The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

First topic message reminder :

I am posting this so that we can talk about rugby, yes I will use links from the media to create a discussion, and whether you agree with them or not, it is not me saying them. 

So, the Pro12, how could it move forward, for me there are one or two bones of contention for me, and that is the refereeing situation we find ourselves in, and the two Italian sides, firstly I will speak about the Italian sides, they have been here for a few years now and they are getting worse, now whether that is because of the fall out with the CC or not, the simple fact is they are not adding much to the league other than a banker five points when they travel and the odd banana skin when teams travel to play them. I would not like to see the Italians cut adrift, but at the same time they seriously need to up their game, at the moment they look as if they do not want to be here and are just waiting for the season to end, recent results have reflected this. I also think, that at the moment a place in the top tier of Europe is a waste for them, they will never win that competition with the state they are in at the moment and I think it would be far more beneficial for them to play in the second tier where they would have a better chance of picking up results and giving them more confidence. Jonathan Davies was pretty scathing about them on Scrum V on Sunday night:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/36068740

Now I do not agree with him when it comes to ditching the Italians, but he does make a good point. Something needs to be seriously looked at when we are considering the two Italian teams, what would you suggest ?

Secondly I will talk about our refereeing situation, I am very uncomfortable with the status quo we find ourselves in at the moment when it comes to the referees, I am not comfortable that we are in a situation where the unions employ the referees AND the players. This leads to calls of potential bias, and the union controlled teams bringing their own refs with them, I think the referees should be employed by a central organisation, not the unions, and I think that the central organisation should be the league itself, the money the unions pay the refs should be payed to the league and then the league should have direct control over the referees. The league should then have a remit of how the refs should perform, and all the refs should be singing from the same hymn sheet, not that of their respective unions. Only when something like this happens will we see an improvement.

I would also like to talk about an article I read on WOL that Jeremy Guscott scratched upon, and states that we should be improving our brand of rugby to be able to compete with the French and English, also he has pointed out that because our CC players are restricted to the amount of games they can play, they hamper the teams involved, this I agree with, and I would rather we rested our players for Europe and played them more in the league. Guscott says that because there is no relegation from the Pro12 then there should be no excuses for us not playing a better brand of rugby. Anyway here's the link if anyone is interested:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-legend-tells-welsh-regions-11202285

Do you agree with Jeremy Guscott ?

LordDowlais wrote:After years and years Munchkin, I think we are finally coming to an agreement over something.  or

Which ever you prefer.

The thing is, we have refs reffing the Irish way, which will be more akin to the Irish provinces, we have Welsh refs, reffing the Welsh way, more akin to the Welsh teams and so on.

We need refs, reffing the Pro12 way, all under one style, all under one remit and all answerable to the same shooting squad.

It's always good to agree

We will get there slowly Munch.

After all, there will always be PhillBB to kick things off.

LD - Checked out the blog and assume you're referring to point 9, so the guy wants to see a better standard of refereeing - every rugby fan in the world wants this not just the PRO12.

If the current referee arrangement is holding the League back, what is the alternative? How much will it cost and how much will it generate in increased revenue? No evidence has been presented that having a squad of cyber referees would make one iota of difference to the success of the League! Sure everyone would like totally neutral referees who apply the Laws with consistent precision, but then everyone would also like World peace, be fabulously wealthy and to live forever - a degree of pragmatism has to be tolerated.

The perceived problem of increasingly "poor" referees has emerged with the increased use of technology. Referees are now fitter, more clued into precedent, more conversant with the Laws and have more match experience than ever, and therefore are logically "better" than their predecessors. However the perception in some areas is the reverse because poor decisions are now highlighted where they would have been missed in pre-tech days. Refereeing is about interpretation of the Law and as such will always be subjective, therefore it is impossible for any referee to be flawless in everyone's eyes.

The continual slating of referees does not improve standards but rather just focuses on their human mistakes and undermines confidence. So if the referees are really an issue for the PRO12, what is the alternative? How much will it cost and how much will it generate in increased revenue? Until those questions have answers it is impossible to accept that the current arrangement is holding back the PRO12.

