Ulster 2015/2016 Part 2

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Continue your discussion of all things Ulster here.

For me Williams has had a number of outstanding games but by the same token a number of mediocre ones.
People remember the handful of the former because the alternative players in the backrow have been very poor.
It is easier to stand out in a sea of mediocrity.

Let me put it this way - if he was a Wasps player he wouldn't even make the bench - that is how far we are behind the best teams

My point about Logan is he has done every he can to increase the revenue of the province which is a good thing but has not addressed some fundamental flaws around the rugby e.g. coaching staff, dysfunctional academy, not letting supporters know about 'A' matches.

I also feel there has been too much pandering to what I can only describe to a 'false' atmosphere things like the Band, condescending platitudes about behaviour, announcers/half time pitch commentators from Q Radio who cant pronounces names and know the square of F*** all about rugby. Leicester should be our bench mark not Saracens.

Money is important but so is the rugby - it is the reason we are here

I reckon/pray we will get at least one injury replacement of an acceptable standard - if not we are truly goosed.
I honestly can see us in the bottom half of the table next year.

Of course that is true, players are not like cattle. However, if the IRFU are going to have such a direct role in terms of how the provinces are managed, surely they should be working hard to ensure all 4 provinces are thoroughly strengthened with IQ players who can receive regular game time at a high level. They should be encouraging those playing consistently at B&I level to consider a move within Ireland. A lot of these players move abroad anyway.

It's not that I doubt any of you guys, I just don't like accepting rhetoric, especially when it comes to sports fans as there is tendancy to latch on and conduct witch hunts.

But I want to agree with you. It's just that I need you to explain it to me better.

It would appear that you all believe Clarke and Doak to be (at best) unskilled, and (at worst) poisonous to the setup, and that they are mostly to blame for poor development and performances.

So my question is - what do they do that Kiss doesn't? How is it that Kiss has a get out of jail free card? What reasons do we have for assuming Kiss is not responsible similarly in the past number of months?

Is he not present when coaching happens? Does he not coach? Does he not tell Doak and Clarke what way to coach?

geoff999rugby wrote:Let me put it this way - if he was a Wasps player he wouldn't even make the bench - that is how far we are behind the best teams

Yeah it is, but we have five non-Irish qualified players and they have nineteen non-English players. For a while, the IRFU was made to look like we could have our cake and eat it because Munster and Leinster had outstanding generations of Irish players that all came through at the same time. But we cannot compare ourselves to a team like that when we have restrictions on who we can sign. I mean I would have Ulsters Academy behind teams like Dragons, so we're clearly not ever going to be on their level with the current limitations unless something changes.

geoff999rugby wrote:I also feel there has been too much pandering to what I can only describe to a 'false' atmosphere things like the Band, condescending platitudes about behaviour, announcers/half time pitch commentators from Q Radio who cant pronounces names and know the square of F*** all about rugby. Leicester should be our bench mark not Saracens.

All that stuff may be annoying to some, but it obviously has nothing to do with how the team performs or is coached. Also it has little to do with the atmosphere. People complain about the band for instance but if the fans were actually making noise they would be fine. They don't hurt the atmosphere- you can only hear them because the crowd isn't really generating any atmosphere in the first place. The announcers are only on at halftime and nobody pays any attention to them anyway, and a wee note in the programme is easily ignored. If you want Leicester to be our bench mark you'd be better off having a word with the people coming through the gates.

clivemcl wrote:So my question is - what do they do that Kiss doesn't? How is it that Kiss has a get out of jail free card? What reasons do we have for assuming Kiss is not responsible similarly in the past number of months?

Is he not present when coaching happens? Does he not coach? Does he not tell Doak and Clarke what way to coach?

My biggest frustration with how we're playing since Kiss started is the lack of any kind of effective territorial kicking or chasing game, frequently to our own detriment as we try yet another elaborate backs move off slow ball from our own 22.

geoff999rugby wrote:For me Williams has had a number of outstanding games but by the same token a number of mediocre ones.
People remember the handful of the former because the alternative players in the backrow have been very poor.
It is easier to stand out in a sea of mediocrity.

Let me put it this way - if he was a Wasps player he wouldn't even make the bench - that is how far we are behind the best teams

My point about Logan is he has done every he can to increase the revenue of the province which is a good thing but has not addressed some fundamental flaws around the rugby e.g. coaching staff, dysfunctional academy, not letting supporters know about 'A' matches.

