Ulster 2015/2016 Part 2

by **Notch** Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:12 pm

First topic message reminder :

Continue your discussion of all things Ulster here.

by clivemcl Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:08 pm

I'm waiting to hear all the negative posters tell us about Oldings poor positioning, missed tackles, poor kicking, poor decision making and how his versatility is overstated...

I mean if we want to be fair and honest, we need to criticise the golden boy today too.

by Redman Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:09 pm

JmD wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I actually thought that Paul Marshall put in a decent shift today...

The hospital pass to Stockdale when he was up against 3 defenders, dropping the ball in their 22 when we had the overlap, the nonsensical chip kick that got charged down. Yes he made that one break, but it's not enough when he can't get the basics right.

Let's not forgot that in the 2nd half he tried to run it on his 5 metre line, got snagged. Bailed out by his support to somehow not concede a penalty then gets up and kicks for a territory gain of about 8 metres. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

by eirebilly Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:12 pm

Very gracious in defeat towards the way Scarlet's played the game there Notch... I believe they deserve some credit, it wasn't simply Ulster gifting the game to them...

On the positives for Ulster, I thought that Gilroy, Marshall, Olding and Jackson all played very well and I do believe that they are good options for the Irish squad given the quality that they will be surrounded by.

by **Notch** Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:13 pm

clivemcl wrote:I'm waiting to hear all the negative posters tell us about Oldings poor positioning, missed tackles, poor kicking, poor decision making and how his versatility is overstated...

I mean if we want to be fair and honest, we need to criticise the golden boy today too.

He needs to do better. As for versatility, if we could leave him to focus on one position that would help, just as it would help if that position was 12- hard to criticise his selection there given Payne, Kudik, Nelson, Scholes, Bowe and Trimble are all unavailable

I've never seen him as a fullback. There were a few occasions he did scramble well because Cave and Gilroy both had poor games in defence and were really exposed time and time again. But I don't think there is one Ulster player who can emerge with credit from that game.

In a sense I'm glad we lost, because we need a kick up the arse and a win would have been underserved. My question is how many days like this do we need to have- we've been having them for years.

by eirebilly Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:14 pm

Redman wrote:
JmD wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I actually thought that Paul Marshall put in a decent shift today...

The hospital pass to Stockdale when he was up against 3 defenders, dropping the ball in their 22 when we had the overlap, the nonsensical chip kick that got charged down. Yes he made that one break, but it's not enough when he can't get the basics right.

Let's not forgot that in the 2nd half he tried to run it on his 5 metre line, got snagged. Bailed out by his support to somehow not concede a penalty then gets up and kicks for a territory gain of about 8 metres. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

A lot of players were guilty of making mistakes in that game and I don't think that Paul Marshal was that bad, actually thought he had a solid game.

by geoff999rugby Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:14 pm

eirebilly wrote:I actually thought that Paul Marshall put in a decent shift today...

Paul Marshall was a complete and utter joke - truly appalling

by geoff999rugby Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:17 pm

clivemcl wrote:For those who already have or may go on to dis Paul Marshall, the truth is, his mistakes tonight did not (directly) lead to us conceding, however his moments of magic where integral to us still being in the game in the last quarter.

The blame for the game lays at many people's doors before it comes to him. I actually admire how he never goes into his shell despite being aware of the severe criticism.

Simply untrue his poor decision making were key to putting us on the back foot for both the first two Scarlets tries
He also butched tries for us by being so slow at the breakdown
Giving it a go is to be admired - lacking judgement is not

by wayne Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:19 pm

Notch wrote: Munster did it, Scarlets did it- these teams aren't even the top tier sides like Glasgow, Ospreys or Leinster who will be the real dangers in the playoffs.

Thanks for that Notch, but I don't expect us to be in that exalted position this season, we'll be lucky to get in the RCC this season

by Redman Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:19 pm

eirebilly wrote:
Redman wrote:
JmD wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I actually thought that Paul Marshall put in a decent shift today...

The hospital pass to Stockdale when he was up against 3 defenders, dropping the ball in their 22 when we had the overlap, the nonsensical chip kick that got charged down. Yes he made that one break, but it's not enough when he can't get the basics right.