NOte also that in recent weeks I have seen on these boards complaints about the poor standard of reffing in the AP. I actually think that the only way is to have 5 officials on the field - then all aspects of the game can be watched at all times. The ref cannot watch the breakdown and the offside line at the same time. The touch judges canot watch the offisde line and for their other duties - requires differnt positioning etc etc. either 4 TJs each patrolling half a line or 2 end judges to watch from a central position in the goal area

Incidentally how many of us never make a mistake at work? - and how many of us have to make complex judgement calls in a short space of time? I am a nurse. I have made mistakes. I have to make complex judgement calls but I get time to discuss them with my colleagues and even then hindsight often tells me another way could have been better. I certainly could not ref a game.

Agree, refs are as human as the rest of us, and will make mistakes. It's ok to question a refs call, but the abuse they receive is never justified, although I have been more than a little angry at some decisions myself.

This T14 player got what he deserved after hurling abuse at a ref:

CareerEndingHissyFit

He got a 15 month ban from the LNR, does that mean he could be signed up cheap, have a Pro12 board over-rule the ban (like LNR have dine before), and play in the pro12?

Can't see why not. What's good for the goose... He would need anger management courses before any would be brave enough to take him on though

I'd take him at the Scarlets, give everyone a different fullback to hate

I guess it would be a nice distraction. To be fair on Williams, he's a reformed character these days. One of my favourites. A bit like Ulsters own Williams, but hopefully he lets the halo slip when goes to Cardiff.

Actually a good event for Rugby. 15 months.... no messing around. And his team mate really directly intimating that his behaviour was not on.

Rugby is a tough old sport.... but this class it shows in maintaining complete respect for the ref and not remotely allowing those standards to slip is always a nice thing to see. Disagree with them by all means but don't attempt to abuse them

SecretFly wrote:Actually a good event for Rugby.  15 months.... no messing around.  And his team mate really directly intimating that his behaviour was not on.

Rugby is a tough old sport.... but this class it shows in maintaining complete respect for the ref and not remotely allowing those standards to slip is always a nice thing to see.  Disagree with them by all means but don't attempt to abuse them

The physical size of players means we must ensure there is respect to the ref, otherwise it would be a very scary place to be, and undoubtedly games would go in favour of whoever has the biggest nastiest player. I mean Canada would be world champions based on Cudmore alone.

15 months would possibly be too lenient if he were not an aging player, and also going to be out of contract by the end of the ban.

TJ wrote:NOte also that in recent weeks I have seen on these boards complaints about the poor standard of reffing in the AP.  I actually think that the only way is to have 5 officials on the field - then all aspects of the game can be watched at all times.  The ref cannot watch the breakdown and the offside line at the same time.  The touch judges canot watch the offisde line and for their other duties - requires differnt positioning etc etc.  either 4 TJs each patrolling half a line or 2 end judges to watch from a central position in the goal area

... or another way of looking at it is to accept the flaws and stop chasing a rainbow's end. Being Devil's advocate here but why not forget about having a TMO at all and just leave it up to the Ref. Stop showing replays of incidents on the big screen alienating one section of the crowd and firing up the other. Let those nerds who want to analyse the game do so at their own leisure at home after the game but give the ref his place as sole arbiter on the night. Suck it up and live by it after all it's not a matter of life or death...

The Great Aukster wrote:

... or another way of looking at it is to accept the flaws and stop chasing a rainbow's end. Being Devil's advocate here but why not forget about having a TMO at all and just leave it up to the Ref. Stop showing replays of incidents on the big screen alienating one section of the crowd and firing up the other. Let those nerds who want to analyse the game do so at their own leisure at home after the game but give the ref his place as sole arbiter on the night. Suck it up and live by it after all it's not a matter of life or death...

Yes, it would lead to frustrating games for fans who would feel hard done by. But over time, just like in the old days, things and decisions would even out.

The issue with the big screen is they tend to just put up what the broadcasters show, so the replays are to be expected. I've found that on the times when a replay has started, and then cuts to black, it fires up the crowd even more, as it must have been something pretty bad if they don't want to show it to us again.

But it has become too much of a 'crowd-participation' X-Factor-y, boo-the-contestant-you-don't-want-to-go-through show, Scarlet.
It's now being used by home town TV, to set their crowds up, to boo the decisions, to make the ref's role even more pressurised than it was.  It's become the plaything of broadcasters that want to influence the result and must be looked at again.... not the footage, the concept

Does anyone know how many,and who are,the Elite Level 5 or equivalent coaches in the Pro12? Not finding it easy to get this information.

