The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

First topic message reminder :

I am posting this so that we can talk about rugby, yes I will use links from the media to create a discussion, and whether you agree with them or not, it is not me saying them. 

So, the Pro12, how could it move forward, for me there are one or two bones of contention for me, and that is the refereeing situation we find ourselves in, and the two Italian sides, firstly I will speak about the Italian sides, they have been here for a few years now and they are getting worse, now whether that is because of the fall out with the CC or not, the simple fact is they are not adding much to the league other than a banker five points when they travel and the odd banana skin when teams travel to play them. I would not like to see the Italians cut adrift, but at the same time they seriously need to up their game, at the moment they look as if they do not want to be here and are just waiting for the season to end, recent results have reflected this. I also think, that at the moment a place in the top tier of Europe is a waste for them, they will never win that competition with the state they are in at the moment and I think it would be far more beneficial for them to play in the second tier where they would have a better chance of picking up results and giving them more confidence. Jonathan Davies was pretty scathing about them on Scrum V on Sunday night:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/36068740

Now I do not agree with him when it comes to ditching the Italians, but he does make a good point. Something needs to be seriously looked at when we are considering the two Italian teams, what would you suggest ?

Secondly I will talk about our refereeing situation, I am very uncomfortable with the status quo we find ourselves in at the moment when it comes to the referees, I am not comfortable that we are in a situation where the unions employ the referees AND the players. This leads to calls of potential bias, and the union controlled teams bringing their own refs with them, I think the referees should be employed by a central organisation, not the unions, and I think that the central organisation should be the league itself, the money the unions pay the refs should be payed to the league and then the league should have direct control over the referees. The league should then have a remit of how the refs should perform, and all the refs should be singing from the same hymn sheet, not that of their respective unions. Only when something like this happens will we see an improvement.

I would also like to talk about an article I read on WOL that Jeremy Guscott scratched upon, and states that we should be improving our brand of rugby to be able to compete with the French and English, also he has pointed out that because our CC players are restricted to the amount of games they can play, they hamper the teams involved, this I agree with, and I would rather we rested our players for Europe and played them more in the league. Guscott says that because there is no relegation from the Pro12 then there should be no excuses for us not playing a better brand of rugby. Anyway here's the link if anyone is interested:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-legend-tells-welsh-regions-11202285

Do you agree with Jeremy Guscott ?

The PRO12 was being blamed for everything on twitter last night #ItsThePro12sFault

Well Shaun Edwards claimed it was the pro12s fault Wales were sh*t against England as the league aint good enough.
A league so bad only one of the 4 welsh regions finished in the top half.

Nothing on tv for Phil to watch last night?

Given that Gatland was keen to bring players back to Wales and the Pro 12 does that mean its also his fault?

carpet baboon wrote:Well Shaun Edwards claimed it was the pro12s fault Wales were sh*t against England as the league aint good enough.
A league so bad only one of the 4 welsh regions finished in the top half.

Are these guys being paid by Nigel Wray? The Pro12 League is crap and ensured that Welsh Players couldn't handle England on the very weekend of the Pro12 Final?

Am I missing something here in the synchronicity of excuses?

Maybe if an International game against England wasn't pencilled in on Pro12 Final weekend, the Welsh boys might have had an incentive to be good enough in Pro12 to be able to beat England at a latter date?

No? Too much logic, Shaun? Not fitting in with the continuing Welsh Campaign to Join the AP?

carpet baboon wrote:Well Shaun Edwards claimed it was the pro12s fault Wales were sh*t against England as the league aint good enough.
A league so bad only one of the 4 welsh regions finished in the top half.

Never took Edwards to be such a negative whinger, maybe he doesn't really believe that and he's just toeing the popular Welsh media line in dissing the Pro12 without any logic or evidence?

Alternatively maybe his brain is now more akin to King Edwards rather than Shaun Edwards - at least that would explain the number of chips on his shoulder.

