Australia v England, 11 June

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AUSTRALIA v ENGLAND
11 June 2016
20:00 AEST (UTC+10)
Suncorp Stadium, Brisbane

Live on [tbc]

Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

44 Played 44
25 Won 18
1 Drawn 1
18 Lost 25
940 Points 674

B. Recent Form

3 October 2015 - Twickenham, London: 13 – 33 to Australia

29 November 2014 - Twickenham, London: 26 – 17 to England

2 November 2013 - Twickenham, London: 20 – 13 to England

17 November 2012 - Twickenham, London: 14 – 20 to Australia

13 November 2010 - Twickenham, London: 35 – 18 to England

19 June 2010 - Telstra Stadium, Sydney: 20 – 21 to England

12 June 2010 - Subiaco Oval, Perth: 27 – 17 to Australia

C. Teams

AUSTRALIA 

Israel Folau; Dane Haylett-Petty, Tevita Kuridrani, Samu Kerevi, Rob Horne; Bernard Foley, Nick Phipps; Scott Sio, Stephen Moore (captain), Greg Holmes, Rory Arnold, Rob Simmons, Scott Fardy, Michael Hooper, David Pocock.

Replacements: Tatafu Polota-Nau, James Slipper, Sekope Kepu, James Horwill, Dean Mumm, Sean McMahon, Nick Frisby, Christian Lealiifano

ENGLAND

15. Mike Brown; 14. Anthony Watson, 13. Jonathan Joseph, 12. Luther Burrell, 11. Marland Yarde; 10. Owen Farrell, 9. Ben Youngs; 1. Mako Vunipola, 2. Dylan Hartley, 3. Dan Cole, 4. Maro Itoje, 5. George Kruis, 6. Chris Robshaw, 7. James Haskell, 8. Billy Vunipola.

Replacements: 16. Luke Cowan-Dickie, 17. Matt Mullan, 18. Paul Hill, 19. Joe Launchbury, 20. Courtney Lawes, 21. Danny Care, 22. George Ford, 23. Jack Nowell.

mikey dragon I was thinking more of the debutant in the 2nd row. Gelling as a lineout combo isn't just something that happens overnight. Helps if players play for the same club though.

Now things might not go how I think they might but England should IMO attack the Aussie lineout. England successfully attacked opposition lineout in the 6 nations. Should look to do the same.

Plus the centres not being on the same wavelength, a partnership needs time to grow.

Odd team.

Guess I'm happy to see Yarde there but really really surprised it's for Nowell who's been far better then him all season and tbh the best wing in the AP.

Unless it's injury related?

Lots of players with question marks over them for this first Test, pretty much the whole backline has been either out of form all season (Brown, Joseph and Burrell) or had big swings in their playing levels (Yarde and Youngs). In fact the only guy I'm not worried about is Farrell! A crazy crazy time...

yappysnap wrote:Odd team.

Guess I'm happy to see Yarde there but really really surprised it's for Nowell who's been far better then him all season and tbh the best wing in the AP.

Unless it's injury related?

Lots of players with question marks over them for this first Test, pretty much the whole backline has been either out of form all season (Brown, Joseph and Burrell) or had big swings in their playing levels (Yarde and Youngs). In fact the only guy I'm not worried about is Farrell! A crazy crazy time...

Nowell has been names on the bench, so can't see how its injury related.

I think Goode is the most striking omission. Rate Mike Brown, but can assume he retains his place in light of EJ's desire for a confrontational approach. Harsh on Nowell but understandable - there will be plenty of broken field and you could make a case to say that Yarde would exploit it better. Replacements look strong. Exciting young team, but they need to remember this is NOT a development tour

I understand why EJ has gone for Yarde. AUS rugby has pace to spare and lets be honest, Nowell is a great player but the one thing he lacks is sheer pace. He gets gassed a bit... in the 6N George North left him for dead. In AUS, against AUS players you need guys who can hit the min requirments. It doesn't matter how good your positioning, your reading, your tackling is... if you don't have the pace you'll get burnt.

