The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

First topic message reminder :

I am posting this so that we can talk about rugby, yes I will use links from the media to create a discussion, and whether you agree with them or not, it is not me saying them. 

So, the Pro12, how could it move forward, for me there are one or two bones of contention for me, and that is the refereeing situation we find ourselves in, and the two Italian sides, firstly I will speak about the Italian sides, they have been here for a few years now and they are getting worse, now whether that is because of the fall out with the CC or not, the simple fact is they are not adding much to the league other than a banker five points when they travel and the odd banana skin when teams travel to play them. I would not like to see the Italians cut adrift, but at the same time they seriously need to up their game, at the moment they look as if they do not want to be here and are just waiting for the season to end, recent results have reflected this. I also think, that at the moment a place in the top tier of Europe is a waste for them, they will never win that competition with the state they are in at the moment and I think it would be far more beneficial for them to play in the second tier where they would have a better chance of picking up results and giving them more confidence. Jonathan Davies was pretty scathing about them on Scrum V on Sunday night:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/36068740

Now I do not agree with him when it comes to ditching the Italians, but he does make a good point. Something needs to be seriously looked at when we are considering the two Italian teams, what would you suggest ?

Secondly I will talk about our refereeing situation, I am very uncomfortable with the status quo we find ourselves in at the moment when it comes to the referees, I am not comfortable that we are in a situation where the unions employ the referees AND the players. This leads to calls of potential bias, and the union controlled teams bringing their own refs with them, I think the referees should be employed by a central organisation, not the unions, and I think that the central organisation should be the league itself, the money the unions pay the refs should be payed to the league and then the league should have direct control over the referees. The league should then have a remit of how the refs should perform, and all the refs should be singing from the same hymn sheet, not that of their respective unions. Only when something like this happens will we see an improvement.

I would also like to talk about an article I read on WOL that Jeremy Guscott scratched upon, and states that we should be improving our brand of rugby to be able to compete with the French and English, also he has pointed out that because our CC players are restricted to the amount of games they can play, they hamper the teams involved, this I agree with, and I would rather we rested our players for Europe and played them more in the league. Guscott says that because there is no relegation from the Pro12 then there should be no excuses for us not playing a better brand of rugby. Anyway here's the link if anyone is interested:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-legend-tells-welsh-regions-11202285

Do you agree with Jeremy Guscott ?

PhilBB wrote:

I think you're only fooling yourself if you think that the English and Welsh pro teams wouldn't agree to a ring fenced league.

Deluding, in fact.

It was put to you...  I've put that solution on the table more than once over the last few years.
Each time, either you or - to be euphemistic - a pal of yours that had a remarkably similar personality type to your own and remarkably similar opinions on all things Irish, would have none of it.

I was told that if I didn't see the merit of getting more money for everyone then I was a fool.  I'd reply "but nevermind about us (IRFU).  If you're unhappy, let the PRW go try to renegotiate with the PRL alone."  
The reply would come back..... "If you don't see the merit of getting more money for everyone then you are a fool"
"So I'm a fool.  Go do your own thing.  Don't worry about us.  Look after your own interests"
"If you don't see the merit of getting more money for everyone then you are a fool"

Etc etc.

You get the picture?  There is always a stall when the Anglo/Welsh League is mentioned.  There seems to be a stick in the spokes of that concept.  What is the stick?  PRL lack of interest?

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:My point is that their big interest is the Irish market. Whats yours?

That Guinness is sold in Scotland and Wales and Italy, by a London company, so you can't claim it is sponsoring the league solely because of Irish team involvement.

A number of Welsh men on 606 strongly suggested it might be a factor. One or two even 'jokingly' suggested Guinness was as bad as Irish refs for creating Irish wins to satisfy Irish fans.

Can't have it both ways, Phil.

SecretFly wrote:
It was put to you...  I've put that solution on the table more than once over the last few years.
Each time, either you or - to be euphemistic - a pal of yours that had a remarkably similar personality type to your own and remarkably similar opinions on all things Irish, would have none of it.

