6N 2016: Scotland v England, 6 February

First topic message reminder :

    
SCOTLAND v ENGLAND
6 February 2016
KO: 16:50 GMT
Murrayfield, Edinburgh

Live on BBC, RTE, FR2, DMAX / ITV(H)

Referee: John Lacey (Ireland)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

133 Played 133
42 Won 73
18 Drawn 18
73 Lost 42
1,132 Points 1,547

B. Recent Form

14 March 2015
Twickenham, London
25 – 13 to England

8 February 2014
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
0 – 20 to England

2 February 2013
Twickenham, London
38 – 18 to England

4 February 2012
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
6 – 13 to England

1 October 2011
Eden Park, Auckland
16 – 12 to England

C. Teams

SCOTLAND

15. Stuart Hogg
14. Sean Maitland
13. Mark Bennett
12. Matt Scott
11. Tommy Seymour
10. Finn Russell
09. Greig Laidlaw (captain)

01. Alasdair Dickinson
02. Ross Ford
03. Willem Nel
04. Richie Gray
05. Jonny Gray
06. John Barclay
07. John Hardie
08. David Denton

16. Stuart McInally
17. Gordon Reid
18. Zander Fagerson
19. Tim Swinson
20. Blair Cowan
21. Sam Hidalgo-Clyne
22. Duncan Weir
23. Duncan Taylor

ENGLAND

15. Mike Brown
14. Anthony Watson
13. Jonathan Joseph
12. Owen Farrell
11. Jack Nowell
10. George Ford
09. Danny Care

01. Joe Marler
02. Dylan Hartley
03. Dan Cole
04. Joe Launchbury
05. George Kruis
06. Chris Robshaw
07. James Haskell
08. Billy Vunipola

16. Jamie George
17. Mako Vunipola
18. Paul Hill
19. Courtney Lawes
20. Jack Clifford
21. Ben Youngs
22. Alex Goode
23. Ollie Devoto

Fanster wrote:Where do you guys see Scotland going forward then? I don't think they have enough out wide to out manouvre England, and without Dunbar getting over the game line is up to Grays and Denton.

How do Scotland do enough damage to create try scoring opportunities?

Matt Scott is a bit of a brute himself. He also has quite a decent step although not the quickest of 12's you are likely to see he does have phenomenal acceleration.

Bennett will be key for Scotland. Scott should be able to find some space somewhere around Farrell's channel and with Hogg coming into the line potentially at first reciever from time to time Maitland and Seymour can offer other options in the middle.

The bulk of the go forward ball will come from the tight 5 and Denton. With the Grays jumping in tandem we might also have a decent shot at stealing some lineout ball. IMO we'll have to steal some lineout ball. Every time a rolling maul got set up against us in the RWC we were crushed and almost always shipped significant yardage or worse points in the form of tries or penalties or rumble over tries.

England's pack has got some really big units in there, the rolling maul would be my greatest fear from this undoubtedly well drilled England side.

Marler got some pelters in the RWC for some pretty poor performances however I expect the scrums to be a tight affair with no advantage to either side.

The fact we have Maitland and Seymour on the wings has cheered me up no end. The thought of Nowell, Brown and Watson sprinting past Lamont all day would have been dire.

Cumbrian wrote:From an English point of view it is sometimes surprising how quickly things can change.  Clifford, Devoto and Hill wouldn't have been seen as anything but distant potential this time last year.  I mean if you were to back to just before the last Six Nations and ask England fans if they though those three players (Hill in particular) would be anywhere near the match day squad within a year, I doubt many would have predicted it.

Hill I will give you. Devoto has been talked about a fair bit but Eastmond was getting the majority of the plaudits and game time.

With Clifford, well anyone who'd seen him play for Quins knew it was only a matter of time. I'm often overly optimistic about these things, but my most cynical rugby mate has been desperate to see him play in an England shirt since he first saw him in the JRWC final and 7s.

I think a fully fit and firing Bennett would be a good option, especially exposing Farrells outside shoulder and forcing Joseph to make rash decisions, however is he 100%? Does Scott posess the pace needed?

