Wales thread continued - 2017/18 season

[mikey_dragon]

First topic message reminder :

2017/2018 season results (full fixture list posted below).

Wales 21 - 29 Australia
Wales 13 - 6 Georgia
Wales 18 - 33 New Zealand
Wales 24 - 22 South Africa

Wales 2018 6N Squad:
Forwards: Rob Evans (Scarlets), Wyn Jones (Scarlets), Nicky Smith (Ospreys), Scott Baldwin (Ospreys), Elliot Dee (Dragons), Ken Owens (Scarlets), Tomas Francis (Exeter Chiefs), Samson Lee (Scarlets), Dillon Lewis (Cardiff Blues), Adam Beard (Ospreys), Bradley Davies (Ospreys), Seb Davies (Cardiff Blues), Cory Hill (Dragons), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys, capt), James Davies (Scarlets), Taulupe Faletau (Bath), Ellis Jenkins (Cardiff Blues), Ross Moriarty (Gloucester), Josh Navidi (Cardiff Blues), Aaron Shingler (Scarlets), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys).

Backs: Aled Davies (Scarlets), Gareth Davies (Scarlets), Rhys Webb (Ospreys), Gareth Anscombe (Cardiff Blues), Dan Biggar (Ospreys), Rhys Patchell (Scarlets), Rhys Priestland (Bath), Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets), Owen Watkin (Ospreys), Owen Williams (Gloucester), Scott Williams (Scarlets), Josh Adams (Worcester Warriors), Hallam Amos (Dragons), Alex Cuthbert (Cardiff Blues), Steff Evans (Scarlets), Leigh Halfpenny (Scarlets), George North (Northampton Saints), Liam Williams (Saracens).

Faletau, Biggar expected to be available later on in the tournament. Amos, L Williams perhaps a little sooner.

Call-ups to cover injuries, etc.
Tomos Williams (Cardiff Blues)

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


I thought we'd start with the Autumn series. Gatland the Great is set to return and shake things up after another disappointing season underneath the Howler and his pal McBryde. The fixtures for this series are as follows:

November 2017
Sat 11th Nov 17 17:15
Wales   v   Australia  
Sat 18th Nov 17 14:30
Wales   v   Georgia
Sat 25th Nov 17 17:15
Wales   v   New Zealand
December 2017
Sat 2nd Dec 17 14:30
Wales   v   South Africa

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well there's no time like now so why not. Last year was a bit disappointing, topped off with an unsuccessful tour to NZ (as expected). Whilst I'm hoping for better this season my expectations are low as we have Howler and some other amateurs in charge who got the job because they were mates with Gatland and others in the WRU.

AI's
Wales V Australia 05/11/2016
8 - 32
Wales V Argentina 12/11/2016
24 - 20
Wales V Japan 19/11/2016
33 - 30
Wales V South Africa 26/11/2016
27 - 13

6 Nations
Italy V Wales 05/02/2017
7 - 33
Wales V England 11/02/2017
16 - 21
Scotland V Wales 25/02/2017
29 - 13
Wales V Ireland 10/03/2017
22 - 9
France V Wales 18/03/2017
20 -18

Very tough AI series but a kind start in the 6N. So far this season Blues and Ospreys look good, but how many of their players will be starters for Wales? Cuthbert is starting to look like his old self and if this continues he could come back into the team. Tomos Williams looks like a good player and if he also continues in this vein then might he take advantage of Gareth Davies' supposed rustiness? It's still early days but going by what I've seen and the reports I've read I would like to see a new centre partnership and also perhaps see our old back 3 of North, Cuthbert and Halfpenny reinstated - although a lot could happen between now and November. With Faletau out I think we can all guess who the wildcards will be, but who does that leave to play at No.8 - possibly Warburton with Ellis Jenkins at 7? What changes (if any) would you like to see? Keep it sensible please.