I was told that if I didn't see the merit of getting more money for everyone then I was a fool.  I'd reply "but nevermind about us (IRFU).  If you're unhappy, let the PRW go try to renegotiate with the PRL alone."  
The reply would come back..... "If you don't see the merit of getting more money for everyone then you are a fool"
"So I'm a fool.  Go do your own thing.  Don't worry about us.  Look after your own interests"
"If you don't see the merit of getting more money for everyone then you are a fool"

Etc etc.

You get the picture?  There is always a stall when the Anglo/Welsh League is mentioned.  There seems to be a stick in the spokes of that concept.  What is the stick?  PRL lack of interest?

Mate, I can't answer for smallclone (who posted on here as chunky and can still be found on Gwlad and Twitter) if that's who you are referring to.

The stick in the spoke is the existing Celtic Accord contract, my friend.

SecretFly wrote:

A number of Welsh men on 606 strongly suggested it might be a factor.  One or two even 'jokingly' suggested Guinness was as bad as Irish refs for creating Irish wins to satisfy Irish fans.

Can't have it both ways, Phil.

Plenty of Welsh men can be wrong, Eric.

SecretFly wrote: I've put that solution on the table more than once over the last few years.

Which 'table' have you used for this 'solution', by the way?

Well I'm suggesting you might be a candidate for that category... em....... oh Phil will do.

SecretFly wrote:Well I'm suggesting you might be a candidate for that category... em....... oh Phil will do.

Sure, happy to be shown so when Diageo come out with 'We only sponsored the PrO'12 for its brand exposure in Ireland'.

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote: I've put that solution on the table more than once over the last few years.

Which 'table' have you used for this 'solution', by the way?

Oh dear. Don't Phil. Leave it.......


Leave that there and I'll even pretend you never said it.

SecretFly wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote: I've put that solution on the table more than once over the last few years.

Which 'table' have you used for this 'solution', by the way?

Oh dear.  Don't Phil.  Leave it.......


Leave that there and I'll even pretend you never said it.

No answer, Jack? Why's that?

Go on, I'll ask again.

On which table have you placed that solution?

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Well I'm suggesting you might be a candidate for that category... em....... oh Phil will do.

Sure, happy to be shown so when Diageo come out with 'We only sponsored the PrO'12 for its brand exposure in Ireland'.

Oh I'd moved on Phil. I was just plotting out Welsh men who are wrong. A general overview based on 606 history.

SecretFly wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Well I'm suggesting you might be a candidate for that category... em....... oh Phil will do.

Sure, happy to be shown so when Diageo come out with 'We only sponsored the PrO'12 for its brand exposure in Ireland'.

Oh I'd moved on Phil.  I was just plotting out Welsh men who are wrong.  A general overview based on 606 history.

I hadn't moved on. I was just plotting out that most Irish contributors to this thread post utter drivel.

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote: I've put that solution on the table more than once over the last few years.

Which 'table' have you used for this 'solution', by the way?

Oh dear.  Don't Phil.  Leave it.......


Leave that there and I'll even pretend you never said it.

No answer, Jack? Why's that?

Go on, I'll ask again.

On which table have you placed that solution?

Back to trying to turn the tide again with that little trick of demanding an answer to a question?

Remember me pointing out your little exercise earlier in evasion?

Don't lower your standards by using the above question. The standard of that one is beneath you, Phil.

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Well I'm suggesting you might be a candidate for that category... em....... oh Phil will do.

Sure, happy to be shown so when Diageo come out with 'We only sponsored the PrO'12 for its brand exposure in Ireland'.

Oh I'd moved on Phil.  I was just plotting out Welsh men who are wrong.  A general overview based on 606 history.

I hadn't moved on. I was just plotting out that most Irish contributors to this thread post utter drivel.

That confirms that you're on the list. Congratulations.

SecretFly wrote:

Back to trying to turn the tide again with that little trick of demanding an answer to a question?

Remember me pointing out your little exercise earlier in evasion?

Don't lower your standards by using the above question.  The standard of that one is beneath you, Phil.

So you can't tell me what table you placed this solution on.

Well, well. I'm shocked.

SecretFly wrote:
That confirms that you're on the list.  Congratulations.

Superb news.

Now, what table?