LordDowlais wrote:Phill, seriously, do not get into an employment argument with me, I have been in this game for the best part of twenty years, I suggest you go and read what primacy of contract means, not what it sounds like it means. I am not getting into this with you as you are de-railing this topic with your nonsense.

Mate, do try to write something factual other than complete waffle.

The WRU has primacy of contract. The PRW stumps up 40%.

marty2086 wrote:
Unlike some I have acknowledged in the past when Im wrong, instead of name calling or running away

That's a blatant lie.

Who ran away? You keep mentioning that as though it is of some relevance.

Friend is a fan of Leicester.

PGMOL do not pick officials who could be seen as suffering from bias. Note - could be seen. Not that they are biased. This is why Owens doesn't referee Wales. This is why Unions shouldn't employ players and officials.

Munchkin wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
If you can't provide facts then it's baseless. Good grief....

Sorry, but what fact would you like to justify my sentence? A link to Gwlad? Twitter? A rugby club conversation?

None of the above. Here's your claim: "That's funny as it's pretty widely recognised in Wales as being an issue."

You would need a reliable poll to justify your claim, not 'my mates told me at a pub', or Mr A Moaner on Twitter said it. It just doesn't work like that. It's like the usual cry, which is BS, 'everybody knows'.

Now, back on real evidence, if there was a poll, and the majority of people in Wales did agree that Irish refs being 'colleagues' of the Provinces was an issue, then all that would suggest is that your theory is supported by the majority, not that the theory is in fact true. Real facts are required to support your implied, if this is what you are implying, claim that Irish refs are influenced to cheat on behalf of their Provincial/IRFU 'colleagues'. Stats wouldn't be conclusive (games won lost, cards, etc..), but would be supportive, however, even the stats suggest what you imply is completely false. So calling the theory BS is appropriate.

You Numpty

Christ, no wonder you edited that three times. And even after three edits, that's the best you could come up with.

I see that the only evidence you will accept is a poll. What wonderful logic. Nothing happens in Wales unless there is a poll to prove it to some chap in Ireland.

Epic logic, fair play.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Unlike some I have acknowledged in the past when Im wrong, instead of name calling or running away

That's a blatant lie.

Who ran away? You keep mentioning that as though it is of some relevance.

Friend is a fan of Leicester.

PGMOL do not pick officials who could be seen as suffering from bias. Note - could be seen. Not that they are biased. This is why Owens doesn't referee Wales. This is why Unions shouldn't employ players and officials.

Whats a blatant lie?

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Unlike some I have acknowledged in the past when Im wrong, instead of name calling or running away

That's a blatant lie.

Who ran away? You keep mentioning that as though it is of some relevance.

Friend is a fan of Leicester.

PGMOL do not pick officials who could be seen as suffering from bias. Note - could be seen. Not that they are biased. This is why Owens doesn't referee Wales. This is why Unions shouldn't employ players and officials.

Whats a blatant lie?

That you acknowledge when you're wrong.

Good job you ignored the rest of the post.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Unlike some I have acknowledged in the past when Im wrong, instead of name calling or running away

That's a blatant lie.

Who ran away? You keep mentioning that as though it is of some relevance.

Friend is a fan of Leicester.

PGMOL do not pick officials who could be seen as suffering from bias. Note - could be seen. Not that they are biased. This is why Owens doesn't referee Wales. This is why Unions shouldn't employ players and officials.

Whats a blatant lie?

That you acknowledge when you're wrong.

Good job you ignored the rest of the post.

Well the first line was important to address first because I wasn't sure what you were addressing. Not to address it, you thinking Im wrong and me being wrong are two separate things, you're welcome to have look around some threads and see me acknowledge when Im wrong there was even an occasion this morning

As for the rest well I'm just going to leave this here

'Friend, who is a Bristol City fan but lives in Leicestershire and has attended Leicester matches with friends, has been replaced by Neil Swarbrick for the match at the Britannia Stadium after his initial appointment attracted criticism from fans on message boards and social media'

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/10243568/arsene-wenger-critical-of-decision-to-switch-kevin-friend-off-tottenham-game

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
If you can't provide facts then it's baseless. Good grief....

