, and a few new players. You'd expect both from a new season, let alone a new coach.

He's probably going to put Haskell at 7. I've said years ago that I thought Haskell has played his best international rugby there. He's not a classic 7, but in terms of the primary job that Eddie has set out (get to the breakdown, get over the ball, stay put) I think we can all agree that he can do it. I don't know what's wrong with Kvesic, but he's now been overlooked by successive international coaches, so I am starting to wonder whether they might be onto something.

He's trying a new option at 12. This is probably the most radical change, but even here a) there's no established option and b) his - and most people's - likely first choice (Slade) is injured.

Gwlad wrote:

DirtyRucker7 wrote:I know it has been talked to death but i still can't get over Hartley as captain. He promised to keep his aggression,but i don't think he realizes he isn't some rock hard Fitzpatrick like player, he is a petulant brat who can't stand the heat and explodes when the pressure rises.

And will be targeted. But its D Day for him. Either he deals and handles his aggression and channels it at last bearing the responsibility of Capt and leader, or he folds and we get more of the same in which case IMO Eddie will can him just as easily

I think there is an element of nervousness around Eddie right now, he is making radical choices and is plain speaking with no reference to any culture except winning. He seems immune to pressure and is changing the game. I bet the Old Farts are getting properly uncomfortable…I say, what will this colonial chap do next?!!! its not very sporting is it?

I like it Gwlad... 

Hartley....the controversy is a bit overwrought. He ranks very low down the leaderboard for cards at international levels. Others such as Matfield, Habana, and quite a few other 'names' rank higher than Hartley, who has what ? about three cards in 60+ England caps. Not exactly a card machine in England shirt.
Overall I like that Eddie is choosing a bit of attitude, in preference to angelic head prefect preferences of Bomber.

maestegmafia wrote:If England don't do well will you fans give Eddie the time and patience to get it right...?

Reading a lot of hostility towards him and you haven't even seen him name the first team yet!

Every new interntaional coach needs at least 12 months in the job before you can really judge him. I'm confident about this 6Ns as an England fan, hopefully we get the bounce of the ball this year and we may well end up with the big one. Even if we do things can turn very quickly and Jones won't have proved himself or shown himself as not up to the task if we finish bottom.

Lancaster never really had his mind firmly on winning. Culture, connection with the fans, ethos, the future, etc. were his goals. Eddie has nothing else but winning the next game on his. This selection is his starting point or baseline. Expect changes if players don't buy in to the 'must win' imperative. Looking forward to seeing how the competition pans out.

Lancaster clearly wanted to win every game, bit silly to suggest otherwise.

gregortree wrote:
Hartley....the controversy is a bit overwrought. He ranks very low down the leaderboard for cards at international levels. Others such as Matfield, Habana, and quite a few other 'names' rank higher than Hartley, who has what ? about three cards in 60+ England caps. Not exactly a card machine in England shirt.
Overall I like that Eddie is choosing a bit of attitude, in preference to angelic head prefect preferences of Bomber.

Hartley's not picked up many cards in International matches. It's the games he's missed through being banned from bad behaviour in club matches that are the problem...

Whatever happens, assuming Eddie is going to be a success, (and that is, at this stage, still a big assumption) a lot of that success will be down to the foundations laid by Lancaster. The squad was never going to be significantly different (EPS change limits or otherwise) and the new faces were mostly the faces who were going to get a look in anyways.

Lancaster did not manage to squeeze the best out of his team and lost his nerve when it mattered most. Eddie might well get to the next level with team with the odd change of tactics and a few tweaks.

England of Lancs only needed a 5% improvement to close out a few of those very close defeats. Last yrs six nations...mega scorelines and what ? One try, 5 points off clinching the championship for England ?

lostinwales

It's not the squad of 33 that's disappointing. It's the usage of the squad so far.

Perhaps Eddie might well be a success but so far early days of course but the absentees from the 23 don't fill me with confidence going into the first game.

England should still win but instead of being 70-30 with strong selection I think it could be 50-50.

The expected selection of Farrell at 12 and Haskell at 7 is not something I agree with either. Primarily because I've seen them both be ineffectual.

These selections are ones I would expect from Lancaster, not a new coach looking to put his own stamp on the team.

I do understand the necessity for experience but there needs to be some selection of form.