I still don't see why they can't compute the glaring synchronicity.  Welsh Regions, only four of them - are told in December of the preceding year that an International against old foes England has been pencilled in on the very weekend of a Pro12 Final.

What's that telling the Regions? What's it telling Regional players? The game against England at the end of the season will go a good way to determining who gets to go on tour to New Zealand. That's what it's saying. It's ignoring Pro12.  And Edwards and Welsh fans then hop on the "Pro12 ain't good enough" bandwagon?

How could it be when so little respect is given to it by Welsh International coaches and the WRU itself

Well maybe he has joined phill in hoping big Nige will come and save them. Shame it's ever going to happen.
But it does make me chuckle watching them stare wistfully over the border while the PRL (well nige and his pals) wink at them whispering soon soon, why all the time knowing it won't ever come true.

Sin é wrote:The PRO12 was being blamed for everything on twitter last night #ItsThePro12sFault

A great response to the likes of Shaun Edwards.

profitius wrote:

Sin é wrote:The PRO12 was being blamed for everything on twitter last night #ItsThePro12sFault

A great response to the likes of Shaun Edwards.

Maybe we should start dealing with Phil that way, Im waiting on him blaming the Irish for JFK and credit crunch

Some of the comments are hilarious.

Like this one:

Morag ‏@moragkatie  Jun 8
Supermassive Black Hole found to be a reality. Cardiff due to disappear #ItsThePro12sFault

Stick that in your pipe Edwards  

No 7&1/2 wrote:
It's the same thing. You won't be able to say a team will spend up to the cap, below, or over without being able to say their exact spend. Are you going back to there is a salary cap and you assume but don't know if teams spend this?

It's quite possible to read club officials noting their spend levels, to the cap or otherwise, without an absolute figure required, as has been shown in previous links presented to you.

carpet baboon wrote:
Phill you are quite the man aint you. Can't debate with facts so you spend your days in fantasy land.
The RFU will never allow the region's or any welsh based club to join the premiership. The WRU will not allow it. The PRL's main talker has been found out. Many many people in the PRL, RFU and BT sport no longer trust him or his whispered promises of golden lands ahead. His ship has ran aground and no one is interested in helping him out.

So you keep dreaming phill, be the king of your imaginary kingdom, as every single poster on this site has seen right through you.
Enjoy you victories in your made up game, as in the real world they count for nothing.

Hope you enjoy Cardiff's continued participation in the pro12, I know I will

What a lovely set of 'facts' you've presented there.

Marshes wrote:

Phil even a cursory search by me to find evidence of a Cardiff Gloucester match at Christmas in the 80s was easily found: http://www.gloucesterrugbyheritage.org.uk/documents/621229.pdf

I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to turn up more in more than two minutes. Maybe try to be a bit less rigid in your arguments, particularly with people who remember being there.

That's 1962. Not the 80s.

Irish Londoner wrote:

PhilBB wrote:http://www.premiershiprugby.com/news/premiershiprugbysevens/39486.php#KfUwPlUD7gvLltWC.97

Hmmmm.

This is being held at the Millennium so is a day out for Welsh fans and a money maker for the WRU and PRW. Are you going ? Hope you have nice day.

Clearly you have not read the link if you think the venue is the 'Millennium'

carpet baboon wrote:Well maybe he has joined phill in hoping big Nige will come and save them. Shame it's ever going to happen.
But it does make me chuckle watching them stare wistfully over the border while the PRL (well nige and his pals) wink at them whispering soon soon, why all the time knowing it won't ever come true.

Ah, more 'facts'.

HAL has awoken!

It's taken him long enough. Think he has been locked in a room building up his arsenal of powerful put downs to show us all how clever he is.

Friendly place, this.

Smell the fear.

carpet baboon wrote:Well Shaun Edwards claimed it was the pro12s fault Wales were sh*t against England as the league aint good enough.
A league so bad only one of the 4 welsh regions finished in the top half.

