England Squad Named

First topic message reminder :

SQUAD IN FULL

Here it is: Eddie Jones first squad as England head coach.

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Paul Hill (Northampton Saints), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby) *injury replacement for Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Henry Thomas (Bath Rugby) *injury replacement for Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens)

Backs

Chris Ashton (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby) *injury replacement for Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Alex Goode (Saracens), Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs) *injury replacement for Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Marland Yarde (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Per Sky

fa0019 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You seem a pretty confident Scottish fan Fa. More judgements which seem based on international matches a fair while ago though.

I think Scotland should win yes.

a few reasons...

Scotland have a decent set piece and things like scrum prowess doesn't drop away automatically. England have Hartley back which is a good thing but Mako starting should be a worry to anyone.  Nel is one of the premier tightheads in the game so should fancy his chances against Mako.
Lineout both decent, a fair contest.

Backrow it looks like England have better carriers in Billy and Haskell but may be outworked on the floor.

Placekickers. Laidlaw is world class within the 40m line. Probably better than Farrell but Farrell has superior range. 10s. Ford is probably better running a backline but  England's backline doesn't look threatening with Farrell at 12. Everytime he has played there England don't seem to function as England don't have someone capable of attacking from 12.

It doesn't seem to me how England are outright favourites and given Scotland are at home they really should have the upper hand in a closely matched game. England do well when they have superior forwards. I don't see much difference in the backline. Without their forwards dominance, with this probably backline I think Scotland should fancy their chances. Should but that's on paper only.

Sarries (the best team in Europe) seem quite happy with Mako at TH, so I value their opinion.

And Eddie jones has said....Scotland are favorites.

Pinch of salt with that Geordie?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Radge, these fellas on here and the media were convinced that England would beat Australia after losing to Wales in the RWC so I wouldn't hold out much hope for any credibility here. Scotland by 10 + for me. You will boss them up front and they lack confidence right across the backline - when you get into them they will panic again. Its yours for the taking.

Ruby's back

At least we have the English voice of reason here in Geordie. Fair play mate you called it right for your team throughout the RWC. Northerners tend to call it as it is and your constructive criticism was bang on. Jones needs 12 months at least to develop his style but this Scotland at Murrayfield is a 50/50 all day for me. It should be a cracker.

Absolutely, but lets make them think that anyway.

RubyGuby wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Radge, these fellas on here and the media were convinced that England would beat Australia after losing to Wales in the RWC so I wouldn't hold out much hope for any credibility here. Scotland by 10 + for me. You will boss them up front and they lack confidence right across the backline - when you get into them they will panic again. Its yours for the taking.

Ruby's back

At least we have the English voice of reason here in Geordie. Fair play mate you called it right for your team throughout the RWC. Northerners tend to call it as it is and your constructive criticism was bang on. Jones needs 12 months at least to develop his style but this Scotland at Murrayfield is a 50/50 all day for me. It should be a cracker.

Im a falcons fan...I HAVE to be a realist

In fatc when It comes to rugby im somewhat of a pessimist at times.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You seem a pretty confident Scottish fan Fa. More judgements which seem based on international matches a fair while ago though.

I think Scotland should win yes.

a few reasons...

Scotland have a decent set piece and things like scrum prowess doesn't drop away automatically. England have Hartley back which is a good thing but Mako starting should be a worry to anyone.  Nel is one of the premier tightheads in the game so should fancy his chances against Mako.
Lineout both decent, a fair contest.

Backrow it looks like England have better carriers in Billy and Haskell but may be outworked on the floor.

Placekickers. Laidlaw is world class within the 40m line. Probably better than Farrell but Farrell has superior range. 10s. Ford is probably better running a backline but  England's backline doesn't look threatening with Farrell at 12. Everytime he has played there England don't seem to function as England don't have someone capable of attacking from 12.

It doesn't seem to me how England are outright favourites and given Scotland are at home they really should have the upper hand in a closely matched game. England do well when they have superior forwards. I don't see much difference in the backline. Without their forwards dominance, with this probably backline I think Scotland should fancy their chances. Should but that's on paper only.

Sarries (the best team in Europe) seem quite happy with Mako at TH, so I value their opinion.

And Eddie jones has said....Scotland are favorites.

When has Tom Youngs ever suffered with Leicester as he does with England? Club rugby is what it is.... club rugby.

When has he ever really suffered with England?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Absolutely, but lets make them think that anyway.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You seem a pretty confident Scottish fan Fa. More judgements which seem based on international matches a fair while ago though.

I think Scotland should win yes.

a few reasons...