The bench looks out of sync though.

Lawes and Launchbury at back 5 forwards cover. There is no plan to compete with the AUS backrow then even if Haskell etc is struggling.
Ford and Nowell only to cover 10-15.

Wing and FB can be covered but centre looks a bit of a patch job if needs be. I imagine Burrell can cover 13, Farrell can cover 12, Ford covers 10.... but 2 injuries from 10, 12 and 13 and you'll really struggle.

Nowell can over13 as well a 15, or Watson drop back and Nowell into the 11 slot

fa0019 I don't understand the obsession with pace, sure it's useful to have but it's just one aspect.

Yarde is one of the worst defenders in England, though English wingers aren't exactly famed for their defence. Nowell lacks pace but you don't pick him for that. You pick him for his all round ability.

Doesn't matter how quick Yarde is if he gets overpowered/misses a tackle. Now I would like to be proved wrong but picking Yarde instead of Nowell is risky.

fa0019 wrote:The bench looks out of sync though.

Lawes and Launchbury at back 5 forwards cover. There is no plan to compete with the AUS backrow then even if Haskell etc is struggling.

Itoje is the plan I assume.

fa0019 wrote:Ford and Nowell only to cover 10-15.

Wing and FB can be covered but centre looks a bit of a patch job if needs be. I imagine Burrell can cover 13, Farrell can cover 12, Ford covers 10.... but 2 injuries from 10, 12 and 13 and you'll really struggle.

Nowell has certainly played centre for Chiefs and looked pretty good.
10 Farrell and Ford
12 Burrell, Farrell and at a push Nowell
13 Joseph, Burrell, Nowell and at a push Farrell

The truth is the bench can never cover all positions perfectly.

True you can never have a perfect bench and there can always be a scenario which catches you out. Clifford is very unfortunate in that regard as even if he's not been deemed good enough (or fitting with the tactics) to start he does offer really good replacement options to 6 7 8.

beshocked wrote:fa0019 I don't understand the obsession with pace, sure it's useful to have but it's just one aspect.

Yarde is one of the worst defenders in England, though English wingers aren't exactly famed for their defence. Nowell lacks pace but you don't pick him for that. You pick him for his all round ability.

Doesn't matter how quick Yarde is if he gets overpowered/misses a tackle. Now I would like to be proved wrong but picking Yarde instead of Nowell is risky.

Its the one thing you can't teach... everything else you can to an extent. AUS have speedsters all over the game. You do see Yarde stepped sometimes but he has so much gas that he can always make it up. Guys like Nowell have to be on the money every time. Nowell certainly looks like he has more life after sheer pace goes... like Ben Smith or JP Pietersen however I would say when I've seen Nowell this season he's been exploited a little for lack of pace and this AUS team will exploit it heavily, probably the one team that would do so the most.

Speed doesn't mean greatness I acknowledge that. The quickest guys have not always been the best. Craig Joiner (remember him) was a sprinter, Tom Varndell, Jongi Nokwi gassed Habana a number of times and Chavanga could have made the Olympics if he had wanted. However when you're gassed by reasonably quick people like George North rather than outright sprinters there is no way of even drawing up a plan for that... I'd rather have a guy who can make the tackle 4/10 rather than one who has a 0/10 chance of catching him.

In the long run I wonder if wing is the best place for Nowell. As he gets older he too will slow down.

It may save time, which England players do you rate?

No 7&1/2 wrote:It may save time, which England players do you rate?

To save time I will answer on his behalf - Ben Clarke

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It may save time, which England players do you rate?

To save time I will answer on his behalf - Ben Clarke

He was awesome to be fair.

fa0019 wrote:

beshocked wrote:fa0019 I don't understand the obsession with pace, sure it's useful to have but it's just one aspect.