I also feel there has been too much pandering to what I can only describe to a 'false' atmosphere things like the Band, condescending platitudes about behaviour, announcers/half time pitch commentators from Q Radio who cant pronounces names and know the square of F*** all about rugby. Leicester should be our bench mark not Saracens.

Money is important but so is the rugby - it is the reason we are here

I reckon/pray we will get at least one injury replacement of an acceptable standard - if not we are truly goosed.
I  honestly can see us in the bottom half of the table next year.

Disagree with you. Most of Williams games have been outstanding this season. Can't really think of the mediocre ones, unless you are thinking of his last game, in which he was trying to play through an injury, before being taken off during half-time and after receiving another injury. You did mention his being off form in that game a couple of times, post match, but didn't mention the fact that he was trying to play through injury. Tell the truth, and shame the Devil; you just don't like him
I don't believe there are many teams that would turn Williams away right now. Not in his present form.

Genuine question; what role does Logan play? Is the Academy and coaching staff his responsibility, or are others employed to ensure we get best possible coaching ticket? The final decisions may be down to him, but he was brought in to look after the commercial side, and that's something he has excelled in. I'm not a PR man for Logan either. He lays on the spin a bit thick, as this nonsense about two Test class players for each position shows. To be fair to Logan, he never promised that Ulster would be world beaters any time soon:

The CEO estimates it could take "10 or 15 years" for Ulster to get where it wants to be in terms of that pool of players coming through to the high performance level" (2013)



Things could be better right now though, and maybe he is too soft when it comes to applying the axe. He got rid of Anscombe, but how much of that was down to Doak and Clarke? The men that we would like replaced .....

One thing surely does stand in Logans favour, and that's the fact that he didn't simply replace Anscombe with Doak or Clarke. He could have done, just like Munster did with Foley, but he went to IRFU and they gave him a Kiss

clivemcl wrote:
It would appear that you all believe Clarke and Doak to be (at best) unskilled, and (at worst) poisonous to the setup,

I don't believe I KNOW Clarke is poisonous - he has no man management skills and will do anything to defend his position.
I suspect those 4 props I menbtioned that left, left because they made the mistake of having minds of their own.
As to Codling going that is looking highly unsavoury.

Nobody said Doak was poisonous. He was in shock when both Humphreys and Anscombe went but, understandably, took the opportunity offered.
He was made the main man far to early in his coaching career - he remains a decent backs coach.
However I think the mess created under his leadership means he probably has to go as well  

clivemcl wrote:  and that they are mostly to blame for poor development

Who said that ???
The underperformance of our Academy are many and varied.

clivemcl wrote: and performances.

Well of course they took the pre season training which set the tone for the year.
They were in sole charge for the first part of the year so why wouldn't they be, primarily, responsible.

clivemcl wrote: So my question is - what do they do that Kiss doesn't? How is it that Kiss has a get out of jail free card? What reasons do we have for assuming Kiss is not responsible similarly in the past number of months?

Is he not present when coaching happens? Does he not coach? Does he not tell Doak and Clarke what way to coach?

He doesn't get out of jail free but he wasn't here for the first part of the season and, initially, we did see some improvement when he returned after the World Cup.
The decline since the New Year has been a cause for concern - I think it reasonable to judge Kiss on what he does next year when he is here from the beginning - but we must give him the tools to work with.
Having the worst backrow in the league means he will be working with 1 hand tied behind his back.

As to telling others what they should do - who knows
Lets see who is retained on the coaching staff this summer, that will speak volumes as to where the power lays.

Well lets say that if they were in a club in England Clarke and Doak would long since been shown the exit - there is a jobs for the boys culture at most of the provinces that is poisonous for sure.

Look through the whole staff panel and what they have or haven't achieved with respect of their current roles.

Notch wrote:  

geoff999rugby wrote:Let me put it this way - if he was a Wasps player he wouldn't even make the bench - that is how far we are behind the best teams

Yeah it is, but we have five non-Irish qualified players and they have nineteen non-English players. For a while, the IRFU was made to look like we could have our cake and eat it because Munster and Leinster had outstanding generations of Irish players that all came through at the same time. But we cannot compare ourselves to a team like that when we have restrictions on who we can sign. I mean I would have Ulsters Academy behind teams like Dragons, so we're clearly not ever going to be on their level with the current limitations unless something changes.