He's close - it's the fault of the regions and not the entire Pro12. They simply aren't good enough at developing players, they're 15 years behind NZ teams according to kiwi coaches. Until this changes we'll be (with a good national coach) where we are now, a stagnant position. Since the 6N there's clear evidence of England and Ireland improving, and none to support that theory with Wales.

Could you direct me to the tweet btw?

mikey_dragon wrote:
He's close - it's the fault of the regions and not the entire Pro12. They simply aren't good enough at developing players, they're 15 years behind NZ teams according to kiwi coaches. Until this changes we'll be (with a good national coach) where we are now, a stagnant position. Since the 6N there's clear evidence of England and Ireland improving, and none to support that theory with Wales.

Could you direct me to the tweet btw?

If it is the fault of PRW and not the PrO'12, how do you explain the relative international performances in the last, say, 5 years?

It seems to me that Team Wales has a fairly strong record against Ireland, Scotland and England in that period, but Ireland and England have a better record against SANZAAR teams.

Wouldn't you say that's an anomaly?

mikey_dragon wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Well Shaun Edwards claimed it was the pro12s fault Wales were sh*t against England as the league aint good enough.
A league so bad only one of the 4 welsh regions finished in the top half.

He's close - it's the fault of the regions and not the entire Pro12. They simply aren't good enough at developing players, they're 15 years behind NZ teams according to kiwi coaches. Until this changes we'll be (with a good national coach) where we are now, a stagnant position. Since the 6N there's clear evidence of England and Ireland improving, and none to support that theory with Wales.

Could you direct me to the tweet btw?

It was an interview on sky sports. Will try and dig out the link for you

PhilBB wrote:Friendly place, this.

Smell the fear.

What exactly should we be fearful off?

carpet baboon wrote:
What exactly should we be fearful off?

The collapse of the PrO'12 and where that leaves rugby in Scotland, Ireland, Wales and Italy.

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:
What exactly should we be fearful off?

The collapse of the PrO'12 and where that leaves rugby in Scotland, Ireland, Wales and Italy.

Wales will be fine. They have Nigel to soothe their tears.

The rest of us - I've already absolved you of any guilt about our fate.

Don't Cry for Us Phil.

PhilBB wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:
He's close - it's the fault of the regions and not the entire Pro12. They simply aren't good enough at developing players, they're 15 years behind NZ teams according to kiwi coaches. Until this changes we'll be (with a good national coach) where we are now, a stagnant position. Since the 6N there's clear evidence of England and Ireland improving, and none to support that theory with Wales.

Could you direct me to the tweet btw?

If it is the fault of PRW and not the PrO'12, how do you explain the relative international performances in the last, say, 5 years?

It seems to me that Team Wales has a fairly strong record against Ireland, Scotland and England in that period, but Ireland and England have a better record against SANZAAR teams.

Wouldn't you say that's an anomaly?

I'm not really sure what you're asking me there? I've alluded to it being the regions fault, because they're among the worst performing teams in Europe. Gatland alluded to the fact that the welsh regions couldn't get the players up to the required level to compete with other international teams - I can't see where Irish teams for example, who also play in the pro12 suffer from this. Another kiwi coach pretty much reiterated what Gatland said - you remember Mark Hammett don't you? Now there is room for intervention here, but PRW and the WRU won't resolve it and will continue to bury their heads in the sand like they always do.

A bit of anomaly, maybe, but we play England, etc in Feb. That's the middle of the season and team Wales had already met up by then. We usually start and finish the season poorly. We're also usually rusty in some of our opening games at any time throughout the season. I don't see other teams suffering from this as often as we do. I put performance issues down to the regions being poor, and that seems like the only logical reason to me.

I do love how clever he is calling it the PrO'12 the way it hints at it being an Irish thing, or as this is phill maybe he is getting it confused with his shampoo

mikey_dragon wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:
He's close - it's the fault of the regions and not the entire Pro12. They simply aren't good enough at developing players, they're 15 years behind NZ teams according to kiwi coaches. Until this changes we'll be (with a good national coach) where we are now, a stagnant position. Since the 6N there's clear evidence of England and Ireland improving, and none to support that theory with Wales.