Yarde is one of the worst defenders in England, though English wingers aren't exactly famed for their defence. Nowell lacks pace but you don't pick him for that. You pick him for his all round ability.

Doesn't matter how quick Yarde is if he gets overpowered/misses a tackle. Now I would like to be proved wrong but picking Yarde instead of Nowell is risky.

Its the one thing you can't teach... everything else you can to an extent. AUS have speedsters all over the game. You do see Yarde stepped sometimes but he has so much gas that he can always make it up. Guys like Nowell have to be on the money every time. Nowell certainly looks like he has more life after sheer pace goes... like Ben Smith or JP Pietersen however I would say when I've seen Nowell this season he's been exploited a little for lack of pace and this AUS team will exploit it heavily, probably the one team that would do so the most.

Speed doesn't mean greatness I acknowledge that. The quickest guys have not always been the best. Craig Joiner (remember him) was a sprinter, Tom Varndell, Jongi Nokwi gassed Habana a number of times and Chavanga could have made the Olympics if he had wanted. However when you're gassed by reasonably quick people like George North rather than outright sprinters there is no way of even drawing up a plan for that... I'd rather have a guy who can make the tackle 4/10 rather than one who has a 0/10 chance of catching him.

In the long run I wonder if wing is the best place for Nowell. As he gets older he too will slow down.

Good analysis, and one with which I generally agree. The good thing about playing Yarde now is we answer the questions, good, bad, or indifferent. It is better to know than to speculate.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It may save time, which England players do you rate?

Because I see an issue in his game?... obvious bias or dread to think, jealousy???

I said I think he has a good future but against AUS in AUS its understandable because of an issue which was exploited at times in the 6N. Doesn't mean going forward he hasn't been impressive and his general defence work is top notch.

No, you just don't rate (m)any England players. Honestly thought it would be quicker for you to list them. Again I realise you don't watch the Aviva or many England games.

No 7&1/2 wrote:No, you just don't rate (m)any England players. Honestly thought it would be quicker for you to list them. Again I realise you don't watch the Aviva or many England games.

We get enough 7.5. Club rugby is club rugby. I watch most tier 1 test matches and ECC.

So I don't rate Billy, Ford... and just mentioned Nowell has a flaw which can be exploited (although I still rate him very highly). I don't rate other players from other countries too... do you rate every England player????

I mean you and I go on a bit I know like with George's kicking (and yes this was before his 1 from 7 exploits) yet do you still believe after that

I don't think my opinions are outlandish and hell I have more reason to "hate" the boks then any other team but still don't really have dislike of any particular team (or at least I don't think I do). Well I mean we all hate Argentina right, Its ingrained in all Brits... yet one glimce of the anthem singing and their passion and you can't help but cheer them on.

No 7&1/2 wrote:No, you just don't rate (m)any England players. Honestly thought it would be quicker for you to list them. Again I realise you don't watch the Aviva or many England games.

Billy and Ford are hardly the majority (and its constructive.. I mean I ave said Billy has improved in my eyes and has genuine "greatness level" potential). Well at least I thought its constructive????

No 7&1/2 wrote:No, you just don't rate (m)any England players. Honestly thought it would be quicker for you to list them. Again I realise you don't watch the Aviva or many England games.

Go to the Wales threads, he rates even less of their players - I think Scottish and Springbok players are rated quite highly though...

Just never see you being positive about players. Turn it aorund, but yes at the moment I always have a giggle when you start talking about England players.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just never see you being positive about players. Turn it aorund, but yes at the moment I always have a giggle when you start talking about England players.

Well maybe that was caused from growing up in a nation where it rains 11 months of the year with every house in your estate being a pebble dash type architectural nightmare! Some people are dour right?

Maybe. I'd understand more if we're talking about some of the dross we've had in the last 10 years. I find it harder to believe when we talk about some of the players we have now. Especially those 3 guys.