Obviously they can recruit more but as you allude to our Academy is not delivering
If it did we wouldn't be in this mess.
As to Wasps next year they can put out a backrow, of English qualified players where none of our backrowers would make the team (with the Henderson to Lock caveat) so not all down to foreigners.

 

Notch wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:I also feel there has been too much pandering to what I can only describe to a 'false' atmosphere things like the Band, condescending platitudes about behaviour, announcers/half time pitch commentators from Q Radio who cant pronounces names and know the square of F*** all about rugby. Leicester should be our bench mark not Saracens.

All that stuff may be annoying to some, but it obviously has nothing to do with how the team performs or is coached. Also it has little to do with the atmosphere. People complain about the band for instance but if the fans were actually making noise they would be fine. They don't hurt the atmosphere- you can only hear them because the crowd isn't really generating any atmosphere in the first place. The announcers are only on at halftime and nobody pays any attention to them anyway, and a wee note in the programme is easily ignored. If you want Leicester to be our bench mark you'd be better off having a word with the people coming through the gates.

Yes it is peripheral and no one is saying it impacts on how the team is coached.
The problem with our fans, and I say this waiting for the backlash, is that since our crowds have gone from 8,000 to 18,000 we have a very high % of 'supporters' who are totally ignorant about the game.
I have lost count of listening to people not knowing how points are scored, not having a clue about the most basic of rules (shouting offside in open play for instance).
Also people talking about anything but rugby and/or not being interested in Rugby at all - it is just a social event to go to the bar and get peed.

The announcers are representing Ulster and can be an embarrassment
I'll give you an example - at the Saracens the announcer made a pigs ear of the Vunipola's name and one other (du Plessis I think).
He couldn't even pronounce Herbst name - one of our own players
In addition that was the game we had 2 minutes silence for the tragic events in Paris (superbly adhered to by the crowd) - and you could hear stadium music in the background.
How disrespectful was that

These things make us look like stupid country bumkins

Munchkin wrote:I don't believe there are many teams that would turn Williams away right now. Not in his present form.

That made me smile, you think if that was true he would be going to Cardiff?

geoff999rugby wrote:The problem with our fans, and I say this waiting for the backlash, is that since our crowds have gone from 8,000 to 18,000 we have a very high % of 'supporters' who are totally ignorant about the game.
I have lost count of listening to people not knowing how points are scored, not having a clue about the most basic of rules (shouting offside in open play for instance).
Also people talking about anything but rugby and/or not being interested in Rugby at all - it is just a social event to go to the bar and get peed.

The announcers are representing Ulster and can be an embarrassment
I'll give you an example - at the Saracens the announcer made a pigs ear of the Vunipola's name and one other (du Plessis I think).
He couldn't even pronounce Herbst name - one of our own players
In addition that was the game we had 2 minutes silence for the tragic events in Paris (superbly adhered to by the crowd) - and you could hear stadium music in the background.
How disrespectful was that

These things make us look like stupid country bumkins

I was sitting beside a few Connacht fans the other week when Stephen Clements stumbled over a few of their players names and took about 5 mins to get his head around Adeolokun, they found that rather odd and amusing

Munchkin wrote:  
Disagree with you. Most of Williams games have been outstanding this season. Can't really think of the mediocre ones, unless you are thinking of his last game, in which he was trying to play through an injury, before being taken off during half-time and after receiving another injury. You did mention his being off form in that game a couple of times, post match, but didn't mention the fact that he was trying to play through injury. Tell the truth, and shame the Devil; you just don't like him
I don't believe there are many teams that would turn Williams away right now. Not in his present form.