Scotland have a decent set piece and things like scrum prowess doesn't drop away automatically. England have Hartley back which is a good thing but Mako starting should be a worry to anyone.  Nel is one of the premier tightheads in the game so should fancy his chances against Mako.
Lineout both decent, a fair contest.

Backrow it looks like England have better carriers in Billy and Haskell but may be outworked on the floor.

Placekickers. Laidlaw is world class within the 40m line. Probably better than Farrell but Farrell has superior range. 10s. Ford is probably better running a backline but  England's backline doesn't look threatening with Farrell at 12. Everytime he has played there England don't seem to function as England don't have someone capable of attacking from 12.

It doesn't seem to me how England are outright favourites and given Scotland are at home they really should have the upper hand in a closely matched game. England do well when they have superior forwards. I don't see much difference in the backline. Without their forwards dominance, with this probably backline I think Scotland should fancy their chances. Should but that's on paper only.

Sarries (the best team in Europe) seem quite happy with Mako at TH, so I value their opinion.

And Eddie jones has said....Scotland are favorites.

Has Mako Switched sides of the scrum? I hadnt noticed

No 7&1/2 wrote:When has he ever really suffered with England?

Tom youngs or Mako?

Either. Also is there any English player you do rate? Seem very down on us considering we've been consistently above average in the NH at least for the last 4 years or so.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Absolutely, but lets make them think that anyway.

My mams a weegie so the banter has already began...its all good fun

maestegmafia wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You seem a pretty confident Scottish fan Fa. More judgements which seem based on international matches a fair while ago though.

I think Scotland should win yes.

a few reasons...

Scotland have a decent set piece and things like scrum prowess doesn't drop away automatically. England have Hartley back which is a good thing but Mako starting should be a worry to anyone.  Nel is one of the premier tightheads in the game so should fancy his chances against Mako.
Lineout both decent, a fair contest.

Backrow it looks like England have better carriers in Billy and Haskell but may be outworked on the floor.

Placekickers. Laidlaw is world class within the 40m line. Probably better than Farrell but Farrell has superior range. 10s. Ford is probably better running a backline but  England's backline doesn't look threatening with Farrell at 12. Everytime he has played there England don't seem to function as England don't have someone capable of attacking from 12.

It doesn't seem to me how England are outright favourites and given Scotland are at home they really should have the upper hand in a closely matched game. England do well when they have superior forwards. I don't see much difference in the backline. Without their forwards dominance, with this probably backline I think Scotland should fancy their chances. Should but that's on paper only.

Sarries (the best team in Europe) seem quite happy with Mako at TH, so I value their opinion.

And Eddie jones has said....Scotland are favorites.

Has Mako Switched sides of the scrum? I hadnt noticed

Ah he's the front row himself...

No 7&1/2 wrote:Either. Also is there any English player you do rate? Seem very down on us considering we've been consistently above average in the NH at least for the last 4 years or so.

I'll field that question. Jamie George is superb.

Robshaw IMO one of the best loose forwards in the NH. Billy V is an extremely destructive carrier. Youngs is a great Scrum Half.

JJ is phenomenal as is Watson, Nowell and Brown.

Never really been that over awed with Launchberry though. Haskell is also very hot and cold and is definitely not a 7.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Either. Also is there any English player you do rate? Seem very down on us considering we've been consistently above average in the NH at least for the last 4 years or so.

Theres not 7.5, despite the fact he barely watches the prem.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Either. Also is there any English player you do rate? Seem very down on us considering we've been consistently above average in the NH at least for the last 4 years or so.

7.5....

come on... even the most ardent fan will admit that Youngs and Mako have a tendancy to get their a.ss handed to them come scrum time.

Anyhow, do I rate English players, course I do. England are full of class players but the blend hasn't been right for years. Tom Youngs if he was 3 inches taller would have made an awesome backrower/centre.... but thats the way life is. I think there would have been many of us here from the sounds of it who would have had a pro career if it hadn't been for "minor" things like that but that's the way it is.
The side doesn't look that much different from the past. Hartley undoubtedly improves the set piece... but not enough I think to be dominant. Maybe it will be enough, if Scotland win I doubt it would be greater than a score.

fa0019 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Either. Also is there any English player you do rate? Seem very down on us considering we've been consistently above average in the NH at least for the last 4 years or so.

7.5....

come on... even the most ardent fan will admit that Youngs and Mako have a tendancy to get their a.ss handed to them come scrum time.

