Fury vs Klitschko OFF

First topic message reminder :

Oh dear....

Looking back at the whole Fury situation, I did quietly wonder to myself how he would handle being World Champ after beating Wlad. With the benefit of hindsight he did seem more than a little manic but we all probably put that down to Tyson Fury being a bit off-the-wall anyway.

I hope he gets the help he deserves, and doesn't come back until he's ready. I really don't like him - I am about the furthest from being a fan as you can get, but if he is genuinely ill, he needs looking after, and properly. I will be very surprised if he still holds a belt by the end of the year.

With regard to Tyson Fury, every indication has been that he is just not up for the fight.  Call that mental illness, depression or just a lack of motivation - there has been clear signs from the spring of this year, that Fury's heart has not been in it.  

It would be better for Fury and for world boxing for the decision to be taken out of the Fury camps hand, and he be "recessed" and the belts stripped off him as soon as possible.  

Tyson Fury and his camp can then decide what Tyson Fury wants to do next - because clearly at the moment he has zero interest in boxing, and in particular in fighting Wladimir Klitschko.

If this happens and Klitschko loses, then this would probably be better for Fury - because then he won't be obliged to fight Klitschko again.

Tyson Fury is 28, turns 29 in August of next year.  He hasn't had that many fights, so there is enough time for him to regather himself and still be potentially fit to carve out a second boxing career - if he decides to continue as a professional boxing.

Seems to me a TUE can only be granted if it is deemed to have no performance enhancing capability

And this is the same drug that Armstrong was busted for back in 99 right?

The same drug that Rasmussen used and said was the most powerful drug he ever took enabling the body to shed weight at a very fast rate?

And Freeman wouldn't have known this? Brailsford wouldn't have known this?

A whole subculture, a whole netherworld of doping in cycling your whole world revolves around cycling and you wouldn't be aware of the testimonials about kenalog and it's benefits. Some experts those two must really be clued up about their chosen specified..

F*CK ARE YOU TWO TALKING ABOUT ON A FURY FIGHT THREAD?????

I'll throw this into it too Toppy while I'm at it

Fukc can you say only therapeutic levels sh1t's so potent only need tiny amounts trace amounts of it for it to do it's magic

Back in November 2012 Fury was talking about his battles with depression: http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/boxing/tyson-fury-reflects-on-his-fight-with-depression-1465652

The guy is an absolute genius, back in November 2012 he formulated a cunning plan where he mention the depression knowing that a few years later he would have beaten the Champion that nobody else could beat and then use the depression as an excuse to never fight again and steal the belts.

Fair enough to those that don't like him but seriously some of the flippancy here to mental illness is disgusting.

I hope he gets well soon and is able to carry on boxing afterwards.

Herman Jaeger wrote:I'll throw this into it too Toppy while I'm at it

Fukc can you say only therapeutic levels sh1t's so potent only need tiny amounts trace amounts of it for it to do it's magic

Relevance??????????????????????????

No relevance at all really nothing to do with Fury just the thread went off on a slight tangent a seat on Hardtalk awaits Mr David Brailsford Esq I think

With regard depression - how much time off work can you have for it before you get the sack and the job is given to someone else?  A tv presenter still has to present.  A surgeon still has surgery to do.  A teacher still has to teach.  A businessman still has a business to run.  A boxer holding a title still has to defend that title ...

With regard to consideration of depression above - if you were supposed to be preparing for something but instead were found to be partying - would that count against you?

If you had an assignment that had a 6 month deadline, and you had to report on progress after 5 months, then after 5 months you failed to turn up for the progress meeting and then a few days afterwards you reported sick with depression - would that be acceptable with your bosses?

Nore Staat wrote:With regard depression - how much time off work can you have for it before you get the sack and the job is given to someone else?  A tv presenter still has to present.  A surgeon still has surgery to do.  A teacher still has to teach.  A businessman still has a business to run.  A boxer holding a title still has to defend that title ...

With regard to consideration of depression above - if you were supposed to be preparing for something but instead were found to be partying - would that count against you?

If you had an assignment that had a 6 month deadline, and you had to report on progress after 5 months, then after 5 months you failed to turn up for the progress meeting and then a few days afterwards you reported sick with depression - would that be acceptable with your bosses?