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:No, you just don't rate (m)any England players. Honestly thought it would be quicker for you to list them. Again I realise you don't watch the Aviva or many England games.

Go to the Wales threads, he rates even less of their players - I think Scottish and Springbok players are rated quite highly though...

If you rank me next to the average SA based poster or fan in general I would say I'm overtly positive!

In the SH you watch an awful load of top quality rugby, their plays, their leagues. SR is at the highest levels cutting edge rugby as is the RC. How many posters on here watch as much SR/RC rugby as they can.. because that is how any rugby poster trying to take a constructive outlook or even a longterm outlook into their teams future should do. Not to say NH rugby is inferior as such, I think Sarries would take the SR champs to the line for instance and bar NZ there is little difference between teams 2-8.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Maybe. I'd understand more if we're talking about some of the dross we've had in the last 10 years. I find it harder to believe when we talk about some of the players we have now. Especially those 3 guys.

Maybe I rate them higher than you do then... as you're (perhaps) more content with their displays than I? Whereas I think they can achieve much more under the right circumstances.

Not really. Don't think you watch them enough.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not really. Don't think you watch them enough.

I don't think club rugby as that relevant to test rugby. That is true.  If I watch 100% of say Argentina (I mean no one here will be offended right and need a safe space for that) test matches I think its reasonable to develop an opinion of a player without watching the Jaguars (even though I do but thats besides the point)!!! But that's my opinion, others will differ and I respect that.

I think you have to watch more than an odd game to give opinion. Like, what are you basing your opinion of Yarde on. Wales. NZ from more than a year ago? What were you basing your opinion of Ford on? It used to be he can't tackle, ain't got kicking distance or accuracy. Now one really bad game and you pat yourself on the back as you did after Wales and say see I told you. Well sorry no, for Bath his distance has improved and accuracy massively. The secondary point to that is he's had the sort of season this year Farrell had last; underwhelming or 2nd season syndrome. The Vunipola wouldn't get into a SA club side, well.

I respect an opinion but it needs to be backed up and I'll challenege when I don't agree, you just happen to pick up points on v good players.

fa0019 Nowell is a much improved player from 2 years ago. His finishing is much better and he played well in the AP final.

How many times have you seen Nowell get gassed by the opposition?

I've seen Yarde be outpaced, I've seen him be overpowered. Just not convinced but happy to be proved wrong.

Nowell's not the quickest but his ability to beat men and his reliability which has helped him.

Disagree, some people can't learn to defend well. Some of these England wingers will never be top class defenders.

I'd rather these wingers were better finishers then showing that they have express pace. No point being really fast if you only do so sideways....

Are you counting the Ashton thing as being outpaced as not sure thats the same thing.

beshocked wrote:fa0019 Nowell is a much improved player from 2 years ago. His finishing is much better and he played well in the AP final.

How many times have you seen Nowell get gassed by the opposition?

I've seen Yarde be outpaced, I've seen him be overpowered. Just not convinced but happy to be proved wrong.

Nowell's not the quickest but his ability to beat men and his reliability which has helped him.

Disagree, some people can't learn to defend well. Some of these England wingers will never be top class defenders.

I'd rather these wingers were better finishers then showing that they have express pace. No point being really fast if you only do so sideways....

I didn't say I would have him out nor didn't rate him... I said I understood EJ decision especially given they're play AUS in AUS and pace was part of my rational (however bad or good that is). I think I also stressed he was a better player in near all departments but I highlighted the one flaw I could see was that in defence I have seen him gassed and that he "seems to" lack top tier sprinter type pace. I believe it was the 6N more than once in defence where for nothing more he was beat. North gassed him, I recall others here at the time saying the same thing.

Not about his finishing, rather issues defending a line. I don't think there is a reason for going with Yarde attack wise.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Are you counting the Ashton thing as being outpaced as not sure thats the same thing.

