England's Autumn selections

First topic message reminder :

Saturday 12th November
England vs South Africa
Twickenham

Saturday 19th November
England vs Fiji
Twickenham

Saturday 26th November
England vs Argentina
Twickenham

Saturday 3rd December
England vs Australia
Twickenham

Obviously we're not playing New Zealand, but it's the other 3/4 of the Rugby Championship plus Fiji for good measure.

So given form and fitness who's going to make our starting 15 / 23?

No Haskell, but we will have Hughes. Neither Farrell, Tuilagi and Brown have played yet and injuries are certain to intervene for others to lose out or benefit as happens.

With Underhill not a possibility then Jones is down to:

- Moving Robshaw back to 7, with Itoje probably at 6, despite being adamant he shouldn't play there

- Giving Harrison another go despite him being given the hook after 30 mins in the final test in Oz

- Recalling Kvesic to the squad to see what he does at Int level

- Entrusting Will Evans with a chance after naming him in the larger EPS training squad

With SA first up that decision is even tougher given our recent record against them. Personally I think Jones will bite the bullet, move Robshaw back to 7 with Itoje at 6 and Hughes on the bench.

1.Mako 2.Hartley 3.Cole 4.Lawes 5.Kruis 6.Itoje 7.Robshaw 8.Billy

16.George 17.Marler 18.Hill 19.Launchbury 20.Hughes

If Farrell is still at 12 with Ford at 10 then a 6-2 split on the bench is also a reasonable possibility against SA.

16.George 17.Marler 18.Hill 19.Launchbury 20.Harrison/Kvesic 21.Hughes 22.Care/Youngs 23.Daly

If Watson is on the wing so he can shift to cover full back then that bench would cover the basis and offer lots of options if the pack balance looks off early on.

How many injured players do England have to have before the "exceptional circumstances" rule kicks in? With Haskell and Clifford now both out, England are already down to their 3rd choice openside, whichever way you look at it. Eddie may yet get his paws on Underhill...

I can't see Evans being given a shot, at least not against the Boks. He's under 100kg (according to Wikipedia) which isn't surprising given his age but doesn't seem big enough given who he'll be facing.

Clifford's injury gives James Chisholm a chance to claim a back row place at Quins. Though he usually plays 8, he's capable of playing 7 and at 6'2" and 107kg is a good size for a modern back row. It'd be remarkable if he made the squad for the AIs, but given the lack of decent options there's an opportunity there to be seized.

Don't forget the annual carnage that the early European games often inflict

[Phone rings]
"Underhill."
"Ah, mate. I know I'm not allowed to pick you right now. But under the circumstances, what's your shirt size, just in case? Oh, and before I go, don't get injured."

Isn't Underhill injured too?



And to answer my own question - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/08/04/sam-underhill-to-miss-first-four-months-of-the-season-with-shoul/

Daly - Hmmm. I forgot about him but I think he could do a job at FB if needed.

LT, I'd forgotten that, too. Well, there's always Steffon.

Poorfour wrote:LT, I'd forgotten that, too. Well, there's always Steffon.

True, though he has started just two of Pau's five games this season with one on the bench. Interestingly they lost all three, but won the two he did not feature in.

any way, if in doubt call for Phil Vickery.

Where's Burgess at??

Poorfour wrote:How many injured players do England have to have before the "exceptional circumstances" rule kicks in?

Since it was rewritten, this is how it's now seen: "If you get big injuries ahead of playing a tier-one country – maybe the next in line is inexperienced and almost to a point of safety issues. Under those circumstances that would definitely be exceptional and you might have to look elsewhere."

So long as Robshaw is a potential seven - despite Jones professing his distaste - then Steffon wouldn't be in line to get a call even if he was playing well.

Does Waller ever think he's done wrong

The Telegraph is reporting that Eddie has ruled out Robshaw and Hughes at 7 but is looking at Mike Williams.

Yeah I read about Williams a couple of days ago

So like for like with Haskell....

I guess Jones likes his 7 to be a destructive force very different to say Hooper with Australia....

Won't be good reading for Evans, Kvesic etc etc...

What style of player is Williams and does he usually play 7? Haven't really noticed him when Tigers play tbh.

So do we think Jones will have Robshaw, Vunipola, Clifford, Harrison, Williams and Hughes in the EPS or will one miss out?

Ive always,heard the tigers fans saying he's a real powerhouse and physical. Big unit.

So it's like,for like yappy.

Ps isn't clifford out for 4 months now with an ankle op needed.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ps isn't clifford out for 4 months now with an ankle op needed.

10 weeks..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/37452438

Yes ankle sirgery, wouldn't be surprised if it was longer then expected as Quins often give very optimistic time frames.

Glad to hear Williams is like for like, should mean he could drop in relatively easily.

That's must be Jones thinking. Keep the tactics similar.

Clifford won't be involved in the AIs then

A number of backrow options if Jones is looking for big guys.  I would still think against the Boks Robshaw, Vunipola and Itoje would be a good bet. On the smaller size, less options but what about Jones and Thompson of Wasps.

Tualaghi will ,miss the Autumn internationals with another Groin injury.

