The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

First topic message reminder :

I am posting this so that we can talk about rugby, yes I will use links from the media to create a discussion, and whether you agree with them or not, it is not me saying them. 

So, the Pro12, how could it move forward, for me there are one or two bones of contention for me, and that is the refereeing situation we find ourselves in, and the two Italian sides, firstly I will speak about the Italian sides, they have been here for a few years now and they are getting worse, now whether that is because of the fall out with the CC or not, the simple fact is they are not adding much to the league other than a banker five points when they travel and the odd banana skin when teams travel to play them. I would not like to see the Italians cut adrift, but at the same time they seriously need to up their game, at the moment they look as if they do not want to be here and are just waiting for the season to end, recent results have reflected this. I also think, that at the moment a place in the top tier of Europe is a waste for them, they will never win that competition with the state they are in at the moment and I think it would be far more beneficial for them to play in the second tier where they would have a better chance of picking up results and giving them more confidence. Jonathan Davies was pretty scathing about them on Scrum V on Sunday night:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/36068740

Now I do not agree with him when it comes to ditching the Italians, but he does make a good point. Something needs to be seriously looked at when we are considering the two Italian teams, what would you suggest ?

Secondly I will talk about our refereeing situation, I am very uncomfortable with the status quo we find ourselves in at the moment when it comes to the referees, I am not comfortable that we are in a situation where the unions employ the referees AND the players. This leads to calls of potential bias, and the union controlled teams bringing their own refs with them, I think the referees should be employed by a central organisation, not the unions, and I think that the central organisation should be the league itself, the money the unions pay the refs should be payed to the league and then the league should have direct control over the referees. The league should then have a remit of how the refs should perform, and all the refs should be singing from the same hymn sheet, not that of their respective unions. Only when something like this happens will we see an improvement.

I would also like to talk about an article I read on WOL that Jeremy Guscott scratched upon, and states that we should be improving our brand of rugby to be able to compete with the French and English, also he has pointed out that because our CC players are restricted to the amount of games they can play, they hamper the teams involved, this I agree with, and I would rather we rested our players for Europe and played them more in the league. Guscott says that because there is no relegation from the Pro12 then there should be no excuses for us not playing a better brand of rugby. Anyway here's the link if anyone is interested:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-legend-tells-welsh-regions-11202285

Do you agree with Jeremy Guscott ?

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Just answer the question and admit the logical truth - it's as clear as daylight.  The PRL(AP) don't need to add/absorb the Pro12 into its makeup to steal the Pro12 market share and add it to their own.  You don't want to contemplate the truth of that but the logic is clear.

....back to 'sarcasm' as an example - and the Premiership v League of Ireland.

If you can't keep your own arguments corralled in logic then nobody else is going to do the work for you.

True, they don't need it all. Just the Welsh teams. We got there, finally.

Ha, you wish!

Aviva Premiership Rugby made its debut on BT Sport two weekends ago – with last weekend’s match between Bath Rugby and Leicester Tigers leading the way, attracting a peak audience of 185,000 and an average of 146,000 for the match, according to the Broadcasters' Audience Research Board.

No date on that info.

BARB says that Leicester v Bath viewing figures were 131K fixture last year:erm: .

PhilBB wrote:You're aware of the last HoT on this AW League, right?

No what does that mean ?

I see phill is still fluttering his eyelashes at the PRL hoping uncle nige will come sweep him off his feet.

Its dead phill. BT won't fund it. The rfu won't allow it.

And anyone else find it odd that big Nige has just done the double yet he's been very very quite? Wonder why

carpet baboon wrote:I see phill is still fluttering his eyelashes at the PRL hoping uncle nige will come sweep him off his feet.

Its dead phill. BT won't fund it. The rfu won't allow it.

And anyone else find it odd that big Nige has just done the double yet he's been very very quite? Wonder why

..a mouthful of extra undeclared cash?

