The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

First topic message reminder :

I am posting this so that we can talk about rugby, yes I will use links from the media to create a discussion, and whether you agree with them or not, it is not me saying them. 

So, the Pro12, how could it move forward, for me there are one or two bones of contention for me, and that is the refereeing situation we find ourselves in, and the two Italian sides, firstly I will speak about the Italian sides, they have been here for a few years now and they are getting worse, now whether that is because of the fall out with the CC or not, the simple fact is they are not adding much to the league other than a banker five points when they travel and the odd banana skin when teams travel to play them. I would not like to see the Italians cut adrift, but at the same time they seriously need to up their game, at the moment they look as if they do not want to be here and are just waiting for the season to end, recent results have reflected this. I also think, that at the moment a place in the top tier of Europe is a waste for them, they will never win that competition with the state they are in at the moment and I think it would be far more beneficial for them to play in the second tier where they would have a better chance of picking up results and giving them more confidence. Jonathan Davies was pretty scathing about them on Scrum V on Sunday night:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/36068740

Now I do not agree with him when it comes to ditching the Italians, but he does make a good point. Something needs to be seriously looked at when we are considering the two Italian teams, what would you suggest ?

Secondly I will talk about our refereeing situation, I am very uncomfortable with the status quo we find ourselves in at the moment when it comes to the referees, I am not comfortable that we are in a situation where the unions employ the referees AND the players. This leads to calls of potential bias, and the union controlled teams bringing their own refs with them, I think the referees should be employed by a central organisation, not the unions, and I think that the central organisation should be the league itself, the money the unions pay the refs should be payed to the league and then the league should have direct control over the referees. The league should then have a remit of how the refs should perform, and all the refs should be singing from the same hymn sheet, not that of their respective unions. Only when something like this happens will we see an improvement.

I would also like to talk about an article I read on WOL that Jeremy Guscott scratched upon, and states that we should be improving our brand of rugby to be able to compete with the French and English, also he has pointed out that because our CC players are restricted to the amount of games they can play, they hamper the teams involved, this I agree with, and I would rather we rested our players for Europe and played them more in the league. Guscott says that because there is no relegation from the Pro12 then there should be no excuses for us not playing a better brand of rugby. Anyway here's the link if anyone is interested:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-legend-tells-welsh-regions-11202285

Do you agree with Jeremy Guscott ?

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So they are outspending the vast majority of the English already, who in turn don't match the top French. So whats your point?

WTF? You're claiming the 'vast majority' of English clubs don't spend to the salary cap?

Give over.

Well they don't most are no where near. If you disagree you could provide links. So, again, what's your point?

If anyone believes that they are in cloud cuckoo land - Leinster couldn't even compete with the wages Worchester offered to Teo.

Wasps have one of the biggest budgets in Europe at the minute.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So Irelands union led clubs spend more than the English?

Not clubs, Provinces. Included in their budget is the community game as well which they organise.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So Irelands union led clubs spend more than the English?

Browne indicates around €12m but I'm sure that Leinster spend more than that in total.

So, the English cap is just over €7m. They are spending roughly the same. Now the Irish can't outspend, they aren't winning.

You don't know what train to put yourself on, do you?  You'll get caught in a dark tunnel trying to jump from one to another.

The Irish pay more, but no they don't, but yes they probably do, but now they can't, even though they probably do, even though they don't because they're not winning anymore.

One of them will win at the weekend.  Let's wait to see what four of them do next season.

You really do need to start concentrating on yourselves there, Phil.  The train is passing you.  How are the Regions going to compete - that's your train.  Hop onto it.

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I invested in Vodafone shares. That does not mean I own it and I certainly don't control it.

The Union sold 96% of Zebre.

Please explain how that is like the Irish branches.

Or, just admit you're talking out of your hoop.

How much did they pay for their shares?

Sin é wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So Irelands union led clubs spend more than the English?

Not clubs, Provinces. Included in their budget is the community game as well which they organise.

semantics.

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Well they don't most are no where near. If you disagree you could provide links. So, again, what's your point?

If you could provide links to show that most don't, we could then proceed.

Sin é wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I invested in Vodafone shares. That does not mean I own it and I certainly don't control it.

The Union sold 96% of Zebre.

Please explain how that is like the Irish branches.

Or, just admit you're talking out of your hoop.

How much did they pay for their shares?

I'm sure it will be in the link I provided earlier, from the Italian union. You should read it.

Unlucky Phil, asked you first.

SecretFly wrote:
You don't know what train to put yourself on, do you?  You'll get caught in a dark tunnel trying to jump from one to another.

