6N 2016: England v Wales, 12 March

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ENGLAND v WALES
12 March 2016
KO: 16:00 GMT
Twickenham, London

Live on ITV, RTE, SC4, FR2, DMAX / BBC (H)

Referee: Craig Joubert (South Africa)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

119 Played 119
53 Won 54
12 Drawn 12
54 Lost 53
1,428 Points 1,371

B. Recent Form

26 September 2015: Twickenham, London
25 – 28 to Wales
2015 Rugby World Cup Pool A

6 February 2015: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
16 – 21 to England
2015 Six Nations

9 March 2014: Twickenham Stadium, London
29 – 18 to England
2014 Six Nations

16 March 2013: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
30 – 3 to Wales
2013 Six Nations

25 February 2012: Twickenham Stadium, London
12 – 19 to Wales
2012 Six Nations

13 August 2011: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
19 – 9 to Wales
2011 Rugby World Cup warm up test

6 August 2011: Twickenham, London
23 – 19 to England
2011 Rugby World Cup warm up test

C. Teams

ENGLAND

[tbc]

WALES

[tbc]

TightHEAD wrote:3 tries to 1 so I guess Wales will dine-out on that for a while!

Just for the record I didn't think North was in touch at the end. Ouch!

Marshes wrote:Well done England.

Also on Francis thing it seems accidental. Why is there such a furore for making contact with the face by hands a la Francis, but not making contact with the face by boot a la Brown?

Because kicking the ball in the ruck is allowed even if it's dangerous. You're not allowed to make contact with the face and if this results in contact with the eye area you will be deemed reckless. They're completely different things (from the IRB discipline point of view).

Will Gatland make many changes for next week?

yappysnap wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:If that was a red card for Francis (didn't even make contact with the eye), it should have been a lifetime ban for Brown lol.

What is your problem Vince?

Your Scottish, but always seem to be on threads involving England jumping on any chance to slate. You've been going on about that Brown boot for ages. Give it a rest it's Frak boring

He's got a point though, a unintentional scrape against a nose gets a possible 10 week ban whereas an unintentional boot in the head gets nothing.

Surely a kick in the head can cause more damage than a cut to a nose

Seagultaf wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Except they were two different things. One was allowed by the laws. One isn't. You may not like that, which is obviously fine, but at doesn't change the fact. The only way Francis is going to get off is if he only made contact with Cole's nose, like Flatman suggested, although it didn't look like that.

Hammer the Laws are perfectly clear, kicking a player is foul play.

Both incidents were serious reckless play, however I think Francis should be cited and banned as I also thought should have happened to Brown.

He didn't kick him. He made contact with his head but he was kicking the ball. It's the same difference has handing someone off and punching them.

Raven, if it was against the nose nothing will come of it. He'll only get banned if he contacted the eye area.

TightHEAD wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:3 tries to 1 so I guess Wales will dine-out on that for a while!

Just for the record I didn't think North was in touch at the end. Ouch!

Neither did I, but the touch judge flagged and England stopped making a simple run in unopposed

Surely a citing for Marler coming up too? https://twitter.com/trevormurphy73/status/708690727212032000

HammerofThunor wrote:

Seagultaf wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Except they were two different things. One was allowed by the laws. One isn't. You may not like that, which is obviously fine, but at doesn't change the fact. The only way Francis is going to get off is if he only made contact with Cole's nose, like Flatman suggested, although it didn't look like that.

Hammer the Laws are perfectly clear, kicking a player is foul play.

Both incidents were serious reckless play, however I think Francis should be cited and banned as I also thought should have happened to Brown.

He didn't kick him. He made contact with his head but he was kicking the ball. It's the same difference has handing someone off and punching them.

Raven, it was against the nose nothing will come of it. He'll only get banned if he contacted the eye area.

We have been here before, the difference is neither the ref, TMO or the citing panel saw anything wrong with the Brown incident, the ref and TMO did see something wrong with Francis raking his fingers across Coles' eyes. We await the citing panels verdict. As I said previously Hartley got called a thug and a lot worse for a similar thing plus an 8 week ban.

