Lions 2017

First topic message reminder :

I understand and respect all the arguments against this kind of post 18 months before but the proper journalists are all having a so we might as well. It happens after every tournament.

For what it's worth I'd pick:

1. Marler
2. Hartley
3. Nel
4. J. Gray
5. AW Jones
6. Faletau
7. Warburton
8. Vunipola
9. Webb
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Henshaw
13. Joseph
14. Watson
15. Hogg

16. McGrath
17. MacInally
18. Lee
19. Itoje
20. Stander
21. Youngs
22. Biggar
23. Halfpenny

Rugby Fan wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:... the record books will show he won a Lions tour...

They certainly will, and a win is always to be celebrated. However, one peculiarity about Lions tours is that they are always remembered for more than the result. That's one reason 2009 is remembered fondly despite being a loss. Gatland's tour is an oddball in that success on the pitch still left Ireland supporters unhappy.

Fixed that for you.

PS - were all supporters happy in 2009? In 2005? 2001? If I remember rightly, the answer is no, which makes me wonder why the stylish winning tour headed by Gatland is the one to get bitched at the most. Personally I think it's because people dislike the Welsh, where-as Gatland backed them to do the job, which they duly did.

mikey_dragon wrote:...makes me wonder why the stylish winning tour headed by Gatland is the one to get bitched at the most...

It isn't. Hands down, 2005 wins that accolade.

I'd put 1983, 2001, 1993 and 1977 ahead of 2013 too, in the griping stakes.

LondonTiger wrote:I am amazed BODGate is still being discussed.

Perhaps if Irish fans could accept he was not playing well enough and Welsh fans could accept the manner in which Gatloand chose to drop him, while lookingblike a smug Tory politician announcing massive job cuts in Port talbort,  was unnaceptable - well then we could move on.

Complaining about Warren Gatland being smug isn't too far removed from complaining that 101 Dalmations has got a lot of bloody dogs in it.

mikey_dragon wrote:I watched some scenes from this tour earlier where Hibbard gave Zebo a fine - the one where he had to call Rob Penney and talk about the Munster captaincy. It was then that it clicked for me, that Sin was a massive liar when he said the Welsh players weren't being sociable on tour.

We met a few from all countries and they were all sociable and when we did see them out and about they were always mixed well. Some people will only see what they want to see though Mikey.

LondonTiger wrote:I am amazed BODGate is still being discussed.

Perhaps if Irish fans could accept he was not playing well enough and Welsh fans could accept the manner in which Gatloand chose to drop him, while lookingblike a smug Tory politician announcing massive job cuts in Port talbort,  was unnaceptable - well then we could move on.

On here you will notice there is one fan still fighting about it, who isn't taken very seriously by other Irish fans.

lostinwales wrote:Tuilagi was part crocked at the time so wasn't really/ should not have been an option although he had played very well alongside BOD earlier in the tour.

As has often been said (and seemingly often forgotten) dropping BOD for JD wasn't the decisive factor in the 3rd test

So was Tommy Bowe and Roberts was rushed back. Tualagi was fit enough to make the bench for the last test.

LondonTiger wrote:I am amazed BODGate is still being discussed.

Perhaps if Irish fans could accept he was not playing well enough and Welsh fans could accept the manner in which Gatloand chose to drop him, while lookingblike a smug Tory politician announcing massive job cuts in Port talbort,  was unnaceptable - well then we could move on.

BOD was playing better than JD (4/10 for 2nd test in Guardian). BOD got 7/10. BOD was playing better than both Tualagi & Roberts as well (and for the record, BOD frequently played 12, just wearing a 13 jersey).

George Carlin wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:I am amazed BODGate is still being discussed.

Perhaps if Irish fans could accept he was not playing well enough and Welsh fans could accept the manner in which Gatloand chose to drop him, while lookingblike a smug Tory politician announcing massive job cuts in Port talbort,  was unnaceptable - well then we could move on.

Complaining about Warren Gatland being smug isn't too far removed from complaining that 101 Dalmations has got a lot of bloody dogs in it.

and I always thought it was a film about a Croatian Brothel.

Oh hang on, your analogy still works.

While on the Lions, don't know how many of you will have seen this, but Zebo from the last tour, cracked me up:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TcY6rAoJTKc

mikey_dragon wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:... the record books will show he won a Lions tour...