He played plenty of ordinary games prior to the New Year.
I said he contributed nothing to that Cardiff game - I did no say he was off form, when it was pointed out he was injured I totally agreed that was why he contributed nothing.
I real like the bloke - having met him he is a totally engaging and likeable individual.
He has been our best backrower this year - trouble is the bar is so low that is not saying much.
The vast majority of senior teams in the NH, let alone the SH, would have no interest in him.
As Marty says that is why he is going to Cardiff

 

Munchkin wrote:  
Genuine question; what role does Logan play? Is the Academy and coaching staff his responsibility, or are others employed to ensure we get best possible coaching ticket? The final decisions may be down to him, but he was brought in to look after the commercial side, and that's something he has excelled in. I'm not a PR man for Logan either. He lays on the spin a bit thick, as this nonsense about two Test class players for each position shows. To be fair to Logan, he never promised that Ulster would be world beaters any time soon:

The CEO estimates it could take "10 or 15 years" for Ulster to get where it wants to be in terms of that pool of players coming through to the high performance level" (2013)


Things could be better right now though, and maybe he is too soft when it comes to applying the axe. He got rid of Anscombe, but how much of that was down to Doak and Clarke? The men that we would like replaced .....

One thing surely does stand in Logans favour, and that's the fact that he didn't simply replace Anscombe with Doak or Clarke. He could have done, just like Munster did with Foley, but he went to IRFU and they gave him a Kiss  

Logan leads the selection process for anyone taking a senior rugby role - he himself is not knowledgeable about the game.
He takes advice for people who are, or think they are.

Is the current estimate 10 to 15 years now ? - when he took over in 2010 it was going to be 5 to 10 years.
By his original estimate we should be top of the World by now or close to it - sorry but cowpat plays a big part in his pronouncements

He got rid of Anscombe because Dublin and Muller told him to. After Humphreys left he was like a bunny in the headlights and didn't know what to do - they forced his hand.
We were in a hole at that point, Doak was not considered ready to be permanent head coach, Dublin suggested Kiss and Logan jumped at it with both hands

Still don't agree with you. I think Williams had some very good games, leading up to the New Year. Surely 'contributing nothing', is much the same as saying poor form?
Nobody here knows how many clubs in the NH would take Williams. I would say quite a few, on present form. We don't know why he went to Cardiff. Maybe he was offered a very good deal, once it became known that he was in his last season with Ulster. Maybe he just wasn't on the radar, and maybe lasts seasons poor form had something to do with it. Who knows.
My comment about you not liking him was a bit tongue in cheek. Anyway, you are not going to agree that I'm right, so will leave it there

Logan loves the spin, no doubt.
I know Muller advised to get rid of Anscombe. Just not sure what role Doak or Clarke had in it, if any. Seems there was none then.
So would Doak, Clarke and Cunningham be the ones to advise Logan on selection? Just trying to figure out how difficult it would be to get rid of Clarke, and who really holds the power.

I go by this simple observation.

Our backs play has sometimes been meh over the last few years, sometimes excellent. Doak seems to be doing an alright job. Some fresh ideas would be good, but he hasn't disgraced himself in that department.

Our forwards play has totally disintegrated since Muller left. The open secret at the time was that he was effectively coaching the forwards. Under Allen Clarke, we have assumed all the hard bite and edge of a pack of Andrex puppies.

The home-produced coach that did do an excellent job, - Jonny Bell - is gone.

Agree with all you say, Don. Doakball wasn't very pretty, but I don't really see Doak as being an issue. I do question what has happened to our kicking game though?

Gloucester are going through a really bad spell. Maybe Bell will come back

People are lumping Doak and Clarke together as though they were twins, but the reality is closer to the opposite. I agree with Geoff's assessment from what I've heard as I know of a player who left Ulster solely because of Clarke. Doak OTOH generally receives good reports with players genuinely trying to play for him and believing they are progressing.

The inescapable fact is that changing the coaches does not change the players. Ulster have too many 'senior' players who aren't good enough, or past their best. The Ravens is a joke, and doesn't prepare players for the senior team. The Academy produces backs but destroys forwards.

The wider problems that fans won't address such as concentrating all the Ravens resources in say two UBL teams or changing the School's Cup to produce more players continue to be taboo topics that get ignored but if Ulster is to improve, they are the very foundation on which the future is built.

Munchkin wrote: Still don't agree with you. I think Williams had some very good games, leading up to the New Year.

He did, he has some mediocre ones as well

Munchkin wrote:Surely 'contributing nothing', is much the same as saying poor form? .

Nope it is just saying he contributed nothing to that game - he didn't.

Munchkin wrote:Nobody here knows how many clubs in the NH would take Williams. I would say quite a few, on present form. .

I think your kidding yourself and rating him way above from where he actually is.

Munchkin wrote:We don't know why he went to Cardiff. .