JDizzle wrote:Surely a citing for Marler coming up too? https://twitter.com/trevormurphy73/status/708690727212032000

Just his forward momentum, nothing in it.

Oh, I though that was going to be a yellow to Marler. I don't think it was a punch. A forearm smash if you want to be hyperbolic. An aggressive push if you don't. The sort of strike that often happens but rarely focuses on. Since it has been I would be surprised if cited and banned for a week or two. Edit: if that does happen it should have been a red card.

JDizzle wrote:Surely a citing for Marler coming up too? https://twitter.com/trevormurphy73/status/708690727212032000

Yeah that's a cheap shot, saw that when they were reviewing the Cole disallowed try.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

Seagultaf wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Except they were two different things. One was allowed by the laws. One isn't. You may not like that, which is obviously fine, but at doesn't change the fact. The only way Francis is going to get off is if he only made contact with Cole's nose, like Flatman suggested, although it didn't look like that.

Hammer the Laws are perfectly clear, kicking a player is foul play.

Both incidents were serious reckless play, however I think Francis should be cited and banned as I also thought should have happened to Brown.

He didn't kick him. He made contact with his head but he was kicking the ball. It's the same difference has handing someone off and punching them.

Raven, it was against the nose nothing will come of it. He'll only get banned if he contacted the eye area.

We have been here before, the difference is neither the ref, TMO or the citing panel saw anything wrong with the Brown incident, the ref and TMO did see something wrong with Francis raking his fingers across Coles' eyes. We await the citing panels verdict. As I said previously Hartley got called a thug and a lot worse for a similar thing plus an 8 week ban.

With all due respect, that's not exactly Harley's only misdemeanour is it? That's not the only reason he gets called a thug

True Raven wrote:

JDizzle wrote:Surely a citing for Marler coming up too? https://twitter.com/trevormurphy73/status/708690727212032000

Yeah that's a cheap shot, saw that when they were reviewing the Cole disallowed try.  

What a try it was, denied by his own hand!

JDizzle wrote:Surely a citing for Marler coming up too? https://twitter.com/trevormurphy73/status/708690727212032000

That's understandable, he was getting his arse handled to him on a plate by Sampson Lee.

yappysnap wrote:Will Gatland make many changes for next week?

I think he should but whether he will or not is another matter and also what can we learn from those changes given I reckon Italy will be dead on their feet from the off.

I would start Charteris and Webb and would love to see Amos and Moriarty given a run out but very much doubt that will happen.

A slow motion replay making nothing look like something, Francis should have been off and deserves a lengthy ban.

JDizzle wrote:Surely a citing for Marler coming up too? https://twitter.com/trevormurphy73/status/708690727212032000

Already said about him striking. Funny the tmo didn't look at that on the last replays of the try call.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Will Gatland make many changes for next week?

I think he should but whether he will or not is another matter and also what can we learn from those changes given I reckon Italy will be dead on their feet from the off.

I would start Charteris and Webb and would love to see Amos and Moriarty given a run out but very much doubt that will happen.

Start with Preistland he got Wales moving.

TightHEAD wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Will Gatland make many changes for next week?

I think he should but whether he will or not is another matter and also what can we learn from those changes given I reckon Italy will be dead on their feet from the off.

I would start Charteris and Webb and would love to see Amos and Moriarty given a run out but very much doubt that will happen.

Start with Preistland he got Wales moving.

That was Webb

Well played England I'll repeat that,"WELL PLAYED ENGLAND".We were fortunate to be only 16 points down at half-time.Lack of composure,brainless kicking,stupid penalties,missed tackles,lost lineouts and loss of breakdown battle.The last 20 minutes just demonstrated how poor our first half was.It's not the first time this has happened.Quite a few reputations expired at Twickers today.AWJ and Bradley D are our worst lock combination and Scott Baldwin on current form should never be keeping Ken O out of the team. Neither Biggar nor Warburton warrant selection on today's performance.But this isn't NZ so we'll get more of the same.Our trip to NZ is looking more worrying by the match.Well played England.I'm off to the pub to take the verbal stick from the English supporters.

TightHEAD wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Will Gatland make many changes for next week?