WALES 2016 UNDER ARMOUR SERIES SQUAD
Prop Scott Andrews (Cardiff Blues) (12 Caps) Tomas Francis (Exeter Chiefs) (14 Caps) Rhys Gill (Cardiff Blues) (6 Caps) Gethin Jenkins (Cardiff Blues) (126 Caps) Samson Lee (Scarlets) (28 Caps) Nicky Smith (Ospreys) (3 Caps)
Hooker Scott Baldwin (Ospreys) (24 Caps) Kristian Dacey (Cardiff Blues) (3 Caps) Ken Owens (Scarlets) (42 Caps)
Second Row Jake Ball (Scarlets) (20 Caps) Luke Charteris (Bath Rugby) (68 Caps) Bradley Davies (Ospreys) (56 Caps) Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys) (102 Caps) Rory Thornton (Ospreys) (UNCAPPED)
Back Row Dan Baker (Ospreys) (3 Caps) Taulupe Faletau* (Bath Rugby) (61 Caps) James King (Ospreys) (8 Caps) Dan Lydiate (Ospreys) (57 Caps) Ross Moriarty (Gloucester) (9 Caps) Justin Tipuric (Ospreys) (43 Caps) Sam Warburton (CAPT) (Cardiff Blues) (67 Caps)
Scrum Half Gareth Davies (Scarlets) (17 Caps) Rhys Webb (Ospreys) (22 Caps) Lloyd Williams (Cardiff Blues) (27 Caps)
Fly Half Gareth Anscombe (Cardiff Blues) (8 Caps) Dan Biggar (Ospreys) (48 Caps) Sam Davies (Ospreys) (UNCAPPED)
Centre Jonathan Davies (Scarlets) (56 Caps) Tyler Morgan (Newport Gwent Dragons) (3 Caps) Jamie Roberts* (Harlequins) (83 Caps) Scott Williams (Scarlets) (38 Caps)
Wing/Full Back Hallam Amos (Newport Gwent Dragons) (10 Caps) Alex Cuthbert (Cardiff Blues) (42 Caps) Leigh Halfpenny (Toulon) (62 Caps) George North* (Northampton Saints) (62 Caps) Liam Williams (Scarlets) (35 Caps) * Denotes Senior Player Selection Policy wildcard selection.
Ospreys wing Keelan Giles, Cardiff Blues full-back Rhun Williams and Dragons pair Leon Brown and Harrison Keddie will train with the Wales squad.  

June summer tour
Tonga 6 - 24 Wales
Samoa 17 - 19 Wales

[No 7&1/2]

Not sure they do not heard of any further fines.

[RugbyFan100]

Great to read that Faletau, Roberts and North all have full international release in their English club contracts.

Surely their clubs will get fined if they play against Australia? These out of window tests just seem to cause problems.

[wayne]

Great to read that Faletau, Roberts and North all have full international release in their English club contracts.

Surely their clubs will get fined if they play against Australia? These out of window tests just seem to cause problems.

Yes they cause problems, but if the English clubs want the best of our players, they have to realise some of these players will demand to have this clause put in.
Just to add Nicky Thomas former Osprey has signed with immediate effect for the Scarlets, although nowhere near the standard of the above 3, he was one of the players caught in the Gatland's law scenario, so good to see him come back.

[RugbyFan100]

Great to read that Faletau, Roberts and North all have full international release in their English club contracts.

Surely their clubs will get fined if they play against Australia? These out of window tests just seem to cause problems.

Yes they cause problems, but if the English clubs want the best of our players, they have to realise some of these players will demand to have this clause put in.
Just to add Nicky Thomas former Osprey has signed with immediate effect for the Scarlets, although nowhere near the standard of the above 3, he was one of the players caught in the Gatland's law scenario, so good to see him come back.

The reason there is a window is to enable clubs to keep their players and play games outside of it. What is the point of a window if Unions are going to insist they have their players outside of it?

[LordDowlais]

Great to read that Faletau, Roberts and North all have full international release in their English club contracts.

Surely their clubs will get fined if they play against Australia? These out of window tests just seem to cause problems.

Yes they cause problems, but if the English clubs want the best of our players, they have to realise some of these players will demand to have this clause put in.
Just to add Nicky Thomas former Osprey has signed with immediate effect for the Scarlets, although nowhere near the standard of the above 3, he was one of the players caught in the Gatland's law scenario, so good to see him come back.

Yes, Gloucester have let him go, because, I think of fitness issues, they have now replaced him, with no other than Salesi Ma'afu from Cardiff Blues.

[wayne]

Great to read that Faletau, Roberts and North all have full international release in their English club contracts.

Surely their clubs will get fined if they play against Australia? These out of window tests just seem to cause problems.

Yes they cause problems, but if the English clubs want the best of our players, they have to realise some of these players will demand to have this clause put in.
Just to add Nicky Thomas former Osprey has signed with immediate effect for the Scarlets, although nowhere near the standard of the above 3, he was one of the players caught in the Gatland's law scenario, so good to see him come back.

Yes, Gloucester have let him go, because, I think of fitness issues, they have now replaced him, with no other than Salesi Ma'afu from Cardiff Blues.

Lord, what a difference between Nicky and the 2 other Waunarlwyd (sp) boys that were the cornerstone of the very dominant Wales U20 front row of a couple of years ago, Nicky Smith especially, and Scott Otten have moved on and buckled down to hard work, whereas Nicky T has been released from 2 teams because of conditioning issues, let's hope he will come to his senses for the benefit of Welsh Rugby at the Scarlets.

[LordDowlais]

wayne I agree, but they are replacing one lazy barsteward for an even lazier barsteward. Salesi Ma'afu was relegated to the Cardiff club side because of his fitness issues, apparently, he just did not want to know, that's what I was laughing at.