I do hope he gets better, but it does seem to be an on going injury.

majesticimperialman wrote:Tualaghi will ,miss the Autumn internationals with another Groin injury.

I do hope he gets better, but it does seem to be an on going injury.

I too wish him well in his recovery. Having said that I do not see him as key England player even if fully fit.

At this stage it's hardly a case of 'missing' the AIs....he was never going to be selected anyway. He's not going to be considered until he can put a good few months of rugby together without getting crocked.

Sadly it seems like he's simply quite literally too strong for his own good, all that explosive muscle power is no use if it breaks you whenever you use it.

I'm sick of hearing about Tuilagi in links to England.

When he's consistent smashing teams for fun like several years ago...he has a chance. For the moment we have others who are well ahead. Basically because they play week in week out!

At 6 Williams did himself no harm today having a cracking physical game with Eddie watching

Well said Geordiefalcon. Sadly Manu can't get over his injuries.

Do you not think it's disappointing our homegrown backrowers aren't good enough? Hence needing to bring in Harrison,Hughes and now it seems Mike Williams? Obviously even Billy is playing for England but is of Tongan stock, born in Australia.

In 2003 we had the likes of Back,Hill and Dallaglio.... 3 RWC winners now the cupboard is pretty bare.

After the weekend - Care looks to be carrying a rib injury and Marler was out cold after the first contact - so that will be a standart return to play protocol.
Not sure if either of those would sway squad selection for EJ.

As ever there's plenty of choise beshocked, guess it's just whether you rate them. Personally I'd have a few more 'English' options like Kvesic (yes born in Germany but not German!) anyway.

I know a Zimbabwe born English lad, can't imagine he would ever think he should be considered as a foreigner, his family most definitely would think of themselves English through and through

No 7&1/2 wrote:As ever there's plenty of choise beshocked, guess it's just whether you rate them. Personally I'd have a few more 'English' options like Kvesic (yes born in Germany but not German!) anyway.

Really? I wouldn't say there's numerous options lining up to replace Haskell. If there were then we would not be discussing potentially putting Itoje to 6.

Some positions are well stocked, some are not.

I think there's a certain amount of guessing who Jones would look to ie no one has said Kvesic due to him not suiting Jones' plan but theres plenty who rate him. I also think Itoje at 6 is atill there as Jones has played him there in training apparently and personally think he could be a top class lock or 6 still?

I'd go with Itoje at 6 for now. We know him and Robshaw at 6 and 7 can work (and will probably be what we end up with at some point anyway). We know he can do it, and there is excellent back up at lock.

Thing is in recent interviews and sessions Eddie has reiterated that Robshaw is not a 7. Will he do what he says? Only if it suits I guess.

Oh I think we DO have "English" options....it just seems to me that at the moment we don't have any (bar Haskell and Robshaw) that accurately fit the criteria that Jones wants.

Mind even the "foreign Englishmen" haven't put their hand up.
Harrison's stock has dropped considerably since the Oz tour, and has started the season slow...
Nathan Hughes...is hardly pulling up trees...and certainly not for 80 mins each game.
Ewers is not making any statement...

Ironically the players who are shining ARE the smaller physically built English players like the wasps players, Robshaw, and some of the players that aren't rated as internationals namely the consistently outstanding Mark Wilson and Will Welch.

I'm not getting Eddie's stance in relation to Robshaw not being a seven if he is going to call Williams up to play there. The guy is a blindside/lock. I get the logic that he wants a like for like replacement for Haskell, but to rule Robshaw out for 'not being a seven' then picking a guy who seems even less like a seven seems odd.

It's a shame Underhill is injured, would have been the perfect time. Ah well, there will be other opportunities.

Mark Wilson

Cumbrian wrote:I'm not getting Eddie's stance in relation to Robshaw not being a seven if he is going to call Williams up to play there.  The guy is a blindside/lock.  I get the logic that he wants a like for like replacement for Haskell, but to rule Robshaw out for 'not being a seven' then picking a guy who seems even less like a seven seems odd.

Agree 100%.

However pretty much everyone being suggested is currently playing at 6 or 8 (discounting Will Welch as Falcons fans were demanding he be sacked and sent to another club last season).

Williams - 6 can cover lock. 6ft 5 18.5 stone
Sam Jones - Playing 6, 6ft3 18 stone
Guy Thompson - Playing 8 and 7, 6ft 1 17 stone
Mark Wilson - a 6 who covered second row last season
Harrison - Is he a 7 or an 8.

etc etc


Unless Eddie changes the make-up of the team drastically he will really just bring in players to perform the same role as those who did so well last season. I would still not be shocked if, despite hs words, we see Robshaw wearing 6 but playing openside in the AIs.

LondonTiger wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:I'm not getting Eddie's stance in relation to Robshaw not being a seven if he is going to call Williams up to play there.  The guy is a blindside/lock.  I get the logic that he wants a like for like replacement for Haskell, but to rule Robshaw out for 'not being a seven' then picking a guy who seems even less like a seven seems odd.

Agree 100%.

However pretty much everyone being suggested is currently playing at 6 or 8 (discounting Will Welch as Falcons fans were demanding he be sacked and sent to another club last season).