Would depend upon the company. Large companies give far more than smaller ones (wife works for BP and they have someone that has been off with stress for over 2 years!).

The partying thing is a bizarre one to complain about. If you were depressed and you spoke to friends they would probably try to get you out and about to help you. Go to the pub, do normal things, anything to try to raise your spirits and get you back to yourself.

A boxer suffering depression could be horrific. What is they are in the ring and decide they don't want to fight back and deserve to take a massive beating? They are unlikely to train properly or at all as they won't care about their obligations so wouldn't be in proper shape for the fight.

Maybe they do need to allow others to fight for the titles. Probably the only thing you can do as nobody will know whether Tyson can even come back from this.

huw wrote:

Fair enough to those that don't like him but seriously some of the flippancy here to mental illness is disgusting.

Not everybody is as nice as me Huw. Living with this reality is a burden I have long since learned to cope with.

Mentioning depression years ago doesn't prove anything, he was a cretin back then and he still is, self diagnosed depression or not.

An expert opinion is always a welcome addition to the debate.

Nore Staat wrote:With regard depression - how much time off work can you have for it before you get the sack and the job is given to someone else?  A tv presenter still has to present.  A surgeon still has surgery to do.  A teacher still has to teach.  A businessman still has a business to run.  A boxer holding a title still has to defend that title ...

With regard to consideration of depression above - if you were supposed to be preparing for something but instead were found to be partying - would that count against you?

If you had an assignment that had a 6 month deadline, and you had to report on progress after 5 months, then after 5 months you failed to turn up for the progress meeting and then a few days afterwards you reported sick with depression - would that be acceptable with your bosses?

In simple terms:

1) The concessions are endless when ever anyone drops the 'M-bomb'. Frankly you'd be harder hit if you had terminal physical illness.

2) The beauty of the M-bomb is that there's no single way you can use it, under any set of circumstances, that won't illicit sympathy. Therefore partying, holidaying, having fun etc etc you get to actually consider 'symptoms' when considered alongside your refusal to do anything you don't want to actually do where then apparently your mental state is a permissable grievance.

Rowley wrote:An expert opinion is always a welcome addition to the debate.

Every bit as expert as yours.

Another day rolls on and we've still nothing more than rumour and self-diagnosis......

I doubt fury is faking it. Hes displayed obvious signs of mental issues for years. The easier thing to do would be to just turn up out of shape and collect a big paycheck if he genuinely didnt care and was finished with sport. Happens regularly in boxing where unmotivated or unfit fighters show up just for the money.

Isnt part of the healing process with mental illness "self diagnosis" and admitting there is something wrong in order to get help?

http://www.badlefthook.com/2016/9/26/13057720/wba-could-strip-tyson-fury-as-they-await-medical-documentation
http://www.badlefthook.com/2016/9/28/13089108/wbo-gives-tyson-fury-10-day-deadline

So he's supposedly got ten days to give an update on his condition or get stripped. The best part is reading the two organisations statements, is that it seems neither of them have any official documentation of Fury's illness. Apparently you can pull out of a sanctioned title fight with an ailment and not even have to provide proof of the existence of the ailment to the sanctioning boards beforehand because, well, fu.ck it. Boxing really is the wild west.

catchweight wrote:Isnt part of the healing process with mental illness "self diagnosis" and admitting there is something wrong in order to get help?

Aye, but once you've admitted it you go for help pretty sharpish, not dither around for four years. I've no doubt he suffers from it but I've also got the feeling he is exaggerating because he's either sh*tting it (unlikely) or just can't be arsed.

You would need to be seriously not arsed to walk away from a career high six figure pay off. He could have just retired or turned up out of shape and took the money

TopHat24/7 wrote:
In simple terms:

1) The concessions are endless when ever anyone drops the 'M-bomb'.  Frankly you'd be harder hit if you had terminal physical illness.

2) The beauty of the M-bomb is that there's no single way you can use it, under any set of circumstances, that won't illicit sympathy.  Therefore partying, holidaying, having fun etc etc you get to actually consider 'symptoms' when considered alongside your refusal to do anything you don't want to actually do where then apparently your mental state is a permissable grievance.