They certainly will, and a win is always to be celebrated. However, one peculiarity about Lions tours is that they are always remembered for more than the result. That's one reason 2009 is remembered fondly despite being a loss. Gatland's tour is an oddball in that success on the pitch still left Ireland supporters unhappy.

Fixed that for you.

PS - were all supporters happy in 2009? In 2005? 2001? If I remember rightly, the answer is no, which makes me wonder why the stylish winning tour headed by Gatland is the one to get bitched at the most. Personally I think it's because people dislike the Welsh, where-as Gatland backed them to do the job, which they duly did.

Don't dislike the Welsh. 2013 Lions should have been a winning tour and indeed it was - Gatland isn't a coaching genius, it was not a vintage Australia team.

Gatland could have picked BOD, made numerous other selections instead and they would have still likely won.

Lions also had a mediocre coaching set up. Didn't a jot of difference. Farrell and Howley aren't particularly good coaches yet Lions winning coaches.... I don't rate Rowntree too highly either.

What I've found disappointing about Gatland and Wales is that despite having 10 players who beat Australia in the 3rd test, they still cannot beat Australia on their own.

You would think that the confidence should be there. Australia are a good side but Wales have a mental block they need to get rid of.

Still believe coaching change needed for Wales if they are to improve.

Beshocked all conjecture from you as usual. NZ and SA put similar scores on Aus that year, so what more could the Lions do...

You might be disappointed at that, but I'm personally disappointed at the fact England can't beat SA - I was also disappointed that up to now England couldn't win a 6N, they've only won it now because of injuries to Ireland, with an out of sorts France and Wales still in the mix.

Agreed Beshocked - failure to make more headway against the SH teams is the Achilles Heel in Gatland's otherwise stellar coaching record.

Still, I've yet to hear of a better candidate to take Wales forward. If Dai Young can win a couple of things with Wasps this season/next, then he'd have a good case (and I'd suggest that his fellow Wasps coaches, including Lee Blackett, go with him), but it depends on how Gatland gets on in the Summer Tests, AIs and next 6 Nations.

I wouldn't have an issue with Gatland if he weren't the current Welsh coach, I'd much prefer someone with a bit of distance and neutrality.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I wouldn't have an issue with Gatland if he weren't the current Welsh coach, I'd much prefer someone with a bit of distance and neutrality.

Who?

Not bothered, anyone who wants it and not with a national team.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not bothered, anyone who wants it and not with a national team.

That's the most compelling anti-Gatland case thus far.....

I'd like the job and am currently not with a national team. Can I do it?

Not bothered in the sense of I don't have a strong preference for anyone in rugby. Think we've seen that when you have those close links it's too easy to ignore better players and go with what you know. The Lions shouldn't be about that.

Apologies, I should have set out my manifesto:

- I promise to divide the squad equally between Wales, Ireland and England, just to keep everyone that matters happy.
- I promise to lead an "old school" tour, with drinking games played on a daily basis and have the players bond regularly.
- I will ensure all the legends and popular players make the Test XV, regardless of whether I think it'll help us win or not (AWJ will be captain by the way, Best will be vice captain and Murray and Sexton/Webb and Biggar will get 40 minutes each - can't say fairer than that).
- Itoje will star. I don't want the aftermath of the tour to be spent arguing with Beshocked!
- As coach I will issue a full and frank apology on behalf of the Lions for so comprehensively winning that 3rd Test in 2013 and sealing the Lions' first series win in 16 years by a record margin. The coaching was a shambles. This apology will be delivered to Keith Wood personally on bended knee.
- I promise not to worry about winning, as that is against the ethos of the Lions and no-one cares about that anyway.

When do I start.

What relevant experience will you bring to the job fes?

No 7&1/2 wrote:What relevant experience will you bring to the job fes?

I drink a lot and have won nothing. I'm also considered by my friends and foes alike as a man of compromise, easily swayed by the opinions of others. Oh, and I should be free next summer as well. I see myself as more of a manager than a coach anyway.....

Much better inteview than Gatland granted. In all seriousness it will be Gatland again, just hope he goes with an open mind this time as it won't be Aus in a shambles and he'll need to leave some of his favourites out to stand a chance.