Anyhow, do I rate English players, course I do. England are full of class players but the blend hasn't been right for years. Tom Youngs if he was 3 inches taller would have made an awesome backrower/centre.... but thats the way life is. I think there would have been many of us here from the sounds of it who would have had a pro career if it hadn't been for "minor" things like that but that's the way it is.
The side doesn't look that much different from the past. Hartley undoubtedly improves the set piece... but not enough I think to be dominant. Maybe it will be enough, if Scotland win I doubt it would be greater than a score.

Im not an ardent fan, but I still don't agree they're that bad.

However all shall come to light come next weekend when Mako faces Nel.

Jack Nowell is the most underrated player you have - Powerful, dynamic, strong in the tackle and has a great boot. He will play a lot more under Jones than he did with Lancaster who for some reason preferred that Johnny Sideways fella on the wing who is fast becoming the backs version of Haskell.

So you can't really name any then fa, which is fair enough as they don't normally suffer. Youngs has the France game from a few years ago thrown at him and Mako normally dates back to the Lions. As Geordie says you don't really watch much Aviva rugby and your comments on English players like Billy Vunipola do border on funny.

RubyGuby wrote:Jack Nowell is the most underrated player you have - Powerful, dynamic, strong in the tackle and has a great boot. He will play a lot more under Jones than he did with Lancaster who for some reason preferred that Johnny Sideways fella on the wing who is fast becoming the backs version of Haskell.

He was out for long spells with a knee injury Ruby, and in his fairness May did play very well.

RubyGuby wrote:Jack Nowell is the most underrated player you have - Powerful, dynamic, strong in the tackle and has a great boot. He will play a lot more under Jones than he did with Lancaster who for some reason preferred that Johnny Sideways fella on the wing who is fast becoming the backs version of Haskell.

Johnny Sideways? Are you living in 2013?

Ironically Nowell is again only just returning from injury. I hope he has fully regained his fitness...but he may well be quite short of match fitness.

I rate Nowell very highly though.

Mako is in great form for Sarries

ChequeredJersey wrote:Mako is in great form for Sarries

That's actually a difficult one to assess - Rhys Gill has always looked good for Sarries!!!! and has played over 130 games for them - When you're in such a competent side it can hide a myriad of flaws - Possibly the best example is Wigglesworth who is pure shoite but gets an arm chair ride each week. Seems like Jones worked that one out quickly

RubyGuby wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Mako is in great form for Sarries

That's actually a difficult one to assess - Rhys Gill has always looked good for Sarries!!!! and has played over  130 games for them - When you're in such a competent side it can hide a myriad of flaws - Possibly the best example is Wigglesworth who is pure shoite but gets an arm chair ride each week. Seems like Jones worked that one out quickly

Well Jones is an ex Saracens coach, Borthwick Captain and Gustard the main instigator of the "wolf pack malarkey" so they might be trying to make it the same type of system.

Ie Cover up Makos scrummaging (which actually has improved) but really utilise his carrying.

If borthwick can get the England forwards scrummaging as well as Sarries England should easily be too much for Scotland. I expect a big England bounce back.

I think 4-5 more Saffas in the England team alongside Nathan Hughes and you'll be competing for Grand Slams on a regular basis Geordie

englandglory4ever wrote:If borthwick can get the England forwards scrummaging as well as Sarries England should easily be too much for Scotland. I expect a big England bounce back.

I remember the last time you expected Gory

RubyGuby wrote:I think 4-5 more Saffas in the England team alongside Nathan Hughes and you'll be competing for Grand Slams on a regular basis Geordie

Makes up for all the Englishmen we've lost to the Welsh side I guess

RubyGuby wrote:I think 4-5 more Saffas in the England team alongside Nathan Hughes and you'll be competing for Grand Slams on a regular basis Geordie

Nah I'll stick to bringing through the English lads thanks.

And id rather not have Hughes either.

But really Ruby, a Wales fan shouldn't throw mud about a team using foreign players

BamBam wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:I think 4-5 more Saffas in the England team alongside Nathan Hughes and you'll be competing for Grand Slams on a regular basis Geordie

Makes up for all the Englishmen we've lost to the Welsh side I guess

englandglory4ever wrote:If borthwick can get the England forwards scrummaging as well as Sarries England should easily be too much for Scotland. I expect a big England bounce back.

Based on what evidence?

The mostly unchanged England pack got fairly hammered by Australia, whereas the Scottish scrum handled it very well and handled the breakdown even better.

Make no mistake the Edinburgh front row of Dickinson, Ford and Nel are experienced, familiar and very strong. Couple that with the Gray lads in the engine room I see nothing to suggest that the England scrum will be "easily too much for Scotland".

englandglory4ever wrote:If borthwick can get the England forwards scrummaging as well as Sarries England should easily be too much for Scotland. I expect a big England bounce back.