No answer to that will be coming your way as I'd be seen to mock you if I answered it.

I won't go down that road. Suffice to say, don't play smart with the English language in such an elementary way. It doesn't look good in print.

Now back to the topic....and the topic I put on the TABLE:

You want an Anglo/Welsh League when this current Pro12 deal ends? You want it and you think it possible, probable and a viable solution to Welsh Regional issues that PRL would embrace?

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I'd say Munster are more likely to sort out their finances with the sale of their 10 years tickets next season. The sale of those tickets brought in about 9m 10 years ago.

Which, of course, reduces income for the next 10 years.

You have a problem with getting 9m up front?

Anyway, if you have a 26K seater stadium, you more than likely won't lose out financially on the sale of 10 year tickets.

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Well I'm suggesting you might be a candidate for that category... em....... oh Phil will do.

Sure, happy to be shown so when Diageo come out with 'We only sponsored the PrO'12 for its brand exposure in Ireland'.

Do Guinness (as in brand) sponsor much in Wales? I know they sponsor the fanzone in the Millenium with WRU (and do something similar with RFU)?

It's a lovely day outside. Enough boardroom chat for one day. I'm off with my pen and paper to do some work outside.... with a cupo'tea

Tommorrow guys.

Sin é wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I'd say Munster are more likely to sort out their finances with the sale of their 10 years tickets next season. The sale of those tickets brought in about 9m 10 years ago.

Which, of course, reduces income for the next 10 years.

You have a problem with getting 9m up front?

Anyway, if you have a 26K seater stadium, you more than likely won't lose out financially on the sale of 10 year tickets.

Better a bird in the hand and all that

Not to mention they are hosting their first concert at Thomond in 3 years later this month, are looking into selling the naming rights, hosting the Maori team and have switched to one training base rather than two which cuts costs

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

profitius wrote:What I'd like to know is, why the fascination with Irish rugby finances.

They even have a sticky thread dedicated to 'Irish Rugby Wage Levels' on GWLAD. All seems a bit odd to me o0

That was there to disprove the narrative in Wales that PRW should be outperforming the Irish.

It even got to the point where ill informed idiots like Andy Howell were claiming that the Irish wage bills weren't that much higher than the then £3.5m cap in Wales. This was part of the narrative in support of Roger Lewis.

Therefore, of course, it was easily disproven and Howell and his ilk were easily discredited, again.

When you have a narrative in Wales that is anti-PRW, it is necessary to point to the differences in budgets between PRW teams and their opponents. Budgets, of course, being the base point of professional sport.

On top of that, the next most important thing in professional sport is transparency and honesty. We don't have that in our league, of course.

So now it shouldn't seems odd to you at all.

It's odd that it's a sticky

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:So back to the question, how to move the Pro12 forward?

It can't be. It's broken.

Even old Martin has worked that out. He wants 'conferences', which is testimony to Phillips having told him that the PrO'12 Regions is are of little interest in Wales.

Fixed that for you, and Phillips

Rather than reverting to the old bickering, is there actually any sustainable way that we can move the league forward?
If we take as a starting point that there is absolutely no appetite among the PRL/RFU to allow Welsh clubs into any form of the Jeff/Championship then where do we go ?
There may be in the future some sort of B & I league but that's a really long way off and unlikely to happen untll the professional divisions in England are sorted out.
So where do we look - we can't expand much more, maybe two clubs to make a Pro14, but where from, Ireland and Italy are stable as they are, Scotland might like another region (Borders) but probably hasn't got the money/resource to run it, and would Wales want another side ?
So do we look outside and maybe offer places to composite sides from Georgia, Romania, etc. ?
It is always going to be a "flawed" league in the sense that it's not a national one and is an artificial construct but it's what we have so must make the best of it.

If the league was to go to conferences then it would offer the opportunity to add more countries but I think we would end up with the situation we have with the Italians.

The best way to go for me may be to add another league with maybe a team each from the likes of Georgia, Romania etc with two conferences for central and eastern Europe. You could maybe even add the Irish A teams or a new Region for Wales and Scottish team made up of young players. These would cost less than a full province/region so would be more sustainable than previous incarnations.