Let's not forgot that in the 2nd half he tried to run it on his 5 metre line, got snagged. Bailed out by his support to somehow not concede a penalty then gets up and kicks for a territory gain of about 8 metres. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

A lot of players were guilty of making mistakes in that game and I don't think that Paul Marshal was that bad, actually thought he had a solid game.

That's true RE: team mistakes. Almost all of them experienced players who should have done better. I thought the young lads like Andrew and Murphy actually did well considering.

by geoff999rugby Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:20 pm

Notch wrote:Lot of Ulster fans been saying we should have more players in the Ireland XV. After watching that it's hard to agree. That was so much worse than any Ireland display in recent memory. Ireland have played some awful rugby in the past few years, but I've never seen them come off the pitch and thought they didn't put the effort in.

.

Todays match doesn't alter that

Only Jackson, L Marshall and Gilroy currently in contention of those that started.
None of them played badly and they were not the reason we lost

by **Notch** Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:20 pm

eirebilly wrote:Very gracious in defeat towards the way Scarlet's played the game there Notch... I believe they deserve some credit, it wasn't simply Ulster gifting the game to them...

I give Scarlets credit, but I want to win more I want to be a good sportsman. Does that reflect well on me as a person? It probably really, really doesn't. It's probably something I need to work on. Thats why I can't play competitive sports myself. Its not just my lack of talent, it's my over-competitiveness. I do yoga instead. Thats helps me keep it in check. But God, if you can't win at least make sure the other team is coming off limping. At least make sure there are some very sore bodies. I feel like Scarlets had that mentality today. When we got down there, it didn't matter if they had to give away a penalty or bring a guy down with a high tackle; they would do whatever it took. I applaud them for that. Honestly; that is what this Ulster team lacks.

I know this team can win trophies. I try to measure them against what they are capable of not where I want Ulster to be. Less talented sides than this have won trophies. Paul O'Connell always said at Munster; 'Let's be the best at the things that don't require talent.' Maybe we should offer him a spot on the coaching panel.

by geoff999rugby Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:21 pm

clivemcl wrote:I'm waiting to hear all the negative posters tell us about Oldings poor positioning, missed tackles, poor kicking, poor decision making and how his versatility is overstated...

I mean if we want to be fair and honest, we need to criticise the golden boy today too.

Utter Rubbish
Couple of times he bailed P Marshall out of a big hole

by geoff999rugby Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:24 pm

We lost because Andrew and Browne apart our front five failed to deliver.
The backrow was second best
We carried P. Marshall and Cave who were both awful
We seem to have set pastterns but no off the cuff inspiration

As an aside that is one of the worst refereeing performances I have ever seen - I also do not blame it for our defeat Scarlets deserved to win

by eirebilly Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:28 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:We lost because Andrew and Browne apart our front five failed to deliver.
The backrow was second best
We carried P. Marshall and Cave who were both awful
We seem to have set pastterns but no off the cuff inspiration

As an aside that is one of the worst refereeing performances I have ever seen - I also do not blame it for our defeat Scarlets deserved to win

I thought that Luke Marshall, Olding and Gilroy showed a lot of off the cuff inspiration. All three have amazingly quick feet, are strong and break the gain line consistently.

With them, I thought that Jackson also had a very controlling game at 10. I simply do not see (given Ireland's injury woes) why they aren't more involved in the Irish team. This game to me proved to me that they have the quality rather than prove to me that they don't deserve to be in the Irish setup...

by **Notch** Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:30 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
Notch wrote:Lot of Ulster fans been saying we should have more players in the Ireland XV. After watching that it's hard to agree. That was so much worse than any Ireland display in recent memory. Ireland have played some awful rugby in the past few years, but I've never seen them come off the pitch and thought they didn't put the effort in.

.

Todays match doesn't alter that

Only Jackson, L Marshall and Gilroy currently in contention of those that started.
None of them played badly and they were not the reason we lost

Luke Marshall actually had a very good game, you're right. Gilroy was exposed down his wing five or six times. Sublime finish for his try and always dangerous with the ball but that his worst game in defence for a long time; not aided by Cave who was really poor for a player of his experience. Not having confidence in the man inside you makes it infinitely harder. Jackson I still feel overplays it in certain situations and needs to be more pragmatic. Like his miss pass which went forward or a few inside balls when it wasn't on. I feel that he has all these things in his repertoire but he still needs to refine his decision making. The drop goal was a good sign of that, but he needs to show that ruthlessness more often. Mind you his kicking from hand is still hit and miss for me; sometimes he nails it other times he just outs it down the throat of the opposition winger. I would still bring Jackson onto the bench for Ireland mind you, because I don't rate Madigan.