Could you direct me to the tweet btw?

If it is the fault of PRW and not the PrO'12, how do you explain the relative international performances in the last, say, 5 years?

It seems to me that Team Wales has a fairly strong record against Ireland, Scotland and England in that period, but Ireland and England have a better record against SANZAAR teams.

Wouldn't you say that's an anomaly?

I'm not really sure what you're asking me there? I've alluded to it being the regions fault, because they're among the worst performing teams in Europe. Gatland alluded to the fact that the welsh regions couldn't get the players up to the required level to compete with other international teams - I can't see where Irish teams for example, who also play in the pro12 suffer from this. Another kiwi coach pretty much reiterated what Gatland said - you remember Mark Hammett don't you? Now there is room for intervention here, but PRW and the WRU won't resolve it and will continue to bury their heads in the sand like they always do.

A bit of anomaly, maybe, but we play England, etc in Feb. That's the middle of the season and team Wales had already met up by then. We usually start and finish the season poorly. We're also usually rusty in some of our opening games at any time throughout the season. I don't see other teams suffering from this as often as we do. I put performance issues down to the regions being poor, and that seems like the only logical reason to me.

Christ Mikey don't use logic and reason with phill he really dosent like it

mikey_dragon wrote:

I'm not really sure what you're asking me there? I've alluded to it being the regions fault, because they're among the worst performing teams in Europe. Gatland alluded to the fact that the welsh regions couldn't get the players up to the required level to compete with other international teams - I can't see where Irish teams for example, who also play in the pro12 suffer from this. Another kiwi coach pretty much reiterated what Gatland said - you remember Mark Hammett don't you? Now there is room for intervention here, but PRW and the WRU won't resolve it and will continue to bury their heads in the sand like they always do.

A bit of anomaly, maybe, but we play England, etc in Feb. That's the middle of the season and team Wales had already met up by then. We usually start and finish the season poorly. We're also usually rusty in some of our opening games at any time throughout the season. I don't see other teams suffering from this as often as we do. I put performance issues down to the regions being poor, and that seems like the only logical reason to me.

You're conflating so many issues.

Firstly, PRW being amongst 'worst performing teams in Europe' doesn't stack up with what is required for Team Wales. Gatland has huge access to the players, more than any other NH coach, and he seems to be able to get them to play well against other NH teams, as results show.

Secondly, there's a theme from the Team Wales management, including Warburton, that the PrO'12 doesn't prepare players for international rugby. I think that the Irish disprove that.

Hammett's comments were based on the fitness requirements for PrO'12 rugby. You'll note that this is a season long competition and no player can be at the fitness level required for top international rugby for 40 weeks of the year. That's physically impossible. Hence, "there is room for intervention here" also doesn't ring true for me.

There may be another logical reason for the alleged slowness in starting (which I'm not sure that the stats prove) is that teams get a couple of weeks together to work out Team Wales. During the 6N, there's only a week's preparation.

carpet baboon wrote:I do love how clever he is calling it the PrO'12 the way it hints at it being an Irish thing, or as this is phill maybe he is getting it confused with his shampoo

I do love the way that you've presented yourself as a Poundland version of what you falsely claim me as being. Cheap imitation of a falsehood isn't really flattering, love.

Oooo you have gone for love rather than champ. Nice switch up phill

PhilBB wrote:

You're conflating so many issues.

Firstly, PRW being amongst 'worst performing teams in Europe' doesn't stack up with what is required for Team Wales. Gatland has huge access to the players, more than any other NH coach, and he seems to be able to get them to play well against other NH teams, as results show.

Secondly, there's a theme from the Team Wales management, including Warburton, that the PrO'12 doesn't prepare players for international rugby. I think that the Irish disprove that.

Hammett's comments were based on the fitness requirements for PrO'12 rugby. You'll note that this is a season long competition and no player can be at the fitness level required for top international rugby for 40 weeks of the year. That's physically impossible. Hence, "there is room for intervention here" also doesn't ring true for me.

