Ulster 2015/2016 Part 2

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Continue your discussion of all things Ulster here.

Ian Porter confirmed to be leaving Connacht, looks like the rumours of a scrum-half from Connacht are going to be true.

Don't expect it to bother Shanahan's heart rate too much.

Anyone else sick of these endless IQ half back signings and re-signings?

I know some rate Shanahan - I'm yet to be convinced - but I do very much hope he can actually become better than the last 5/6 IQs we've had on our books since Boss left. And Boss wasn't home grown either.

It has to be the greatest failure of our province developmentally in the modern era.

I was disappointed we let Porter go as he can pass and kick. We could have developed him into a handy player, had we coaches who can develop players.

Porter has been decent for them but is behind Cooney and Marmion. Both pretty good scrum halves, better than the two we have behind Pienaar. So while he's certainly no world beater he can be an upgrade on the very poor options we have.

Also, Pienaar has been off form and we can only hope that he is not picked for South Africa as he's played way too much rugby and you can see that.

Geoff - heard any scurrilous any rumours about the coaching set-up?

clivemcl wrote:Rumour is the replacement 10 from england is Brett Connon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9sxc-J3PBk

Not hugely exciting.

Same age as McPhillips, and McPhillips has been starting for Ireland u20s whilst Connon has been on the bench.

Remember last time we signed an Irish U20 out-half - that went well didn't it!

If it's true, I don't see either of them breaking through, and suspect Paddy's backup will be Nelson next season, followed by Windsor I guess.

Let's hope the backrow IQ signing is more relevant.

So the rumour mill was half right: Brett Connon Herron
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35976749?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

Johnny McPhillips was also an England u18 and his home club is Newcastle Falcons - the same as Brett Connon... (and that other Jonny Englishten)

In the u20 6N Connon looked a far more natural kicker than McPhillips so I hope they've backed the right horse!

Ulster have one Test class 10: Jackson, and they need another.

There is a pattern: Niall O'Connor who wasn't good enough, the recall of Humphreys who was really past whatever his best was, guys like Mike Stanley, James McKinney and Sam Windsor are never going to be Test class and now McPhillips and Herron might have promise, but then O'Hagen had a lot of potential too.

Players like Luke Marshall, Stuart McCloskey and Peter Nelson have been used to fill in the blanks at times but that shows how poor the squad recruitment has been. Obviously this has gone back before Cunningham's time but flyhalf is arguably the single most important position on the pitch and yet Ulster seem to treat it with casual disregard.

Maybe Ulster are looking at Olding as a competitor for the position but hitherto the lack of any serious competition isn't doing either Paddy or the team any good.

Well it comes down to our Academy structures and sub-Academy structures because we can't get an NIQ 10. I don't think we can afford to do that with he weaknesses in the pack. We'd be signing a back-up to Jackson and we'd have to get rid of a lock, or a back row...

Remember guys like Steenson are not going to come back to Ireland to cover another players absence; we either develop them internally or get young ambitious Irish-qualified 10s. Or mediocre journeymen failing that. We can't retain players like Scholes or Seymour (hope Scholes will return), and we can't get guys like Steenson in because they are not going to play second fiddle, they know they are good and they have ambition to play in the big games.

Honestly I think Ulster need maybe 7 or 8 NIQ signings to have a truly competitive squad and we can only have 4 or 5... you're not going to retain 2 good players for every position even if you can produce them, and we can't sign NIQs as squad players, so we really rely on journeymen to fill gaps by dint of the system we work in. God bless the Paul Marshalls, Robbie Diacks and Darren Caves of this world. Just good enough to do their job, not so good they know they can move somewhere they'll get more recognition. But the provinces will struggle to match English and French clubs who aren't limited in this way as time goes on.

I think we can definitely, definitely get better coaches involved in our structures but we can't magic up a top quality 10 who is happy to sit and watch Jackson get all the important games and go off to Ireland camps because he's the one the Ireland coaches have their eye on. We need a young, hungry player at the start of their career and some of them will be duds.

Notch wrote:Well it comes down to our Academy structures and sub-Academy structures because we can't get an NIQ 10. I don't think we can afford to do that with he weaknesses in the pack. We'd be signing a back-up to Jackson and we'd have to get rid of a lock, or a back row...