For me I think Farrell is key, he almost has to watch the 10 channell and 13 a touch, and with Hardie and Barclay peppering his inside shoulder, causeing Haskell to work really hard, there may be the opportunity to really tire the English Back row. Then attacking his outside shoulder, and alternating.

As someone mentioned, turnovers are going to be huge, especially early on, force England to committ more and more numbers and limit their carrying options, if they get rumbling around the fringes they'll be tough to stop.

I think out of hand will be important, but I see Russell as a weakness in this type of game.

Lets hope i'm wrong.

Poorfour wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:From an English point of view it is sometimes surprising how quickly things can change.  Clifford, Devoto and Hill wouldn't have been seen as anything but distant potential this time last year.  I mean if you were to back to just before the last Six Nations and ask England fans if they though those three players (Hill in particular) would be anywhere near the match day squad within a year, I doubt many would have predicted it.

Hill I will give you. Devoto has been talked about a fair bit but Eastmond was getting the majority of the plaudits and game time.

With Clifford, well anyone who'd seen him play for Quins knew it was only a matter of time. I'm often overly optimistic about these things, but my most cynical rugby mate has been desperate to see him play in an England shirt since he first saw him in the JRWC final and 7s.

I'm probably going to be the only guy on the planet who thinks Clifford is all potential but not sure if he can step up. He's still growing, and as he does that explosiveness he has will deteriorate, a bit like Marler when he first stepped up, he was a rampant prop who offered little on the international stage, he's had to work really hard to get where he is now, and Clifford may have to do the same.

The recent appointment of local home town hero and recent Springbok specialist breakdown coach Richie Gray (yes, there are two) is significant and I would think that he has been influential in getting Barclay back into the line up. Getting more steals coupled with Russell's fast rugby brain and ability to improvise (Seymour is a superb poacher) is a strategy that genuinely plays to our modest strengths.

To answer Fanster's question, I actually think that Scotland does have enough out wide - the problem is that none of the back 3 have been in particularly sparkling form lately so the question is not 'can they?' (the answer is 'yes'), but rather 'will they?'.

I just pray to god that we didn't rush Bennett back early. I don't remember a Scotland centre in my lifetime who could do this sort of stuff:

Poorfour wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:From an English point of view it is sometimes surprising how quickly things can change.  Clifford, Devoto and Hill wouldn't have been seen as anything but distant potential this time last year.  I mean if you were to back to just before the last Six Nations and ask England fans if they though those three players (Hill in particular) would be anywhere near the match day squad within a year, I doubt many would have predicted it.

Hill I will give you. Devoto has been talked about a fair bit but Eastmond was getting the majority of the plaudits and game time.

With Clifford, well anyone who'd seen him play for Quins knew it was only a matter of time. I'm often overly optimistic about these things, but my most cynical rugby mate has been desperate to see him play in an England shirt since he first saw him in the JRWC final and 7s.

I agree that it was a matter of time with Clifford and I'd been looking at him as a future England player for a good couple of years, it just seems to me to be such rapid progress. The next step is for him to win a place in the starting lineup, storm the Six nations, go to Australia in the summer and be a fixture for the AI's. Then I will be writing in the build up to the France game this time next year saying 'I can't believe how quickly Jack Clifford became a fixture in the team...!'

Devoto though was talked about, but never really seriously.

He is a fast little nipper

Wonder who'll take kicks for England?

Surely Farrell? Ford doesn't seem the type to throw his toys out if he isn't kicking, and Farrell is usually very consistent

Fanster wrote:I'm probably going to be the only guy on the planet who thinks Clifford is all potential but not sure if he can step up. He's still growing, and as he does that explosiveness he has will deteriorate, a bit like Marler when he first stepped up, he was a rampant prop who offered little on the international stage, he's had to work really hard to get where he is now, and Clifford may have to do the same.

I think that's just you! Conor O'Shea was asked about his prospects at a Quins member event last summer, and his answer - delivered without hesitation - was: "If he stays fit, he will play for England. If he stays fit, he will captain England." Eddie had had him in camp for 2 days before declaring him "a revelation" and comparing him to 60 cap All Black Rodney So'aiolo.