There may be another logical reason for the alleged slowness in starting (which I'm not sure that the stats prove) is that teams get a couple of weeks together to work out Team Wales. During the 6N, there's only a week's preparation.

I'm trying to concentrate on playing and coaching issues. Some welsh teams are taking steps to rectify that, but most aren't.

What do you mean by this statement? Wales are stagnant with weak depth, that can only be resolved once we have more decent players, which the regions will have to bring through.

I don't agree with that theme however the issue does exist and I put it down to the regions not being good enough at player development, etc. We know some good players come through but it isn't enough IMO.

I don't expect them to be at peak fitness all year BUT I do expect the players to be at the level required when it is required. When I say intervention I mean improvement in finances allocated to the welsh teams (be it private or from the union) - with that we get better coaches, more players of a high standard.

Yes there may be, but other teams aren't as slow starters as Wales from what I can see. That must be a domestic issue.

mikey_dragon wrote:
I'm trying to concentrate on playing and coaching issues. Some welsh teams are taking steps to rectify that, but most aren't.

Most aren't? We have only four, so who do you have in mind?

mikey_dragon wrote:
What do you mean by this statement? Wales are stagnant with weak depth, that can only be resolved once we have more decent players, which the regions will have to bring through.

I don't agree with that theme however the issue does exist and I put it down to the regions not being good enough at player development, etc. We know some good players come through but it isn't enough IMO.

I don't expect them to be at peak fitness all year BUT I do expect the players to be at the level required when it is required. When I say intervention I mean improvement in finances allocated to the welsh teams (be it private or from the union) - with that we get better coaches, more players of a high standard.

Yes there may be, but other teams aren't as slow starters as Wales from what I can see. That must be a domestic issue.

Wales are stagnant with weak depth simply thanks to Gatland. His selections are completely consistent, meaning they are predictable (leading to stagnation) and, by definition, prevent depth. Look at Saturday's selection - he had Anscombe on the bench to cover 10 yet how much time has he given GA at 10?

If PRW weren't good at player development, how do you explain away Team Wales results in the last decade?

Players cannot go from PrO'12 fitness levels to international rugby fitness levels in a fortnight. It doesn't happen. They also cannot maintain international rugby fitness levels throughout a whole season. What you are asking for is physically impossible.

I'm not sure what yardstick you're using for 'slow starters' or which other nations you've researched to give a comparative appraisal.

PhilBB wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:
I'm trying to concentrate on playing and coaching issues. Some welsh teams are taking steps to rectify that, but most aren't.

Most aren't? We have only four, so who do you have in mind?

Blues for example are taking steps to kick on. They brought it another new coach, but he's a good one and he's loyal. We've seen more signings and the squad looks to be building nicely, there was a clear improvement in play as the season went on. I don't see how the other 3 are doing this. Ospreys have signed more players, but they need a coach who isn't an amateur IMO, otherwise it's another year of a good squad being wasted.

Coaches, players, patterns, strategy, levels of fitness to play the strategy through a season.

Yep, mikey.... it's all in the game on the field. And some of us old style idiots still think that's the route to success.

mikey_dragon wrote:
Blues for example are taking steps to kick on. They brought it another new coach, but he's a good one and he's loyal. We've seen more signings and the squad looks to be building nicely, there was a clear improvement in play as the season went on. I don't see how the other 3 are doing this. Ospreys have signed more players, but they need a coach who isn't an amateur IMO, otherwise it's another year of a good squad being wasted.

You don't see the arrival of Brad Davis (coach) being important? Or the signings of good players at both Llanelli and Swansea?

PhilBB wrote:

Wales are stagnant with weak depth simply thanks to Gatland. His selections are completely consistent, meaning they are predictable (leading to stagnation) and, by definition, prevent depth. Look at Saturday's selection - he had Anscombe on the bench to cover 10 yet how much time has he given GA at 10?

If PRW weren't good at player development, how do you explain away Team Wales results in the last decade?