I think it's wrong that Daly and Itoje aren't in the 23.

Poorfour sadly your negative mindset is why England will struggle to get back to no 1 in the world.

The same old argument - be patient, he'll get there eventually, a player can never develop at international level if not given the opportunity. Of course picking them at the right time is important, the time is now for the likes of Itoje,Clifford/Ksevic and Daly.


you say that there are several good locks ahead of Itoje.

Which ones? Itoje has been in better form than Lawes, been on par with Kruis, outplaying him on occasions but being outplayed on others - they are team mates. You say he lacks Kruis all round skill set, I disagree. I think he's more powerful, better at the breakdown. He doesn't run the lineout but that's because Kruis does.

Slater and Attwood - injured.

England are 8th in the world. Has to be some change or is mediocrity where you want England to stay?

Some of you haven't learnt from the RWC disaster.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:If England don't do well will you fans give Eddie the time and patience to get it right...?

Reading a lot of hostility towards him and you haven't even seen him name the first team yet!

Every new interntaional coach needs at least 12 months in the job before you can really judge him. I'm confident about this 6Ns as an England fan, hopefully we get the bounce of the ball this year and we may well end up with the big one. Even if we do things can turn very quickly and Jones won't have proved himself or shown himself as not up to the task if we finish bottom.

12 months? Apparently Lancaster needed 8 years, because in 2019 England would be ready to win the world cup!

8th in the world is a bit of false position though. I'd expect the group of players to continue to improve, don't think the majority (even under Lancaster) are/were at their peak.

Looking forward to seeing Hill and Clifford at some point in the game. Seriously impressed with Hill, taking to everything like a duck to water, if he can do the same in Scotland it'll be amazing for Him, Saints and England.

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:If England don't do well will you fans give Eddie the time and patience to get it right...?

Reading a lot of hostility towards him and you haven't even seen him name the first team yet!

Every new interntaional coach needs at least 12 months in the job before you can really judge him. I'm confident about this 6Ns as an England fan, hopefully we get the bounce of the ball this year and we may well end up with the big one. Even if we do things can turn very quickly and Jones won't have proved himself or shown himself as not up to the task if we finish bottom.

12 months? Apparently Lancaster needed 8 years, because in 2019 England would be ready to win the world cup!

Why did you think England would be strong favourites at the world cup?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:If England don't do well will you fans give Eddie the time and patience to get it right...?

Reading a lot of hostility towards him and you haven't even seen him name the first team yet!

Every new interntaional coach needs at least 12 months in the job before you can really judge him. I'm confident about this 6Ns as an England fan, hopefully we get the bounce of the ball this year and we may well end up with the big one. Even if we do things can turn very quickly and Jones won't have proved himself or shown himself as not up to the task if we finish bottom.

12 months? Apparently Lancaster needed 8 years, because in 2019 England would be ready to win the world cup!

Why did you think England would be strong favourites at the world cup?

That was the impression Lancaster was under, and most if not all on here backed him.

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:If England don't do well will you fans give Eddie the time and patience to get it right...?

Reading a lot of hostility towards him and you haven't even seen him name the first team yet!

Every new interntaional coach needs at least 12 months in the job before you can really judge him. I'm confident about this 6Ns as an England fan, hopefully we get the bounce of the ball this year and we may well end up with the big one. Even if we do things can turn very quickly and Jones won't have proved himself or shown himself as not up to the task if we finish bottom.

12 months? Apparently Lancaster needed 8 years, because in 2019 England would be ready to win the world cup!

Why did you think England would be strong favourites at the world cup?

That was the impression Lancaster was under, and most if not all on here backed him.

The one just gone (2015)? I thought England were among 6 or 7 who could win it but I didn't think they were strong favourites; are you saying you thought they were? How long do you think a new coach requires before you can make a judgment on anything?

"Most if not on here backed him"

No they didn't.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:If England don't do well will you fans give Eddie the time and patience to get it right...?

Reading a lot of hostility towards him and you haven't even seen him name the first team yet!

Every new interntaional coach needs at least 12 months in the job before you can really judge him. I'm confident about this 6Ns as an England fan, hopefully we get the bounce of the ball this year and we may well end up with the big one. Even if we do things can turn very quickly and Jones won't have proved himself or shown himself as not up to the task if we finish bottom.