The pack... oh jeez where do you even start. Jacob Stockdale is looking good on the wing, think he's going to be a very good player.

I know I can over-react- badly over-react- when Ulster play poorly. I know I can be over-critical. But I'm not going to wake up tomorrow and say 'That wasn't so bad'. Yeah there are positives, but the lack of ruthlessness in this team doesn't show any sign of going away.

by Redman Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:32 pm

clivemcl wrote:I'm waiting to hear all the negative posters tell us about Oldings poor positioning, missed tackles, poor kicking, poor decision making and how his versatility is overstated...

I mean if we want to be fair and honest, we need to criticise the golden boy today too.

Something very strange happened in the first half where around 20 mins he was defending in the line for a long time. I believe it was Paul Marshall slotting into 15 for most of that period. Not sure if that's because Olding forgot he was playing fullback or they were trying shield Marshall from contact. Either way Scarlets didn't pick up on it.

Did anyone else see that? Could they explain?

by 2ndtimeround Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:05 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:We lost because Andrew and Browne apart our front five failed to deliver.
The backrow was second best
We carried P. Marshall and Cave who were both awful
We seem to have set pastterns but no off the cuff inspiration

As an aside that is one of the worst refereeing performances I have ever seen - I also do not blame it for our defeat Scarlets deserved to win

Interesting, as a Scarlet fan I thought that as one of Davies's better performances, he allowed the game to flow much better than usual, and as for the call of the ball hitting the corner flag and therefore it was not a scrum all the way back, I'm pretty sure that was the linesmans call hence he stood there explaining to the Ulster players why it was not classed as out on the full. admittedly it was a surprise to me as I thought the flag no longer constituted part of the touch line.
Agreed though it was not the officials were the game was won and lost, that was the back row and the centres. I didn't see who got MOM but Parkes must of been close.

by PenfroPete Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:10 pm

Regan King was "Seren y gem"

by 2ndtimeround Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:17 pm

PenfroPete wrote:Regan King was "Seren y gem"

Thanks.

by carpet baboon Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:19 pm

Not much of a plus but Murphy looked good when he came on.
I thought the ref was alright to be honest, Scarlets were brilliant in attack and did a lot of the basics well. Couldn't complain if they had won by more.
Blooming annoying though, why kick for the corner when 20 mins left and only 4 points down? Just dosent make sense to me

by geoff999rugby Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:20 pm

Notch wrote: . Gilroy was exposed down his wing five or six times.

Don't agree - he was faced with multiple player overlaps - that is not the fault of a single player but problems with the team defence

Blame the coaches - something went seriously pear shaped in our analysis of Scarlets

by carpet baboon Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:20 pm

And yes king was the king today....... See what I did there.

by geoff999rugby Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:21 pm

eirebilly wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:We lost because Andrew and Browne apart our front five failed to deliver.
The backrow was second best
We carried P. Marshall and Cave who were both awful
We seem to have set pastterns but no off the cuff inspiration

As an aside that is one of the worst refereeing performances I have ever seen - I also do not blame it for our defeat Scarlets deserved to win

I thought that Luke Marshall, Olding and Gilroy showed a lot of off the cuff inspiration. All three have amazingly quick feet, are strong and break the gain line consistently.

With them, I thought that Jackson also had a very controlling game at 10. I simply do not see (given Ireland's injury woes) why they aren't more involved in the Irish team. This game to me proved to me that they have the quality rather than prove to me that they don't deserve to be in the Irish setup...

I see your point but the off cuff inspiration was individual not collective and thereby hangs a tail

by geoff999rugby Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:23 pm

In truth this result has been coming for sometime
We were terrible against Treviso, Dragons and a weakened Warriors
We just got away with it then because of the poor quality opposition

This time we played a decent side

by Rory_Gallagher Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:26 pm

I didn't think Gilroy was to blame for the defensive errors today. We defended so narrow that he was dragged inside for most of the game and had to cover for his inside men. He missed one tackle. Cave missed five.

by geoff999rugby Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:15 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I didn't think Gilroy was to blame for the defensive errors today. We defended so narrow that he was dragged inside for most of the game and had to cover for his inside men. He missed one tackle. Cave missed five.