Players cannot go from PrO'12 fitness levels to international rugby fitness levels in a fortnight. It doesn't happen. They also cannot maintain international rugby fitness levels throughout a whole season. What you are asking for is physically impossible.

I'm not sure what yardstick you're using for 'slow starters' or which other nations you've researched to give a comparative appraisal.

You're certainly correct on that issue, but it's just another one to add to the list. Besides that, Gatland can only work with what he has available to him. The regions aren't producing enough players who can play for Wales. Gats had to look elsewhere for his next TH and fly-half for example. I agree that Gats should drop RP for good and for the love of god play GA at 10. Sadly GA will be used at 15 now that North is out.

I'm saying they're not good enough at it. At academy level they're good, but senior level not so good. How do I explain their results? The wins or the losses? There's been plenty of both. A lot of the wins I do put down to Gatland's coaching though. I don't think Gatland can keep it up for much longer - having your regions perform this badly each year and then have to train the same players to be able to beat other international teams just isn't sustainable. We seen it for prolonged periods between 2009&2011. The regions need to up their game.

Why do you keep bringing it back to the Pro12? Have you not seen the intensity which Glasgow, Leinster, Ulster and this season Connacht are able to play at? My point is if the regions were good enough at coaching and player development, their players would be at the level required to step into the international team. Their job is to be an athlete. The season is too long yes, but expecting the regions to have their players at the required level, a level which would also see them perform a lot better in Europe is not impossible.

It's not something that can be researched, it's a view that comes from a lifetime of spectating. Ireland and England in recent weeks had no issues with rustiness, their clubs also faired a lot better than ours this season. It's an issue I predominantly see in the AI series too. England and Ireland winning their opening games, Wales losing theirs and being more error-prone.

PhilBB wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:
Blues for example are taking steps to kick on. They brought it another new coach, but he's a good one and he's loyal. We've seen more signings and the squad looks to be building nicely, there was a clear improvement in play as the season went on. I don't see how the other 3 are doing this. Ospreys have signed more players, but they need a coach who isn't an amateur IMO, otherwise it's another year of a good squad being wasted.

You don't see the arrival of Brad Davis (coach) being important? Or the signings of good players at both Llanelli and Swansea?

I said Ospreys do have the squad, not the coach. Tandy has to go. It's hard to say with Scarlets, they had good players this year and last year. Their results were mostly poor and the team seems to have difficulty scoring tries. I don't see how that will be changing next season, I guess we'll wait and see.

*I got confused there. I literally know zilch about Davis apart from that he worked with Wasps. It could be the difference, yes.

mikey_dragon wrote:
You're certainly correct on that issue, but it's just another one to add to the list. Besides that, Gatland can only work with what he has available to him. The regions aren't producing enough players who can play for Wales. Gats had to look elsewhere for his next TH and fly-half for example. I agree that Gats should drop RP for good and for the love of god play GA at 10. Sadly GA will be used at 15 now that North is out.

I'm saying they're not good enough at it. At academy level they're good, but senior level not so good. How do I explain their results? The wins or the losses? There's been plenty of both. A lot of the wins I do put down to Gatland's coaching though. I don't think Gatland can keep it up for much longer - having your regions perform this badly each year and then have to train the same players to be able to beat other international teams just isn't sustainable. We seen it for prolonged periods between 2009&2011. The regions need to up their game.

Why do you keep bringing it back to the Pro12? Have you not seen the intensity which Glasgow, Leinster, Ulster and this season Connacht are able to play at? My point is if the regions were good enough at coaching and player development, their players would be at the level required to step into the international team. Their job is to be an athlete. The season is too long yes, but expecting the regions to have their players at the required level, a level which would also see them perform a lot better in Europe is not impossible.

It's not something that can be researched, it's a view that comes from a lifetime of spectating. Ireland and England in recent weeks had no issues with rustiness, their clubs also faired a lot better than ours this season. It's an issue I predominantly see in the AI series too. England and Ireland winning their opening games, Wales losing theirs and being more error-prone.