The Irish pay more, but no they don't, but yes they probably do, but now they can't, even though they probably do, even though they don't because they're not winning anymore.

One of them will win at the weekend.  Let's wait to see what four of them do next season.

You really do need to start concentrating on yourselves there, Phil.  The train is passing you.  How are the Regions going to compete - that's your train.  Hop onto it.

It's good to know that the PrO'12 is now all so important.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Unlucky Phil, asked you first.

No, you made the claim first.

I look forward to you proving it.

11:18 you made the claim that the English are spending roughly the same, 11:19 I said that the were outspending the English. So by your own words, you made the claim first back it up.

When you can't lets just say that Bath and Saracens are 2 clubs spending above the English cap and others aren't.

No 7&1/2 wrote:11:18 you made the claim that the English are spending roughly the same, 11:19 I said that the were outspending the English. So by your own words, you made the claim first back it up.

When you can't lets just say that Bath and Saracens are 2 clubs spending above the English cap and others aren't.

You claimed most clubs weren't spending to the salary cap.

Prove it.

PhilBB wrote:

It's good to know that the PrO'12 is now all so important.

That's the title of the thread.

So...any solutions on improving the regions within the PrO'12? Imprison all Irish refs?

SecretFly wrote:
So...any solutions on improving the regions within the PrO'12?   Imprison all Irish refs?

Can we imprison some Welsh refs too?

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:11:18 you made the claim that the English are spending roughly the same, 11:19 I said that the were outspending the English. So by your own words, you made the claim first back it up.

When you can't lets just say that Bath and Saracens are 2 clubs spending above the English cap and others aren't.

You claimed most clubs weren't spending to the salary cap.

Prove it.

You made the claim first, come on now Phil play to your own agreed rules. Otherwise we'll just have to accept that most of the English don't spend to the cap barring 2.

Thought presumably you won't think that Bath or saracens actually broke the cap either Phil?!

No 7&1/2 wrote:

You made the claim first, come on now Phil play to your own agreed rules. Otherwise we'll just have to accept that most of the English don't spend to the cap barring 2.

I made the claim on the cap. You claimed most weren't spending to it.

I think that we can accept that you can't prove your statement.

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
So...any solutions on improving the regions within the PrO'12?   Imprison all Irish refs?

Can we imprison some Welsh refs too?

Oh yeah, I remember, Nigel wears an Ireland shirt under his ref gear. Yeah, I'll let you ban him too if that helps solve some of the issues.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

You made the claim first, come on now Phil play to your own agreed rules. Otherwise we'll just have to accept that most of the English don't spend to the cap barring 2.

I made the claim on the cap. You claimed most weren't spending to it.

I think that we can accept that you can't prove your statement.

So you're saying that you can't prove the claim you made first?

No 7&1/2 wrote:
So you're saying that you can't prove the claim you made first?

I didn't make a claim that 'most' don't. I just noted the spend maximum. You can't support your claim, but that's ok. It would have been good to learn that 'most don't.

So we know that Quins, Bath, Saracens and Leicester spend to the cap.

I'm pretty sure that Exeter do, too.

Gloucester, too: http://sport.bt.com/rugby-union-hub/rugby-union/martin-st-quinton-completes-full-takeover-of-gloucester-rugby-S11364040375444

That puts me at six. Out of 12. So far.

Without Northampton and Wasps.

Fair enough Phil, we'll just have to say no ones knows the wage spend but there's heavy rumours 2 breached the cap.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fair enough Phil, we'll just have to say no ones knows the wage spend but there's heavy rumours 2 breached the cap.

Well, the total wage spend is in each of their published accounts, but that doesn't break down into playing staff, of course.

Let's just say that the rise in the cap and its allowances is directly aligned to the reduction in the effectiveness of Irish teams in Europe.

Make of that what you will.

rodders wrote:If anyone believes that they are in cloud cuckoo land - Leinster couldn't even compete with the wages Worchester offered to Teo.

Wasps have one of the biggest budgets in Europe at the minute.

Where is Worchester ? What is a Worchester ? Who is Worchester ?

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fair enough Phil, we'll just have to say no ones knows the wage spend but there's heavy rumours 2 breached the cap.

Well, the total wage spend is in each of their published accounts, but that doesn't break down into playing staff, of course.

Let's just say that the rise in the cap and its allowances is directly aligned to the reduction in the effectiveness of Irish teams in Europe.

Make of that what you will.