Spot on Rory - being blamed for other peoples deficiencies.

Case of adding 2+2 = 5

Perception that Gilroy is weak in defence + tries scored down his channel = Gilroy to blame (WRONG!)

by **Notch** Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:16 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I didn't think Gilroy was to blame for the defensive errors today. We defended so narrow that he was dragged inside for most of the game and had to cover for his inside men. He missed one tackle. Cave missed five.

Cave really was poor- Gilroy at one point went for the same man as Cave and I thought that was a really terrible read. But thats trust isn't it. If you lose trust in the man inside you, you're going to make those kinds of calls. Could be too harsh on Gilroy because the 13 is really the key link in defence and... I've never seen Cave play as badly as he did today.

You have to say that Gilroys finish was top class for the try. He got a bit of luck with the bounce but that was really nicely taken. What I really want to see is the Gilroy that played in the 2013 Six Nations, or whatever the last one Kidney coached in was. I remember very clearly he defended his channel very aggressively, making good reads to come out of the line and cut down players with big tackles. Different team, different defensive system but there was a certainty about his decision making and an aggression in his tackling that actually none of the Ulster players with the exception of Luke Marshall showed anywhere near enough of today. That was a Less Kiss coached defence too. I thought Stockdale was the more solid of the two wings, although they didn't attack down his channel anywhere near as frequently.

Again, you know... I think I'm harder on Ulster players than guys from provinces because, in a strange way, I want them to succeed much more. Perhaps I'm too hard on them. I know what Gilroy is capable of in defence and attack. Has he really kicked on from when he broke into the Ireland team? He could be a star.

by The Great Aukster Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:14 pm

Well done to the Scarlets, they kept their heads when Ulster lost theirs.

Cave missed five tackles today and every one led to points for the Scarlets. That has to be his worst game in a white shirt, and removes any doubt as to the need for Ulster to be keeping all the Centres they possibly can - Arnold looked considerably better when he came on but it was way too late.
Jackson isn't immune from criticism either. Turning down six points in a tight game is stupid especially when down to 14 men and more than a quarter to go. He takes the drop with the fallback penalty to come but turns it down despite the inevitable turnover looming. Seriously Paddy!
Gilroy and Luke Marshall are the only two of the backs to emerge with any credit and as for Joe Barakat you have to wonder who he is and what he's doing?

by clivemcl Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:38 pm

Like everyone has said...this loss was coming. And the worrying thing is, after three below par games, we didn't see it rectified by our coaching setup who had previously been giving us such high hopes!

The competition for places, and wanting to prove yourself I guess can work two ways. I feel there were guys out there tonight too focused on catching people's eyes rather than working as a collective unit.

Second...I feel partly Scarlets had a good defensive game, and Ulster are just a little too ineffective at punching holes without some of currently absent players.

I'd like to clarify my earlier comments. Paul Marshall was poor. Just like most of the team. It's just my opinion that he out not to be singled out necessarily. The chip... Well... Poorly executed... But if that had come of...

It's moments like that that change games. Just like his earlier break. We were failing to breach them with our structured rehearsed moves... I can't blame Marshall for having a go. He just needs to do better in terms of implementation and skill.

I think tonight Luke again put his hand up for a starting centre shirt. You just can't keep that lad down, and it's a joy to see.

In hindsight, the pack was considerably weakened and we were always going to struggle.

It may be 4 bad performances... But at least we can say Scarlets played the best against us. And we only lost by a point.

I wouldn't say it's doom and gloom, but I'd be hoping for much improvement!

by **Notch** Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:45 pm

In many ways I could deal better with doom and gloom. I used to really enjoy going to Ravenhill when Ulster were rubbing along the bottom of the table and not winning anything- just went with the attitude that I wanted to see some good rugby played, even if it was in fits and starts. And I enjoyed it.