Remember guys like Steenson are not going to come back to Ireland to cover another players absence; we either develop them internally or get young ambitious Irish-qualified 10s. Or mediocre journeymen failing that. We can't retain players like Scholes or Seymour (hope Scholes will return), and we can't get guys like Steenson in because they are not going to play second fiddle, they know they are good and they have ambition to play in the big games.

Honestly I think Ulster need maybe 7 or 8 NIQ signings to have a truly competitive squad and we can only have 4 or 5... you're not going to retain 2 good players for every position even if you can produce them, and we can't sign NIQs as squad players, so we really rely on journeymen to fill gaps by dint of the system we work in. God bless the Paul Marshalls, Robbie Diacks and Darren Caves of this world. Just good enough to do their job, not so good they know they can move somewhere they'll get more recognition. But the provinces will struggle to match English and French clubs who aren't limited in this way as time goes on.

I think we can definitely, definitely get better coaches involved in our structures but we can't magic up a top quality 10 who is happy to sit and watch Jackson get all the important games and go off to Ireland camps because he's the one the Ireland coaches have their eye on. We need a young, hungry player at the start of their career and some of them will be duds.

I know this is expanding the conversation a bit, but given how reliant we are on academy prospects, its pretty outrageous that the pool of players we have coming into the academy pool are almost entirely from a tiny number of elite grammar schools. If we want more talent coming through we have to look at the number coming through the school system, which is pretty shambolic currently.

For anyone who didn't notice Tommy Bowe made his comeback today as the Ulster A team beat Munster A 38-31. Bowe played the first half, Cave captained the team

The Great Aukster wrote:Ulster have one Test class 10: Jackson, and they need another.

There is a pattern: Niall O'Connor who wasn't good enough, the recall of Humphreys who was really past whatever his best was, guys like Mike Stanley, James McKinney and Sam Windsor are never going to be Test class and now McPhillips and Herron might have promise, but then O'Hagen had a lot of potential too.

Players like Luke Marshall, Stuart McCloskey and Peter Nelson have been used to fill in the blanks at times but that shows how poor the squad recruitment has been. Obviously this has gone back before Cunningham's time but flyhalf is arguably the single most important position on the pitch and yet Ulster seem to treat it with casual disregard.

Maybe Ulster are looking at Olding as a competitor for the position but hitherto the lack of any serious competition isn't doing either Paddy or the team any good.

Two test class 10s? Like what other team? Maybe Glasgow, at a push, in Russell and Weir.

Leinster are losing Madigan now that Sexton is back, and Marsh is no great shakes. Munster let Hanrahan go and Keatley has bombed. Connacht brought in AJ McGinty and now are losing him again. The idea that a team will have two 10s of that calibre - that a test class flyhalf will sit as second choice, given the importance of the role and the money they can command - is crazy. There will be two test-class 10s on the whole of the island at the start of next season - Sexton and Jacko - never mind on one team.

Not my idea Don - it's the stated goal of Ulster Rugby from David Humphreys' time and perpetuated by Shane Logan to have two Test class players for every position and a promising development player.

Guys like Isa Nacewa, Sam Davies, Rhys Patchell, Gareth Anscombe, Ruaridh Jackson, Jason Tovey, Nicky Robinson, JJ Hanarahan, Henry Slade, Billy Twelvetrees, Shane Geraghty (+ numerous French) who may not necessarily be considered the starting 10 for their side are still good enough to have either played Test rugby in the past or will play it in the future.

Ulster had Paddy Wallace and Adam Larkin as backup to Humphreys in the past and others like Paul Steinmetz who were all better than the recent understudies, so if it wasn't historically crazy, and probably the majority of competitors have better depth than Ulster why should it be crazy for Ulster to have that quality of cover in case Jackson gets hurt?

I'd take issue with quite a few - most, if I'm being completely honest - of the names on that list as being international standard tens. And it doesn't matter if they're going to be, because by the time they are, they might not be second choice.

It can be the stated aim of Logan all he wants - it's not realistic for anyone apart from the richest French and English teams.

Not to say we couldn't have better - we certainly could - but two international standard? I also don't believe the majority of competitors have better depth than Ulster.