There is a beauty to claiming you have mental health issues? Anyone who wanted to illicit sympathy in a way that will make people wary of them and also a little frightened at the unpredictability of them is probably showing major signs of mental health issues.

ShahenshahG wrote:

catchweight wrote:Isnt part of the healing process with mental illness "self diagnosis" and admitting there is something wrong in order to get help?

Aye, but once you've admitted it you go for help pretty sharpish, not dither around for four years. I've no doubt he suffers from it but I've also got the feeling he is exaggerating because he's either sh*tting it (unlikely) or just can't be arsed.

Do you know he hasn't gone for help?

huw wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:

catchweight wrote:Isnt part of the healing process with mental illness "self diagnosis" and admitting there is something wrong in order to get help?

Aye, but once you've admitted it you go for help pretty sharpish, not dither around for four years. I've no doubt he suffers from it but I've also got the feeling he is exaggerating because he's either sh*tting it (unlikely) or just can't be arsed.

Do you know he hasn't gone for help?  

I know that he hasn't provided any documentation which would have given him the breathing space to delay the fight and protect himself from litigation from the off. He could be having treatment and keep his belts just by providing evidence he is having some treatment done. After dragging it out for so long and with the prospect of him having to go to court - now we hear that he is getting treatment. I have sympathy for his condition but that doesn't mean it wipes out his dithering on/off sh*te.

Disrespectful to the fans turning up at the Crolla fight the day after pulling out the fight...Plain stupid..

If he has depression..Hope he gets well..

But time to strip him and for him to go away and either retire or come back later..

I wanted Fury to beat Wlad to bring excitement to the division....

How wrong I was....Wlad looks more like Mr Saturday night every day.

ShahenshahG wrote:

huw wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:

catchweight wrote:Isnt part of the healing process with mental illness "self diagnosis" and admitting there is something wrong in order to get help?

Aye, but once you've admitted it you go for help pretty sharpish, not dither around for four years. I've no doubt he suffers from it but I've also got the feeling he is exaggerating because he's either sh*tting it (unlikely) or just can't be arsed.

Do you know he hasn't gone for help?  

I know that he hasn't provided any documentation which would have given him the breathing space to delay the fight and protect himself from litigation from the off. He could be having treatment and keep his belts just by providing evidence he is having some treatment done. After dragging it out for so long and with the prospect of him having to go to court - now we hear that he is getting treatment. I have sympathy for his condition but that doesn't mean it wipes out his dithering on/off sh*te.

Getting a doctor to say you had depression would be as simple as telling him you think you are suffering from depression, not sure how this would be any more proof than him telling a newspaper he has depression.

Yep. If there's one thing doctors don't do, it's sign off on questionable diagnosis/treatments for athletes

What needs to happen, has already been mentioned.

Strip him and if he wants to challenge for the title, he gets first option.

catchweight wrote:I doubt fury is faking it. Hes displayed obvious signs of mental issues for years.unmotivated or unfit fighters show up just for the money.

More forum medical professionals......

catchweight wrote:Isnt part of the healing process with mental illness "self diagnosis" and admitting there is something wrong in order to get help?

Think you're confusing it with acceptance in addiction scenarios.

No offence TopHat, but somebody knows when they are depressed. They don't need a doctor to tell them.

huw wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:

huw wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:

catchweight wrote:Isnt part of the healing process with mental illness "self diagnosis" and admitting there is something wrong in order to get help?

Aye, but once you've admitted it you go for help pretty sharpish, not dither around for four years. I've no doubt he suffers from it but I've also got the feeling he is exaggerating because he's either sh*tting it (unlikely) or just can't be arsed.

Do you know he hasn't gone for help?  

I know that he hasn't provided any documentation which would have given him the breathing space to delay the fight and protect himself from litigation from the off. He could be having treatment and keep his belts just by providing evidence he is having some treatment done. After dragging it out for so long and with the prospect of him having to go to court - now we hear that he is getting treatment. I have sympathy for his condition but that doesn't mean it wipes out his dithering on/off sh*te.