Marler's a different case - from what I can see, setpiece is considerably more demanding when you step up to International level, because there are fewer weak spots in an international pack than in any club pack whose name doesn't begin with T and end with oulon. He's had to sacrifice a bit of speed for strength and has less energy left for running around. I also think Lancaster and Rowntree asked him to focus more on defence than carrying. We might see something different under Eddie.

I don't think Clifford will necessarily lose much pace. If I were his coach, I'd be very careful about adding bulk because he's already powerful and I think trading his pace for more power would be daft. I also look at what Robshaw has done over the last couple of years, where he's slimmed down a bit and added some pace without losing much power.

Even if he were to lose some of his speed, the right kind of player can adapt. BOD lost a fair bit of his pace over the years, but never his vision or speed of thought. And the player he most reminds me of is one who also lost his speed (through injury) but still turned out OK. Back in the late 90s England had a kid who could play across the back row but eventually settled at 8, which is where Eddie sees Clifford long term. His name was Lawrence Dallaglio. But I think Clifford has more potential.

Confidence in the Scotland camp on here seems to have gone up following the team announcement, but I am still in the cautiously optimistic frame of mind. Not that I necessarily disagree on what is being said, just that we have all been here so many times before!

All this talk of getting the upper hand in the scrums and breakdown dominance all counts for naught over the 80 minutes of all out war that will happen on Saturday.  The game will be absolutely brutal and we will have to scrap and fight for absolutely everything.

The other thing to consider is, when is the last time Scotland dominated a team at the breakdown? Not for a very long time and it is something that we struggled with in the WC - I’d be surprised if the inclusion of Barclay on his own will turn us into an Australia-esque turnover machine as a team. It will certainly help though.

England are favourites – if Scotland win it will have been following one hell of a performance.

In other news, apparently Taylor is an injury doubt this weekend!

Maybe explains him benching?

RDW_Scotland wrote:Confidence in the Scotland camp on here seems to have gone up following the team announcement, but I am still in the cautiously optimistic frame of mind. Not that I necessarily disagree on what is being said, just that we have all been here so many times before!

All this talk of getting the upper hand in the scrums and breakdown dominance all counts for naught over the 80 minutes of all out war that will happen on Saturday.  The game will be absolutely brutal and we will have to scrap and fight for absolutely everything.

The other thing to consider is, when is the last time Scotland dominated a team at the breakdown? Not for a very long time and it is something that we struggled with in the WC - I’d be surprised if the inclusion of Barclay on his own will turn us into an Australia-esque turnover machine as a team. It will certainly help though.

England are favourites – if Scotland win it will have been following one hell of a performance.

Yes I agree England are favourites. However I'm not alone in thinking they could have picked a stronger team. Perhaps not physically stronger, but it does seem that our English friends are perhaps not as unanimous in Eddie Jones' squad as we are with Cotter's.

It's impossible for us to be too many fans and too much choice.

George Carlin wrote:The recent appointment of local home town hero and recent Springbok specialist breakdown coach Richie Gray (yes, there are two) is significant and I would think that he has been influential in getting Barclay back into the line up. Getting more steals coupled with Russell's fast rugby brain and ability to improvise (Seymour is a superb poacher) is a strategy that genuinely plays to our modest strengths.

To answer Fanster's question, I actually think that Scotland does have enough out wide - the problem is that none of the back 3 have been in particularly sparkling form lately so the question is not 'can they?' (the answer is 'yes'), but rather 'will they?'.

I just pray to god that we didn't rush Bennett back early. I don't remember a Scotland centre in my lifetime who could do this sort of stuff:

I'm sure its a bit of both; but I wonder how much of an impact Bennett's time being coached at Clermont has affected his game. He really is a master of running great lines, straightening up and going for it. He's obviously naturally gifted and has pace, but I can't help but think we need to ship all of our young backs out there for a bit of coaching in the magic arts

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's impossible for us to be too many fans and too much choice.

The one in bold I agree with, the first part?

You're probably right, we could rephrase it to more English people!