Really?
Scrums is one area ( perhaps the only one?)
where Scotland have a clear edge - remember they pushed Aus around - the Aus that pushed England around. England have other areas where they could well be too much for Scotland but scrums ain't one of them.

Gill really really hasn't looked good for Sarries for a while now. Ask beshocked who thinks he should be firmly behind Barrington in the pecking order.

As for Mako, the Sarries scrum has indeed been excellent this season. Now you could say that is due to a strong all-round pack, and that Mako is being carried to an extent, but let's look into more detail at the rest of the Sarries pack:

George. Well yes, terrific player, most England fans feel he's earned his chance to start (I among them, certainly), but is he that much more powerful than Hartley in the scrum? Probably not TBH.

Du Plessis. Solid enough, but surely a 35 year-old solid AP player can't suddenly be the reason the Sarries scrum is so good? Hill has been in great form for Saints this season, don't think England lose much there.

Kruis. Likely to start for England.

Itoje. Another who's been in fine form, but again, Launchbury - who will start for England - almost certainly adds as much to the scrum, I think Itoje's real strengths lie in other areas (disrupting the opposition line-out and rucks, carrying).

B. Vunipola. Will start.

Flankers probably don't add that much to the scrum either way.

So overall the rest of the England pack looks at least as strong as the rest of the Sarries one (minus Mako), in fact I'd say stronger. Scotland will likely field the Edinburgh front row, which has also been very strong this season, but I don't think there should be too many concerns there for either side TBH: I expect a fierce contest, but no clear advantage for either side.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
The mostly unchanged England pack got fairly hammered by Australia, whereas the Scottish scrum handled it very well and handled the breakdown even better.

Make no mistake the Edinburgh front row of Dickinson, Ford and Nel are experienced, familiar and very strong. Couple that with the Gray lads in the engine room I see nothing to suggest that the England scrum will be "easily too much for Scotland".

Don't agree with the bold bit. England are likely to change:
Mako in for Marler - Mako in better form than Marler was at the time, though how this translates to international level remains to be seen.
Hartley in for Youngs - Hartley a better scrummager.
Kruis in for Parling - Kruis adds more grunt IMO.
B. Vunipola in for Morgan. Billy probably slightly stronger, and Morgan was woefully short of form/fitness at the WC. That's four out of the six more important positions in the scrum which will see a change, so "mostly unchanged" is a bit wrong.

Agree with the rest of the post, as I stated in my previous post I expect the scrum to be a fierce contest, having watched a fair bit of Edinburgh this season, but not sure I can see either side gain a decisive upper hand. Breakdown is more of a concer for me, I could definitely see Scotland having an edge there unless England can smash the gainline.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:g.

Agree with the rest of the post, as I stated in my previous post I expect the scrum to be a fierce contest, having watched a fair bit of Edinburgh this season, but not sure I can see either side gain a decisive upper hand. .

Edinburgh have underpowered locks. Scotland will have the Gray brothers who must be around about the biggest strongest locks in world rugby.

Are they? My impression is always that they are tall but actually lack power, or at least the ability to use it, especially Richie

RubyGuby wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Mako is in great form for Sarries

That's actually a difficult one to assess - Rhys Gill has always looked good for Sarries!!!! and has played over  130 games for them - When you're in such a competent side it can hide a myriad of flaws - Possibly the best example is Wigglesworth who is pure shoite but gets an arm chair ride each week. Seems like Jones worked that one out quickly

Is Rhys Gill ever actually playing for Sarries? He's injured or third choice or banned for disgraceful spear tackles

ChequeredJersey wrote:Are they? My impression is always that they are tall but actually lack power, or at least the ability to use it, especially Richie

Yeah, his Brother is much better than him.

Saying that, I've only ever see Lawes hurt backs so...

Yeah, but I'm not that keen on Lawes starting

Jonny Gray is going to be a brilliant player .. Richie I'm very unconvinced on

Shame that Slater is out though, him and Launchbury would have been my choice at lock and that would match most 2nd rows for power

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:If borthwick can get the England forwards scrummaging as well as Sarries England should easily be too much for Scotland. I expect a big England bounce back.

Based on what evidence?

The mostly unchanged England pack got fairly hammered by Australia, whereas the Scottish scrum handled it very well and handled the breakdown even better.