Getting a doctor to say you had depression would be as simple as telling him you think you are suffering from depression, not sure how this would be any more proof than him telling a newspaper he has depression.

If it's that simple why hasn't he done it......?

AdamT wrote:No offence TopHat, but somebody knows when they are depressed. They don't need a doctor to tell them.

They need a Dr to prove it to others though.

Couldn't give a rats backside about what Fury feels to himself, it's irrelevant, he has a responsibility and contractual obligation, if he wants to get out of that he needs to prove his excuse.

You don't get to just make up what you want and have everyone go along with it.

He should vacate the titles and be given some sort of champion in recess status for sure. No point hanging on to the titles if they cant be defended.

Its a bit rich coming from Team Klitschko though. How long did Vitali hang on to the title without defending it while he dithered over retirement? And Wladimir has cancelled a fight with some sort of back injury before and then been out on the golf course a few days later.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

AdamT wrote:No offence TopHat, but somebody knows when they are depressed. They don't need a doctor to tell them.

They need a Dr to prove it to others though.

Couldn't give a rats backside about what Fury feels to himself, it's irrelevant, he has a responsibility and contractual obligation, if he wants to get out of that he needs to prove his excuse.

You don't get to just make up what you want and have everyone go along with it.

I get what you're saying.

Though not everyone sees a doctor. I had a mate that clearly had depression. His medical files wouldn't show this, but a rope around his neck and a note prove otherwise.

I don't think he needs to prove anything. It's simple. Just strip him of his belts.

If only a young Tyson (Mike) were around now. He would clean this division out in a few months.

Perhaps Tyson Fury doesn't want to fight Wladimir a second time as much as Alvarez doesn't want to fight GGG a first time.

Anyway Tyson Fury has already said he is just not motivated for this fight, over and over.  Some have suggested he purposely sprained his ankle in order to get the fight postponed from 9th July.  Who as soon as he made the announcement on the 24th June was jetting off to France to party with the fans at the European Championship:

New York Post wrote: The heavyweight champion announced his decision Friday to withdraw from the July 9 fight, claiming he injured his ankle while running in England’s Lake District. He posted pictures of his heavily bruised ankle on Twitter.
While the the pictures suggest a significant injury, it certainly has not slowed up his social life.

On Sunday night, Fury partied with English soccer fans in Nice, the day before England faces Iceland in the Round of 16 at the Euros. A shirtless Fury quickly made friends with hundreds of fans at a bar when he bought hundreds of Jäger bombs and joined in their chants of “England till I die.”

http://nypost.com/2016/06/27/tyson-fury-has-wild-jager-bomb-party-after-ducking-klitschko-fight/

The fact that Fury was able to travel and party a day or two after the announcement, and the picture of his ankle did not reveal swelling but rather old bruising - does tally with the suggestion he incurred the injury two weeks earlier at a techno rave he attended - where several witnesses reported him turning his ankle after leaping over the VIP barrier to get onto the dance floor (read the nypost article).

AdamT wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

AdamT wrote:No offence TopHat, but somebody knows when they are depressed. They don't need a doctor to tell them.

They need a Dr to prove it to others though.

Couldn't give a rats backside about what Fury feels to himself, it's irrelevant, he has a responsibility and contractual obligation, if he wants to get out of that he needs to prove his excuse.

You don't get to just make up what you want and have everyone go along with it.

I get what you're saying.

Though not everyone sees a doctor. I had a mate that clearly had depression. His medical files wouldn't show this, but a rope around his neck and a note prove otherwise.

I don't think he needs to prove anything. It's simple. Just strip him of his belts.

And if he wanted time off work he would have needed a Dr's note.

Mental is no different to physical. If you want it to be accounted for then you prove your condition.

I personally don't care much now. I was a fan of Fury, but couldn't care less if he f..ed off for good. In fact take Wlad and Haye with him and I would be happy.

If you're pulling out of a contracted fight due to injury, you generally provide a medical assessment to support it.  Toppy is right that to pull out for 'depression or bi-polar' you should have a diagnosis - in reality this would be from a psychiatrist.

With regard to his excessive OTT behaviour, partying, buying drinks for everyone etc... as an amateur forum shrink... this is considered typical behaviour for someone with bi-polar disorder during a high period.  Doesn't mean he is, but it is typical behaviour.