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im not happy with Lawes on the bench. He's a starter or not at all. Itoje is far more of an impact from the bench than him.

God the thought of Kruis being injured in the first quarter and us having to cope with Launchbury and Itoje in the lineout scares the crap out of me.

Lineout: Lawes >> Itoje
Scrum: Lawes > Itoje
Maul: Lawes = Itoje
Breakdown: Lawes > itoje
Tackling: Lawes = itoje
Ball Carrying: Lawes < Itoje
Speed: Lawes > Itoje


For me Itoje is hugely promising, but until he improves his lineout he is competing with Launchbury.

Londontiger how on earth can you say Lawes is better at the breakdown?

Itoje has made lots of turnovers this season.

http://outonthefullrugby.blogspot.co.uk/p/aviva-premiership-opta-stats.html

I would say it's this -

Lineout: Lawes > Itoje
Scrum: Lawes = Itoje
Maul: Lawes < Itoje
Breakdown: Lawes < itoje
Tackling: Lawes = itoje
Ball Carrying: Lawes < Itoje
Speed: Lawes = Itoje
Leadership:Lawes = Itoje
Discipline: Lawes = Itoje
Vision: Lawes < Itoje
Experience: Lawes > Itoje
Form: Lawes < Itoje

Thought I should add some more categories.

mikey_dragon wrote:.......
I'm merely posting my own point of view, which is that I believe each team (especially England) could do with a better 2nd row. Just because you disagree, or don't find it interesting does not make it cr@p. Grow up. And calm down, it's quite amusing to see you so angry over something so little.

So you are admitting that you are a troll?

I think the second rows in the tournament are a pretty high calibre bunch, albeit that there are a few (J Gray and Launchbury for example) who are in the early stages of development as international players.

Ireland could use a top notch player to partner Toner now that POC has his pipe and slippers handy, although I think a fully fit Iain Henderson is pretty awesome. I'm also not convinced that France have a high calibre partner for Maestri. But Wales (Charteris/AWJ), Scotland (Grayx2) and England (Launchbury/Lawes) have some pretty high class options, and obviously England with Kruis/Itoje/Slater/Kitchener et al have a few prospects as well to fall back on. I don't see it as a problem position for the Lions, for example (that's the mandatory Lions reference out of the way).

I think if we were to lose this game in any manner other than a tight affair, it would hurt more than normal.

In years gone by despite feeling optimistic and the dark horses tag, deep down we knew we weren't really up to much.  This year though, we have the strongest first xv we've had in a long time.  A decent bunch of coaches who have selected what is near enough our strongest team (which has happened far too infrequently in the past).  The hope is real and if we were to get torn a new one against England it would be a crushing blow.

For clarity I'm not saying we're necessarily going to win on Saturday because England cannot be underestimated, they are a good team with more depth than we could dream of, but we have a good chance against them.

My concern though, is there are going to be a number of players desperate to show that the poor performance at the WC was a blip and they are better than their early exit suggests.

Either way hoping it's going to be a good game, because matches between us tend to be dour affairs. The bonus is that the weather seems to be predicting a dry (albeit cold) day, so hopefully that leads to some open attacking rugby.

Scotland does look so much better than they have the last few years. The big problem is when other teams improve as well. Not long now til we find out.

Oh and huge credit to the scots supporters here. The internal, err, 'discussions', have been a great deal worse than anything between our respective supporters.

Austin Healey has Scotland down as pinching the win.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/12140884/Eddie-Jones-is-right-Scotland-are-favourites-to-beat-England-in-Six-Nations-2016.html

Having spent a bit of time pondering the selections I think it looks a close call in the front and back fives. In as much as both front fives look very good and you could make a decent case for either side. Mind you the one-eyed Celt in me says Nel and Dickinson have the edge and Gray the Younger is the best second row in the northern hemisphere. Similarly from 12-15 both teams could wreak utter havoc if they get enough ball.

However, the middle fives are noticeably different.