2 year contract. For someone of his age that is like gold dust

Munchkin wrote:So would Doak, Clarke and Cunningham be the ones to advise Logan on selection? Just trying to figure out how difficult it would be to get rid of Clarke, and who really holds the power.

Cunningham yes, the other two no.
A number of blazers will be advising/putting their oar in. IRFU will have a say too

The Great Aukster wrote:People are lumping Doak and Clarke together as though they were twins, but the reality is closer to the opposite..

Absolutely - Doak is a coach who was promoted too quickly and cant cope with the status he has.
Decent enough fella who could well come good with a bit more experience.

Clarke is a nasty piece of work and not even very good as a coach - I can only assume he has some compromising pictures of Logan and also some of the suit brigade in Dublin.

geoff999rugby wrote:

Munchkin wrote: Still don't agree with you. I think Williams had some very good games, leading up to the New Year.

He did, he has some mediocre ones as well

Munchkin wrote:Surely 'contributing nothing', is much the same as saying poor form? .

Nope it is just saying he contributed nothing to that game - he didn't.

Munchkin wrote:Nobody here knows how many clubs in the NH would take Williams. I would say quite a few, on present form. .

I think your kidding yourself and rating him way above from where he actually is.

Munchkin wrote:We don't know why he went to Cardiff. .

2 year contract. For someone of his age that is like gold dust

Munchkin wrote:So would Doak, Clarke and Cunningham be the ones to advise Logan on selection? Just trying to figure out how difficult it would be to get rid of Clarke, and who really holds the power.

Cunningham yes, the other two no.
A number of blazers will be advising/putting their oar in. IRFU will have a say too

Still don't agree with you, and no, I'm not kidding myself as to how good Williams has been for Ulster this season. That much is apparent.

So, the advice comes from Cunningham, the blazers, and IRFU. Makes sense, but makes it harder to understand why Clarke is still there. Hopefully we see that change in the near future, but no point in him moving without a suitable replacement, so maybe not until after next season, if it happens at all.

Seriously... lads...
what difference does it make how good Williams was?
WE weren't good enough this season with him, and we will be worse of without him now that Coetzee is severely delayed.

No point going round in circles on the matter.

There have been times during the year where players have shined - O'Connor surprised some, Reidy was very solid, Williams had a few stormers, McCloskey was the second coming, Gilroy showed some of his old sparkle.

But who cares. Our collective team didn't perform. We didn't work well together. Some players were bad bad bad, but even the good were not consistently good.

No point talking about the players abilities - it's clear as day - the gameplan and team spirit are letting the club down. Too many players have an attitude of "I can be solid, and alongside some of the great players we might do quite well"

What we need is every man in the club to believe that they are number 1, that they themselves can be the force that achieves success, not just content to think of themselves as 'extras' in the story.

I worry that the setup is not inspiring the players. I don't see it in their performances, I don't see hurt in their eyes when they lose. That is what annoys me most.

clivemcl wrote:Seriously... lads...
what difference does it make how good Williams was?
WE weren't good enough this season with him, and we will be worse of without him now that Coetzee is severely delayed.

No point going round in circles on the matter.

There have been times during the year where players have shined - O'Connor surprised some, Reidy was very solid, Williams had a few stormers, McCloskey was the second coming, Gilroy showed some of his old sparkle.

But who cares. Our collective team didn't perform. We didn't work well together. Some players were bad bad bad, but even the good were not consistently good.

No point talking about the players abilities - it's clear as day - the gameplan and team spirit are letting the club down. Too many players have an attitude of "I can be solid, and alongside some of the great players we might do quite well"

What we need is every man in the club to believe that they are number 1, that they themselves can be the force that achieves success, not just content to think of themselves as 'extras' in the story.

I worry that the setup is not inspiring the players. I don't see it in their performances, I don't see hurt in their eyes when they lose. That is what annoys me most.

It's the internet. Of course it matters

clivemcl wrote:  Seriously... lads...
what difference does it make how good Williams was?

Just a couple of fans having a friendly disagreement..

Besides that we debated a number of other important points

clivemcl wrote: team spirit.. letting the club down. Too many players have an attitude of "I can be solid, and alongside some of the great players we might do quite well"

What we need is every man in the club to believe that they are number 1, that they themselves can be the force that achieves success, not just content to think of themselves as 'extras' in the story.