I disagree with you that players are not being produced. I disagree, for starters, that Anscombe is a better fly half than Patchell will be, so it was Gatland's choice to get Anscombe. He didn't need him. He clearly doesn't trust him enough to play him at 10.

I think that you're conflating the loss of income into PRW, meaning the loss of players, so the loss of games, with their ability to produce good enough players for Gatland. The number of players who now play outside of Wales, but are still selected by Wales, proves that the talent production is there at PRW but the income isn't to keep those players at home.

It's quite clear that PRW would have had better results in recent seasons if Halfpenny, Roberts, Davies, North, Charteris and co had all stayed in Wales. The Irish managed to keep their better players whilst we had Roger Lewis ensuring that PRW could not.

Therefore, when you consider how many players play outside of Wales, it undermines your claim that Gatland is doing well with the bunch he has. If you look at the stats, he has the top players under his control more than any national coach. Almost more time than they spend with their clubs.

I bring it back to the PrO'12 simply because I don't agree with your point on fitness. The other national teams don't have a problem with players stepping up and I don't think that Wales do either - it's just an excuse from the coaching team.

PhilBB wrote:
I disagree with you that players are not being produced. I disagree, for starters, that Anscombe is a better fly half than Patchell will be, so it was Gatland's choice to get Anscombe. He didn't need him. He clearly doesn't trust him enough to play him at 10.

I think that you're conflating the loss of income into PRW, meaning the loss of players, so the loss of games, with their ability to produce good enough players for Gatland. The number of players who now play outside of Wales, but are still selected by Wales, proves that the talent production is there at PRW but the income isn't to keep those players at home.

It's quite clear that PRW would have had better results in recent seasons if Halfpenny, Roberts, Davies, North, Charteris and co had all stayed in Wales. The Irish managed to keep their better players whilst we had Roger Lewis ensuring that PRW could not.

Therefore, when you consider how many players play outside of Wales, it undermines your claim that Gatland is doing well with the bunch he has. If you look at the stats, he has the top players under his control more than any national coach. Almost more time than they spend with their clubs.

I bring it back to the PrO'12 simply because I don't agree with your point on fitness. The other national teams don't have a problem with players stepping up and I don't think that Wales do either - it's just an excuse from the coaching team.

Look at it from this angle. Scarlets let go of Priestland but he's inconsistent and was barely good enough at that level anyway. Their other 10 was Steven Shingler, and it obvious a while ago he wasn't good enough for that level either. Owen Williams was promising but couldn't be held onto. In a way, you're correct as these players are being produced - I'm saying that isn't enough/frequent enough. Once they weren't available there wasn't anybody able to step in, so Gats went for a more proven performer from NZ. Patchell will be a good player but he's still not consistent enough IMO and needs to develop further.

Those are all issues I haven't overlooked. They go hand-in-hand. The regions would certainly be better if they had stayed, and sadly there weren't many able replacements to step in at the time. I did notice that these guys never really suffered with fitness issues unless they missed most of the season and still got selected for Wales (Lydiate, JD2).

Gatland has selected guys like Morgan, Walker, King, Turnbull, Rh Jones, Jarvis, 18 year old Giles, James, Priestland among other unfit and out of form players like Francis, Baldwin. These guys are our reserves and I just don't see Ireland/England having as bad a bunch of reserves. There's the difference for me.

mikey_dragon wrote:
Look at it from this angle. Scarlets let go of Priestland but he's inconsistent and was barely good enough at that level anyway. Their other 10 was Steven Shingler, and it obvious a while ago he wasn't good enough for that level either. Owen Williams was promising but couldn't be held onto. In a way, you're correct as these players are being produced - I'm saying that isn't enough/frequent enough. Once they weren't available there wasn't anybody able to step in, so Gats went for a more proven performer from NZ. Patchell will be a good player but he's still not consistent enough IMO and needs to develop further.