Care v Frodo : Care is much faster round the fringes ( but so am I, as is my octogenarian mother in law), Care has a better pass on him, Frodo kicks penalties, Frodo has grown into a real leader in the Al Kellock mould. Slight advantage England

Daddy's Boy I v Dancer On current form no contest: Dancer by a mile. Clear advantage Scotland. Mind you if Daddy's Boy II moves into 10 and Howard Devoto comes on It could change, especially if Meatball is on.

Vunipola v Clare Baldwin Dozer can make big yards if he has space to gallop canter into. Vunipola makes hard yards by smashing through people. Advantage England, mainly due to Dozer's habit of coughing up the ball in contact.

(6X2) v (7X2) If Scotland move the ball away from the contact area quickly Barclay and Hardie are both excellent footballers : if England keep smashing it up the fringes Robshaw and Haskell are bigger and heavier. If Scotland get quick/turnovers they can run England's pack ragged. If England keep hold of the ball they can pound Scotland into submission. No idea how this will pan out.

I wouldn't bet a penny on this game. It's anyone's guess; so England by 23.

Hoonercat wrote:Austin Healey has Scotland down as pinching the win.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/12140884/Eddie-Jones-is-right-Scotland-are-favourites-to-beat-England-in-Six-Nations-2016.html

##

We are doomed

Forget what's on paper it'll b on the day and whatever team handles the pressure. For those casting doom on the Scots they have a much better back line than Wales had in the last 30 minutes at Twickenham a few months ago and we know what happened there. It's one of the most difficult games to predict. England look strong across the park as do Scotland and for all that has been said about expansive rugby I don't think this one will be for the purists . Expect a lot of kicking and some bone crushing tackles. Discipline will be key but I'm expecting a rash of yellows with all the pressure. Can't wait

Wind and rain dictate an appropriate game plan. Expect keeping the ball tight and lots of kicking for territory. Goal kicking will be the difference and in bad conditions will be a bit of a lottery. It all stacks up for a very close game. But sport can upset the applecart so who knows. Had it been forecast for good weather I had England to win. Not so sure now.

What is the forcast for this week end any one know?

englandglory4ever wrote:Wind and rain dictate an appropriate game plan. Expect keeping the ball tight and lots of kicking for territory. Goal kicking will be the difference and in bad conditions will be a bit of a lottery. It all stacks up for a very close game. But sport can upset the applecart so who knows. Had it been forecast for good weather I had England to win. Not so sure now.

I don't see why you think dry conditions suit that monstrous pack England have?

Dry conditions will allow our mobile pack to beat the likes of Robshaw and haskell to every breakdown and starve you guys of possession.

I'll be begging for a clear day!

Forecast says I'll get my wish, however it will be windy.

jimbopip wrote:Having spent a bit of time pondering the selections I think it looks a close call in the front and back fives. In as much as both front fives look very good and you could make a decent case for either side. Mind you the one-eyed Celt in me says Nel and Dickinson have the edge and Gray the Younger is the best second row in the northern hemisphere. Similarly from 12-15 both teams could wreak utter havoc if they get enough ball.

However, the middle fives are noticeably different.

Care v Frodo : Care is much faster round the fringes ( but so am I, as is my octogenarian mother in law), Care has a better pass on him, Frodo kicks penalties, Frodo has grown into a real leader in the Al Kellock mould. Slight advantage England

Daddy's Boy I v Dancer On current form no contest: Dancer by a mile. Clear advantage Scotland. Mind you if Daddy's Boy II moves into 10 and Howard Devoto comes on It could change, especially if Meatball is on.

Vunipola v Clare Baldwin Dozer can make big yards if he has space to gallop canter into. Vunipola makes hard yards by smashing through people. Advantage England, mainly due to Dozer's habit of coughing up the ball in contact.

(6X2) v (7X2) If Scotland move the ball away from the contact area quickly Barclay and Hardie are both excellent footballers : if England keep smashing it up the fringes Robshaw and Haskell are bigger and heavier. If Scotland get quick/turnovers they can run England's pack ragged. If England keep hold of the ball they can pound Scotland into submission. No idea how this will pan out.

I wouldn't bet a penny on this game. It's anyone's guess; so England by 23.