I rate Ashton a lot actually and think he's been very unlucky. He tracks play better than anyone in the NH for me... Ioane has a similar skill. I'd have him in the squad certainly and why take him if you don't find a place for him in the 23. His try vs. Northampton was first class, can't think of any players who could have read that and also had the pace to follow it through either.

I don't think Ashton has been unlucky, he's had more than enough chances and seems to have thrown in the towel as well.

Yes the Ashton thing is one. No it's not about Ashton anyway.

Ashton was silly getting himself banned for 10 weeks.

If Marler wants to take the summer off it's not called throwing in the towel but if Ashton wants to take the summer off....

Someone like Lewington will learn more from the SA tour than Ashton, it's a great opportunity for the young man.

Ultimately it's Nowell vs Yarde and I think Nowell's in better form and is the more complete winger. I'd happily be proved wrong. I am just worried that Australia are going to treat Yarde like a rag doll.

fa0019 do you think Yarde is a better defender than Nowell? If so that's a bold statement.

I'll be honest it does annoy me when club form is ignored.

Done a bit differently beshocked. Marler being first choice and Ashton battling to get another chance. I'd agree about lewington and a few others, they're prepared to work.

The last point is interesting. At club level I think you have to look at what the players are good at rather than their form as the rest of the team around them can make such a difference. Ashton a good example again.

Anyway, a good positive about this selection is that if anything the set piece is going to get better when the subs come on. Hopefully we'll just have a strangle hold on that all game.

Club form is never ignored, it is just (usually) placed in context.

Too many average players in good club sides have been capped to suggest club form is ignored.

It should get better, we'll have about 13 locks on the field

beshocked wrote:Yes the Ashton thing is one. No it's not about Ashton anyway.

Ashton was silly getting himself banned for 10 weeks.

If Marler wants to take the summer off it's not called throwing in the towel but if Ashton wants to take the summer off....

Someone like Lewington will learn more from the SA tour than Ashton, it's a great opportunity for the young man.

Ultimately it's Nowell vs Yarde and I think Nowell's in better form and is the more complete winger. I'd happily be proved wrong. I am just worried that Australia are going to treat Yarde like a rag doll.

fa0019 do you think Yarde is a better defender than Nowell? If so that's a bold statement.

I'll be honest it does annoy me when club form is ignored.

No I don't. But I do see Nowell getting exploited by AUS who have a fearsome backline who play clinical running rugby at home due to lack of pace or at least compared... all I said was that its one thing you Yarde is lucky enough to have an edge at.

fa0019 wrote:

beshocked wrote:Yes the Ashton thing is one. No it's not about Ashton anyway.

Ashton was silly getting himself banned for 10 weeks.

If Marler wants to take the summer off it's not called throwing in the towel but if Ashton wants to take the summer off....

Someone like Lewington will learn more from the SA tour than Ashton, it's a great opportunity for the young man.

Ultimately it's Nowell vs Yarde and I think Nowell's in better form and is the more complete winger. I'd happily be proved wrong. I am just worried that Australia are going to treat Yarde like a rag doll.

fa0019 do you think Yarde is a better defender than Nowell? If so that's a bold statement.

I'll be honest it does annoy me when club form is ignored.

No I don't. But I do see Nowell getting exploited by AUS who have a fearsome backline who play clinical running rugby at home due to lack of pace or at least compared... all I said was that its one thing you Yarde is lucky enough to have an edge at.

Foley is a good 10, Folau we know about, the centres are big but not that quick. I don't actually think it's a great AUS backline at all really. I would be much more scared of Giteau and AAC.

Yarde played very well v Wales. He's given an opportunity. Its nice to have a few good wingers fighting for the spot.

With regards to the queries over the selections. Jones, Borthwick and Gustard appear pretty shrewd to me...and will have some plan. They are in the process of remodelling the side.

They did the grand slam...now the next phase.

Lets see how it goes on Saturday before we start pulling them apart.

Yup, this is pretty much phase 1. Not much has changed so far.