In my personal limited experience, some (diagnosed) bi-polar people are relatively normal during highs, and shut themselves away in a room during lows. Others seem like they're on cocaine the whole time when on a high, and are relatively calm and seem normal when on a low.  From what i've seen of Fury he does a good impression of the former. Fairly lucid and coherent, even thoughtful some of the time (his assessment of the the wlad fight just before the fight, was a more accurate assessment of how and why he could win, than I read from anywhere else... completely on the money)...and an off the scale ranting loon at others - some of which appears contrived fight selling/attention seeking - some of which doesn't.

Whichever, you can't make an assessment on someone just from tv snippets even if you're qualified, but neither can you ignore the potential symptoms of mental illness on the grounds that he appears to be out enjoying himself.

milkyboy wrote:In my personal limited experience, some (diagnosed) bi-polar people are relatively normal during highs, and shut themselves away in a room during lows. Others seem like they're on cocaine the whole time when on a high, and are relatively calm and seem normal when on a low.  From what i've seen of Fury he does a good impression of the former.

Seems like a pretty sweet deal to me....

The first postponement was at least partly fraudulent according to evidence IMO.  On the 24th June the Tyson Camp said they couldn't make the July 9th fight because Tyson Fury had seriously injured his ankle.  Yet in the afternoon of 26th June Tyson Fury is videoed in Nice, not only without crutches, but standing and walking normally and then jumping up and down with other fans.  So this is what happened IMO and according to the evidence:

Early into Saturday Morning of the 11th June Tyson Fury turns his ankle after jumping over the VIP barrier of a techno rave event onto the dance floor.  He is seen by several witnesses being helped back into the VIP lounge.

24th June Tyson Fury's camp get charged by UK Anti-Doping for failing a drugs test.  He is also suspended from boxing.  This is kept secret at the time.

24th June Tyson Fury's camp postpone the fight saying Fury has sprained his ankle and so cannot fight on July 9th.  It was later claimed he sprained his ankle on the 15th or 16th June while out running in preparation for his defence.

26th June Tyson Fury is seen in the afternoon in Nice without crutches walking and singing and jumping up and down with fans.  In the evening he is seen in a crowded French bar handing out 200 odd Jager Bombs.

So quite clearly the postponement was linked to the UKAD doping charge.  Quite clearly the injury to Tyson Fury wasn't that bad and he was already more or less recovered from it by the time of the announcement - because he was in Nice less than two days later walking and jumping and singing and drinking.  Hence the first postponement from Jul 9th to Oct 29th - a postponement of nearly four months - was way too long - it only needed postponing by about two weeks and not more than four weeks - because after two weeks there was no swelling and he was jumping up and down and walking as normal.  When Klitschko tore a calf muscle before the "Klitschko - Tyson I" first fight - it was only delayed a month.  

If UKAD hadn't charged Tyson Fury and suspended him on 24th June, it is not clear whether or not the Fury camp would have even delayed the flight, although a delay of about three weeks from the date of the injury may have been advisable - but why wait until the 24th June to announce it, when all the evidence points to the ankle being sprained in the wee hours of the 11th June.  Tennis players sustain similar injuries all the time and are soon back playing with heavy strapping and taping.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/boxing/1346606/tyson-fury-pulled-out-of-wladimir-klitschko-fight-because-he-injured-himself-at-a-rave/
http://nypost.com/2016/06/27/tyson-fury-has-wild-jager-bomb-party-after-ducking-klitschko-fight/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/boxing/36970816

So if I was the WBO and WBA I would look into the first postponement again.

WBO and WBA only look into money....and they want lots of it....

Bunch of crooks posing as Boxing loving Businessmen....

If I was you I'd look at the aftermath of Douglas v Tyson...It'll tell you all you need to know about the alphabet boys...

The Teamsters are more honest..