I'm not sure what Russell you guys are watching, but i've seen him in his last 2/3 games and the only word to describe him was distinctely average. Ford on the other hand looks sharp even if he isn't playing in a succesfull team. Russell is a worry IMO

Russell has had a dip in form and is always a bit mercurial. However He is at least Fords equal at getting the backs moving and miles quicker than Farrell. He needs Farrells consistency tho

TJ wrote:Russell has had a dip in form and is always a bit mercurial.  However He is at least Fords equal at getting the backs moving and miles quicker than Farrell.  He needs Farrells consistency tho

I get that Russell is the best ball playing 10/back you guys have had for a while, but is he Fords equal? I think Ford has that little more about him, that said I'd have Farrell above both, from my 10 I want consistency first and foremost.

We will see on Saturday - He certainly is not that consistent but some of what he does is breathtaking and far better than I have seen Ford or Farrell do. However he also makes more mistakes. If you want consistency Farrells your man. If you want a dash of brilliance and are prepared to accept mistakes then its Russell. He can do things neither Ford or Farrell can - he will create more scoring chances but he will also give away more.

TJ wrote:We will see on Saturday - He certainly is not that consistent but some of what he does is breathtaking and far better than I have seen Ford or Farrell do.  However he also makes more mistakes.  If you want consistency Farrells your man.  If you want a dash of brilliance and are prepared to accept mistakes then its Russell.  He can do things neither Ford or Farrell can - he will create more scoring chances but he will also give away more.

I'd prefer both, outside of Dan Carter in his prime though...

I get what your saying, he does have that element to him, I'm just not sure his all round game is up to where i'd want an international fly half to be, if I had ambitions of winning championships.

He will get better yet - very young and inexperienced

TJ wrote:He will get better yet - very young and inexperienced

True, and I do like him. It's a shame he hasn't played behind a world class 10 to help bring him on a bit, its been an area of weakness over the years.

He does have Townsend as a coach - the last decent 10 we had!

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:Wind and rain dictate an appropriate game plan. Expect keeping the ball tight and lots of kicking for territory. Goal kicking will be the difference and in bad conditions will be a bit of a lottery. It all stacks up for a very close game. But sport can upset the applecart so who knows. Had it been forecast for good weather I had England to win. Not so sure now.

I don't see why you think dry conditions suit that monstrous pack England have?

Dry conditions will allow our mobile pack to beat the likes of Robshaw and haskell to every breakdown and starve you guys of possession.

I'll be begging for a clear day!

Forecast says I'll get my wish, however it will be windy.

I think we (English) have bad memories of Edinburgh storms. Can't remember exactly the year but I think Dayglo may have been captain, and Scots weather and Scots grit blew England out of it.

jimbopip wrote:...
Vunipola v Clare Baldwin Dozer can make big yards if he has space to gallop canter into. Vunipola makes hard yards by smashing through people. Advantage England, mainly due to Dozer's habit of coughing up the ball in contact.
...
I wouldn't bet a penny on this game. It's anyone's guess; so England by 23.

Lets face it that is the only time he actually will let go of the ball..

TJ wrote:He does have Townsend as a coach - the last decent 10 we had!

I rate Finn very highly. But he hasn't been in his best form this season

TJ wrote:He does have Townsend as a coach - the last decent 10 we had!

That'll stop him being mercurial and inconsistent

Riskysports wrote:

Hoonercat wrote:Austin Healey has Scotland down as pinching the win.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/12140884/Eddie-Jones-is-right-Scotland-are-favourites-to-beat-England-in-Six-Nations-2016.html

##

We are doomed

Yep - that's the nail in the coffin. A pundit with truly dreadful judgement.

The Women and Under 20s games tonight are being streamed by the SRU and RFU

SRU link here

http://www.scottishrugby.org/live

Any takers for women's rugby on here? I've watched highlights before and been impressed but with such limited opportunities to watch sport of TV these days I just can't get excited about it.

Historically Scotland tend to get thumped as well!

The Scotland woman's team is waaaaay behind the rest - things are improving but there is a long way to go.

A lot of the England women are full time pros.