Yeah true 7.5 its early days, still phase 1. They are looking at style, tactics, players available, injuries, players who suit the tactics etc.

They've got it right so far...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah true 7.5 its early days, still phase 1. They are looking at style, tactics, players available, injuries, players who suit the tactics etc.

They've got it right so far...

If we win on Saturday I will never have been so happy to have been proved wrong! I am really worried about the backrow if anything happens to Billy early doors.

beshocked wrote:fa0019 I don't understand the obsession with pace, sure it's useful to have but it's just one aspect.

Yarde is one of the worst defenders in England, though English wingers aren't exactly famed for their defence. Nowell lacks pace but you don't pick him for that. You pick him for his all round ability.

Doesn't matter how quick Yarde is if he gets overpowered/misses a tackle. Now I would like to be proved wrong but picking Yarde instead of Nowell is risky.

The obsession with pace does seem a bit silly when his opposition winger is Rob Horne, probably the slowest wing in Oz

LondonTiger wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Will the biggest complaints be:

Nowell left out?
Haskell at 7?
Youngs starting?

Or maybe:

Two locks on the bench?
LCD over Jamie George?



Can someone please explain to me what LCD brings to the game? Cannot strike, not a great pushing hooker, cannot throw, average in the loose.

I considered not replying because I'm at risk of sounding like a broken record on the subject? what are you basing this opinion on? LCD does indeed strike the ball, I've seen him do it with my own two eyes. His international career is not litterered with errors throwing into the lineout, he had a shocker in his first game, a world cup warmup with 2 locks jumping that hes probably not thrown to in a live situation before.

Since then his line out has been nothing but solid for England! Unless you can point out to me what I'm missing? not sure he's missed even 1 throw since he's been on the pitch. His line out has always been solid for the Chiefs certainly not a concern unless you're counting his break through season when he was 20. To say that he is average in the loose however is an absolute JOKE! He's probably been Exeter's most destructive carrier in the tight this season. not the flash stuff of Taylor or Thacker but hes a bullocking runner who gets over the gain line. certainly has that dog spirit that Jones bangs on about.

I'm more inclined to go with the opinion of Rob Baxter and Eddie Jones who have pretty good rugby CV's thus far than someone who seems to base his opinion on the odd highlights package of Exeter games and one dodgy lineout perfomance 12 months ago

no 7 & 1/2

Lewington has no caps, he's got more to prove than Ashton. Ashton is the 3rd top try scorer in Europe of all time. 9th in the England all time try scoring list. He has much less to prove. If EJ doesn't want to pick him, it's his loss. If Ashton doesn't feel it's worth going on a development tour then that's his choice. If it damages his international prospects then so be it.

GeordiefalconNot sure why a dead rubber against Wales is being talked up but each to their own I guess. If Yarde performs well vs Australia then I'll give him credit.

Londontiger true but too many average players from average sides capped too!

When in a poor team there's more opportunity to stand out.

I know you rate Ashton highly but he does need to prove hes good enough after a series of under par England performances.

Don't get Yarde starting. Would personally change the backrow a tad but understand why we have gone with this one. Would start Care. Overall, a decent squad with a better tahn Lancaster bench but a couple of calls I don't get

Beshocked maybe it was a dead rubber but he still showed up very well.

You always say you have to play what's in Front of you so don't bring out double standards!!

I haven't rated Yarde at all for a long time, but even I saw what he could bring to the side.

A few players really need to turn up in the back line;

Brown has looked very tired at the butt end of a season.
Yarde is very lucky and though we all might accept that he has occasionally delivered and could do so again, realistically it is only EJ that 'sees' this selection.
Joseph has been poor for a long time and unfortunately there has been nothing to suggest he will raise his game.
Youngs, how long can we continue with his wayward and slow pass? He is way off his game.

Time to stand up and deliver otherwise not only will opportunities go begging, but international careers as well.