This could be used to develop the emerging nations and the young players for the current Pro12 nations, add new markets to the league, grow the game in these countries and help to also grow the ERCC.

Italy are key in so many ways for the future of the Pro12, they need to be more competitive to drive up the standards of the league. If they can improve and grow the game there they have a population of 60m. That's attractive for tv networks and marketers. They also have some of the worlds biggest and most prestigious brands.

TV networks now are wanting more live tv because of how people consume tv now. Watching on catch up or through things like Netflix mean the advertising slots are worth less, they want more live programming so people have to watch live. This adds value to the Pro 12 and its tv package.

The Pro12 nations suffer because of their economies, the populations are worth a lot less than their English and French counterparts to marketers especially as they have the likes of London and Paris with their demographics etc.

PhilBB wrote:

profitius wrote:
Add minimal media coverage to that list.

That follows demand.

I am unsure as to why so many can't comprehend that the PrO'12 is of little interest in Wales.

Well thats a pity for Welsh rugby. The league is growing and interest in Ireland and Scotland is greater than ever. If the Welsh have no interest, they're going to get left behind. Its as simple as that.


I don't think some people can comprehend the power of positive and negative publicity. If something is being talked down or ignored all the time, naturally it leaves a bad impression on people. If something is being talked up all the time (like the aviva premiership) it does the opposite. It leaves a good impression and people get excited so are more likely to invest in it.


The minimal coverage in Wales of the semi finals and final isn't doing anything to help the regions.

SecretFly wrote:No answer to that will be coming your way as I'd be seen to mock you if I answered it.

I won't go down that road.  Suffice to say, don't play smart with the English language in such an elementary way.  It doesn't look good in print.

Now back to the topic....and the topic I put on the TABLE:  

You want an Anglo/Welsh League when this current Pro12 deal ends?  You want it and you think it possible, probable and a viable solution to Welsh Regional issues that PRL would embrace?

What table have you put this on?

I'd love an AW League. It is deliverable if BT Sport and Martyn Phillips back it.

Sin é wrote:

You have a problem with getting 9m up front?

Anyway, if you have a 26K seater stadium, you more than likely won't lose out financially on the sale of 10 year tickets.

From what I read, the state of the Munster economy makes €9m up front unlikely and then will create a huge hole in the annual budget thereafter, thus likely causing further annual losses.

With attendances on the wane, success a thing of the past and no Golden Generation or cash to pay for it, that 26k seater stadium looks way too big.

Sin é wrote:

Do Guinness (as in brand) sponsor much in Wales? I know they sponsor the fanzone in the Millenium with WRU (and do something similar with RFU)?

I can't think of specifics, but the branding is obviously everywhere.

marty2086 wrote:

Better a bird in the hand and all that

Not to mention they are hosting their first concert at Thomond in 3 years later this month, are looking into selling the naming rights, hosting the Maori team and have switched to one training base rather than two which cuts costs

No, Martyn. The bird isn't in Munster's hand. It goes back to the rest of Irish rugby.

Costs in rugby are rising beyond levels that the Irish could spend to win things. The pressure is ramping up. Good on them for increasing their income but when you look at €2.3m losses this year, a huge gap in season ticket income for the next ten years and the IRFU getting bored of their tactics, it is not looking rosy.

Munchkin wrote:
It's odd that it's a sticky

So it's easy to spot. And, therefore, easy to update to prove the initial analysis - much of the updating done by Cormac, an Irish Leinster fan living in Dublin.

So not odd at all.

Irish Londoner wrote:Rather than reverting to the old bickering, is there actually any sustainable way that we can move the league forward?
If we take as a starting point that there is absolutely no appetite among the PRL/RFU to allow Welsh clubs into any form of the Jeff/Championship then where do we go ?
There may be in the future some sort of B & I league but that's a really long way off and unlikely to happen untll the professional divisions in England are sorted out.
So where do we look - we can't expand much more, maybe two clubs to make a Pro14, but where from, Ireland and Italy are stable as they are, Scotland might like another region (Borders) but probably hasn't got the money/resource to run it, and would Wales want another side ?
So do we look outside and maybe offer places to composite sides from Georgia, Romania, etc. ?
It is always going to be a "flawed" league in the sense that it's not a national one and is an artificial construct but it's what we have so must make the best of it.