So Phil, to cut to the chase, what possible reasons would PRL and the RFU have for letting in the Welsh (and only the Welsh) teams to the Premiership ? Other than some Welsh people want it ?

Irish Londoner wrote:So Phil, to cut to the chase, what possible reasons would PRL and the RFU have for letting in the Welsh (and only the Welsh) teams to the Premiership ? Other than some Welsh people want it ?

Neither do. The rfu don't , the PRL use the region's to stir up trouble to try and get what they want from the RFU.
Phill has issues

The Pro12 and certainly the Welsh Regions currently have nothing to offer or bring to the table in the way of enticing the RFU or PRL into a deal.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:No we haven't. Can you provide Saracens? I don't think you'll be able to. Saying English clubs can spend up to x pounds isn't telling us they do.

Which clubs do you think don't? Let's start there and then we can find the links to disprove you.

Cool, cheers. Don't think Saracens are this season can you provide the link please? Thanks in advance.

Sounded as if you were prepared to provide that link Phil. So you got it to show what Saracens wage bill is?

I was able to provide the link as to who spends to the cap, but that's a million miles from your lie of 'exact' player salary bill.

Care to retract that?

Irish Londoner wrote:

PhilBB wrote:You're aware of the last HoT on this AW League, right?

No what does that mean ?

It means do some research on the terms of the Heads of Terms agreement as it will answer much of the stuff you wrote in that post.

Irish Londoner wrote:So Phil, to cut to the chase, what possible reasons would PRL and the RFU have for letting in the Welsh (and only the Welsh) teams to the Premiership ? Other than some Welsh people want it ?

Cut to the chase? How about you read this entire thread as it has all been answered before.

bedfordwelsh wrote:The Pro12 and certainly the Welsh Regions currently have nothing to offer or bring to the table in the way of enticing the RFU or PRL into a deal.

Completely untrue. For starters, they have four teams within easy travel distance of almost half AP teams and more within just a little further distance.

Why do you think BT Sport is involved with PRW?

carpet baboon wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:So Phil, to cut to the chase, what possible reasons would PRL and the RFU have for letting in the Welsh (and only the Welsh) teams to the Premiership ? Other than some Welsh people want it ?

Neither do. The rfu don't , the PRL use the region's to stir up trouble to try and get what they want from the RFU.
Phill has issues

That's funny.

To be fair, although I agree, the Welsh probably have nothing to offer, we do have a long and esteemed history with the English clubs especially the border clubs. 

There used to be an old merit table, and I especially remember the old boxing day clashes between Cardiff and Gloucester.

LordDowlais wrote:To be fair, although I agree, the Welsh probably have nothing to offer, we do have a long and esteemed history with the English clubs especially the border clubs. 

There used to be an old merit table, and I especially remember the old boxing day clashes between Cardiff and Gloucester.

You do? In what year would those games have been played on Boxing Day?

LordDowlais wrote:To be fair, although I agree, the Welsh probably have nothing to offer, we do have a long and esteemed history with the English clubs especially the border clubs. 

There used to be an old merit table, and I especially remember the old boxing day clashes between Cardiff and Gloucester.

Yes, some of these Anglo Welsh clashes over the years have been fantastic and I would happily watch them again.

Here is one of the only links I could provide to show some of the teams involved:-

http://www.gloucesterrugbyheritage.org.uk/page/proposed_anglo-welsh_league

There were a few more as the years rolled on though.

So there were regular fixtures between the two countries. Teams involved were:-

Cardiff
Coventry

Llanelli

Moseley

London Welsh

Newport

Bridgend

Bedford

Gloucester

Bristol
Neath
Leicester 
Aberavon 
Northampton 
Rosslyn Park 
Swansea 
Harlequins 
Richmond 
Bath  
Blackheath

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:To be fair, although I agree, the Welsh probably have nothing to offer, we do have a long and esteemed history with the English clubs especially the border clubs. 