I worry that the setup is not inspiring the players. I don't see it in their performances, I don't see hurt in their eyes when they lose. That is what annoys me most.  

I don't know what you are looking at but attitude and effort are not the issue.
Look at the way we defend, for the most part that has been good.
This set of players do care

What is at issue is the poor leadership and the lack of ability.
Kiss, hopefully, will be allowed to address the former and backrow apart we may just have enough to compete elsewhere (and an abundance at 12,13,15)
The issue is without the two new players we need in the backrow we are screwed

Munchkin wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:

Notch wrote:We need a Sniper in the stands to deal with Clarke at this stage.

Well it is Belfast surely can't be that hard to find someone who's handy with a rifle lol

Already sorted

He looks like he could do the job

marty2086 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:The problem with our fans, and I say this waiting for the backlash, is that since our crowds have gone from 8,000 to 18,000 we have a very high % of 'supporters' who are totally ignorant about the game.
I have lost count of listening to people not knowing how points are scored, not having a clue about the most basic of rules (shouting offside in open play for instance).
Also people talking about anything but rugby and/or not being interested in Rugby at all - it is just a social event to go to the bar and get peed.

The announcers are representing Ulster and can be an embarrassment
I'll give you an example - at the Saracens the announcer made a pigs ear of the Vunipola's name and one other (du Plessis I think).
He couldn't even pronounce Herbst name - one of our own players
In addition that was the game we had 2 minutes silence for the tragic events in Paris (superbly adhered to by the crowd) - and you could hear stadium music in the background.
How disrespectful was that

These things make us look like stupid country bumkins

I was sitting beside a few Connacht fans the other week when Stephen Clements stumbled over a few of their players names and took about 5 mins to get his head around Adeolokun, they found that rather odd and amusing

I remember the game Geoff is talking about he messed up just about every saracens player, he screwed up herbst and he completely forgot Roger Wilson's name entirely. Now I know most of us forget Roger Wilson is playing but that was no excuse.
I also have heard plenty to make me doubt the true knowledge of some people and know plenty of people who have been who genuinely have never had an interest in rugby, however there is no way to stop people coming you can't just ask them a set of rugby questions at the gate lol
The announcers and all could be changed at least have a proper announcer do the teams line ups bit. The one thing that bugs me is the booing during kicks, I don't like how that has crept in

Sam Windsor will be with us another year

That leaves the following to find out:

Peter Browne
Paul Rowley
Ruaidhrí Murphy
Willie Faloon
Bronson Ross
Clive Ross
Conor Joyce

To be clear the fate of all these individuals has been decided I just don't know what it is

Sigh.

Browne and the two Rosses are the only ones I'd hope we retain.

I don't think Browne or Clive Ross are in any danger, just not heard anything.

Murphy will go because of his inflated salary either that or accept a 1/3rd of what he is getting now

Rowley - depends whether, the now fading, talk of a SH from Connacht come good or not.
If we get someone he goes, if we don't he stays.

Faloon - depends on injury assessment pure and simple

Ross - has to be in doubt with Ah You signing and Simpson impressing folk

Joyce - will he be given yet another year to show he is good enough or will they decide he is not going to make it
He will be 23 at the start of next year

What the Winsor resigning does show is McPhillips and Herron not seriously being considered for next year
The rule of thumb appears to be 4 players in the squad for Hooker, SH and FH and minimum of 3 for both Prop positions.
So not hard to work out where we are

Hooker - Best, Herring, Andrew, Murphy
SH - Pienaer, Marshall, Shanahan, Rowley or ANOther
FH - Jackson, Nelson, Olding, Windsor
LH - McCall, Black, Warwick
TH - Herbst, AH You, Lutton, (Warwick) (Ross)

geoff999rugby wrote:
Joyce - will he be given yet another year to show he is good enough or will they decide he is not going to make it
He will be 23 at the start of next year

Is that a fingers crossed and hope he finally comes good move or are we just in dire need of backrows and hes cheap and IQ?

All of those, collectively, will probably get him another year his performances don't deserve

(15-9): J Payne; T Bowe, L Marshall, S Olding, C Gilroy; P Jackson, R Pienaar;
(1-8): C Black, R Best (captain), R Lutton, P Browne, F van der Merwe, I Henderson, S Reidy, R Wilson;
(16-23): R Herring, K McCall, A Warwick, R Diack, C Henry, P Marshall, D Cave, R Scholes.