Now Ulster have some cash, a brand new stadium and are announcing new signings- but going to watch Ulster play doesn't bring me the same happiness it used to. I just hope that these players do not retire with nothing to show for it but regrets. I really want them to get over that hurdle. The last five years have felt like a very, very talented team finding new ways to shoot themselves in the foot. It's getting very painful to watch.

by marty2086 Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:00 am

The Great Aukster wrote:Cave missed five tackles today and every one led to points for the Scarlets.

It seems to be a regular occurrence with Cave these days that he is missing tackles, if things keep going the way they are he'll be asking iHumph for tips on doing it right

by geoff999rugby Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:04 am

Someone else on another board posted this and it is spot on

Brutal stuff, narrow defence easy to get around, poor decision making, static single runners, no attacking the fringes, throw it to L Marshall, Gilroy or Olding and hope for some magic. It's been coming the last few weeks.

by Kingshu Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:16 am

In reality I don't think we are good enough for a top 4 place currently. Just a look at our record against the other big teams in Europe.

Saracens home and away, beat Toulouse home and away

and more importently in the league v other teams expected to make the top 4

Ospreys won
Scarlets lost
Munster lost
Leinster lost
Connacht won
Munster lost
Glasgow won
Scarlets lost

3 wins lost 5

Losing the double against Munster and Scarlets.

If we want to win the League we need to be able to beat the other top teams,

by Guest Mon Feb 22, 2016 2:06 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Someone else on another board posted this and it is spot on

Brutal stuff, narrow defence easy to get around, poor decision making, static single runners, no attacking the fringes, throw it to L Marshall, Gilroy or Olding and hope for some magic. It's been coming the last few weeks.

Just about right, although I would add lack of heart from the forwards. This was a big game, an important game to win, and in front of the home crowd, yet the will to win just didn't seem to be there. Our away form has been poor until recently, were it looked like we had turned a corner, now it's our home form that is poor, and I'm not confident our away form will be any better.

Why Jackson didn't go for the points, instead of kicking to the corners, I don't know, especially when he is kicking superbly.

On a another note, I see Gilroy has been called into the Ireland squad. Delighted for him, if it means he actually gets a game, but also concerned about what it means for Ulster.

by geoff999rugby Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:31 pm

It will probably just mean he watches the Ireland game and doesn't play for Ulster
Both Earls and Zebo will have to be injured for him to have any chance

Arnold will probably start on the wing

by geoff999rugby Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:42 pm

Some thoughts going into next year

I think we have a bunch of stalwarts who are in decline - Henry, Wilson, Tuohy, Bowe (Best and Trimble are the exceptions)
Our backrow continues to be short of class - we will be so dependant on Coetzee and Henderson (if he plays there)
Half back is a position that if Pienaer and Jackson don't play we are screwed

We have two props who really have to deliver for us to have any hope - Herbst and Ah You (needs to get fit)
Some forwards, sadly, are just short of the class required - Warwick (not given on him yet though), Black, Lutton, Ross and sad to say Diack (great endeavour but just doesn't quite have it)

Good news we have some youngsters who have done well - McCall, Andrew, AOC, Stockdale, Nelson, Scholes (but he may be leaving)
We need some of those young forward to make a mark in the second row and back row - Treadwell, Timoney, Dow especially

We are too dependant on Coetzee, Henderson, Best in the forwards and Pienaer and Jackson at half back
I also think we need to understand how to utilize our back effectively - beside carrying 2 on Sunday we also lacked power - we need to understand how to combine the power of McCloskey and Piatau with the silky skills of Olding and Marshall especially

by Artful_Dodger Mon Feb 22, 2016 4:27 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Some thoughts going into next year

I think we have a bunch of stalwarts who are in decline - Henry, Wilson, Tuohy, Bowe (Best and Trimble are the exceptions)
Our backrow continues to be short of class - we will be so dependant on Coetzee and Henderson (if he plays there)
Half back is a position that if Pienaer and Jackson don't play we are screwed

We have two props who really have to deliver for us to have any hope - Herbst and Ah You (needs to get fit)
Some forwards, sadly, are just short of the class required - Warwick (not given on him yet though), Black, Lutton, Ross and sad to say Diack (great endeavour but just doesn't quite have it)

Good news we have some youngsters who have done well - McCall, Andrew, AOC, Stockdale, Nelson, Scholes (but he may be leaving)
We need some of those young forward to make a mark in the second row and back row - Treadwell, Timoney, Dow especially