Sorry, but what fact would you like to justify my sentence? A link to Gwlad? Twitter? A rugby club conversation?

None of the above. Here's your claim: "That's funny as it's pretty widely recognised in Wales as being an issue."

You would need a reliable poll to justify your claim, not 'my mates told me at a pub', or Mr A Moaner on Twitter said it. It just doesn't work like that. It's like the usual cry, which is BS, 'everybody knows'.

Now, back on real evidence, if there was a poll, and the majority of people in Wales did agree that Irish refs being 'colleagues' of the Provinces was an issue, then all that would suggest is that your theory is supported by the majority, not that the theory is in fact true. Real facts are required to support your implied, if this is what you are implying, claim that Irish refs are influenced to cheat on behalf of their Provincial/IRFU 'colleagues'. Stats wouldn't be conclusive (games won lost, cards, etc..), but would be supportive, however, even the stats suggest what you imply is completely false. So calling the theory BS is appropriate.

You Numpty

Christ, no wonder you edited that three times. And even after three edits, that's the best you could come up with.

I see that the only evidence you will accept is a poll. What wonderful logic. Nothing happens in Wales unless there is a poll to prove it to some chap in Ireland.

Epic logic, fair play.

I edited it once to correct a typo, and twice to add something, the last of which was to call you a numpty.

I can see why you are given to conspiracy theories. You haven't a clue about logic, and you haven't a clue what facts are. You think 'hear say' is fact

So you think a national poll is less relevant than 'my mates in the pub told me', or 'I read it on Twitter'?

If you could read, you would also have spotted that I don't think a poll on it's own proves anything. I did say stats would be supportive but not conclusive.

Comprehension, Phil, comprehension!

"Nothing happens in Wales unless there is a poll to prove it to some chap in Ireland".

Nothing happens in Wales that any Welsh chap is ever prepared to believe happened at all - period; .... poll or no poll.... even if the Welsh chap himself did it, said it, instigated it, claimed it, sold it, bought it or ran away from it.
There are always ten million alternative reasons why two ones got to two - but it's never "1+1" that did it.

FFS...

I thought Griff might have a word of advice after a comment like that

Pro12; you couldn't be without it. It's why the dinosaurs died out.  They died of boredom waiting for the competition to get started ... it was just too late arriving.

marty2086 wrote:
Well the first line was important to address first because I wasn't sure what you were addressing. Not to address it, you thinking Im wrong and me being wrong are two separate things, you're welcome to have look around some threads and see me acknowledge when Im wrong there was even an occasion this morning

As for the rest well I'm just going to leave this here

'Friend, who is a Bristol City fan but lives in Leicestershire and has attended Leicester matches with friends, has been replaced by Neil Swarbrick for the match at the Britannia Stadium after his initial appointment attracted criticism from fans on message boards and social media'

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/10243568/arsene-wenger-critical-of-decision-to-switch-kevin-friend-off-tottenham-game

http://metro.co.uk/2016/04/14/premier-league-remove-kevin-friend-from-tottenham-match-because-hes-a-leicester-fan-5815875/

To address your first guff: you being wrong and you understanding that you're wrong are the two areas that rarely meet.

Munchkin wrote:

I edited it once to correct a typo, and twice to add something, the last of which was to call you a numpty.

I can see why you are given to conspiracy theories. You haven't a clue about logic, and you haven't a clue what facts are. You think 'hear say' is fact

So you think a national poll is less relevant than 'my mates in the pub told me', or 'I read it on Twitter'?

If you could read, you would also have spotted that I don't think a poll on it's own proves anything. I did say stats would be supportive but not conclusive.

Comprehension, Phil, comprehension!

No, it's a fact that there is an issue in Welsh rugby with Irish referees reffing their colleagues. That's not 'hearsay'. Its evidential.