You just beat me to it Geoff.

That's a team selection that should get the job done with relative ease. 5 points and no excuses.

Good team. Olding is flyhalf cover presumably.

However I predict panic and white line fever when we're not three tries up after ten minutes.

Trimble being rested, I hope.

Confident of a win. Not super confident of a 5 point win though.

Trimble is ill apparently. Hopefully not the return of the Ulster virus.

Munchkin wrote:Trimble being rested, I hope.

Confident of a win. Not super confident of a 5 point win though.

With some of the experience Ulster have available and Olding, Marshall and Payne not to mention Bowe coming back when hes usually good for a try, along with a strong bench I fancy Ulsters chances.

If Glasgow can win and deny Scarlets any BPs, a play off place is Ulsters to lose

The Ulster virus .... white line fever

So our sick/injury list is Herbst, Tuohy, O'Connor, Williams, McCloskey, Nelson, Trimble and Ludik. Is Herbst out for the rest of season? Could do with him, O'Connor, Williams and McCloskey back for the Leinster game.

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Trimble being rested, I hope.

Confident of a win. Not super confident of a 5 point win though.

With some of the experience Ulster have available and Olding, Marshall and Payne not to mention Bowe coming back when hes usually good for a try, along with a strong bench I fancy Ulsters chances.

If Glasgow can win and deny Scarlets any BPs, a play off place is Ulsters to lose

I'm not expecting too much from Bowe in his first game back, although the 5 point are possible. Quietly confident, but not super confident, considering we couldn't manage a try against a 13 man Connacht

A Scarlets loss would probably be the best outcome for us, but Glasgow could lose to both Scarlets and Connacht, and we could pip them.

Think you're being a bit too ambitious, Glasgow have a home game against Zebre still to come so that'd leave them on 66 and can't see Ulster taking more than 10 points from the last 3 games as we have yet to be consistent for 80 mins never mind 2 games so cant see us beating Leinster and Ospreys.

Think Ospreys will be looking to finish on a high and lay down a marker for next season

Agreed - the 4th place is up for grabs though

Connacht, Leinster and Glasgow will surely be there but who joins them is very open

marty2086 wrote:Think you're being a bit too ambitious, Glasgow have a home game against Zebre still to come so that'd leave them on 66 and can't see Ulster taking more than 10 points from the last 3 games as we have yet to be consistent for 80 mins never mind 2 games so cant see us beating Leinster and Ospreys.

Think Ospreys will be looking to finish on a high and lay down a marker for next season

It's about momentum. If we beat Leinster at Ravenhill and beat Zebre well we stand a great chance of being fourth going into the final weekend and that is a huge advantage.

Win well and see Scarlets lose and we know exactly what we need to do to, and its in our hands. Doesn't guarantee we can/will do it but we know it's doable.

marty2086 wrote:Think you're being a bit too ambitious, Glasgow have a home game against Zebre still to come so that'd leave them on 66 and can't see Ulster taking more than 10 points from the last 3 games as we have yet to be consistent for 80 mins never mind 2 games so cant see us beating Leinster and Ospreys.

Think Ospreys will be looking to finish on a high and lay down a marker for next season

Well, it's not what I think will happen, but if Scarlets can put Glasgow away, if Connacht do the same and we win our next three, then we can pip Glasgow. Overtaking Scarlets is the more likely route to a top 4 though. Easier said than done. Scarlets can win their game against Glasgow.

Nice show and go from Jackson to create the first try.

It's hard not to get cynical watching Ulster. We concede a try from a rolling maul, but it all comes from Gilroy giving away a penalty for being offside in the kick chase. We were under no pressure in clearing our lines.

It's always really, really basic things that undermine us.

So far we're mixing moments of genuine class with absolutely suicidal mistakes. Standard Ulster away performance then.

Just happy we have the 5 points before half-time.

Munchkin wrote:Just happy we have the 5 points before half-time.

You've just went and jinxed it now

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Just happy we have the 5 points before half-time.

You've just went and jinxed it now

oops, sorry

yaay!

Job done in Italy for ye lads, mixed bag but never in doubt. Great to see Tommy Bowe back, and Payne again showing his best position is 15.

Sloppy at times in the first half, but terrible second half. As you say though, job done. We got the 5 points and now we need to beat Leinster at home. Easy