A B&I league won't happen until the Scots and Irish sell off their teams. That's the problem, not the 'professional divisions in England'.

I think that we have to realise that this drivel is the best its ever going to be. The only 'improvement' could be the conferences that just see more derbies.

marty2086 wrote:If the league was to go to conferences then it would offer the opportunity to add more countries

How does that work out, when you consider the aim is to not play during the international windows?

profitius wrote:
Well thats a pity for Welsh rugby. The league is growing and interest in Ireland and Scotland is greater than ever. If the Welsh have no interest, they're going to get left behind. Its as simple as that.

I don't think some people can comprehend the power of positive and negative publicity. If something is being talked down or ignored all the time, naturally it leaves a bad impression on people. If something is being talked up all the time (like the aviva premiership) it does the opposite. It leaves a good impression and people get excited so are more likely to invest in it.

The minimal coverage in Wales of the semi finals and final isn't doing anything to help the regions.

Growing in interest? Leinster crowds were down 16%. Munster crowds down 4%. Ulster crowds down 3%. Connacht crowds down 3%.

Glasgow and Edinburgh crowds did rise - to levels that are considered embarrassing when suffered by Welsh teams.

So 'getting left behind' doesn't seem to stack up with the facts.

I take your point about positive and negative publicity. You are right on this. Very right. But you must also realise that the sterile nature of PrO'12 rugby is not what the sporting public in Wales want or are used to. We want to watch rugby of local games surrounded by supporters of the opposition. That's our history.

The coverage of the semi and finals is utterly irrelevant to PRW.

Interesting article from Tom English...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/36422275

He does make a good point about playing so many Pro12 games during the International windows.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Interesting article from Tom English...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/36422275

He does make a good point about playing so many Pro12 games during the International windows.

He seems to think that Llanelli have recruited Rhys Priestland.

When did that happen?

He can't even be bothered to work out the actual decrease in crowds on international weekend and he can't point to the fact that Connacht's success this season is because of there being so many international weekends.

It's a pretty poorly written piece.

PhilBB wrote:
I take your point about positive and negative publicity. You are right on this. Very right. But you must also realise that the sterile nature of PrO'12 rugby is not what the sporting public in Wales want or are used to. We want to watch rugby of local games surrounded by supporters of the opposition. That's our history.

And you can continue to do that but unless you can sustain it yourself then don't expect it to be professional rugby.

rodders wrote:
And you can continue to do that but unless you can sustain it yourself then don't expect it to be professional rugby.

True.

Which is why Phillips should be working very hard with PRW and BT Sport to provide season long competition with English clubs.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Better a bird in the hand and all that

Not to mention they are hosting their first concert at Thomond in 3 years later this month, are looking into selling the naming rights, hosting the Maori team and have switched to one training base rather than two which cuts costs

No, Martyn. The bird isn't in Munster's hand. It goes back to the rest of Irish rugby.

Costs in rugby are rising beyond levels that the Irish could spend to win things. The pressure is ramping up. Good on them for increasing their income but when you look at €2.3m losses this year, a huge gap in season ticket income for the next ten years and the IRFU getting bored of their tactics, it is not looking rosy.

Where is the gap in income? There is no guarantee that they will sell these if they wait, so better to sell them now and guarantee the income which if I am not mistaken is done in instalments so wheres the huge gap?

How exactly does it go back to the rest of Irish rugby?

marty2086 wrote:
Where is the gap in income? There is no guarantee that they will sell these if they wait, so better to sell them now and guarantee the income which if I am not mistaken is done in instalments so wheres the huge gap?

How exactly does it go back to the rest of Irish rugby?

Dearie me.

The gap in income is the lost annual revenue from the season tickets as that money has disappeared to pay off the €4.2m you wisely noted is due soon.

It goes back to the rest of Irish rugby as it is paid to the IRFU who can then spend it on the domestic game, for example.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Where is the gap in income? There is no guarantee that they will sell these if they wait, so better to sell them now and guarantee the income which if I am not mistaken is done in instalments so wheres the huge gap?