We are too dependant on Coetzee, Henderson, Best in the forwards and Pienaer and Jackson at half back
I also think we need to understand how to utilize our back effectively - beside carrying 2 on Sunday we also lacked power - we need to understand how to combine the power of McCloskey and Piatau with the silky skills of Olding and Marshall especially

We still have another backrow to come though, right? If we get Dom Ryan, Jordi Murphy or Conan from Leinster then that would take a lot of the reliance on Coetzee and Henderson away. A Leinster fan I know told me that Conan is actually the one he would least like to lose out of the three, so if its anyone of those three we are getting a quality player. You got any word as to whether or not it is definitely one of these 3 guys that we are getting?

Half backs definitely a concern behind Jackson and Pienaar. But having a strong second choice in every position is always going to be challenging. We have a lot of depth building in many positions, particularly centre, wing and fullback. If we get someone like Dom Ryan our backrow depth won't actually be too bad with Henderson (IRFU permitting), Henry, Coetzee, Diack, Wilson and Ryan/Murphy/Conan. There is a very good backrow and decent cover in a variety of combinations there.

by geoff999rugby Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:32 pm

A lot of talk re Leinster players but all gone quite.
We have been here before and net result no one wanted to come.

The reality is only Henderson (if allowed) and Coetzee are good enough for the top level
Diack and Wilson are not and, after his heart scare, I seriously doubt, Henry is either.
Reality is the above is combined with a set of promising props but no nailed on scrummager to dominate the opposition and an adequate but unspectacular second row means our pack simply isn't good enough.

Look at Wasps In the backrow they have Smith, Houston, Haskell, Youngs, Reider, Jones
If you put Henderson in the second row I'd take all of them in preference to any backrower at Ulster (given Henrys current form) bar Coetzee.

That is what we are up against

by Artful_Dodger Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:39 pm

The thing is, Kiss intimated that the signings had already been made. So as well as Coetzee, a few weeks back whoever the second signing is would have already have signed. We are already above the quota by one NIQ so it really has to be an Irish player.

by geoff999rugby Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:12 am

Doesn't have to be a Leinster man though - could be a SH player with an Irish granny

by Don Alfonso Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:22 am

Disappointing, but I expected something along those lines when I saw how many players weren't lining out for us.

We had Irish call-ups, sure, and we still have a significant number of very important players injured. But Scarlets are a great team and direct competition for top four. Where was Reidy, who was been standing out in recent months? Where was Williams? Where was Ludik? Were they just rested?

The replacement front row made a significant impact when they came on, as did Pienaar (Marshall had a complete horror show). But they didn't start, presumably, because Kiss doesn't want to flog them, and wanted an impact off the bench - we understand that. But benching them against the Scarlets?

I think Kiss is an excellent tactician, and we have played some brilliant rugby this season. What I don't think Kiss has gotten his head around yet is managing the players' gametime. How would he - he's been with the international team for years now. He's come from the other side of the equation - putting restrictions on player's provincial appearances, not the side struggling to manage those requests. He needs to get to grips with managing a team over almost thirty games over two competitions. In a knock-out situation, even with Henderson, Bowe, Nelson out long-term, I'd fancy us against pretty much any Pro12 side.

by clivemcl Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:05 am

Perhaps he just believes in the bench impact, and maybe wants us to be able to step it up a notch with reasonably fresh players come the play-offs. If that was his gamble... he only got it wrong by a match point.

Pienaar didn't do THAT well when he came on. He got caught in possession a few times, and wasted an opportunity three meters from their line and got bundled into touch.

I met him on Wednesday night - we got a photo of him and my 3 yr old (who is also called Ruan censored

) and he told me he was fine. But I guess... maybe the staff know better. Pienaar hasn't quite been firing on full cylinders, and I don't think he had THAT much an impact on Sunday off the bench. Better that Marshall - but that doesn't say a lot.

Truth is, most of our replacements were on with 15 minutes left - we spent most of that time in the Scarlets half, a lot of it in there 22 - quite a few lineouts, one of which we got turned over very easily.

The more I look at it, I feel the loss is partly due to a poor pack, partly due to poor defence, but quite significantly due to a strong Scarlet's display.