Don - Obviously the teams you consider to be Ulster's competition are less aspirational than mine.

The teams that are Ulsters competition do not labour under the same rules around foreign players as we do and many have better Academies.

We need to greatly improve our Academy structures and get in as many talented young players as possible. Only way we'll ever have depth.

Coatzee out for nine months. He'll burst on to the scene during the 6N.

What is it with guys signing for us and then getting crippled?

Do you have a link, Don? The only place I have seen it reported is the Sharks fans site. It doesn't look good, but fingers crossed it won't be that long. Without Coetzee, Sharks are going to struggle badly.

Don Alfonso wrote:Coatzee out for nine months. He'll burst on to the scene during the 6N.

What is it with guys signing for us and then getting crippled?

Thats next season completely f*cked unless we can sign a decent injury replacement. Imagine this years back row, but Wilson and Henry are both a year older and Williams is gone. Thats us until Coetzee is fit. Hopefully we get license to play Henderson in the back row, because even guys like Diack and Henry look like their best days are behind them now.

Probably we will get a decent replacement and he'll get injured too.

We can only hope and pray we manage to work some magic on persuading someone to come North. Hell, we should be waving fat wads of cash and every back rower in the other three provinces squads at this stage.

http://sport360.com/article/rugby/uae-rugby/174266/ulster-invite-dubai-exiles-star-tom-stapley-for-two-months-training-in-july/

Say what now?

Why not? Maybe he'll be good, maybe not. Dunno what position he plays. Looks like a back.

Hardly costs Ulster anything to invite a kid over for a trial.

We are very close to our toughest season for a long long time.

Coetzee, if what I have heard is correct, will not be seen till the 6N

That leaves us with a backrow from (please note Dublin will insist on Henderson in the second row):
Diack - honest trier good hands but not good enough
Clive Ross - squad filler
Wilson - by his own admission his legs have gone
Henry - not been the same player since his brain scare. I think he is on borrowed time
Faloon - almost certainly will retire through injury
Joyce - hasn't made it, not good enough
Taggart - yet to break through; doesn't look anything special
Dow - good prospect no experience
Timoney - good prospect no experience
Mulholland - club player and no more than a squad filler

If we don't get any more players in, and we may not, we will be murdered next year
Bare in mind this is behind a front five that are no great shakes.
Henderson and Best are the real deal and a handful are decent prospects (Herbst, McCall, Warwick, AOC, Treadwell) but overall nothing special

Add to that we fall off a huge cliff at 9 if Pienaer is injured and a medium size cliff if Jackson gets injured and the net effect is you can have the best backs in the world but doesn't matter if they never see the ball.
As further piece of doom and gloom we actually could be short on the wing - after Trimble, Bowe (himself only an injury away from retirement) and Gilroy there is not a lot

We needed 2 high quality backrowers to make ourselves competitive - we currently have none.
All talk about a Leinster boy but as the saying goes you can drag a horse to water but you cant make it drink - I think that is what is happening here.
Nucifora has contributed NOTHING to player rotation - the man is a tube

Talking of tubes - Clarke has, imo, caused the departure of the following props from Ulster rugby
McAllister (first team regular at Gloucester), Bealham (Connaught and Irish international), Carey (Connaught), Taylor (the best prospect of the lot playing club rugby and would get a contract at Ulster in a shot if Clarke left)

This man is a cancer at our club and needs to be sacked.

I honestly believe we will finish in the bottom half of the table next year with our current squad

That new boy by the way is an inside centre - yep need more of those  

This talk of 2 International players in every position is unobtainable bunkum - Logan for the all the good he has gone does talk some tripe at times.

We are as good as you can expect at 10.
We don't have a half decent back up 9 and if Pienaer leave next summer, which is quite likely, we have no decent 9's.
I'd settle for one decent 9 for 2017-18.

As for the forwards we talk about a second choice international class player - we are  a long way off a set of first choice International class forwards - lets not get ahead of ourselves.

Going back to that nasty piece of work, Clarke, hearing he had a part to play in Codling going.
Codling was doing a good job  - Clarke probably saw that as a threat and put the knife in.