Williams - 6 can cover lock. 6ft 5 18.5 stone
Sam Jones - Playing 6, 6ft3 18 stone
Guy Thompson - Playing 8 and 7, 6ft 1 17 stone
Mark Wilson -  a 6 who covered second row last season
Harrison - Is he a 7 or an 8.

etc etc


Unless Eddie changes the make-up of the team drastically he will really just bring in players to perform the same role as those who did so well last season. I would still not be shocked if, despite hs words, we see Robshaw wearing 6 but playing openside in the AIs.

And yet now we wouldn't swap him. Finally fulfilling his potential and is our own version of mad dog moody. Puts his head everywhere that hurts and tackles anything that moves.

What's the word on Farrell?

I hear it was a surfing accident, where his spine got bent backwards, which sounds unfortunate, and not a straightforward recovery. Lancaster made the mistake of rushing Farrell back from injury, so I hope we don't do that again.

Haskell and Farrell covered England's two troubled positions for Jones, so it's back to square one if both are unavailable.

Whos front runner for 12 with Farrell out?

Slade?
Teo? (I flippin hope not!)

Farrell was supposedly in contention to play for Sarries last weekend. I guess we shall see if he features this coming weekend.

But if Farrell is out...who would step up?

At least Slade is playing...Mallinder is not seemingly trusted, Hill seems better at 13, and im struggling to think of any other 12s?

As to who would play at 12?

The current extended squad has 6 guys listed as centre (of course does not include Farrell as he is listed as FH):

Daly - surely would only start at 13, but has covered 12 from bench.
Joseph - another 13, but struggling with injuries
Marchant - tbh not sure if he is playing for Quins atm.
Slade - Worn 10 shirt in two games, 12 in other two (but actually played OC this week despite wearing 12). Reasonable form but inexperienced at 12 at any level.
Te'o - Favoured by Jones but not pulling up trees in AP
Tuilagi - who?


So some real issues. From outside the squad we can also mention guys like Mallinder, Hill and James - but they will be down the pecking order in Jones mind I reckon.

Of course there is always the chance of recalls for Barritt or Burrell.

Barritt could do a short term job at 12. Personally, I've always thought Banahan would be a better 12 than winger or OC, especially if you want to play an offloading game. I suspect it will be Slade as long as he is fit, though. He's a similar size and skill set to Farrell, Eddie likes his 2nd 5/8ths (and who can blame him?) and this time last year no-one thought Faz was a good choice at 12.

At openside, I don't think it's that England are short of homegrown talent, but we do have a timing issue. There are a number of young players who could play 7 well. Clifford could have done the job but has got injured at just the wrong time. Underhill is injured and not easily available until he joins an English club. Evans and Chisholm don't have much first team rugby under their belts.

Kvesic clearly has something missing that he's failed to learn since Lancaster took him to Argentina in 2013. Welch has clearly blown hot and cold. Fraser has been injured so often that his time may have passed.

As for Robshaw, given Eddie's repeated insistence that he's a 6, I am beginning to wonder if my quip from a little while back actually has some substance to it. Eddie has so far asked his 7s to do a very straightforward job, albeit a very physically demanding one. For the back row balance to work, that means that the 6 has to cover a wider range of back row activities, and work out on the fly which one is required. And then get up and do whatever is required next time. He may not want Robshaw at 7 because he doesn't have anyone who can do quite the same job at 6.

Banahan at 12 might have been a brilliant move but about 10 years ago. Great offloads and a better skill set than he's usually credited with.

So he must value Robshaw very highly if that's the case. And yes kvesic is not doing something right as both Lancaster and now Jones don't rate him.

I think it'll be someone who is physically able to do the job Jones expects at 7....which seemingly is not flashy but rather brutal and basic hence why I'm expecting someone with more enhanced physical stats. Though I do think Harrison could do it....but seems a little out of form.

Im not sure Clifford can play the role that Jones wants.

Funnily enough I agree with what you say about banahan and I even hoped to see it a few years back. I think he could have been very good in that spot. Well it was worth a try.

If Slade is at 12 he'll likely kick at goal as well given that Jones hasn't trusted Ford with duties yet. If Farrell shows quick form and fitness I think he'll start though. He's so vital to Jones game plan.

Jonny May is back in full training, expected to return with Gloucs by mid-October and due to be named in the EPS on Friday according to the Torygraph.

GF, I sort of agree with you on Clifford. Eddie seems to prefer using him to add pace to the back row late in the game, and I don't think he could do Haskell's job (nor would it be a good use of his skill set). But I also think Eddie will tailor what he asks of his 7 to the skills available. If Clifford were the preferred option, I'd expect him to have more of a linking, ball-stealing role. All a bit academic anyway, given they're both injured.

Maybe Banahan is a little past his sell-by date. Shame we never got to see him play 12 in a proper international, though. It suited his size and skills while being much less likely to expose his turning circle than wing or OC.

Anyway, the new EPS is named at the end of the week? Who do we think will be in and who will be out? Does Eddie still get to do the "name an injured player and immediately call up injury cover" trick?