Apparently though, Nicky Thomas is a phenomenal scrummager, but he is always blowing through is @rse within 20mins.

[maestegmafia]

Great to read that Faletau, Roberts and North all have full international release in their English club contracts.

Surely their clubs will get fined if they play against Australia? These out of window tests just seem to cause problems.

We need the extra revenue.

With players having international release in their contract it doesn't bother me so much.

I am sure Quins, Saints and Bath all knew what would happen if they signed a contract with international release.

I think it's good to stop the PRL from bullying other nations. I have said all along the RFU have had no backbone dealing with these guys and it has caused everyone issues.

[BamBam]

Great to read that Faletau, Roberts and North all have full international release in their English club contracts.

Surely their clubs will get fined if they play against Australia? These out of window tests just seem to cause problems.

We need the extra revenue.

With players having international release in their contract it doesn't bother me so much.

I am sure Quins, Saints and Bath all knew what would happen if they signed a contract with international  release.

I think it's good to stop the PRL from bullying other nations. I have said all along the RFU have had no backbone dealing with these guys and it has caused everyone issues.

Go on then.. enlighten me

How has the bit in bold happened and why should the RFU care about other nations

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Great to read that Faletau, Roberts and North all have full international release in their English club contracts.

Surely their clubs will get fined if they play against Australia? These out of window tests just seem to cause problems.

We need the extra revenue.

Is that a fact? Do we need it, or do we just want it?

[True Raven]

Great to read that Faletau, Roberts and North all have full international release in their English club contracts.

Surely their clubs will get fined if they play against Australia? These out of window tests just seem to cause problems.

We need the extra revenue.

With players having international release in their contract it doesn't bother me so much.

I am sure Quins, Saints and Bath all knew what would happen if they signed a contract with international  release.

I think it's good to stop the PRL from bullying other nations. I have said all along the RFU have had no backbone dealing with these guys and it has caused everyone issues.

Go on then.. enlighten me

How has the bit in bold happened and why should the RFU care about other nations

My only issue with the PRL is if the player has it in his contract, then he was enticed to join that club on the promise of being able to join up with Wales during the relevant periods.

He may not have joined that club if they said no to the clause, and then the PRL demand they cant be released when its in his contract.

I have no issue if the player is to daft to get the clause in his contract like Paul James or James Hook but if the PRL dont want players joining Welsh camps then they should be adamant no premiership club can insert this clause into a players contract

[mikey_dragon]

So who is the likely starting no.8?  Does Moriarty cover? Whos the specialist?

It obviously should be Dan Baker who starts at no. 8, because, well that is his specialist position. I cannot fathom this obsession with playing players out of position when we already have players who play every week. Why would we need Moriarty to cover no.8 when we have Dan Baker ?

If they aren't playing well enough then you don't play them - it's really that simple. Howler turning around and saying "We've run out of 8's so I've thrown in Baker despite form" would be even more odd than his selection of Cuthbert and Ken Owens. Baker has actually played better in recent weeks but I'm not sure if it's enough to warrant a starting berth at No.8 for Wales.

[mikey_dragon]

We're pretty short in some areas but I just don't get the selection of guys like Gill, Owens, Francis, Faletau (injured), Thornton, Lydiate and even Warburton - you just know now that Lyd and Warbs are going to start in spite of their lack of game time through injury and the form of other back-row forwards, which has been very good.
Lloyd Williams has been bettered by Tomos this season. Tyler Morgan has returned and not played well enough to be near this squad. Cuthbert is another who hasn't featured much and Tom James is playing better even though he's probably not quality enough for this level. If the Ospreys had to be hamstrung it should have been at hooker with the inclusion of Parry, not outside half as Davies isn't really capable at this level - it's as if the selectors (obviously it was Gatland) have only read what the WOL have been saying about him rather than actually watch him these last few seasons.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

.

[No 7&1/2]

Apparently Roberts et al will be released for the match but will be available to play for their clubs when Wales take on Japan.

[BamBam]

Great to read that Faletau, Roberts and North all have full international release in their English club contracts.

Surely their clubs will get fined if they play against Australia? These out of window tests just seem to cause problems.

We need the extra revenue.

With players having international release in their contract it doesn't bother me so much.

I am sure Quins, Saints and Bath all knew what would happen if they signed a contract with international  release.

I think it's good to stop the PRL from bullying other nations. I have said all along the RFU have had no backbone dealing with these guys and it has caused everyone issues.

Go on then.. enlighten me

How has the bit in bold happened and why should the RFU care about other nations

My only issue with the PRL is if the player has it in his contract, then he was enticed to join that club on the promise of being able to join up with Wales during the relevant periods.

He may not have joined that club if they said no to the clause, and then the PRL demand they cant be released when its in his contract.