How exactly does it go back to the rest of Irish rugby?

Dearie me.

The gap in income is the lost annual revenue from the season tickets as that money has disappeared to pay off the €4.2m you wisely noted is due soon.

It goes back to the rest of Irish rugby as it is paid to the IRFU who can then spend it on the domestic game, for example.

As stated, the tickets aren't paid for in one lump sum so they guarantee a sum going forward. If you were as clued in as you like people to think you would know the importance of cashflow to a business.

The ticket money doesn't go to the IRFU it stays with Munster

marty2086 wrote:
As stated, the tickets aren't paid for in one lump sum so they guarantee a sum going forward. If you were as clued in as you like people to think you would know the importance of cashflow to a business.

The ticket money doesn't go to the IRFU it stays with Munster

The cashflow is about to be hit for €4.2m. The business cannot sustain that right now. It needs the 'hit' from the season tickets to pay the €4.2m to the IRFU.

Therefore, your final sentence is hilarious when you consider the previous one. You can't even follow the conversation from Sin's point about the 10 year money paying off the debt.

Can you point me to the terms of sale for the next 10 year season ticket? Thanks.

Yes their cashflow will be hit but the 10 year ticket setup predates the loan, I'd assume the structure of repayments are based around this. If it wasn't done this way I'm sure you'd still be bitching

Given they are accessing other income streams on top of the tickets their cashflow should be fine.

Why don't you Google the Ts&Cs like you do everything else?

Maybe you can answer the question from yesterday though as how this all relates to moving the Pro12 forward?

marty2086 wrote:Yes their cashflow will be hit but the 10 year ticket setup predates the loan, I'd assume the structure of repayments are based around this. If it wasn't done this way I'm sure you'd still be bitching

Given they are accessing other income streams on top of the tickets their cashflow should be fine.

Why don't you Google the Ts&Cs like you do everything else?

Maybe you can answer the question from yesterday though as how this all relates to moving the Pro12 forward?

Ah, so you're assuming.

Their cashflow is €2.3m the wrong way this year. That's a big turnaround you're predicting.

I did Google the Ts & Cs. I didn't find an answer, hence I knew you were 'assuming'.

This doesn't relate to the PrO'12 moving forward. Maybe you could now answer the question on 3.1 on the Bye Laws on Munster Branch IRFU. Could you?

Or will you continue to 'assume'?

PhilBB wrote:

rodders wrote:
And you can continue to do that but unless you can sustain it yourself then don't expect it to be professional rugby.

True.

Which is why Phillips should be working very hard with PRW and BT Sport to provide season long competition with English clubs.

And why would English clubs be interested in that exactly?

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:No answer to that will be coming your way as I'd be seen to mock you if I answered it.

I won't go down that road.  Suffice to say, don't play smart with the English language in such an elementary way.  It doesn't look good in print.

Now back to the topic....and the topic I put on the TABLE:  

You want an Anglo/Welsh League when this current Pro12 deal ends?  You want it and you think it possible, probable and a viable solution to Welsh Regional issues that PRL would embrace?

What table have you put this on?

I'd love an AW League. It is deliverable if BT Sport and Martyn Phillips back it.

So we've established that's your ideal.  The Welsh and English alone in their own League and no-worries about the others (Scots, Irish, Italians) - they can do what they want, none of your concern.

Fine.  That's actually a grand platform to actually Begin a REAL discussion on Pro12.  That's a genuine opinion.  

Now, I do wish you'd stick to that ideal through all other discussions on this topic.  

Improving the Pro12 is not on your agenda.  Closing it down is.  It's a false argument that you engage in when you discuss the problems within the League.  The League itself is fundamentally wrong.  You don't want your Regions involved in a Multi-National Leagus that spreads out as far as Galway in the West and Italy in the East.  You want a 'domestic' League - no seas to cross, no planes or boats to catch.  
You don't care about IRFU finances, you're waiting for the end of the Pro12 contract and hoping WRU want dramatic change by then and decide they'd prefer drop the sham of Pro12 and push 'their' Regions into a closed Anglo Welsh League.