I've played against the Scotland woman's team in training once - some of them were rubbish, but some of them hit hard!

I think when it comes to the breakdown, we have to consider the respective role of a 6 and a 7.

Everyone talks about your 7 being the turnover king, and that's all well and good. But I don't think adding Clifford or Kvesic would help with our ball retention much. Having Robshaw and Haskell on the field to clear out Scotland's twin jacklers might be an advantage to us, although I don't see us turning over too much of Scotland's ball. So when people say "Scotland have an advantage at the breakdown", I think we need to be a little more specific in what the advantage is.

I guess England's tactic is to therefore win the territory game and play in the right areas. Force errors or penalties and either try to use brute force up front, strike-moves out wide or Farrell's boot to put points on the board. However, I don't think England will be looking for numerous phases of play off the 10.

Not sure how either of these teams would react to going a couple of scores down either, so it will be interesting to see who starts more strongly. Both benches have a bit of an unknown quantity to them as well, so there's a lot we'll need answered.

robbo277 wrote:I think when it comes to the breakdown, we have to consider the respective role of a 6 and a 7.

Everyone talks about your 7 being the turnover king, and that's all well and good. But I don't think adding Clifford or Kvesic would help with our ball retention much. Having Robshaw and Haskell on the field to clear out Scotland's twin jacklers might be an advantage to us, although I don't see us turning over too much of Scotland's ball. So when people say "Scotland have an advantage at the breakdown", I think we need to be a little more specific in what the advantage is.

I guess England's tactic is to therefore win the territory game and play in the right areas. Force errors or penalties and either try to use brute force up front, strike-moves out wide or Farrell's boot to put points on the board. However, I don't think England will be looking for numerous phases of play off the 10.

Not sure how either of these teams would react to going a couple of scores down either, so it will be interesting to see who starts more strongly. Both benches have a bit of an unknown quantity to them as well, so there's a lot we'll need answered.

Probably in terms of the uncapped props, however England's bench is significantly stronger IMO. With the exception of Dunky Taylor.

RDW_Scotland wrote:The Scotland woman's team is waaaaay behind the rest - things are improving but there is a long way to go.

A lot of the England women are full time pros.

I've played against the Scotland woman's team in training once - some of them were rubbish, but some of them hit hard!

I dont think that any of the England Womens 15s are professional.
As I understand it its only 7s players that have professional contracts. The 15s squads are all amature.

propdavid_london wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:The Scotland woman's team is waaaaay behind the rest - things are improving but there is a long way to go.

A lot of the England women are full time pros.

I've played against the Scotland woman's team in training once - some of them were rubbish, but some of them hit hard!

I dont think that any of the England Womens 15s are professional.  
As I understand it its only 7s players that have professional contracts.  The 15s squads are all amature.

From memory, the RFU have given professional contracts to around 22 women players - that covers 7s and 15s, and many of the professionals are contracted to play both. However, this year those that do play 7s are away preparing for the Olympics, so the 15s have more amateurs than they would in a non-Olympic year.

We say we have the advantage at the breakdown - we won't really know until the game actually starts, like many things. On paper maybe we have an advantage in defensive rucks (turnovers etc) - but in practice we may be utterly dreadful, look at our defense in the world cup for example.

Also we seem to have forgotten how dreadful our kickoff receives have been for the last season - those are where half the points have been lost for us, we can have a brilliant set of forwards but it won't mean s**t if we can't receive a kickoff.

For me it comes down to what difference (if any) Richie Gray Sr has made to the defensive coaching set-up. I think if he has given some useful pointers we may see a slight improvement. If we can be as aggressive at the breakdown as we were against Australia it'll be tight. Play like we did against Samoa and it'll be a drubbing.

I am, however, cautiously optimistic. I think fresh legs in the form of John Barclay and Fagerson coming off the bench for a debut means we'll put up a good fight at the very least. I hope that Mark Bennett survives the match - that'd be a truly devastating loss, although I'm surprised Taylor isn't starting anyway. I still stand by my original prediction - Scotland 20-23 England. I just hope I'm wrong!