I have no issue if the player is to daft to get the clause in his contract like Paul James or James Hook but if the PRL dont want players joining Welsh camps then they should be adamant no premiership club can insert this clause into a players contract

I completely agree

But the current state is that the clubs are releasing the players as per their contracts, and taking the fine or whatever other punishment they are due from PRL

I don't understand how that amounts to PRL bullying other nations

[maestegmafia]

Great to read that Faletau, Roberts and North all have full international release in their English club contracts.

Surely their clubs will get fined if they play against Australia? These out of window tests just seem to cause problems.

We need the extra revenue.

With players having international release in their contract it doesn't bother me so much.

I am sure Quins, Saints and Bath all knew what would happen if they signed a contract with international  release.

I think it's good to stop the PRL from bullying other nations. I have said all along the RFU have had no backbone dealing with these guys and it has caused everyone issues.

Go on then.. enlighten me

How has the bit in bold happened and why should the RFU care about other nations

My only issue with the PRL is if the player has it in his contract, then he was enticed to join that club on the promise of being able to join up with Wales during the relevant periods.

He may not have joined that club if they said no to the clause, and then the PRL demand they cant be released when its in his contract.

I have no issue if the player is to daft to get the clause in his contract like Paul James or James Hook but if the PRL dont want players joining Welsh camps then they should be adamant no premiership club can insert this clause into a players contract

I completely agree

But the current state is that the clubs are releasing the players as per their contracts, and taking the fine or whatever other punishment they are due from PRL

I don't understand how that amounts to PRL bullying other nations

It's pretty obvious that the clubs don't object to releasing players and working on a situation by situation basis as the French clubs have always done with the WRU.

It seems the PRL use this issue as a matter of contention with the RFU.

It seems high time that the PRL adjust their silly stance

[mikey_dragon]

Apparently Roberts et al will be released for the match but will be available to play for their clubs when Wales take on Japan.

Looks like a compromise was reached - but are PRL okay with this? Do you know if Charteris is available to us?

[No 7&1/2]

It's a throw away line in the times which seems to tick the boxes as overall it's thhe same outcome for the clubs as Wales get them for the tougher game. About time unions stopped arranging matches outside the window and takking up bullying stances though.

[maestegmafia]

It's a throw away line in the times which seems to tick the boxes as overall it's thhe same outcome for the clubs as Wales get them for the tougher game. About time unions stopped arranging matches outside the window and takking up bullying stances though.

The unions and the clubs benefit massively from this forth international. It's time the PRL backed down and took a more beneficial approach for their clubs.

[bedfordwelsh]

Why should the PRL back down, why should they release players when they don't have to, it's a business would you be released from your work when your bosses didn't have to?

I don't agree with the Unions insistence on this 4th AI game but if they do then so be it but we should just get on with and stop trying to pass the buck over player release.

If we play four games then use the one that falls out of the window as a chance to play some of the fringe players.

[maestegmafia]

Because it is in the clubs interest

They get their internationals back for premiership matches, the weekend of the Australia match is an LV= game.

With the French the WRU deal directly with individual clubs. Hence release when we want it and they oblige.

They realise that the more internationally prominent a player is the more attractive their team becomes.

That is protecting a good business, diversifying to suit the situation.

The PRLs stance is solely towards the RFU. Wales are just the victims of the PRLs struggles with the RFU.

[bedfordwelsh]

Not if they get injured on a weekend that they didn't have to release them.

Yes the French have been more amicable but not always.

I agree that they should be allowed to deal with the clubs as opposed to the PRL but I don't agree that they should back down, its our own fault for arranging these games when we know it will cause friction.

[True Raven]

Because it is in the clubs interest

They get their internationals back for premiership matches, the weekend of the Australia match is an LV= game.

With the French the WRU deal directly with individual clubs. Hence release when we want it and they oblige.

They realise that the more internationally prominent a player is the more attractive their team becomes.

That is protecting a good business, diversifying to suit the situation.

The PRLs stance is solely towards the RFU. Wales are just the victims of the PRLs struggles with the RFU.

After some though, I would be peed if underhill was called to England training camps outside of international windows and missed some Ospreys games so as I stated before unless a player got it written into his contract, I am with the PRL on this

[No 7&1/2]

It's a throw away line in the times which seems to tick the boxes as overall it's thhe same outcome for the clubs as Wales get them for the tougher game. About time unions stopped arranging matches outside the window and takking up bullying stances though.

The unions and the clubs benefit massively from this forth international. It's time the PRL backed down and took a more beneficial approach for their clubs.

Eh? Sounds like it won't adversley affect the clubs as I said due to getting players during the match against Japan.

[bedfordwelsh]

It's a throw away line in the times which seems to tick the boxes as overall it's thhe same outcome for the clubs as Wales get them for the tougher game. About time unions stopped arranging matches outside the window and takking up bullying stances though.

The unions and the clubs benefit massively from this forth international. It's time the PRL backed down and took a more beneficial approach for their clubs.