I think that a poll is irrelevant to my point. But I can see why you're unable to recognise the difference.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Well the first line was important to address first because I wasn't sure what you were addressing. Not to address it, you thinking Im wrong and me being wrong are two separate things, you're welcome to have look around some threads and see me acknowledge when Im wrong there was even an occasion this morning

As for the rest well I'm just going to leave this here

'Friend, who is a Bristol City fan but lives in Leicestershire and has attended Leicester matches with friends, has been replaced by Neil Swarbrick for the match at the Britannia Stadium after his initial appointment attracted criticism from fans on message boards and social media'

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/10243568/arsene-wenger-critical-of-decision-to-switch-kevin-friend-off-tottenham-game

http://metro.co.uk/2016/04/14/premier-league-remove-kevin-friend-from-tottenham-match-because-hes-a-leicester-fan-5815875/

To address your first guff: you being wrong and you understanding that you're wrong are the two areas that rarely meet.

Well look at that, not much of a football fan is he if he supports two teams

Can I get lessons from you Phil on how to pretend Im not wrong?

marty2086 wrote:
Well look at that, not much of a football fan is he if he supports two teams

Can I get lessons from you Phil on how to pretend Im not wrong?

Many in soccer support two teams at differing levels.

You don't need those lessons. You just need some self awareness.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Well look at that, not much of a football fan is he if he supports two teams

Can I get lessons from you Phil on how to pretend Im not wrong?

Many in soccer support two teams at differing levels.

You don't need those lessons. You just need some self awareness.

How do I need self awareness? I read an article that stated he was Bristol City fan and was a regular at Leicester with friends, considering the two teams regularly compete at the same level its easy to assume he didn't support both

You only knew about the two teams once you went and googled it to back up your claims

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

I edited it once to correct a typo, and twice to add something, the last of which was to call you a numpty.

I can see why you are given to conspiracy theories. You haven't a clue about logic, and you haven't a clue what facts are. You think 'hear say' is fact

So you think a national poll is less relevant than 'my mates in the pub told me', or 'I read it on Twitter'?

If you could read, you would also have spotted that I don't think a poll on it's own proves anything. I did say stats would be supportive but not conclusive.

Comprehension, Phil, comprehension!

No, it's a fact that there is an issue in Welsh rugby with Irish referees reffing their colleagues. That's not 'hearsay'. Its evidential.

I think that a poll is irrelevant to my point. But I can see why you're unable to recognise the difference.

No, Phil, it's a fact that a few of the Regions conspiracy theorists have an issue with the Irish, when it comes to rugby union, not that there is an issue specific to Irish referees. A poll would be completely relevant to your point, as it's the only way to prove it! And proving that your opinion is widespread amongst the Welsh still wouldn't prove that your conspiracy is fact!

Keep digging, Phil

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

I edited it once to correct a typo, and twice to add something, the last of which was to call you a numpty.

I can see why you are given to conspiracy theories. You haven't a clue about logic, and you haven't a clue what facts are. You think 'hear say' is fact

So you think a national poll is less relevant than 'my mates in the pub told me', or 'I read it on Twitter'?

If you could read, you would also have spotted that I don't think a poll on it's own proves anything. I did say stats would be supportive but not conclusive.

Comprehension, Phil, comprehension!

No, it's a fact that there is an issue in Welsh rugby with Irish referees reffing their colleagues. That's not 'hearsay'. Its evidential.

I think that a poll is irrelevant to my point. But I can see why you're unable to recognise the difference.

There is an issue in Irish rugby with Welsh referees referring Welsh teams - who employs them is not the issue, which nation they represent is.
(Welsh referees are not that divorced from the Union as many are suggesting here anyway)
The complaint will continue on both sides of the water when referees are from the same country as one of the teams
We both suffer from the same, perceived issue, equally.

What is a shame is a genuine question has been raised and the thread has deteriorated into a slagging match about current referees
The issue that has been going on endlessly would not even arise if Scotland And Italy produced more than one referee between them.
There is the solution, or paying for referees from outside, not shouting at each other in blind tedium about something that is not even key to the point in hand.

The manner in which Irish, and Welsh, referees are organized and recruited is not going to, fundamentally change and is not the problem In the first place.
There are big issues here worthy of debate.

Any chance this thread could become productive again instead of mindless yah boo posts ?

geoff999rugby wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

I edited it once to correct a typo, and twice to add something, the last of which was to call you a numpty.