12 months? Apparently Lancaster needed 8 years, because in 2019 England would be ready to win the world cup!

Why did you think England would be strong favourites at the world cup?

That was the impression Lancaster was under, and most if not all on here backed him.

The one just gone (2015)? I thought England were among 6 or 7 who could win it but I didn't think they were strong favourites; are you saying you thought they were? How long do you think a new coach requires before you can make a judgment on anything?

Well no, that's not what I said. I mentioned the 2019 cup - 8 years away from the time Lancaster was appointed. Me personally, I'd agree with 12 months. But Lancaster was the one who preferred 8 years .

Needing 8 years to win the world cup isn't quite the same thing as only being judged only after 8 years but yes I see what you're saying that coaches would ideally just like to get on with it.

I think it was hoped that being the host nation we had a good chance to win the 2015 world cup, but if not then at least make a decent fist of it and get to semi final/final.

Jones has changed a number of players - look at the list of experienced players who are not there Youngs, Wood, Morgan, Parling, Twelvetrees, Burrell, Barritt, etc.  I don't think he was ever going to go out and pick 33 new players.  To his credit Lancaster did bring in some young players who are now becoming established members of the squad - Launchbury, Kruis, Watson, Nowell, etc.  It is the team performance that we are hoping Jones can change, plus the mindset, rather than just a change of players.  There are no obvious players who were not picked by Jones - Cipriani, Armstrong - but they are at best 50:50 choices with someone else.  So I am in the give Jones a chance and lets see what happens.  I think he has picked a team to win in Scotland 'at all costs', hence Haskell at 7 for now and Farrell at 12.

SL got the selection more or less right (with a couple of notable exceptions) – it was the overall game-plan (whatever that was) that looked flaky. But where SL did struggled with personnel, it’s disappointing (after what he has said) that EJ is not immediately dealing with the problem areas of BR balance and centre combo. This is a 6N game against Scotland for gawds sake – no offense but if you can’t introduce a proper IC and OS (or the nearest we have to them) for this game when the hell can you? I want England to win the competition, but I’d much rather we started with improving the side as soon as possible. SL dithered with the back-line for too long and we know where that lead. Come on Eddie - carpe diem, we’ll beat the Scots anyway!

Armstrong?

Armitage has as many detractors as fans. "He is a luxury player in a team stuffed with all stars".  "He deliberately turned his back on the English game to chase the euro", etc.  I think there are as many people disappointed that Will Fraser or Matt Kvesic didn't get their chance with Lancaster as Armitage omission.

On the back of the world cup - Scotland should have beaten Australia and got into the semi final of the world cup, whilst England were awful.  Why do people think England simply have to turn up at Murrayfield to win?

I see that it would be possible to beat Scotland with Haskell at 7 and Farrell at 12 but I am not sure that combination would beat any of the SH teams.  

Not trying in any way to be detrimental to Scotland.  The match could go either way and Scotland are at home, so very difficult to say there is a clear favourite.

If the above is just a stop gap, maybe OK?

Ah, Armitage?!

no 7 & 1/2 we are 8th in the world because we failed to make the RWC quarter finals. Failed to beat Wales or Australia at Twickenham which is not good.

If England want to be respected again we need to find the right balance betweening winning and bringing in new talent.

It would help if England utilised their resources properly.

nlpnlp

I want to be optimistic about England's 6 nations prospects but the selection vs Scotland isn't a good start.

England must solve the breakdown issue and centre issue - neither Haskell or Farrell do that.

Perhaps EJ has a long term plan, hopefully he does.

Just personally think we're a better team than the rankings show, fair enough if you agree with them.

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 we are 8th in the world because we failed to make the RWC quarter finals. Failed to beat Wales or Australia at Twickenham which is not good.

If England want to be respected again we need to find the right balance betweening winning and bringing in new talent.

It would help if England utilised their resources properly.

nlpnlp

I want to be optimistic about England's 6 nations prospects but the selection vs Scotland isn't a good start.

England must solve the breakdown issue and centre issue - neither Haskell or Farrell do that.

Perhaps EJ has a long term plan, hopefully he does.

Everybody knows that you mean pick more Saracens players.

Apologies No 7&1/2 - public school education and dyslexia.