Eh? Sounds like it won't adversley affect the clubs as I said due to getting players during the match against Japan.

If that is done as a deal then fair enough but it hasn't always happened like that in the past.

I'd say let's play the Aussie game without them then we'd see where our back up players are and if they up to this level.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

It's a throw away line in the times which seems to tick the boxes as overall it's thhe same outcome for the clubs as Wales get them for the tougher game. About time unions stopped arranging matches outside the window and takking up bullying stances though.

The unions and the clubs benefit massively from this forth international.

That's very different from what you said previously, which was that 'we need the extra revenue'.

[No 7&1/2]

It's a throw away line in the times which seems to tick the boxes as overall it's thhe same outcome for the clubs as Wales get them for the tougher game. About time unions stopped arranging matches outside the window and takking up bullying stances though.

The unions and the clubs benefit massively from this forth international. It's time the PRL backed down and took a more beneficial approach for their clubs.

Eh? Sounds like it won't adversley affect the clubs as I said due to getting players during the match against Japan.

If that is done as a deal then fair enough but it hasn't always happened like that in the past.

I'd say let's play the Aussie game without them then we'd see where our back up players are and if they up to this level.

Which would be fair enough.

[BamBam]

.

The PRLs stance is solely towards the RFU. Wales are just the victims of the PRLs struggles with the RFU.

I thought the PRL and RFU had an agreement that seemed to be beneficial to both sides, and there were no further arguments over player release?

The only recent squabble has been over players getting injured in England training, not quite sure how that affects any other nations though

[lostinwales]

And I am sure that an agreement could be reached over access to Welsh players outside* of the test window if the WRU agreed to pay for it like the RFU does...

*Outside the test window - is the key phrase all the way through here. ....

[lostinwales]

Oh and the latest on the Beeb is that North won't be available for Oz as far as Saints are concerned (although talks continue). Moriaty also expects not to be available

[mikey_dragon]

I don't think the PRL is in the wrong here, but they haven't always been whiter than white have they... The WRU needs to make it clear that anyone playing outside of Wales is putting their test place at risk because we can't be fe*ked to pay your English and French CEOs compensation. Or failing that, just don't arrange games outside the test window. The only way we can get away with games outside this international window is a season restructure where club games are reduced, and/or playing in a predominantly Union-run domestic league where everything is geared toward the international team.

[No9]

Oh and the latest on the Beeb is that North won't be available for Oz as far as Saints are concerned (although talks continue). Moriaty also expects not to be available

I'm lost here.. Didn't North have it in his contract that he would be released for ALL Wales games no matter when. Wasn't that why Saints where fined by the PRL. That being the case, unless he agreed to changes in his contract that's still in there and he's available for Wales, and the Saints have to suck it up and pay another fine if that's what the PRL decide to hit them with (unless it was never and someone was fibbing). Basically, its tough, and the contract manager at the Saints need to be shot, not the WRU, North or his agent.

As for games outside the international window, yes, the WRU may be money grabbing b*****ds, but take that away from the equation and look at what all the coaching staff have said over and over, and what the Welsh rugby fan wants. To be the best you have to play the best, regularly. Every nation wants one (or more) of the top 3 to tour their nation. Yes it brings in the bucks, but it also develops the rugby team. But we cant all have the top 3 tour every nation, so we have to take 1 each and only 1. OR we accept we can get 2 if we put on an extra game outside the window. That is what the WRU do, and they aren't on their own.

We've been lucky since 2005 (our new 6 Nations dawn - with some blips). The big 3 want to play us, or at least don't NOT WANT TO. And playing them, even though we have a p!ss poor record against them, is helping to develop our game. Sooner or later we will take more than 1 of the big 3 scalps in one autumn, and it could be this year ( )...

So, as far as I can see:-

1. North should be available, and the WRU lawyers (and his) need to check that contract over, and say thanks Saints, but we don't need your permission (unless as I said they where fibbing, in which case on )

2. Until ALL the big 3 want to play us every year, we need to keep the controversial 4th Game, as long as its against one of the big 3.

[True Raven]

Oh and the latest on the Beeb is that North won't be available for Oz as far as Saints are concerned (although talks continue). Moriaty also expects not to be available

I'm lost here.. Didn't North have it in his contract that he would be released for ALL Wales games no matter when. Wasn't that why Saints where fined by the PRL. That being the case, unless he agreed to changes in his contract that's still in there and he's available for Wales, and the Saints have to suck it up and pay another fine if that's what the PRL decide to hit them with (unless it was never and someone was fibbing). Basically, its tough, and the contract manager at the Saints need to be shot, not the WRU, North or his agent.