There used to be an old merit table, and I especially remember the old boxing day clashes between Cardiff and Gloucester.

You do? In what year would those games have been played on Boxing Day?

It was in the 80's, perhaps it was not boxing day, but it was definitely over the Christmas period.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:No we haven't. Can you provide Saracens? I don't think you'll be able to. Saying English clubs can spend up to x pounds isn't telling us they do.

Which clubs do you think don't? Let's start there and then we can find the links to disprove you.

Cool, cheers. Don't think Saracens are this season can you provide the link please? Thanks in advance.

Sounded as if you were prepared to provide that link Phil. So you got it to show what Saracens wage bill is?

I was able to provide the link as to who spends to the cap, but that's a million miles from your lie of 'exact' player salary bill.

Care to retract that?

Didn't see it, where's the link please? Surely it would have to show wage bills otherwise you wouldn't know who is spending to the cap. You seem to be backtracking.

LordDowlais wrote:To be fair, although I agree, the Welsh probably have nothing to offer, we do have a long and esteemed history with the English clubs especially the border clubs. 

There used to be an old merit table, and I especially remember the old boxing day clashes between Cardiff and Gloucester.

Your right they do have history. But it's one that the PRL have no interest in anymore

LordDowlais wrote:
It was in the 80's, perhaps it was not boxing day, but it was definitely over the Christmas period.

Sorry, your memory is playing tricks on you. You've got that one wrong.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Didn't see it, where's the link please? Surely it would have to show wage bills otherwise you wouldn't know who is spending to the cap. You seem to be backtracking.

Nope. Try again. You made the false claim. I pointed out the accounts don't break down wages by playing and non-playing staff.

I showed you links previously in which club officials noted their clubs were spending to the cap. You've had the information already.

Very poor tactics from you, very poor.

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/news/premiershiprugbysevens/39486.php#KfUwPlUD7gvLltWC.97

Hmmmm.

PhilBB wrote:http://www.premiershiprugby.com/news/premiershiprugbysevens/39486.php#KfUwPlUD7gvLltWC.97

Hmmmm.

What exactly is your point?

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
It was in the 80's, perhaps it was not boxing day, but it was definitely over the Christmas period.

Sorry, your memory is playing tricks on you. You've got that one wrong.

NO it isn't I remember my father taking me as a kid. Why are you like this on here Phil ? You are turning people away from a forum to talk about rugby, you just want to always cause a punch up. You are turning people away from this forum, I come back after having weeks break from you, and you are still on here always trying to prove people wrong. 

FFS, lets talk about rugby.

carpet baboon wrote:

PhilBB wrote:http://www.premiershiprugby.com/news/premiershiprugbysevens/39486.php#KfUwPlUD7gvLltWC.97

Hmmmm.

What exactly is your point?

Obviously little interest between PRL and PWR, no common links at all.

LordDowlais wrote:

NO it isn't I remember my father taking me as a kid. Why are you like this on here Phil ? You are turning people away from a forum to talk about rugby, you just want to always cause a punch up. You are turning people away from this forum, I come back after having weeks break from you, and you are still on here always trying to prove people wrong. 

FFS, lets talk about rugby.

You can to to cardiffrfc.com and search through the results from each year. They didn't play Gloucester over the Christmas period in the 80s.

The rest is fanciful nonsense.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Didn't see it, where's the link please? Surely it would have to show wage bills otherwise you wouldn't know who is spending to the cap. You seem to be backtracking.

Nope. Try again. You made the false claim. I pointed out the accounts don't break down wages by playing and non-playing staff.

I showed you links previously in which club officials noted their clubs were spending to the cap. You've had the information already.

Very poor tactics from you, very poor.

Oh , I take by this massive back track you can't do what you said you were going to then!

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Oh , I take by this massive back track you can't do what you said you were going to then!

Making false claims seems to be habitual to you. I'll politely call it that, rather than what I suspect it might be.