Until Clarke goes we as a team are going nowhere

Even without your input Geoff it seems blatantly obvious that Clarke is not up to the job, forwards unless naturally gifted show little to no improvement at Ulster, Reidy would be an exception and some actually seem to go backwards and when he had a bigger say lesser players were playing ahead of players who were clearly better options.

Its not nice seeing people lose their job but given that he seems to be almost toxic to the organisation, how has he still got a job? Especially given Kiss seemingly being more ruthless and those coming before him and Logans cutthroat approach with Anscombe

The question is how much power does Kiss have - this summer will tell.
There are still Neanderthals on the committee who don't want 'johnny foreigner' having too much power.

As to Anscombe remember Muller told Logan he had to go but Logan still dithered.
In the end he embarrassed himself once too much in public by being drunk.
Clarke is far more dangerous - puts the knife in behind closed doors.

Dear Johannes Muller - please find enclosed a package containing the moon. The sun and the stars are waiting for you in your old home in NI (onto which, in your absence, we have built a four-storey extension, you own church and a helipad).

Please come back and coach our forwards.

Yours, Ulster Rugby fans.

geoff999rugby wrote:The question is how much power does Kiss have - this summer will tell.
There are still Neanderthals on the committee who don't want 'johnny foreigner' having too much power.

As to Anscombe remember Muller told Logan he had to go but Logan still dithered.
In the end he embarrassed himself once too much in public by being drunk.
Clarke is far more dangerous - puts the knife in behind closed doors.

I can understand Logan hesitating to an extent, it doesn't reflect well on the organisation especially if you are looking to recruit a big name in the aftermath who might not know the ins and outs of the decision.

I cant believe there are those on the committee having an issue because Kiss is a foreigner, they do realise the problem with hindering progress? It doesn't just affect the club but the game across the province and a lesser extent the country?

geoff999rugby wrote:Going back to that nasty piece of work, Clarke, hearing he had a part to play in Codling going.
Codling was doing a good job  - Clarke probably saw that as a threat and put the knife in.

Until Clarke goes we as a team are going nowhere

How in the sweet suffering f*ck does he have a job?

What has he actually ever achieved post-retirement? What has Doak ever achieved?

Does anyone think if either left any other team would take them on?

Given that the IRFU played a big part in Kiss coming to us, I think those 'neanderthals' on the committee would want to be pretty careful.

Notch wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Going back to that nasty piece of work, Clarke, hearing he had a part to play in Codling going.
Codling was doing a good job  - Clarke probably saw that as a threat and put the knife in.

Until Clarke goes we as a team are going nowhere

How in the sweet suffering f*ck does he have a job?

What has he actually ever achieved post-retirement? What has Doak ever achieved?

Does anyone think if either left any other team would take them on?

Firstly Notch I've never heard that highlighted phrase being used and if you don't mind I am going to half-inch it

Secondly those two finifhing sentences say it all, no other argument needed for us to get shot of them. If only someone had pair to actually do it.

Oh and FFS, what the hell do we have to do to keep our signings fit before they come to us? I won't dare mention Charlie-boy for fear of an injury there too.

Excuse my ignorance.

How does it work with Doak and Clarke?
Are they on a contract for a certain period like a normal coach, or are they like a salaried position where you just continue year on year?

Second option makes it a bit harder to oust them.

I think they both have contracts up this year?

It sucks. Of course. But it's rugby. And Coetzee is just another one of our players. Potential to be one of our best, but in fairness an injury like this could easily have struck Pienaar or Henderson or Best. As annoying as it is, that's part of rugby. ANd more importantly, being a top rugby side means still having the ability to be good despite inevitable injuries.

Basically if
Coetzee injured for months = Ulster will be awful
therefore
Ulster are a one man team

And if that's really true, then players like Pienaar and Coetzee and Piuatau are just plugging holes in a bursting dam.

Coetzee and Piutau were (still are) great signings, but truthfully the more important thing is either the signing of IQ players (who will stick around), or the breaking through of young players who will become very good.

I put it to you, that our inability to have a strong showing of Irish players is a much much bigger concern than Coetzee getting injured, who, judging by the comments on here was coming in to merely try and disguise our inadequacies as an Irish rugby province.