FES it seems you're a much better option that Johnson and Lancaster - both of whom had a similar CV when applying for the England job.

Johnson would be a decent shout actually.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Johnson would be a decent shout actually.

To be captain or to be Head Coach?

Each option is equally compelling.

Head coach, he retired from playing a fair while ago now. Think it's only Vickery hanging on from the 03 WC winning side now.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Head coach, he retired from playing a fair while ago now. Think it's only Vickery hanging on from the 03 WC winning side now.

He retired from "coaching" a fair while ago as well. He wasn't very good at it.

Perhaps he could be Team Manager, or whatever it was that Andy Irvine did on the last tour (or do we already have one of those in place?).

hahahaha

Gatland sucks for playing his favourites (who finally put Aus to bed), and MJ is a good shout to head coach the tour party...

That has to be a practical joke coming from nyone who watched his England team play under him, legend to laughing stock was the term the guardian coined wasn't it?

A said above, Gatland is easily in the driving seat, and a succesfull tour paves the way for the All black job so he'll 100% be up for it (not that he wouldn't, but you don't write a 12 month break from your contract with your employer for no reason).

Johnson did win the 6Ns in his last season to be fair.

Gatland made errors in picking players known to him. Thought Stuart Barnes got some stick for saying Warburtons injury could be a blessing disguise, it proved correct. Gatland had set players in mind for his set in stone tactics. Form was pretty much ignored all tour.

mikey_dragon wrote:Beshocked all conjecture from you as usual. NZ and SA put similar scores on Aus that year, so what more could the Lions do...

You might be disappointed at that, but I'm personally disappointed at the fact England can't beat SA - I was also disappointed that up to now England couldn't win a 6N, they've only won it now because of injuries to Ireland, with an out of sorts France and Wales still in the mix.

mikey dragon it's not what more could Lions do. They beat what was in front of him. Did the job but I think a coaching panel of 606v2 posters would have coached the Lions to a victory too.

I am disappointed England can't beat SA too but at least Lancaster and co have gone now. Personnel changes made.

England still had to get 5/5, England have struggled to do that, a coaching panel of 606v2 posters might have done it too but a tougher ask then beating winning 2/3 matches vs a below par Australia.

FES good manifesto.

Gatland has been great if you discount his record vs the big three SH sides. I think it's one primary reason he wanted the 2013 Lions job - help Welsh players know what beating Australia is like....

Don't want Gatland near the Lions role vs NZ though.

Ironically Lancaster would be a better fit - at least he's coached an international side which has beaten NZ.

Bernard Laporte if he can be prised from the Toulon job would be a left field option too - he's got experience of beating the ABs too with France.

Jake White is another if he can be prised away from Montpellier.

Then there's of course Wayne Smith.

That first line is hilarious, because right now I'm thinking of a Lions team coached by you, LD and fanster - what a disaster that would be . Anyway less conjecture, Gatland with Wales plus a few token players smashed Aus. They should be congratulated for it, but all they get is criticism.

mikey_dragon wrote:That first line is hilarious, because right now I'm thinking of a Lions team coached by you, LD and fanster - what a disaster that would be . Anyway less conjecture, Gatland with Wales plus a few token players smashed Aus. They should be congratulated for it, but all they get is criticism.

MD,

Now come on that's a bit harsh, after all there are so many more qualified coaches on these boards than the ones currently doing the job. That's why they are on here telling us how easy it is.

mikey_dragon wrote:now I'm thinking of a Lions team coached by you, LD and fanster

I do not know why I have been brought into this, I will not talk about something that is over a year away. Although this does highlight MD's obsession with me.

Beshocked - a coaching Panel of 606v2 Posters would have torn eachother apart!!

I would select Gatland in a heartbeat, but if for whatever reason he was not available I would attempt to convince Joe Schmidt or Eddie Jones. I doubt Jones would be interested at this stage, as he's still getting his feet under the table with England. Perhaps in 5 years time.

Outside options from the club scene would be Gregor Townsend, Dean Richards or Dai Young. All former Lions. Connor O'Shea would be another possible long-shot.

Can't see past Gatland to be honest.

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:now I'm thinking of a Lions team coached by you, LD and fanster

I do not know why I have been brought into this, I will not talk about something that is over a year away. Although this does highlight MD's obsession with me.