You know full well of the evidence presented to you, clearly, previously in this thread. It's a shame that duplicitous behaviour is your preferred manner.

Been on that link Phil, there is nothing to show fixtures from the 80's.


I'll tell you what, I will leave this forum for a little longer. I cannot stick debating like, this, I just want to talk about rugby, I am fed up of having to prove myself at every friggin corner. This is not debating, this is a p1ssing contest.

Phil, well done, you are ruining yet another forum.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Oh , I take by this massive back track you can't do what you said you were going to then!

Making false claims seems to be habitual to you. I'll politely call it that, rather than what I suspect it might be.

You know full well of the evidence presented to you, clearly, previously in this thread. It's a shame that duplicitous behaviour is your preferred manner.

You've not provided anything, you made a claim and couldn't back, still can't. You said if I thought there was a club not spending to the cap sat who it was and you'd have a look for a link. Well, I did that and now that you know you can't you're back tracking.

LordDowlais wrote:Been on that link Phil, there is nothing to show fixtures from the 80's.

Go to:

On the field
Fixtures and results
Slide the bar rightwards to the annual fixtures.

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

PhilBB wrote:http://www.premiershiprugby.com/news/premiershiprugbysevens/39486.php#KfUwPlUD7gvLltWC.97

Hmmmm.

What exactly is your point?

Obviously little interest between PRL and PWR, no common links at all.

Yeah phill 7s will lead to the invitation for the region's to join the premiership. Any straw you can grasp hey phill

No 7&1/2 wrote:
You've not provided anything, you made a claim and couldn't back, still can't. You said if I thought there was a club not spending to the cap sat who it was and you'd have a look for a link. Well, I did that and now that you know you can't you're back tracking.

Hang on, NOW you're accurately noting what I actually wrote. So why did you write the previous nonsense about 'exact salary spend'?

carpet baboon wrote:

Yeah phill 7s will lead to the invitation for the region's to join the premiership. Any straw you can grasp hey phill

If I'd meant that, I'd have written it myself.

But, nice try.

LordDowlais wrote:
I'll tell you what, I will leave this forum for a little longer. I cannot stick debating like, this, I just want to talk about rugby, I am fed up of having to prove myself at every friggin corner. This is not debating, this is a p1ssing contest.

Phil, well done, you are ruining yet another forum.

Drivel.

All that I've done is pointed out that you got it wrong. If you're going to play the character you do here, be prepared to be shown to be wrong.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
You've not provided anything, you made a claim and couldn't back, still can't. You said if I thought there was a club not spending to the cap sat who it was and you'd have a look for a link. Well, I did that and now that you know you can't you're back tracking.

Hang on, NOW you're accurately noting what I actually wrote. So why did you write the previous nonsense about 'exact salary spend'?

It's the same thing. You won't be able to say a team will spend up to the cap, below, or over without being able to say their exact spend. Are you going back to there is a salary cap and you assume but don't know if teams spend this?

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

Yeah phill 7s will lead to the invitation for the region's to join the premiership. Any straw you can grasp hey phill

If I'd meant that, I'd have written it myself.

But, nice try.

Phill you are quite the man aint you. Can't debate with facts so you spend your days in fantasy land.
The RFU will never allow the region's or any welsh based club to join the premiership. The WRU will not allow it. The PRL's main talker has been found out. Many many people in the PRL, RFU and BT sport no longer trust him or his whispered promises of golden lands ahead. His ship has ran aground and no one is interested in helping him out.

So you keep dreaming phill, be the king of your imaginary kingdom, as every single poster on this site has seen right through you.
Enjoy you victories in your made up game, as in the real world they count for nothing.

Hope you enjoy Cardiff's continued participation in the pro12, I know I will

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
I'll tell you what, I will leave this forum for a little longer. I cannot stick debating like, this, I just want to talk about rugby, I am fed up of having to prove myself at every friggin corner. This is not debating, this is a p1ssing contest.