I can see why you are given to conspiracy theories. You haven't a clue about logic, and you haven't a clue what facts are. You think 'hear say' is fact

So you think a national poll is less relevant than 'my mates in the pub told me', or 'I read it on Twitter'?

If you could read, you would also have spotted that I don't think a poll on it's own proves anything. I did say stats would be supportive but not conclusive.

Comprehension, Phil, comprehension!

No, it's a fact that there is an issue in Welsh rugby with Irish referees reffing their colleagues. That's not 'hearsay'. Its evidential.

I think that a poll is irrelevant to my point. But I can see why you're unable to recognise the difference.

There is an issue in Irish rugby with Welsh referees referring Welsh teams - who employs them is not the issue, which nation they represent is.
(Welsh referees are not that divorced from the Union as many are suggesting here anyway)
The complaint will continue on both sides of the water when referees are from the same country as one of the teams
We both suffer from the same, perceived issue, equally.

What is a shame is a genuine question has been raised and the thread has deteriorated into a slagging match about current referees
The issue that has been going on endlessly would not even arise if Scotland And Italy produced more than one referee between them.
There is the solution, or paying for referees from outside, not shouting at each other in blind tedium about something that is not even key to the point in hand.

The manner in which Irish, and Welsh, referees are organized and recruited is not going to, fundamentally change and is not the problem In the first place.
There are big issues here worthy of debate.

Any chance this thread could become productive again instead of mindless yah boo posts ?

I don't think there is much of an issue with Welsh refs, in Ireland. Sure there's those that cry bias, but it's hardly an issue.

Phil implies that because the Provinces are owned by the IRFU, and the refs employed by the IRFU, the refs will be influenced to favour the Provinces - cheat. This is the issue, in his mind. That's why he insists on calling the refs colleagues of the Provinces.  

It would be good if there were more Italian and Scottish refs, but that still wouldn't deal with this imagined issue, that exists in the mind of Phil, because the Irish refs would still be colleagues of the Provinces. Even if these colleagues of the Provinces never reffed a game with a Province, they would still be accused of cheating, because they would influence the games of their nearest competitors, in the minds of those that like to cling to unsubstantiated conspiracy theories.

So, in Phils mind, we do not suffer from the same, perceived issue, equally. Not that I believe Irish/Welsh fans, in general, suffer from this false perception, at all.

There may be an issue with Irish refs controlling games with an Irish team, or Welsh and Welsh teams but........


..... the alternative is either Mitrea or a scots ref.

The issue isn't with refereeing. The issue is with the Irish. Its either Irish refs cheating, Irish teams not taking the league seriously, Irish teams having an unfair financial advantage, Irish teams cheating, Irish control of pro12 rugby etc. Its always been the same.

profitius wrote:The issue isn't with refereeing. The issue is with the Irish. Its either Irish refs cheating, Irish teams not taking the league seriously, Irish teams having an unfair financial advantage, Irish teams cheating, Irish control of pro12 rugby etc. Its always been the same.

Indeed, it's all about the Irish.

LondonTiger wrote:There may be an issue with Irish refs controlling games with an Irish team, or Welsh and Welsh teams but........


..... the alternative is either Mitrea or a scots ref.

Yikes.

An independent branch of ref's would be nice, but hire them from all corners rather than just the competing unions in the Pro12. Maybe the Pro12 itself could establish this? I'm sure that's been mentioned on here before.

Watching Roman Poite today, I have to ask how some see poor refereeing just as a Pro12 problem

It does seem worse in the Pro12, but I could be wrong. Thing is, it's always been bad in the Pro12 and there has been no sign of improvement.

mikey_dragon wrote:It does seem worse in the Pro12, but I could be wrong. Thing is, it's always been bad in the Pro12 and there has been no sign of improvement.

You are wrong because the Pro12 has some of the finest refs in Europe but is let down because of a couple of really poor ones. There have been cases of refs receiving death threats in France, so no it's certainly not a problem exclusive to the Pro 12.

Well that's just French passion for you. Who are these best ref's? Nigel Owens, yeah that's one. I think there's potential in new kids on the block like Whitehouse, but he's not great just yet. Who else is there?

I would say that Davies, Lacey, Mitrea, Whitehouse, Owens and Paterson are all decent, or better. Lacey gets a lot of abuse, but most of it is undeserved, or judged on past history. Whitehouse is a homer though, as is Mitrea.