(In the forwards and half backs at least)

Yeah, massive inadequacies in the forwards. Hope Treadwell turns out to be really good because Tuohy has just gone way downhill. That would give us four decent locks. McCall is okay, but we need another... couple of tight heads. Have no faith in Ah You who looks lazy and was diabolical against us the other week. Lutton is a penalty magnet, Ross is totally mediocre. Herbst only scrummages but he's indispensable!

There's a lot of teams with average forwards who do okay because they're really well coached mind you. We can't buy in players of Coetzees calibre to cover our inadequacies forever and we can't magic up Irish forwards to play for us out of thin air, but starting with the coaching would be a good idea because we can look at solving that problem tomorrow.

Here's a sobering thought- Trimble is 31, Bowe is 32, Pienaar is 32, Wilson is 34, Henry is 31, Diack is 30.

In terms of long term replacements for those players on the books, we have Craig Gilroy on the books and thats it. All are showing signs of decline already (Wilson being more at the end of his decline).

When we say we have great depth that is actually only at centre and nowhere else. We have decent depth at centre and lock, awful depth in the front row, awful depth at halfback, poor depth in the back three and no first choice back row never mind second choice.

If we're going to be rebuilding for several years at least lets start with players being coached well and working their way though Academy systems were they are coached well.

The Academy produces nothing for us, and I'd say there seriously needs to be an inquest because actually the Connacht Academy i producing far more players ready for this level, and we have the same number of clubs in the top division of the AIL as them. We were told that Humphreys was going to improve this when he came in, he's been and gone- has anything changed at all?

Yes the failure of our Academy is a bigger concern but the reality is in the here and now Coetzee is the only backrower on the books, for next year, who is good enough to compete (assume Hendo at lock) at the highest level and we have lost him  for most of the season.

The players I listed mean we will be going into the Pro12 next year with the worst backrow in the entire league (definitely without the Italians, and possibly with).

We could be in for a very very rough season.

Our Academy is broken with respect to local talent - half the players we produce are from Dublin or England and shipped over to bolster the  Academy. Of the 18 players in this year Academy, 7 are from outside.
Of the 3 forwards who have impressed the most - 2 are from outside to which you can add Treadwell.
So 3 of the 4 best forward prospects going into next year are 'blow ins'

From 1 to 9 our Academy has produce hardly anyone, for many a year, - Henderson is the exception.

Both Clarke and Doak do not have a contract signed for next year so if they are here in August  I will be fuming.

I honestly thing Tuohy, Wilson, Henry and Bowe are all finished or will be soon.

As I said as if a mediocre front five, an appalling backrow and no cover at half back isn't enough we could be short on the wing next year.

We are entering dangerous territory.

On the other site someone has posted the following for the Zebre (I have modified slightly)

Out injured - AOC, Ludik, McCloskey, Williams, Tuohy  and Herbst


McCall Best Lutton FVDM Browne Hendo Henry Wilson RP Jackson Gilroy Marshall Cave Trimble Payne

Black Herring Warwick Diack Reidy Marshall Olding Bowe

Fits with what I know

Met Callum Black recently by the way - a genuinely easily going guy

Cave has been a bit of an empty shirt lately, hope he can find some form.

Here is something to keep you awake at night - suppose Wilson, Henry and Faloon are either injured/retire in the next 6 months, all perfectly feasible and no Leinster player comes north (highly likely) we are left with the following for backrow selection

Diack, Ross, Joyce, Taggart, Dow, Timoney, Mulholland

No Reidy? Do you know something we don't? (About Reidy specifically.)

Still appalling, even with him, though.

Given Wilsons fitness, age and general form would it be such a bad idea to give Dow another run out at 8?

The brief glimpse we saw earlier in the season showed a bit of promise, from reports it seemed he had a solid game for the A team and if there is a game to try a young player in it would be this?

Reidy missing is a typo - but the point still stands.

Missed him from the list higher up as well.

Reidy has been great for us this season, although it is Williams that has really carried this team.

Although we are losing Williams, and Scholes, next season, the arrival of Coetzee and Piutau will make us stronger, on paper. Horrible bad luck for us that Coetzee is now out for 9 months but, as Clive points out, that can happen to any key player at any time.