Those are all issues I haven't overlooked. They go hand-in-hand. The regions would certainly be better if they had stayed, and sadly there weren't many able replacements to step in at the time. I did notice that these guys never really suffered with fitness issues unless they missed most of the season and still got selected for Wales (Lydiate, JD2).

Gatland has selected guys like Morgan, Walker, King, Turnbull, Rh Jones, Jarvis, 18 year old Giles, James, Priestland among other unfit and out of form players like Francis, Baldwin. These guys are our reserves and I just don't see Ireland/England having as bad a bunch of reserves. There's the difference for me.

They didn't 'let go' of Priestland, he wanted out. Those are two vastly different things. Your moan at Llanelli seems to be that they don't have a squad that can carry four players in a position, all of whom are top standard. I don't understand that thought pattern, sorry. I still don't see too much difference in ability between Anscombe and Patchell either, mind you.

I think that you are overlooking those issues, that is to say you criticised a lack of production of players but that doesn't stand to reason. You've criticised the performance of PRW but not the WRU for creating that problem. Gatland, of course, being happy to stand next to Lewis when Lewis was trying to shut down PRW.

England will always benefit from having three times as many professional teams so will always have better strength in depth. Do Ireland have better depth from Wales? That's a tough call but if you balance things in their favour then you must pay a nod to the fact their depth is secured by keeping their better players at home. I'd say recent results with Ireland, and recent Irish performances bar beating the worst SA team in a while, would put Wales ahead of Ireland.

Wales are ahead of Ireland at International level for now and for a few years.

A much longer serving coaching unit certainly helps with continuity and philosophy - and those coaches can have access to their players for longer periods than the Ireland coaches get with their players. Plus Ireland are trying to build/find a new group of central characters that will take us into the next half of the decade and onwards.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
It's the same thing. You won't be able to say a team will spend up to the cap, below, or over without being able to say their exact spend. Are you going back to there is a salary cap and you assume but don't know if teams spend this?

It's quite possible to read club officials noting their spend levels, to the cap or otherwise, without an absolute figure required, as has been shown in previous links presented to you.

So again, you can't back your point up.

No 7&1/2 wrote:
So again, you can't back your point up.

I can, and have, backed my point up. I can't back up your false, bastardised, silly interpretation.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
So again, you can't back your point up.

I can, and have, backed my point up. I can't back up your false, bastardised, silly interpretation.

But you don't know how much Saracens have spent on player wages.

Something I thought was interesting

http://www.the42.ie/ireland-allister-coetzee-not-interested-playing-2820807-Jun2016/

“But the Northern Hemisphere teams are actually playing closer to Test-match rugby compared to us when we’re playing Super Rugby”

So maybe the Pro12 is a good level after all?

Kingshu wrote:Something I thought was interesting

http://www.the42.ie/ireland-allister-coetzee-not-interested-playing-2820807-Jun2016/

“But the Northern Hemisphere teams are actually playing closer to Test-match rugby compared to us when we’re playing Super Rugby”

So maybe the Pro12 is a good level after all?

Which.....................??????

Keep up guys!

Which.............? - ...............would of course mean that it's the Pro12's fault that South Africa lost at home against 14 men.

That's who Coetzee is blaming, but he's trying to be as diplomatic as possible.

That's why Wales were hammered by the Chiefs, too many players not playing in the Pro 12 and Warburton just never plays

Warburton always has a 'sick note' for Pro12 - blame Pro12 for requiring one from parents in the first place. Childish behaviour and not the mark of a Professional League.

Did I read the other day that the game last weekend was Warburtons first in a month or two. Surprise surprise.


So here's the deal.

1 The top Welsh players play as little pro 12 as possible. Who is to blame for this is up for debate.

2 They recover from injury just in time for Wales matches.

3 They're off the pace for the first few games.

4 Gatland and Edwards blames the pro 12.


Gatlands strategy is to cotton wool his top players as much as possible. They start slowly in every international window as a result but they've more of their top players available.


There's nothing wrong with that. But, instead of admitting it Gatland and Edwards are using the pro 12 as a scapegoat.