I think he should but whether he will or not is another matter and also what can we learn from those changes given I reckon Italy will be dead on their feet from the off.

I would start Charteris and Webb and would love to see Amos and Moriarty given a run out but very much doubt that will happen.

Start with Preistland he got Wales moving.

It wouldn't be a bad call, I have always said that the way he plays as in a lot flatter than Biggar means that players have to run onto the ball and at speed rather than a lot deeper when Biggar is playing.

Priestland is slowly getting his confidence back, he has a way to go before back to where he was in 2011/12 if indeed he can get back to that level but he's heading in the right direction at least.

VinceWLB wrote:

JDizzle wrote:Surely a citing for Marler coming up too? https://twitter.com/trevormurphy73/status/708690727212032000

That's understandable, he was getting his arse handled to him on a plate by Sampson Lee.

And yet was still on the winning team...

Give it a rest Vince.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Will Gatland make many changes for next week?

I think he should but whether he will or not is another matter and also what can we learn from those changes given I reckon Italy will be dead on their feet from the off.

I would start Charteris and Webb and would love to see Amos and Moriarty given a run out but very much doubt that will happen.

Start with Preistland he got Wales moving.

It wouldn't be a bad call, I have always said that the way he plays as in a lot flatter than Biggar means that players have to run onto the ball and at speed rather than a lot deeper when Biggar is playing.

Priestland is slowly getting his confidence back, he has a way to go before back to where he was in 2011/12 if indeed he can get back to that level but he's heading in the right direction at least.

I am a Priest fan, but Biggar is the better fly half. That said I wish Gats brought priest on earlier in a make or break move, as Biggar's cool head wasn't needed in a poop or bust situation.

exile jack wrote:Well played England I'll repeat that,"WELL PLAYED ENGLAND".We were fortunate to be only 16 points down at half-time.Lack of composure,brainless kicking,stupid penalties,missed tackles,lost lineouts and loss of breakdown battle.The last 20 minutes just demonstrated how poor our first half was.It's not the first time this has happened.Quite a few reputations expired at Twickers today.AWJ and Bradley D are our worst lock combination and Scott Baldwin on current form should never be keeping Ken O out of the team. Neither Biggar nor Warburton warrant selection on today's performance.But this isn't NZ so we'll get more of the same.Our trip to NZ is looking more worrying by the match.Well played England.I'm off to the pub to take the verbal stick from the English supporters.

Thing is though you have to look at more than just one performance. Baldwin has really raised his game and Davies had a very very good game v France but both were poor today in a poor team effort. Warburton struggled but then Tipuric done nothing when he came on either.

You could argue the case that now we cant win the championship does he totally changed the side for next week or just tinker with it and then start phasing players in and out in New Zealand.

Personally I would go with

Same front row
Bring Charteris in to 2nd row
Leave backrow unless Warburton ruled out which seems good chance
Start Webb
Start Amos

Bring Moriarty on to the bench and I wouldn't be too upset if he started Priestland.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Will Gatland make many changes for next week?

I think he should but whether he will or not is another matter and also what can we learn from those changes given I reckon Italy will be dead on their feet from the off.

I would start Charteris and Webb and would love to see Amos and Moriarty given a run out but very much doubt that will happen.

Start with Preistland he got Wales moving.

It wouldn't be a bad call, I have always said that the way he plays as in a lot flatter than Biggar means that players have to run onto the ball and at speed rather than a lot deeper when Biggar is playing.

Priestland is slowly getting his confidence back, he has a way to go before back to where he was in 2011/12 if indeed he can get back to that level but he's heading in the right direction at least.

I am a Priest fan, but Biggar is the better fly half.  That said I wish Gats brought priest on earlier in a make or break move, as Biggar's cool head wasn't needed in a poop or bust situation.