Who is there in the T14?

Munchkin wrote:I would say that Davies, Lacey, Mitrea, Whitehouse, Owens and Paterson are all decent, or better. Lacey gets a lot of abuse, but most of it is undeserved, or judged on past history. Whitehouse is a homer though, as is Mitrea.

Who is there in the T14?

I'd take Owens, Davies, and Mitrea over any of the other refs in the other leagues. Even Lacey can be ok. The only one from France who is somewhat decent is Garces but he can be very hit and miss depending on how many times he wants to hear himself blow his whistle.

The problem is when a ref makes a couple of mistakes (often minor ones at that) in a P12 game, this forum goes into meltdown with claims of bias towards the Irish, hometown decisions, useless ref! etc etc. The ref simply cannot win, there is nobody in the world who could ever ref up to the standards set on this site. Why anyone wants to be a ref in rugby is beyond me.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:The problem is when a ref makes a couple of mistakes (often minor ones at that) in a P12 game, this forum goes into meltdown with claims of bias towards the Irish, hometown decisions, useless ref! etc etc. The ref simply cannot win, there is nobody in the world who could ever ref up to the standards set on this site. Why anyone wants to be a ref in rugby is beyond me.

Unsurprisingly fewer and fewer are wanting to be. There is a growing culture where referees are fair game for both player and crowd abuse. The time involved is increasing and the rewards are not. Some of the best referees are being cajoled into staying in the game when they want to retire because replacements are so scarce.

The PRO12 games usually require flights and sometimes an overnight stay. The all-Ireland league means excessive travel, sometimes at short notice. A friend who was progressing rapidly through the refereeing ranks, told me about a School's Cup game he was asked to officiate at two hours before the game - and 80 miles away. During the game the home full back called a mark while dropping the ball forward, but his watching Dad insisted it was a good mark, and subsequently gave the referee a tirade of foul mouthed abuse at every opportunity for the rest of the match. The Dad also got the school headmaster to write a letter of complaint about sub-standard refereeing.

Fans don't understand the Laws and often wrongly accuse the referees, so the first step in improving the referees is actually improving the fans understanding of what they are doing.

The Great Aukster wrote:told me about a School's Cup game he was asked to officiate at two hours before the game - and 80 miles away. During the game the home full back called a mark while dropping the ball forward, but his watching Dad insisted it was a good mark, and subsequently gave the referee a tirade of foul mouthed abuse at every opportunity for the rest of the match. The Dad also got the school headmaster to write a letter of complaint about sub-standard refereeing.

It's a wonder we have any referees at all when you hear stories like this.

mikey_dragon wrote:It does seem worse in the Pro12, but I could be wrong. Thing is, it's always been bad in the Pro12 and there has been no sign of improvement.

Well with Poite yesterday he seemed incapable of refereeing offside and Saracens knew it, he actually told players a few times to stop and get back onside and they either didn't hear him or ignored him and he just let it go. It was almost comical

I think a lot of the perception about the refereeing standard is based on games you lose.

I have not once seen where a team loses and a certain number of their fans do not blame the ref, it applies to every team

e.g Musters Losses to Connacht and Leinster etc go onto certain fan sites and the ref was one sided and terrible)

The difference is these fans weren't complaining about the ref when Munster were winning, ask these fans a few years ago and they would have said the standard of ref was fine in the Pro 12 ask them now and the refs are poor and never give Munster any decisions, penalise them but let the other team away with it etc etc.
The more you lose the louder the complaints about the ref become.

I think the perception in Wales is that the ref's are poor, while in Ireland they are fine, and I think that is mostly down to Welsh teams having lost 42 games and Irish teams only losing 28 meaning there are more chances for complaints coming out of Wales, if it was reversed I would expect there would be more coming out of Ireland about the standard of ref.

I bet that Glasgow fans think the standard of referee is fine, Edinburgh maybe the odd complaint, and if there were Italians on this site they would be up in arms about the standard of referee.

I agree with you, Kingshu. There will always be fans that blame the ref but, to be fair  on Munster fans, Munster fans do tend to blame the team/coach much more.

What about those fans that turn on the ref even when they win, or those that abuse the ref even before the game has started?