Our biggest concern this season has been our backrow and, even if Coetzee had have been fit to play, this will remain our biggest concern for next season, even though we are weak at 9 and TH as well. With Coetzee out for 9 months, and Williams gone, it is vital that we get a suitable replacement, even if temporary, for next season. Williams carried this team this season, and the thought of being without him, and the loss of Coetzee until December, is frightening. Henderson wouldn't be as missed in the 2nd row, as much as he would be in the back. We simply must play him in the backrow. At least until Coetzee is fit to play.

Ulster shouldn't be relying on individual players as much as we are. I look at Connacht and marvel at how well they cope with injuries, and look at us and despair at how reliant we are on the big names. I have to think that's a coaching issue, as well as a sign of a failing academy.
Herbst still has the same issue in the scrum as he had when he first arrived. Why on earth has this not been addressed? McCall and O'Connor only returned to the senior side once Kiss arrived. Considering how well both have done, why not much sooner? Codling arrives to coach the A's, and now we are losing him, after looking to be doing a fantastic job, and in his first season! Why? If all these questions point to Clarke then the biggest question has to be; why on earth is he still with us?

We need a Sniper in the stands to deal with Clarke at this stage.

What I cannot accept is that we still are unable to attract a back row player from one of the other provinces. Seriously, the sheer depth in this position for Leinster, Munster and even Connacht now is outrageous compared to what we have.

Is this not a great example where Nucifora should step in? Isn't this part of his job?

To put things into perspective:

Munster: Shane Buckley, Jordan Coughlan, Dave O'Callaghan, Tommy O'Donnell, Peter O'Mahony, Robin Copeland, Jack O'Donoghue, CJ Stander (clearly struggling at openside flanker but an abundance of players at 6/8)

Leinster: Dan Leavy, Jordi Murphy, Sean O'Brien, Rhys Ruddock, Dominic Ryan, Tony Ryan (?), Josh van der Flier, Jack Conan, Jamie Heaslip with more good players coming through the academy

Connacht: Nepia Fox-Matamua, Jake Heenan, Eoghan Masterson, John Muldoon, Eoin Mckeon, George Naoupu with the very impressive Sean O'Brien and James Connolly in the academy

There are also locks who can play in the back row that I haven't mentioned such as Ben Marshall for Connacht. Virtually any of these players would be an asset to the Ulster team and many are not getting a lot of game time at Pro12 level due to the extremely competitive environment. Can we honestly not persuade the likes of Shane Buckley, for example, to move and get regular game time at Ulster?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:What I cannot accept is that we still are unable to attract a back row player from one of the other provinces. Seriously, the sheer depth in this position for Leinster, Munster and even Connacht now is outrageous compared to what we have.

Is this not a great example where Nucifora should step in? Isn't this part of his job?

As I said you can drag a horse to water but you cant make it drink.

Players don't want o leave Dublin for Belfast..simple as.

Remember McLaughlin was content to be 6th/7th choice at Leinster rather than 3rd/4th choice at Ulster a few years back.

Nucifora is a complete and utter failure, it is not working, it will never work.
People are human beings you cannot treat them as cattle to move around as it suits you.
All his policy has done so far is lose Marty Moore to England... priceless

Few observation:

Cant blame it all on Clarke, although he has a lot to answer for
Logan has concentrated to much of commercialism to the detriment of the rugby
If Kiss is not allowed to/or does not sack Clarke and Doak it will be a bad day

Williams has been decent but not that brilliant - think some here are going over the top.
If he has stood out it is because the alternatives in the backrow have to a man ( Reidyexcepted ) have been poor

Think you are undervaluing the contribution of Williams for Ulster, this season. He has been much more than decent, in my view, and will be a big loss next season, in the absence of Coetzee.

We can only hope that Clarke, in particular, moves on at the end of season, but who do we replace him with? Who would be available?

geoff, would you elaborate on what is too much commercialism?

Naoupu is off at the end of the season. Might be worth a punt?

Notch wrote:We need a Sniper in the stands to deal with Clarke at this stage.

Well it is Belfast surely can't be that hard to find someone who's handy with a rifle lol

neilthom7 wrote:

Notch wrote:We need a Sniper in the stands to deal with Clarke at this stage.

Well it is Belfast surely can't be that hard to find someone who's handy with a rifle lol

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