As for games outside the international window, yes, the WRU may be money grabbing b*****ds, but take that away from the equation and look at what all the coaching staff have said over and over, and what the Welsh rugby fan wants. To be the best you have to play the best, regularly. Every nation wants one (or more) of the top 3 to tour their nation. Yes it brings in the bucks, but it also develops the rugby team. But we cant all have the top 3 tour every nation, so we have to take 1 each and only 1. OR we accept we can get 2 if we put on an extra game outside the window. That is what the WRU do, and they aren't on their own.

We've been lucky since 2005 (our new 6 Nations dawn - with some blips). The big 3 want to play us, or at least don't NOT WANT TO. And playing them, even though we have a p!ss poor record against them, is helping to develop our game. Sooner or later we will take more than 1 of the big 3 scalps in one autumn, and it could be this year ( )...

So, as far as I can see:-

1. North should be available, and the WRU lawyers (and his) need to check that contract over, and say thanks Saints, but we don't need your permission (unless as I said they where fibbing, in which case on )

2. Until ALL the big 3 want to play us every year, we need to keep the controversial 4th Game, as long as its against one of the big 3.

North signed a new contract (which is why Gatlands Law apploes to him) and all release for Wales training camps wasn't in his new contract, just his old one

[No9]

Oh and the latest on the Beeb is that North won't be available for Oz as far as Saints are concerned (although talks continue). Moriaty also expects not to be available

I'm lost here.. Didn't North have it in his contract that he would be released for ALL Wales games no matter when. Wasn't that why Saints where fined by the PRL. That being the case, unless he agreed to changes in his contract that's still in there and he's available for Wales, and the Saints have to suck it up and pay another fine if that's what the PRL decide to hit them with (unless it was never and someone was fibbing). Basically, its tough, and the contract manager at the Saints need to be shot, not the WRU, North or his agent.

As for games outside the international window, yes, the WRU may be money grabbing b*****ds, but take that away from the equation and look at what all the coaching staff have said over and over, and what the Welsh rugby fan wants. To be the best you have to play the best, regularly. Every nation wants one (or more) of the top 3 to tour their nation. Yes it brings in the bucks, but it also develops the rugby team. But we cant all have the top 3 tour every nation, so we have to take 1 each and only 1. OR we accept we can get 2 if we put on an extra game outside the window. That is what the WRU do, and they aren't on their own.

We've been lucky since 2005 (our new 6 Nations dawn - with some blips). The big 3 want to play us, or at least don't NOT WANT TO. And playing them, even though we have a p!ss poor record against them, is helping to develop our game. Sooner or later we will take more than 1 of the big 3 scalps in one autumn, and it could be this year ( )...

So, as far as I can see:-

1. North should be available, and the WRU lawyers (and his) need to check that contract over, and say thanks Saints, but we don't need your permission (unless as I said they where fibbing, in which case on )

2. Until ALL the big 3 want to play us every year, we need to keep the controversial 4th Game, as long as its against one of the big 3.

North signed a new contract (which is why Gatlands Law apploes to him) and all release for Wales training camps wasn't in his new contract, just his old one

Ooops of course he did.. I forgot.

Did he have an actual DC offer from the WRU and Scarlets (I think).. If so, then tough.. Gatlands Law it is.. However, if he didn't, doesn't that exclude him..

As for the new Saints contract, well done Saints Contract manager for getting that clause out, but for North and his Agent.. WHY!!! You should have protected that...

[ScarletSpiderman]

As for the new Saints contract, well done Saints Contract manager for getting that clause out, but for North and his Agent.. WHY!!! You should have protected that...

I guess the convo went, "you can have that clause, but we are reducing you wages to cover the PRL fines that are going to come our way, or you can take that clause out".

[RugbyFan100]

1. North should be available, and the WRU lawyers (and his) need to check that contract over, and say thanks Saints, but we don't need your permission

I thought the whole point of it is that they DO need their permission. Because it's outside of the test window no?

Saints then go to PRL and say can we have permission. PRL say no. Then Saints have 2 choices - tell North he can't play for his country. Or let him play and get another fine.

[No9]

1. North should be available, and the WRU lawyers (and his) need to check that contract over, and say thanks Saints, but we don't need your permission

I thought the whole point of it is that they DO need their permission. Because it's outside of the test window no?

Saints then go to PRL and say can we have permission. PRL say no. Then Saints have 2 choices - tell North he can't play for his country. Or let him play and get another fine.

Nope.. you have to read my full thread on this, not just my "summary" at the end..

North's contract allowed him to be available for ALL Wales training and games, irrespective of when. Which is why I said, they didn't need permission, they had it written down in the contract.

However, before the above is read by itself, and someone else jumps on it..... I forgot, his contact run out last season and his newly negotiated had that clause removed. So now, he does have to have permission from his club. So my summary (as quoted above) is crap

[ScarletSpiderman]

1. North should be available, and the WRU lawyers (and his) need to check that contract over, and say thanks Saints, but we don't need your permission

I thought the whole point of it is that they DO need their permission. Because it's outside of the test window no?