So you don't know then, fair enough. We can say what the cap is, acknowledge 2 clubs have been accused of breaking it and it was swept under the carpet. The Irish pay less, the French more and it's all cycles of success.

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
I have been to a few Blues games, a few Ospreys games, and one or two Dragons games, and I went to about 2 Scarlets games at the start of the season, when it was still caravan season in West Wales. But what difference this makes is beyond me.

Great stuff.

I admit, it is difficult to remember whether you go to Rodney Parade once or twice.

FFS Phil, it's a figure of speach. I watched the following games in Newport:-

Munster
Cardiff
Ospreys
Scarlets

Please do not ask me the dates, I cannot remember.

You did well to watch Dragons v Scarlets at Rodney Parade.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So Irelands union led clubs spend more than the English?

Not clubs, Provinces. Included in their budget is the community game as well which they organise.

semantics.

Semantics my arse. The Provinces are responsible for all the rugby in their geographical area - i.e., Munster Rugby takes care of both the professional and Community rugby in the 6 counties of Munster (which includes everything from mini rugby to the schools game, underage representative rugby, amateur rugby and development and training of referees). Munster employ community development officers and coaches. Now tell me, which English club trains and develops referees?

"Now tell me, which English club trains and develops referees?"

.....................don't say that, Sin.

When will you people ever learn? Lord will be up next saying 'thus be the problem'.

Sin é wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So Irelands union led clubs spend more than the English?

Not clubs, Provinces. Included in their budget is the community game as well which they organise.

semantics.

Semantics my arse. The Provinces are responsible for all the rugby in their geographical area - i.e., Munster Rugby takes care of both the professional and Community rugby in the 6 counties of Munster (which includes everything from mini rugby to the schools game, underage representative rugby, amateur rugby and development and training of referees). Munster employ community development officers and coaches. Now tell me, which English club trains and develops referees?

Semantics in regards to the context of my point yes.

RiscaGame wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
I have been to a few Blues games, a few Ospreys games, and one or two Dragons games, and I went to about 2 Scarlets games at the start of the season, when it was still caravan season in West Wales. But what difference this makes is beyond me.

Great stuff.

I admit, it is difficult to remember whether you go to Rodney Parade once or twice.

FFS Phil, it's a figure of speach. I watched the following games in Newport:-

Munster
Cardiff
Ospreys
Scarlets

Please do not ask me the dates, I cannot remember.

You did well to watch Dragons v Scarlets at Rodney Parade.

Leinster. Sorry.

Phil caused me to go on a rant.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fair enough Phil, we'll just have to say no ones knows the wage spend but there's heavy rumours 2 breached the cap.

Well, the total wage spend is in each of their published accounts, but that doesn't break down into playing staff, of course.

Let's just say that the rise in the cap and its allowances is directly aligned to the reduction in the effectiveness of Irish teams in Europe.

Make of that what you will.

So you don't know then, fair enough. We can say what the cap is, acknowledge 2 clubs have been accused of breaking it and it was swept under the carpet. The Irish pay less, the French more and it's all cycles of success.

Sorry? Don't know what?

Sin é wrote:Munster employ community development officers and coaches. Now tell me, which English club trains and develops referees?

And yet, of course, there's no issue with the Irish refereeing their colleagues.

Well done on proving a point you've argued against forever.

This is up there with your knowledge on Zebre.

Thank you.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fair enough Phil, we'll just have to say no ones knows the wage spend but there's heavy rumours 2 breached the cap.

Well, the total wage spend is in each of their published accounts, but that doesn't break down into playing staff, of course.

Let's just say that the rise in the cap and its allowances is directly aligned to the reduction in the effectiveness of Irish teams in Europe.

Make of that what you will.

So you don't know then, fair enough. We can say what the cap is, acknowledge 2 clubs have been accused of breaking it and it was swept under the carpet. The Irish pay less, the French more and it's all cycles of success.

Sorry? Don't know what?

What, for instance, Saracens spend on their player wages.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

What, for instance, Saracens spend on their player wages.

Was that the question? I thought the question was who spends to the max.

At least we cleared up that most do.

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:Munster employ community development officers and coaches. Now tell me, which English club trains and develops referees?

And yet, of course, there's no issue with the Irish refereeing their colleagues.

Well done on proving a point you've argued against forever.

This is up there with your knowledge on Zebre.

Thank you.

John Lacey or George Clancy never get to ref Munster games.

Anyway, I was referring to the amateur referees which Munster develop (John Lacey is employed by Munster Rugby to do that).

No we haven't. Can you provide Saracens? I don't think you'll be able to. Saying English clubs can spend up to x pounds isn't telling us they do.