Nore Staat wrote:The first postponement was at least partly fraudulent according to evidence IMO.  On the 24th June the Tyson Camp said they couldn't make the July 9th fight because Tyson Fury had seriously injured his ankle.  Yet in the afternoon of 26th June Tyson Fury is videoed in Nice, not only without crutches, but standing and walking normally and then jumping up and down with other fans.  So this is what happened IMO and according to the evidence:

Early into Saturday Morning of the 11th June Tyson Fury turns his ankle after jumping over the VIP barrier of a techno rave event onto the dance floor.  He is seen by several witnesses being helped back into the VIP lounge.

24th June Tyson Fury's camp get charged by UK Anti-Doping for failing a drugs test.  He is also suspended from boxing.  This is kept secret at the time.

24th June Tyson Fury's camp postpone the fight saying Fury has sprained his ankle and so cannot fight on July 9th.  It was later claimed he sprained his ankle on the 15th or 16th June while out running in preparation for his defence.

26th June Tyson Fury is seen in the afternoon in Nice without crutches walking and singing and jumping up and down with fans.  In the evening he is seen in a crowded French bar handing out 200 odd Jager Bombs.

So quite clearly the postponement was linked to the UKAD doping charge.  Quite clearly the injury to Tyson Fury wasn't that bad and he was already more or less recovered from it by the time of the announcement - because he was in Nice less than two days later walking and jumping and singing and drinking.  Hence the first postponement from Jul 9th to Oct 29th - a postponement of nearly four months - was way too long - it only needed postponing by about two weeks and not more than four weeks - because after two weeks there was no swelling and he was jumping up and down and walking as normal.  When Klitschko tore a calf muscle before the "Klitschko - Tyson I" first fight - it was only delayed a month.  

If UKAD hadn't charged Tyson Fury and suspended him on 24th June, it is not clear whether or not the Fury camp would have even delayed the flight, although a delay of about three weeks from the date of the injury may have been advisable - but why wait until the 24th June to announce it, when all the evidence points to the ankle being sprained in the wee hours of the 11th June.  Tennis players sustain similar injuries all the time and are soon back playing with heavy strapping and taping.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/boxing/1346606/tyson-fury-pulled-out-of-wladimir-klitschko-fight-because-he-injured-himself-at-a-rave/
http://nypost.com/2016/06/27/tyson-fury-has-wild-jager-bomb-party-after-ducking-klitschko-fight/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/boxing/36970816

So if I was the WBO and WBA I would look into the first postponement again.

Most sounds pretty plausible.

Only area I can pick a whole in this is that they probably wouldn't have been able to postpone for only 3 weeks. Venue, security and everything else needed may not be available at the shorter notice. Fans would probably have needed more time to get everything sorted for the new date.

Boxing is a business and if a show is obviously going to make a loss they will try to get out of it.

Other thought is that a three week layoff and recover would be likely to set your training back to the start, especially if you aren't a natural athlete. I train regularly, recently took a 5 week break (no exercise at all). In this time I've lost a lot of strength and fitness levels are crap compared to what they normally are.

Well.......would you look at that, latest fight suspension ACTUALLY coincided with ANOTHER drugs indiscretion.

Won't stop the apologist M-bomb brigade clearing him of any responsibility though sadly....

It makes absolutely no difference does it toppy? Coke, alcohol whatever - you think it's a completely self inflicted choice he's made, others think it's a symptom of underlying mental illness. People take recreational drugs for both reasons.

This 'revelation' does and will change nothing about anyone's opinions. The only opinion that counts will be the shrink's and even that won't convince people with entrenched views - given its a view taken in response to someone's declared feelings and actions not something that's definitively proved with a blood test or an MRI scan.

https://youtu.be/V33Zq8vObx0

https://youtu.be/JQR-5L1uWfg

On the home front won't deny I'm quite looking forward to Whyte Lewison cue someone like Hammer telling me how can you enjoy that they're both garbage am under no illusions as to what the fight is just could be agoodfight maybe Lewison with the better pedigree but inactive and Whyte getting some fundamentals now with Tibbs only seen Whyte once and Lewison on youtube battle of the barbershop as Spencer succinctly puts it you're allowed to enjoy this one nothing wrong with that:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aL6N8h0Oodo

http://www.skysports.com/boxing/news/12183/10581466/dillian-whyte-and-ian-lewison-both-promise-knockouts

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3v7i86oZx58