Saints then go to PRL and say can we have permission. PRL say no. Then Saints have 2 choices - tell North he can't play for his country. Or let him play and get another fine.

North's old contract had a clause that bypassed needing Saints permission to attend all Wales games and training camps, should he be selected for them. But it appears that his new contract may not have such a clause.

[RugbyFan100]

North's old contract had a clause that bypassed needing Saints permission to attend all Wales games and training camps, should he be selected for them.  But it appears that his new contract may not have such a clause.

But Saints were still fined under North's old contract. This tells us that no matter what is in a player's contract, that it is still against PRL rules to allow them to play for Wales outside the window.

[No9]

Oh and the latest on the Beeb is that North won't be available for Oz as far as Saints are concerned (although talks continue). Moriaty also expects not to be available

I'm lost here.. Didn't North have it in his contract that he would be released for ALL Wales games no matter when. Wasn't that why Saints where fined by the PRL. That being the case, unless he agreed to changes in his contract that's still in there and he's available for Wales, and the Saints have to suck it up and pay another fine if that's what the PRL decide to hit them with (unless it was never and someone was fibbing). Basically, its tough, and the contract manager at the Saints need to be shot, not the WRU, North or his agent.

As for games outside the international window, yes, the WRU may be money grabbing b*****ds, but take that away from the equation and look at what all the coaching staff have said over and over, and what the Welsh rugby fan wants. To be the best you have to play the best, regularly. Every nation wants one (or more) of the top 3 to tour their nation. Yes it brings in the bucks, but it also develops the rugby team. But we cant all have the top 3 tour every nation, so we have to take 1 each and only 1. OR we accept we can get 2 if we put on an extra game outside the window. That is what the WRU do, and they aren't on their own.

We've been lucky since 2005 (our new 6 Nations dawn - with some blips). The big 3 want to play us, or at least don't NOT WANT TO. And playing them, even though we have a p!ss poor record against them, is helping to develop our game. Sooner or later we will take more than 1 of the big 3 scalps in one autumn, and it could be this year ( )...

So, as far as I can see:-

1. North should be available, and the WRU lawyers (and his) need to check that contract over, and say thanks Saints, but we don't need your permission (unless as I said they where fibbing, in which case on )

2. Until ALL the big 3 want to play us every year, we need to keep the controversial 4th Game, as long as its against one of the big 3.

North signed a new contract (which is why Gatlands Law apploes to him) and all release for Wales training camps wasn't in his new contract, just his old one

Ooops of course he did.. I forgot.

Did he have an actual DC offer from the WRU and Scarlets (I think).. If so, then tough.. Gatlands Law it is.. However, if he didn't, doesn't that exclude him..

As for the new Saints contract, well done Saints Contract manager for getting that clause out, but for North and his Agent.. WHY!!! You should have protected that...

Going back to my question above in bold.. Did he have an offer, that was fair and reasonable ? Again, if so, then tough. If the offer was unreasonable, then again should he be penalised using Gatland's Law. For example, what if the offer was less than half he was on, or below "market value". Is that reasonable and if not, then surely its not an offer, hence, he didn't have an offer and should be exempt...

BUT, also, thinking about it... Isn't his contract an extension in exactly the same way Halfpenny's is.. Halfpenny isn't subject to Gatland's Law, because we're told its an extension, why is North's different. Is it back to getting an WRU DC offer and turning it down.

I actually believe in the principal of the so called Gatland's Law, but I'm not sure its being implemented in a fair practical manner.

[RugbyFan100]

PRL are not going to adhere to Gatland's law are they? It's outside the window, and North shouldn't be available to Wales under World Rugby guidelines.

[No9]

North's old contract had a clause that bypassed needing Saints permission to attend all Wales games and training camps, should he be selected for them.  But it appears that his new contract may not have such a clause.

But Saints were still fined under North's old contract. This tells us that no matter what is in a player's contract, that it is still against PRL rules to allow them to play for Wales outside the window.

Yep.. but that's where the Saints screwed up.... They should have considered their contract with the PRL and ensured any contracts they issue to players don't contravene what they have agreed with the PRL. They didn't, and hence its their man sausage-up not North's not the PRL's.

Have the same thing in work ALL the time. If I agree contract with hard SLAs (Service Level Agreements - incase anyone doesn't know), I have to ensure that the contract I have with suppliers allow me to meet those SLAs. No good me telling a client we'll respond to a failure within 4 hours, to find that my contract with the supplier gives him 1 week to resolve. I'll be paying through the nose for it..

Which is why I said (on North's original contract) well done his agent, shot the Saints contract manager.

[RugbyFan100]

North's old contract had a clause that bypassed needing Saints permission to attend all Wales games and training camps, should he be selected for them.  But it appears that his new contract may not have such a clause.