Make no mistake the Edinburgh front row of Dickinson, Ford and Nel are experienced, familiar and very strong. Couple that with the Gray lads in the engine room I see nothing to suggest that the England scrum will be "easily too much for Scotland".

Aus got away with a lot vs England, fair enough, but it would be a mistake to count on that. Breakdown is interesting as we'll see what Jones does here but are Scotland suddenly that good?

Depends who Scotland pick

ChequeredJersey wrote:Are they? My impression is always that they are tall but actually lack power, or at least the ability to use it, especially Richie

Ritchie is dyspraxic which is why he looks all elbows and knees. Ickle Jonny is the better player but Ritchie is huge and strong. The two of them are much much more powerful than the edinburgh locks and significantly heavier than the likely england locks 2 1/2 - 3 1/2 stone depending which locks play for England.

It always makes me laugh that Ritch is is officially 6'9. Thats what he was at 18. He is bigger now as you carry on growing into your 20s especially if you are a giant ( yes he is officially a giant! )

If Scotland pick say Hardie, Barclay, Strauss, then the breakdown will be tough

Good luck on thinking that England will play like they did in the RWC. As for scrum performance, the only bad game even that England team had was the Australian game.

At the time England went into meltdown. Otherwise you'd have to say that either (as the Australians would of course say) England scrum tactics were finally found out, or Australia found some 'special' tactics of their own. Given the Australian scrum reputation I'd go with a bit of the latter plus England folding under pressure

In general the England players who are in the squad (and still standing) are on good form, a lot better than they were in the Autumn.

Oh Jonny May is a terrific wing, but we won't miss him that much given we have Nowell and Watson. With the Scottish injuries in the back they are going to have fun catching those guys

The Sarries pack are coached to scrummage extremely well. What they do is pack down and bind in sync to such an extent that almost all their backs are the same height and the unit becomes an as-one machine. Most other packs in the AP and Europe tend to be a bit push-me pull-me and nowhere near as synchronised. This is where Sarries get a significant edge on the others. If England can import that technique I expect them to over-power Scotland fairly easily. If not they won't. Either way, now Rowntree has gone I expect much more from the pack. I was convinced Rowntree was thick.

TJ & fa

Remember two years ago when we got nilled at home? I'm pretty sure most of us were extremely confident that was never ever going to happen.

We have a slim chance, but this is England. Who we have an utterly sh!te record against.

I agree Tattie. As I posted this could go either way. Scotland could push on from the WC, play to their potential and be very good or the injuries etc could disrupt them totally and we go back to being a large steaming plate of mince. England could play like the did in the WC or Jones could get them playing to their potential. I'd rather face them first than last tho. ~Catch them before they get cohesion
Scotland could win but I wouldn't bet on it.

lostinwales wrote:As for scrum performance, the only bad game even that England team had was the Australian game.

I have to disagree as we struggled in the scrums in several matches. Remember Fiji? England scrum on their own 5 m line after May just prevented Matawalu scoring a cracking try and pushed off their own ball and concede a penalty. That led to a cross field kick and the big unit scoring. Several scrums Fiji bossed England. Against France in the 2 warm up games we struggled in the scrums so the weakness was apparent for some time.

But to the Scotland game.

The areas that England need to improve on are:

1. Scrum

2. General forward play and gain line nastiness

3. Breakdown and turnovers

4. The midfield

To date it is obviously way too early to judge EJ in these areas as he has only had a few training sessions with them. And of course there is no magic wand so we cannot expect any significant improvement for this match. All we want is a win. Lancaster got that thanks to charge down Charlie. The players are largely the same and it is not as if we are missing a number of real world class players.

1. Scrum - Marler and Cole struggled in the RWC but they will be better for having Hartley and George between them instead of TY. Mako might get the nod, but again he was no great scrummager before so still to be convinced despite Sarries great form.

2. General forward play and gain line nastiness - there will be no seismic shift here as still the same players and too little time for EJs to make a difference.

3. Breakdown and turnovers - it might be a stroke of genius to have Robshaw at 6 as he could become world class in that position. The Brand is preferred for this match as EJ wants experience and clearly this is just a short term move, but he must have been reassured by Smith. Haskell will have to play on the edge as all true 7s do and it is 50/50 whether he plays well or gets a yellow card.  

4. The midfield - another stop gap move here with Farrell likely to start at 12. We are no closer to solving this area and we know what Farrell has to offer......won't let England down but does not excite me either.

Overall - a change in mindset to look forward to, but little change on the pitch. This conservative selection is hoping to sneak a close win by deploying limited tactics. I fully expect England trying to strangle a win without playing any rugby. Scotland by 7 points for me.