Phil, well done, you are ruining yet another forum.

Drivel.

All that I've done is pointed out that you got it wrong. If you're going to play the character you do here, be prepared to be shown to be wrong.

Phil even a cursory search by me to find evidence of a Cardiff Gloucester match at Christmas in the 80s was easily found: http://www.gloucesterrugbyheritage.org.uk/documents/621229.pdf

I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to turn up more in more than two minutes. Maybe try to be a bit less rigid in your arguments, particularly with people who remember being there.

...........60s?

Get rid of that quick, Marshes. I'll pretend I never saw it and keep an eye out.

Gloucester did play Cardiff in 83 (21/9)

>>aha!<<

Ok, it's not Christmas, and not at CAP

Closest CAP game is in November 91 AHA!ButNotReally

Marshes wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
I'll tell you what, I will leave this forum for a little longer. I cannot stick debating like, this, I just want to talk about rugby, I am fed up of having to prove myself at every friggin corner. This is not debating, this is a p1ssing contest.

Phil, well done, you are ruining yet another forum.

Drivel.

All that I've done is pointed out that you got it wrong. If you're going to play the character you do here, be prepared to be shown to be wrong.

Phil even a cursory search by me to find evidence of a Cardiff Gloucester match at Christmas in the 80s was easily found: http://www.gloucesterrugbyheritage.org.uk/documents/621229.pdf

I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to turn up more in more than two minutes. Maybe try to be a bit less rigid in your arguments, particularly with people who remember being there.

Ah now marshes you clearly don't understand phills rules.
He is always correct, as he has the only copy of the rules and he wont let us see them.
He is also the only person that is allowed make any statement without providing any evidence, yet the rest of us have to provide at least two swore testimony's to support anything at all and even then he has veto over all information.

And if you really upset him he may call you champ. And say something like "nice try" just to show his superior Interlect.

carpet baboon wrote:

Ah now marshes you clearly don't understand phills rules.
He is always correct, as he has the only copy of the rules and he wont let us see them.
He is also the only person that is allowed make any statement without providing any evidence, yet the rest of us have to provide at least two swore testimony's to support anything at all and even then he has veto over all information.

And if you really upset him he may call you champ. And say something like "nice try" just to show his superior Intellect.

What a fine synopsis of a Philagynous Personality type.

SecretFly wrote:...........60s?

Get rid of that quick, Marshes.  I'll pretend I never saw it and keep an eye out.

Oops! Nope, hold my hands up, I was wrong on the internet again Apologies all!

oddly looking back through the fixtures (http://www.gloucesterrugbyheritage.org.uk/category/gloucester), its seems Gloucester played Newport a lot over Christmas in the 80s, maybe that was it

Just delete it. We won't mind and it'll keep Phil at room temperature.

...it must have been one of the games Lord attended.  Lord gave in too quickly on his own memories back there.  If I were his memories, I'd feel like walking out on the guy due to his lack of loyalty.

PhilBB wrote:http://www.premiershiprugby.com/news/premiershiprugbysevens/39486.php#KfUwPlUD7gvLltWC.97

Hmmmm.

This is being held at the Millennium so is a day out for Welsh fans and a money maker for the WRU and PRW. Are you going ? Hope you have nice day.

Irish Londoner wrote:

This is being held at the Millennium so is a day out for Welsh fans and a money maker for the WRU and PRW. Are you going ? Hope you have nice day.

It says the arms park in the clipping. so i'm not sure the wru would make money.

Dai Llewod wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

This is being held at the Millennium so is a day out for Welsh fans and a money maker for the WRU and PRW. Are you going ? Hope you have nice day.

It says the arms park in the clipping. so i'm not sure the wru would make money.

Apologies, money for The Blues then ! I would advise going, went to the London one at The Stoop and it's a fun night out and not too serious, a bit like 20/20 cricket.