But Saints were still fined under North's old contract. This tells us that no matter what is in a player's contract, that it is still against PRL rules to allow them to play for Wales outside the window.

Yep.. but that's where the Saints screwed up.... They should have considered their contract with the PRL and ensured any contracts they issue to players don't contravene what they have agreed with the PRL. They didn't, and hence its their man sausage-up not North's not the PRL's.

Have the same thing in work ALL the time. If I agree contract with hard SLAs (Service Level Agreements - incase anyone doesn't know), I have to ensure that the contract I have with suppliers allow me to meet those SLAs. No good me telling a client we'll respond to a failure within 4 hours, to find that my contract with the supplier gives him 1 week to resolve. I'll be paying through the nose for it..

Which is why I said (on North's original contract) well done his agent, shot the Saints contract manager.

Saints would not have been able to sign North if they did that. They had to involve that clause to get North on board. The 60k was just collateral damage I expect!

[ScarletSpiderman]

No9, Halfpenny's contract was a two year deal with the option of a third year. North had seen out the full length of this three year deal. So Halfpenny 'extended' his existing contract, where as North penned a new contract. Hope that makes sense.

[No9]

No9, Halfpenny's contract was a two year deal with the option of a third year.  North had seen out the full length of this three year deal.  So Halfpenny 'extended' his existing contract, where as North penned a new contract.  Hope that makes sense.

Cheers.... I recollect that now..

I'm getting old and forg..... what was I saying. Hang on, do I need a pee ... never mind, where was I ... oh yes, I do need a pee..

[No9]

North's old contract had a clause that bypassed needing Saints permission to attend all Wales games and training camps, should he be selected for them.  But it appears that his new contract may not have such a clause.

But Saints were still fined under North's old contract. This tells us that no matter what is in a player's contract, that it is still against PRL rules to allow them to play for Wales outside the window.

Yep.. but that's where the Saints screwed up.... They should have considered their contract with the PRL and ensured any contracts they issue to players don't contravene what they have agreed with the PRL. They didn't, and hence its their man sausage-up not North's not the PRL's.

Have the same thing in work ALL the time. If I agree contract with hard SLAs (Service Level Agreements - incase anyone doesn't know), I have to ensure that the contract I have with suppliers allow me to meet those SLAs. No good me telling a client we'll respond to a failure within 4 hours, to find that my contract with the supplier gives him 1 week to resolve. I'll be paying through the nose for it..

Which is why I said (on North's original contract) well done his agent, shot the Saints contract manager.

Saints would not have been able to sign North if they did that. They had to involve that clause to get North on board. The 60k was just collateral damage I expect!

Well they can, they can put a contract out for nearly anything they want, but if it puts them in breech of contracts they have in place, then they are going to be in trouble.... They did, paying no consideration, just they wanted North to play, and they paid for it.... Guess they learned their lesson when they re-negotiated.

[RugbyFan100]

Well they can, they can put a contract out for nearly anything they want, but if it puts them in breech of contracts they have in place, then they are going to be in trouble.... They did, paying no consideration, just they wanted North to play, and they paid for it.... Guess they learned their lesson when they re-negotiated.

Has anyone got any quotes to prove that North now has not got that clause in his contract? Otherwise, why is he telling Howley that he is available for all Wales training and games? Either way Saints did what they had to to secure North's signature.....twice.

[bedfordwelsh]

Why the feck we don't just say ok guys for the Australia game we will just have to do without you.

The only area we really don't have cover is tighthead and even then I'm still not convinced by Francis and I guess with Nicky Thomas now eligible for selection we could use him.

Against Australia with the squad selected we could still field:

Jenkins Owens Lee
AWJ B Davies
Lydiate Baker Warburton

Webb S Davies
Amos Sc Williams JD Cuthbert

Li Williams

Smith Baldwin Andrews Ball Tipuric G Davies Biggar Anscombe

[ScarletSpiderman]

Well they can, they can put a contract out for nearly anything they want, but if it puts them in breech of contracts they have in place, then they are going to be in trouble.... They did, paying no consideration, just they wanted North to play, and they paid for it.... Guess they learned their lesson when they re-negotiated.

Has anyone got any quotes to prove that North now has not got that clause in his contract? Otherwise, why is he telling Howley that he is available for all Wales training and games? Either way Saints did what they had to to secure North's signature.....twice.

Here, but it is the fail so take it with a pinch of salt (about one mines worth)

Northampton team manager Paul Shields said: “George has been selected for the Wales internationals, but as it stands he will not be available for that game.

“I know discussions are ongoing with the WRU and the chairmen but I’m not privy to those conversations. “George is no different than any other non-English player. There’s no side letter that exists or anything in his contract that says we will release George to play.

“We’re governed by Premier Rugby, who as a company will not release players outside the international window.”

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