The European cup and the finishing places in the various leagues is probably reflective of the financial resources and player quality at various clubs.

1. French
2. English
3. Irish
4. Scottish
5. Welsh
6. Italian

Arguing whether Leinster have same or spend more than some premiership clubs is moot.  

The IRFU and provinces need to bring in more private investment along with negotiating better TV deals for themselves or else collectively through Anayi and the PRO 12.  

Edit:
The Welsh regional private owners need to allow the WRU have Mrs control and matching funding. Neither is going to do it on their own.

Pot Hale wrote:The European cup and the finishing places in the various leagues is probably reflective of the financial resources and player quality at various clubs.

1. French
2. English
3. Irish
4. Scottish
5. Welsh
6. Italian

Arguing whether Leinster have same or spend more than some premiership clubs is moot.  

The IRFU and provinces need to bring in more private investment along with negotiating better TV deals for themselves or else collectively through Anayi and the PRO 12.  

The Welsh regional private owners need to allow the WRU have Mrs control and matching funding. Neither is going to do it on their own.

Sorry Pot, don't understand what you are trying to say in the last paragraph about the WRU, please explain.

wayne wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:The European cup and the finishing places in the various leagues is probably reflective of the financial resources and player quality at various clubs.

1. French
2. English
3. Irish
4. Scottish
5. Welsh
6. Italian

Arguing whether Leinster have same or spend more than some premiership clubs is moot.  

The IRFU and provinces need to bring in more private investment along with negotiating better TV deals for themselves or else collectively through Anayi and the PRO 12.  

The Welsh regional private owners need to allow the WRU have Mrs control and matching funding. Neither is going to do it on their own.

Sorry Pot, don't understand what you are trying to say in the last paragraph about the WRU, please explain.

Neither do I. Scratch the last para. Ignore me.

Walesonline once again ignores the Pro12 final completely.

You'd wonder - had two Welsh sides gotten to the final...what team would Gatland send out against England?

How pointed that the International between Wales and England is designed to fall on the very weekend of the Pro12 final - and that the decision to have it came as early as last December?

So, just how serious were the Welsh Regions about competing honestly in their League this season? And who runs them? Gatland?

SecretFly wrote:Walesonline once again ignores the Pro12 final completely.

You'd wonder - had two Welsh sides gotten to the final...what team would Gatland send out against England?  

How pointed that the International between Wales and England is designed to fall on the very weekend of the Pro12 final - and that the decision to have it came as early as last December?

So, just how serious were the Welsh Regions about competing honestly in their League this season?  And who runs them?  Gatland?

Not quite....

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/connacht-claim-first-ever-guinness-11399413

Admittedly a cut and paste from a Telegraph article that includes the error that Connacht topped the table this season....

I stand corrected. But that wasn't on the main page I looked at.

I thought the final was a success. Not a full house but a record crowd for a pro 12 final and it had a great atmosphere. The fans seemed to enjoy it. That's the kind of thing that will attract them to more finals.


People will say the stadium was far from full but these things take time to build. The Heineken cup had many empty stadiums in its early days also.

Connaught are a great advert for the game with committed players to the league and with a smattering of SH nous and spark. A team with barely 50 test caps beating a team in the final with over 600.

A few more teams like that and the Pro12 will offer something very attractive to fans and TV alike.

No 7&1/2 wrote:No we haven't. Can you provide Saracens? I don't think you'll be able to. Saying English clubs can spend up to x pounds isn't telling us they do.

Which clubs do you think don't? Let's start there and then we can find the links to disprove you.

Sin é wrote:

John Lacey or George Clancy never get to ref Munster games.

Anyway, I was referring to the amateur referees which Munster develop (John Lacey is employed by Munster Rugby to do that).

Munster is part of the IRFU. Like their Chief Exec is employed by the IRFU. Lacey and Clancy are IRFU employees, like the players they officiate.

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

John Lacey or George Clancy never get to ref Munster games.

Anyway, I was referring to the amateur referees which Munster develop (John Lacey is employed by Munster Rugby to do that).

Munster is part of the IRFU. Like their Chief Exec is employed by the IRFU. Lacey and Clancy are IRFU employees, like the players they officiate.

"Connaught are a great advert for the game with committed players to the league".

SecretFly wrote:
"Connaught are a great advert for the game with committed players to the league".

Life is a series of natural and spontaneous changes. Don't resist them - that only creates sorrow. Let reality be reality. Let things flow naturally forward in whatever way they like

Connacht's motto. Well said.