Beshocked - Is Farrell not just a short term pick until Manu is fit? But I don't disagree with your sentiments that Farrell and Haskell are not long term solutions.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:If England don't do well will you fans give Eddie the time and patience to get it right...?

Reading a lot of hostility towards him and you haven't even seen him name the first team yet!

Every new interntaional coach needs at least 12 months in the job before you can really judge him. I'm confident about this 6Ns as an England fan, hopefully we get the bounce of the ball this year and we may well end up with the big one. Even if we do things can turn very quickly and Jones won't have proved himself or shown himself as not up to the task if we finish bottom.

This is typical of the opposite thinking to Eddie. Eddie wants to win next week. He will feel like a failure if he doesn't. Bit silly to think he could go on losing for 12 months before being judged.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just personally think we're a better team than the rankings show, fair enough if you agree with them.

Some people don't get it. Winning counts, losing doesn't.

There is no real excuse for not including a genuine openside, as there are some available and fit. I wonder if the stopgap is until they can sort out the Underhill situation?

I have sympathy for IC problems though. Depending on opposition it would seem (from initial squad selection) that Jones is looking at either Slade or Manu for the role - each bringing different things so can capitalise on different game plans. Both not fit, so he ignored the likes of Barritt, Burrell, Eastmond & Twelvetrees who have been tried and found wanting. However the replacements in the EPS were Devoto, a guy who barely plays for Bath, and Hill who limped off after 25 minutes on Boxing day and has not been seen since.

Should Farrell be selected at 12 for Scotland it will be a stopgap selection and one forced by either injury or incompetence.

englandglory4ever wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:If England don't do well will you fans give Eddie the time and patience to get it right...?

Reading a lot of hostility towards him and you haven't even seen him name the first team yet!

Every new interntaional coach needs at least 12 months in the job before you can really judge him. I'm confident about this 6Ns as an England fan, hopefully we get the bounce of the ball this year and we may well end up with the big one. Even if we do things can turn very quickly and Jones won't have proved himself or shown himself as not up to the task if we finish bottom.

This is typical of the opposite thinking to Eddie. Eddie wants to win next week. He will feel like a failure if he doesn't. Bit silly to think he could go on losing for 12 months before being judged.

So if he loses to Scotland we should make a decision he's not right and sack him? If he loses 1 game and finishes 2nd on points we should sack him?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 we are 8th in the world because we failed to make the RWC quarter finals. Failed to beat Wales or Australia at Twickenham which is not good.

If England want to be respected again we need to find the right balance betweening winning and bringing in new talent.

It would help if England utilised their resources properly.

nlpnlp

I want to be optimistic about England's 6 nations prospects but the selection vs Scotland isn't a good start.

England must solve the breakdown issue and centre issue - neither Haskell or Farrell do that.

Perhaps EJ has a long term plan, hopefully he does.

Everybody knows that you mean pick more Saracens players.

Sgt Pooly crazy isn't it. Pick some of the most in form players in European club rugby. Picking players from perhaps the currently strongest side in European club rugby. I am not even advocating every player - just some.

Oh and Daly isn't a Saracens player yet I thought he should have been in the 23.

Ksevic is another unfortunate to miss out.

npnlp how short term is it? Lancaster utilised Farrell at centre in the RWC and in previous matches. It's not exactly a new concept.

As for Haskell again it's not new - Lancaster picked Haskell,Robshaw,Billy in 2015 6 nations. Robshaw and Haskell swapping shirts means nothing in this scenario.

Basically the 23 is the same under Lancaster or Jones? Except a different captain.

Seems that Graham Dawe was invited to Pennyhill Park yesterday for a bit of scrum doctoring.

http://www.plymouthalbion.com/albion-boss-dawe-passes-on-some-knowledge-to-england/?platform=hootsuite

You're like a broken record Beshocked.

I do like the way Jones is going about things, hopefully results will match.

englandglory4ever wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just personally think we're a better team than the rankings show, fair enough if you agree with them.

Some people don't get it. Winning counts, losing doesn't.

All teams lose games, but personally on the basis of judging England now I think they're better than their ranking, you don't. Lancaster clearly wanted to win every game but was also focusing on developing the team in the mid to long term as well.

Simple question for you, would you want Jones to fall on his sword if England don't win the Grand Slam?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Not impressed if this leads to what we are all imagining.  

In fact very unimpressed.... But I'll judge it on the selected team and the performances over the next 9 weeks.