SS,

Agree Biggar is the better safe option but as you said it was poop or bust and Priestland is getting some decent form back.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

exile jack wrote:Well played England I'll repeat that,"WELL PLAYED ENGLAND".We were fortunate to be only 16 points down at half-time.Lack of composure,brainless kicking,stupid penalties,missed tackles,lost lineouts and loss of breakdown battle.The last 20 minutes just demonstrated how poor our first half was.It's not the first time this has happened.Quite a few reputations expired at Twickers today.AWJ and Bradley D are our worst lock combination and Scott Baldwin on current form should never be keeping Ken O out of the team. Neither Biggar nor Warburton warrant selection on today's performance.But this isn't NZ so we'll get more of the same.Our trip to NZ is looking more worrying by the match.Well played England.I'm off to the pub to take the verbal stick from the English supporters.

Thing is though you have to look at more than just one performance.  Baldwin has really raised his game and Davies had a very very good game v France but both were poor today in a poor team effort.  Warburton struggled but then Tipuric done nothing when he came on either.

You could argue the case that now we cant win the championship does he totally changed the side for next week or just tinker with it and then start phasing players in and out in New Zealand.

Personally I would go with

Same front row
Bring Charteris in to 2nd row
Leave backrow unless Warburton ruled out which seems good chance
Start Webb
Start Amos

Bring Moriarty on to the bench and I wouldn't be too upset if he started Priestland.

I agree, but I'd go Webb and Biggar to start, Cawdor and Priest on the bench (or vice versa) as they are tried and tested partnerships.

Let's hope the Sweaties can do us a favour tomorrow but the want a SLAM

TightHEAD wrote:Let's hope the Sweaties can do us a favour tomorrow but the want a SLAM

??

Who are the?

Sweaty socks , the jocks!

Biggest difference today was coaches and composure, Eddie Jones got the game plan right and even stated before the game they where going to target Biggar. It's no coincidence the game changed completely when Rhys came on and Wales started playing fast and flat.
The final score flattered Wales as England dominated that game for 72 mins.

TightHEAD wrote:Sweaty socks , the jocks!

Do you mean Scotland?

Why did AWJ go offf? was it due to injuie or a normal sub?

2ndtimeround wrote:Biggest difference today was coaches and composure, Eddie Jones got the game plan right and even stated before the game they where going to target Biggar. It's no coincidence the game changed completely when Rhys came on and Wales started playing fast and flat.
The final score flattered Wales as England dominated that game for 72 mins.

I said they should target Biggar, he was taken out of the game by England, me and Eddie are on the same page if no one else is.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Will Gatland make many changes for next week?

I think he should but whether he will or not is another matter and also what can we learn from those changes given I reckon Italy will be dead on their feet from the off.

I would start Charteris and Webb and would love to see Amos and Moriarty given a run out but very much doubt that will happen.

Start with Preistland he got Wales moving.

It wouldn't be a bad call, I have always said that the way he plays as in a lot flatter than Biggar means that players have to run onto the ball and at speed rather than a lot deeper when Biggar is playing.

Priestland is slowly getting his confidence back, he has a way to go before back to where he was in 2011/12 if indeed he can get back to that level but he's heading in the right direction at least.

Last season the Welsh coaching team had got Biggar playing far flatter and it made him a far better player. Since being injured against Ireland he has started standing much deeper, also taking the ball standing still. He needs to sort out his game.

I would start Amos, Webb ( if fit enough), Owen and Charteris against Italy. If Warburton is injured then Tipuric to start with probably Moriarty on the bench, although Cubby Davies may get a look in?

yappysnap wrote:Will Gatland make many changes for next week?

No it's not his style, he will tell the players they let Wales down, tell them they have to redeem themselves and tell them if they don't their Wales careers are over. The players will come out all guns blazing and will probably batter Italy.

If only tom James was playing, he showed true endeavour and grit and was dropped for one of Gats warrenball favourites, Cuthbutt.

Amos we need if you score tries in that dragons team, you must be ok.

Anyone heard how warbs is?

Haven't read back through the thread, but I will assume there will be apologists. Francis deserves a long break. It is outrageous. He rakes his Frak fingers across Cole's eyes and doesn't even get a yellow. He was nowhere Frak near the ball. The useless git of a TMO can officiate on a neckroll but not a blatant eye gouge? joke.What did the dirty bustard think he was clawing at? score flattered Wales to a huge degree. England don't win the slam now, never will.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Seagultaf wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Except they were two different things. One was allowed by the laws. One isn't. You may not like that, which is obviously fine, but at doesn't change the fact. The only way Francis is going to get off is if he only made contact with Cole's nose, like Flatman suggested, although it didn't look like that.