Because of your 'rugby knowledge' .

mikey dragon funny you say that. I think I could get along with Fanster and Lorddowlais. Don't agree with everything but I think they are good posters.


FES I like to think you and I get along..... though if you would select Gatland then maybe not....

Still I think you're a decent poster.

FES - Head coach, PR man. Would have to hold everything together.

Fanster - attack coach

LD - forwards coach

Beshocked - defence coach, would hope to get some tips off the guru Gustard.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Johnson did win the 6Ns in his last season to be fair.

Gatland made errors in picking players known to him. Thought Stuart Barnes got some stick for saying Warburtons injury could be a blessing disguise, it proved correct. Gatland had set players in mind for his set in stone tactics. Form was pretty much ignored all tour.

Was that 2011? World cup year?

Which errors did he make? Not that he's impervious, no coach is, but from my POV he came in for stick for adding Wales players to test 3, which he was vindicated without doubt.

Warburton captained the tour didn't he? It's simple, you don't drop your captain, doing so would cause far more headaches than playing a player not quite 100%.

You can't go into a tour without a set in stone game plan, test 1 and 2 were very tight, throwing the gameplan out of the window to try something new, even before test 1 would always have been suicide! It's simple from Gats POV, he was working with a group of players available to him, until the superior players were ready to return, when they returned and played his game plan (test 3) the Lions were far superior.

If anything the Lions tour hurt Wales, Gatlands rigid tactics proved succesfull, and now for 3 season he's stuck to them beleiving they would come good.

mikey_dragon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:now I'm thinking of a Lions team coached by you, LD and fanster

I do not know why I have been brought into this, I will not talk about something that is over a year away. Although this does highlight MD's obsession with me.

Because of your 'rugby knowledge' .

Yeah, and you would pick players like Hallam Amos, Tyler Morgan, Nick Cudd, Ashton Hewitt and other Dragons players that you reckon should be playing for Wales.

beshocked wrote:mikey dragon funny you say that. I think I could get along with Fanster and Lorddowlais. Don't agree with everything but I think they are good posters.


FES I like to think you and I get along..... though if you would select Gatland then maybe not....

Still I think you're a decent poster.

FES - Head coach, PR man. Would have to hold everything together.

Fanster - attack coach

LD - forwards coach

Beshocked - defence coach, would hope to get some tips off the guru Gustard.

Like the last successful Lions coach I've picked my side already. 4 English, 4 Irish, 4 Welsh and 3 Scots. Lions "ethos" intact:

1.McGrath 2.Hartley 3.Nel 4.Itoje 5.Kruis 6.Stander 7.Warburton 8.Vunipola 9.Webb 10.Sexton 11.North 12.Roberts 13.Henshaw 14.Seymour 15.Hogg

Done. Input from my attack/forwards/defence coach not required.

beshocked wrote:mikey dragon funny you say that. I think I could get along with Fanster and Lorddowlais. Don't agree with everything but I think they are good posters.


FES I like to think you and I get along..... though if you would select Gatland then maybe not....

Still I think you're a decent poster.

FES - Head coach, PR man. Would have to hold everything together.

Fanster - attack coach

LD - forwards coach

Beshocked - defence coach, would hope to get some tips off the guru Gustard.

Just for the record, I am a defence specialist. I coordinate defence strategies and consult in attack patterns with a reactional analysis. I am very visually driven, and would require 3 part time assistant defence specialists to sift through data, video, and supply a lot of logistical support.

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:now I'm thinking of a Lions team coached by you, LD and fanster

I do not know why I have been brought into this, I will not talk about something that is over a year away. Although this does highlight MD's obsession with me.

Because of your 'rugby knowledge' .

Yeah, and you would pick players like Hallam Amos, Tyler Morgan, Nick Cudd, Ashton Hewitt and other Dragons players that you reckon should be playing for Wales.

What are you talking about? You've penned some of Dragons best players who I think should be in the Wales squad - not sure I got what you were getting thereafter?

Fanster wrote:

beshocked wrote:mikey dragon funny you say that. I think I could get along with Fanster and Lorddowlais. Don't agree with everything but I think they are good posters.


FES I like to think you and I get along..... though if you would select Gatland then maybe not....