Edit: Just remembering a very good kick to touch from a penalty by Pienaar - credit where credit is due! Pity we couldn't capitalise!

by marty2086 Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:55 am

clivemcl wrote:
I met him on Wednesday night - we got a photo of him and my 3 yr old (who is also called Ruan ) and he told me he was fine. But I guess... maybe the staff know better.

Clive I think the return to play protocols have a set timetable so even if hes ok he needs to follow the steps, if the game had been Friday rather than Sunday we probably wouldn't have seen him in the 23.

Saying that though the protocols call for 14 days following a concussion yet hes back in 9 and if it wasn't a concussion why was did he not return after the HIA?

by Don Alfonso Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:18 pm

There was a clip of Roger was on the radio this morning saying the loss could be a good thing - I'm very wary of those facile "actually best thing that could have happened" rubbish, but we have been cruising, doing just enough to scrape by for a while now (and it almost worked last night as well). Hopefully that's a rocket up the derrière. Crunch end of the season, lads.

by geoff999rugby Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:37 pm

Don Alfonso wrote:Disappointing, but I expected something along those lines when I saw how many players weren't lining out for us.

We had Irish call-ups, sure, and we still have a significant number of very important players injured. But Scarlets are a great team and direct competition for top four. Where was Reidy, who was been standing out in recent months? Where was Williams? Where was Ludik? Were they just rested?

The replacement front row made a significant impact when they came on, as did Pienaar (Marshall had a complete horror show). But they didn't start, presumably, because Kiss doesn't want to flog them, and wanted an impact off the bench - we understand that. But benching them against the Scarlets?

I think Kiss is an excellent tactician, and we have played some brilliant rugby this season. What I don't think Kiss has gotten his head around yet is managing the players' gametime. How would he - he's been with the international team for years now. He's come from the other side of the equation - putting restrictions on player's provincial appearances, not the side struggling to manage those requests. He needs to get to grips with managing a team over almost thirty games over two competitions. In a knock-out situation, even with Henderson, Bowe, Nelson out long-term, I'd fancy us against pretty much any Pro12 side.

Both Williams and Ludik injured - neither serious.
As for the front bench making an impact - Lutton is above Ross in the pecking order and Andrew above Murphy and rightly so.
Ross would have been mauled by John if he had started and Andrew got an injury.
So the only bench front rower who as rested was McCall - and you have to remember he is playing his first season and needs managing a bit to keep him strong for March onwards.

Pienaer not 100%
Reidy did not start as Henry picked in preference and Ross cover more positions from the bench

by The Great Aukster Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:44 pm

clivemcl wrote:Truth is, most of our replacements were on with 15 minutes left - we spent most of that time in the Scarlets half, a lot of it in there 22 - quite a few lineouts, one of which we got turned over very easily.

The more I look at it, I feel the loss is partly due to a poor pack, partly due to poor defence, but quite significantly due to a strong Scarlet's display.

The biggest problem with the pack is that sans Henderson and Williams there is no carrying threat. Otherwise the pack did pretty well securing ball, at the breakdown and set piece and going a long way to edging the stats. For me the losing of the game was down to the backs lack of defence and their lack of attack.

In defence the main culprit was Darren Cave who missed five tackles and was so far off the pace that I wondered if he was concussed. Conceding so many easy points is unacceptable especially for someone who is tasked with running the defensive line.

In attack Paddy Jackson was poor and did his Ireland chances no good. He was the captain and not taking points in a tight game is criminal especially when Ulster were down to 14 and looking impotent ball in hand. He consistently played from far too deep in Ulster's half especially knowing that he didn't have any ball carrying power on the pitch. The conditions and personnel on the pitch should have told him to not just kick the points but also attempt more drop goals to build a score when Ulster were simply going through phases until they inevitably lost the ball. Paddy had plenty of opportunities to take Ulster ahead but either didn't see them or spurned them.

Paul Marshall was what you get when he tries to assume any leadership - harebrained. Disappointingly Olding was just as much in that category, so where Marshall knocks on from a penalty so does Olding from a straight forward catch. When Ulster get a turnover 5m out from the Ulster line Marshall thinks it's a good idea to run rather than clear, and Olding does exactly the same thing. Marshall is the last line with onrushing Scarlets and no one to pass to (or make a chase) so he thinks it's a good idea to kick straight infield to their back three rather than touch, Olding does the same... two disappointing performances.