Hammer the Laws are perfectly clear, kicking a player is foul play.

Both incidents were serious reckless play, however I think Francis should be cited and banned as I also thought should have happened to Brown.

He didn't kick him. He made contact with his head but he was kicking the ball. It's the same difference has handing someone off and punching them.

Raven, if it was against the nose nothing will come of it. He'll only get banned if he contacted the eye area.

Hammer he swung his foot and made contact with the 9s face, I think that's called a kick? Also if you go to hand someone off with a closed fist and hit them, I think you would expect that to be called a punch, which I would expect to be a card. The Laws of the game do not mention intent, but officials are now adding their own interpretations to the Laws which is what is causing all the confusion.

I think that there should be a much harder line on the so called unintentional foul play, because if it isn't then someone will get seriously hurt, blinded or worse. The opportunity to do this was there with Brown, but they blew it, Francis (unfortunately for him) should now pay the price.

Francis was lucky not to see yellow at the very least, how many camera angles does a TMO need to see what everyone else saw with one. It was silly and so unnecessary Wales had the penalty and Cole was heading to the bin.

Hope his team mates have a word with him.

Genuine question, Dan Cole gets sin binned for something that happened after the eye rake, the penalty is reversed which surely means his sin binning offence technically didn't happen.

At the end of the day it wasn't Wales's turn to deny England a slam. That honour obviously belongs to France this time. Perennial chokers after all. ;-)

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Genuine question, Dan Cole gets sin binned for something that happened after the eye rake, the penalty is reversed which surely means his sin binning offence technically didn't happen.

Now you have the kind of argument that makes lawyers rich men

Cumbrian wrote:Haven't read back through the thread, but I will assume there will be apologists. Francis deserves a long break. It is outrageous. He rakes his Frak fingers across Cole's eyes and doesn't even get a yellow. He was nowhere Frak near the ball. The useless git of a TMO can officiate on a neckroll but not a blatant eye gouge?  joke.What did the dirty bustard think he was clawing at? score flattered Wales to a huge degree. England don't win the slam now, never will.

I agree, perhaps not quite so angrily, but I agree

You could see that Joubert completely did not want to make the call either, looked terrified.

If a humble neutral (Irish) can intrude on this discussion, England should be concerned that having about 65% of possession and the vast amount of territory they still scored only the one try while a team they had dominated physically for the whole game scored three tries. England will need to be a lot more clinical as they progress.

Like most people thought Itoje was great - Kruis too, Haskell gave away his usual stupid penos, Ben Youngs passing is too slow, Ford was poor, defence for Faletau's try very poor too Also shows that Billy V can be stopped if people tackle him low around the ankles.

No question England deserve to be top of the table but there are still lots of glitches to be sorted out.

Oh and most people over here (and the entire RTE panel which includes Conor O'Shea and Shane Horgan) believe Francis should have got a red card for the gouge on Cole.

Thought Joubert was as bad as I expected him to be. Contrast between Joubert and the young Aussie ref in the Ireland-Italy game was glaring - never heard of this Aussie ref before but for his international game in the NH thought he was excellent. Not perfect, but very good - clear in communicating with the teams and above all else consistent. More of him please.

TightHEAD wrote:If only tom James was playing, he showed true endeavour and grit and was dropped for one of Gats warrenball favourites, Cuthbutt.

Really? I don't think James done anything to warrant keeping his place, Amos should be in ahead of both of them.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:If only tom James was playing, he showed true endeavour and grit and was dropped for one of Gats warrenball favourites, Cuthbutt.

Really? I don't think James done anything to warrant keeping his place, Amos should be in ahead of both of them.

Least he got one bite.

Joubert was poor in general come scrum time, penalising Cole when Evans was boring in and vice versa, seemed to be just guessing who was infringing. There was also the time Vunipola went down and he reset the scrum instead of a clear Welsh penalty.