Still I think you're a decent poster.

FES - Head coach, PR man. Would have to hold everything together.

Fanster - attack coach

LD - forwards coach

Beshocked - defence coach, would hope to get some tips off the guru Gustard.

Just for the record, I am a defence specialist. I coordinate defence strategies and consult in attack patterns with a reactional analysis. I am very visually driven, and would require 3 part time assistant defence specialists to sift through data, video, and supply a lot of logistical support.

You're fired. I have a set of Top Trumps, and was planning to use those.

The fact that you think they should be playing for Wales says it all. You would then probably pick them for the Lions if you were in charge as well.

mikey_dragon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:now I'm thinking of a Lions team coached by you, LD and fanster

I do not know why I have been brought into this, I will not talk about something that is over a year away. Although this does highlight MD's obsession with me.

Because of your 'rugby knowledge' .

Yeah, and you would pick players like Hallam Amos, Tyler Morgan, Nick Cudd, Ashton Hewitt and other Dragons players that you reckon should be playing for Wales.

What are you talking about? You've penned some of Dragons best players who I think should be in the Wales squad - not sure I got what you were getting thereafter?

LD, don't waste your time or energy...

To be honest, I don't think it really matters who will coach next year.

The Lions have absolutely no hope of winning the series.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Fanster wrote:

beshocked wrote:mikey dragon funny you say that. I think I could get along with Fanster and Lorddowlais. Don't agree with everything but I think they are good posters.


FES I like to think you and I get along..... though if you would select Gatland then maybe not....

Still I think you're a decent poster.

FES - Head coach, PR man. Would have to hold everything together.

Fanster - attack coach

LD - forwards coach

Beshocked - defence coach, would hope to get some tips off the guru Gustard.

Just for the record, I am a defence specialist. I coordinate defence strategies and consult in attack patterns with a reactional analysis. I am very visually driven, and would require 3 part time assistant defence specialists to sift through data, video, and supply a lot of logistical support.

You're fired. I have a set of Top Trumps, and was planning to use those.

You leave me no option but to have a sit down with Sir Ian Mcgheechan, he will automatically withdraw Dr Robson from the touring party and Health and Safety will cancel the tour alltogether. I thought you were leading from the front due to your people skills?

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:To be honest, I don't think it really matters who will coach next year.

The Lions have absolutely no hope of winning the series.

That's the spirit!

It's a slim chance but a chance nonetheless.

LordDowlais wrote:The fact that you think they should be playing for Wales says it all. You would then probably pick them for the Lions if you were in charge as well.

I only think Amos should be starting for Wales, and Morgan outside Roberts if fit because I believe JD2 and Williams to be too limited, and neither of which is a decent enough distributer of the ball. I also said I would have selected Hewitt, the crystal clear in form winger in Wales, in the squad in the place of Cuthbert or James. Not sure why you think I would select them for the Lions - I've picked my teams based on the 6N and it didn't contain any of those plays, so you're full of BS. Also weren't you the one trying to predict a 2017 team stating it would contain zero Scottish players? LD and his crystal ball strike again. Now THAT is funny.

FES to be fair that's a pretty good looking XV. Would stop me from moaning by picking Billy,Kruis and Itoje...

If Gatland was picking though there would 3 too many Scots, not enough Welsh. Lydiate,Roberts and Davies could book their hotel rooms now.

In all seriousness who would be in your 606v2 coaching dream team other than yourself of course?

Fanster so basically you would want 3 others to do the work - you would be delegating...

Not sure you would need 4 people to do defence work. If you did that to fill in all the coaching roles you could field a whole team!

Fanster wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:now I'm thinking of a Lions team coached by you, LD and fanster

I do not know why I have been brought into this, I will not talk about something that is over a year away. Although this does highlight MD's obsession with me.

Because of your 'rugby knowledge' .

Yeah, and you would pick players like Hallam Amos, Tyler Morgan, Nick Cudd, Ashton Hewitt and other Dragons players that you reckon should be playing for Wales.

What are you talking about? You've penned some of Dragons best players who I think should be in the Wales squad - not sure I got what you were getting thereafter?

LD, don't waste your time or energy...

What you going on about now silly wannabe boyo?

Fanster wrote:LD, don't waste your time or energy...

Yep your right enough Fanster.