Stockdale gets a bye because this is his honeymoon period but he needs to show he can soon learn how to retain possession rather than give it up every time he is tackled.

At the time I thought Marshall had a good game but given the dross going on around him, should he have done more? Gilroy wasn't faultless either but if everyone else had risen to his and Luke's standards, Ulster would have won that game.

by Guest Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:23 pm

I would say Luke had a great game, considering the dross that went on around him.

by Don Alfonso Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:48 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:Disappointing, but I expected something along those lines when I saw how many players weren't lining out for us.

We had Irish call-ups, sure, and we still have a significant number of very important players injured. But Scarlets are a great team and direct competition for top four. Where was Reidy, who was been standing out in recent months? Where was Williams? Where was Ludik? Were they just rested?

The replacement front row made a significant impact when they came on, as did Pienaar (Marshall had a complete horror show). But they didn't start, presumably, because Kiss doesn't want to flog them, and wanted an impact off the bench - we understand that. But benching them against the Scarlets?

I think Kiss is an excellent tactician, and we have played some brilliant rugby this season. What I don't think Kiss has gotten his head around yet is managing the players' gametime. How would he - he's been with the international team for years now. He's come from the other side of the equation - putting restrictions on player's provincial appearances, not the side struggling to manage those requests. He needs to get to grips with managing a team over almost thirty games over two competitions. In a knock-out situation, even with Henderson, Bowe, Nelson out long-term, I'd fancy us against pretty much any Pro12 side.

Both Williams and Ludik injured - neither serious.
As for the front bench making an impact - Lutton is above Ross in the pecking order and Andrew above Murphy and rightly so.
Ross would have been mauled by John if he had started and Andrew got an injury.
So the only bench front rower who as rested was McCall - and you have to remember he is playing his first season and needs managing a bit to keep him strong for March onwards.

Pienaer not 100%
Reidy did not start as Henry picked in preference and Ross cover more positions from the bench

Lutton gives away ridiculous penalties every single game he plays. Not rolling away, obstruction etc. Week in, week out. H e might be better than Ross in the scrum, but there was an obvious lift in energy and application when that substitution happened. (although I was impressed with both young hookers.)

Anyway, if that's just the way things happened, rather than miscalculations, then that's good. But I still think it's obvious Kiss is learning about club rugby properly (ref Oyonnnax game).

by clivemcl Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:18 pm

I know this is a tad harsh but Luke at one point found himself on the wing with one defender covering over. The space was ahead to kick to, but he sliced the grubber and it went 45 degrees and over towards the covering fullback (who was coming way too late.)

It's not the easiest thing to do, but someone of Marshall's ability will know that was a spurned opportunity.

I re-watched the last 15 minutes, and the notion that we didnt have carriers isn't entirely true. We did actually have some success in our attack in the last 15 minutes, breaking tackles and making ground in contact. But it never came to anything.

Lost a lineout due to VDM not being brought down and secured (by Wilson) and failed to gather our own throw in at another, then Wilson knocks on after picking up from our retreating scrum, Pienaar decided to pick and go and ran into his own player three meters out... the list goes on...

The territory, possession and ground made by us in that time period ought to have produced far more than 3 points.

by geoff999rugby Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:07 am

Our main problem is simple we don't get over the gain line - you have to put the opposition on the back foot - we rarely do and as a consequence are expecting far to much of our talent backs.
They have the talent to exploit gaps but if the gaps are not created in the first place you are screwed.

Not one of those starting forwards, once AOC left, makes the hard yards.
Now in the front five if they do their job elsewhere that is acceptable
The props didn't even do that.
I'll call it now - that back three is toothless and is the biggest single problem.

In the backs, for all the silky skills, you need 1, and preferably 2, backs who can break the gain line off first phase - that is why McCloskey is key.

Our season next year totally revolves around Coetzee, Henderson, McCloskey and Piatau for that reason - they are our go to players. (and that is why a fit AH You would be such a bonus he makes the hard yards as well)
McCloskey and Piatau should help create genuine gaps for the likes of Marshall and Olding to exploit

by Sponsored content