That's grand.  Better start that campaign early though, Phil.  You should be writing threads already pushing for that future and trying to engage the PRL fans more.  You should be popping up much more frequently on AP threads than Pro12 threads....enthusing and motivating the English, getting them ready for the new way when Pro12 contract is up.

When is the latest Pro12 contract up anyway, anyone?

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Yes their cashflow will be hit but the 10 year ticket setup predates the loan, I'd assume the structure of repayments are based around this. If it wasn't done this way I'm sure you'd still be bitching

Given they are accessing other income streams on top of the tickets their cashflow should be fine.

Why don't you Google the Ts&Cs like you do everything else?

Maybe you can answer the question from yesterday though as how this all relates to moving the Pro12 forward?

Ah, so you're assuming.

Their cashflow is €2.3m the wrong way this year. That's a big turnaround you're predicting.

I did Google the Ts & Cs. I didn't find an answer, hence I knew you were 'assuming'.

This doesn't relate to the PrO'12 moving forward. Maybe you could now answer the question on 3.1 on the Bye Laws on Munster Branch IRFU. Could you?

Or will you continue to 'assume'?

No Einstein I assume the structure of the loan repayments are based around the 10 year ticket sales

I thought there was just a statement from you about the bye laws but again none of that is relevant to this thread

Seems you just like to air your grievances about the evils of Irish rugby, is a therapist not something you would consider? Or does the complexes you seem to have prevent you accepting the idea of seeing one?

rodders wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

rodders wrote:
And you can continue to do that but unless you can sustain it yourself then don't expect it to be professional rugby.

True.

Which is why Phillips should be working very hard with PRW and BT Sport to provide season long competition with English clubs.

And why would English clubs be interested in that exactly?

The goodness of their heart would be the answer, sure why wouldn't they want to bring in organisations that are constantly bickering and complaining and driving down income?

rodders wrote:
And why would English clubs be interested in that exactly?

More local derbies for Worcester, Gloucester, Bristol, Bath and Exeter. And BT Sport's interest would require increase in revenue for all.

SecretFly wrote:
So we've established that's your ideal.  The Welsh and English alone in their own League and no-worries about the others (Scots, Irish, Italians) - they can do what they want, none of your concern.

Fine.  That's actually a grand platform to actually Begin a REAL discussion on Pro12.  That's a genuine opinion.  

Now, I do wish you'd stick to that ideal through all other discussions on this topic.  

Improving the Pro12 is not on your agenda.  Closing it down is.  It's a false argument that you engage in when you discuss the problems within the League.  The League itself is fundamentally wrong.  You don't want your Regions involved in a Multi-National Leagus that spreads out as far as Galway in the West and Italy in the East.  You want a 'domestic' League - no seas to cross, no planes or boats to catch.  
You don't care about IRFU finances, you're waiting for the end of the Pro12 contract and hoping WRU want dramatic change by then and decide they'd prefer drop the sham of Pro12 and push 'their' Regions into a closed Anglo Welsh League.

That's grand.  Better start that campaign early though, Phil.  You should be writing threads already pushing for that future and trying to engage the PRL fans more.  You should be popping up much more frequently on AP threads than Pro12 threads....enthusing and motivating the English, getting them ready for the new way when Pro12 contract is up.

When is the latest Pro12 contract up anyway, anyone?

Message boards have zero influence, Eric.

And, for the record, I've no issue with a B&I League. Just as long as no Union owned teams enter.

marty2086 wrote:

No Einstein I assume the structure of the loan repayments are based around the 10 year ticket sales

I thought there was just a statement from you about the bye laws but again none of that is relevant to this thread

Seems you just like to air your grievances about the evils of Irish rugby, is a therapist not something you would consider? Or does the complexes you seem to have prevent you accepting the idea of seeing one?

You're assuming a lot about this 10 year tickets, fair play. Including, I 'assume', how €5,500 tickets will cover a €4.2m loan repayment that is on the horizon.

The Bye Laws reference was a question as to the ownership of the IRFU Munster Branch. I can see that you can't answer it. Funny.

No need for a therapist, Champ. There's too much fun in blowing open the complete ignorance most Irish rugby followers have of that system.

Ulster Rugby Ltd..... chuckle.