Are you concerned we will find a way to lose that one big game (again) and come in second (again)?

Excuse my ignorance, but is it normal to name a 23 man squad this early?

Sgt Pooly of course you would. It's as if Lancaster is still England coach.

no 7 & 1/2 think 3 losses could see him on thin ice but should probably be retained. 4 or 5 losses would put in real danger of sacking.

2nd in 6 nations is the par course.

2nd is par for Lancaster, if Jones ends up with 4 losses I think a few would have to accept Lancaster was doing a great job! Think personally we'll win the title, maybe with GS if we get a bit of luck but I think we have made our choice and have to give the man time now.

yappysnap wrote:In all honesty it was never really about a new dawn and sweeping changes in the team.

Lancasters selections were always 90% correct with usually 1 or 2 bizarre calls.

What we needed/need from Jones is the right selections for his gameplan. And for his gameplan and tactics, training of the players in camp and on field leadership to all be better then Lancasters.

Jones has made the bold call of fielding almost exactly the same squad as Lancaster. This means to my mind he also agrees it's far more about tactics then the players.

Of course it could also be that he's killing two birds with one stone here. Giving a lot of experienced players the chance to prove they've still got it, and playing his most experienced side in a competitive tournament. If it comes off he has a good chance of winning the championship. If it doesn't he can say he's tested these players, they're not up to scratch and cap a lot of others over the summer.

Very important point Yappy.

Poorfour wrote:Is Eddie really making radical choices? If you start from accepting that he wasn't going to have Robshaw as 7 or captain, what has he actually done?

He's made Hartley captain, which is a little controversial but the alternatives with any significant captaincy experience are either a demonstrably worse idea (Haskell for captain! Yay!) or less sure of their place than Hartley (Youngs, Care).

He's dropped Tom Youngs. Not a surprise given the desire to focus on basics.

There are a few changes in the backs, mostly injury enforced, and a few new players. You'd expect both from a new season, let alone a new coach.

He's probably going to put Haskell at 7. I've said years ago that I thought Haskell has played his best international rugby there. He's not a classic 7, but in terms of the primary job that Eddie has set out (get to the breakdown, get over the ball, stay put) I think we can all agree that he can do it. I don't know what's wrong with Kvesic, but he's now been overlooked by successive international coaches, so I am starting to wonder whether they might be onto something.

He's trying a new option at 12. This is probably the most radical change, but even here a) there's no established option and b) his - and most people's - likely first choice (Slade) is injured.

I was wondering this very thing last night. Lancaster and Rowntree didn't take to him, now Eddie, though he hasn't played a game yet, is seemingly not convinced by him either. And im sure he would have got the opinion of George Smith on the matter.

Its a curious one.

rapidsnowman wrote:Excuse my ignorance, but is it normal to name a 23 man squad this early?

This is not definitely the squad. The agreement with the clubs is that 10 players will be released for the weekends fixtures, and then go back to camp. Now in all likelihood the 10 released will not be in the matchday 23, but not always certain. sometimes they want to give extra game time to a player.

The same thing will happen next week, then it will be the matchday 23 retained.

Oh and by the way I should add I don't think Goode should be on the bench.

Should either be starting at 15 with Farrell at 10 as another playmaker in the backline or shouldn't be in the 23.

Poorly utilised as bench option by Lancaster.

beshocked wrote:Oh and by the way I should add I don't think Goode should be on the bench.

Should either be starting at 15 with Farrell at 10 as another playmaker in the backline or shouldn't be in the 23.

Poorly utilised as bench option by Lancaster.

Have to agree, both Watson and Nowell can cover 15 without any difficulty IMO

Goode only seems to cover one position - FB.  If one of the wingers was injured, then either JJ moves to wing but then the centres would Devoto and Farrell??  Or Brown moves to wing (with Goode at FB) which never seemed to work.

Goode can play FH, but then Farrell/Ford/Devoto are sort of forming an orderly queue.

I would much prefer one of Roko/Yarde/Daly (though Daly and Devoto on the bench would again be odd).  Watson then covers FB.

There is no guarantee, yet, that Goode will be on the bench. FB is a specialist position and should Brown pull up in training they will have wanted goode in camp for as long as possible.

Of course if he is in the retained 23 next week, well we know