Southgate's England and the next England manager

First topic message reminder :

Get to close the Allardyce thread in record time, now caretaker manager Southgate has a chance to stake his claim for the job, whilst we all discuss almost anyone else as the thought of Southgate worries many.

im a glutton for punishment so i will give the side a chance before slating it, being saying for years england need a change in tactics and selection so im not going to start shooting down a man who's trying something different

I haven't got a problem with Southate changing the formation tonight etc, but i do think we will lose and lose comfortably, do we really have the players to suddenly learn and implement this formation?

probably not, as a nation we fairly ridged and unintelligent footballers but i see no harm in trying. its what friendlies are for

We've done well for the 1st 30 mins. Looked fairly comfortable.

This is just a pointless exercise really

Podolski screamer 1-0, nice way to bow out

Reasonable performance. Vardys not really anything more than an impact sub, Keane and Livermore did alright.

To be honest I think yesterday was more a case of introducing and testing a formation more than new players. I would expect Southgate to continue with this formation even when the established players return.

--------------Hart----------------
----Dier----Stones---Cahill------
Walker----------------------Rose
-----Henderson----?-------------
Lallana------Kane--------Sterling

Pretty much how I would see England going forward using that formation. Back six looks pretty much nailed on, Dier has to play in that back three, like he does for Spurs. Had to omit Alli, as I don't see where he fits, he can't play deep alongside Henderson & Lallana seems more suited playing in that wide, pressing role. Struggle to really find another CM to play alongside JH, as Drinkwater is pony, Wilshere hasn't impressed at B'mouth & Livermore is just a no-no.

I'd expect Dier-Henderson will end up being first choice centre midfield pairing, meaning Smalling, Keane or Phil Jones plays in the back three. 

Only other option is to play Lallana deeper like he does for Liverpool and play Alli further up with Kane and Sterling. That doesn't seem particularly sturdy defensive-wise though. I do think Sterling may find his options more limited using this formation as he's unlikely to be a wing back but in the 3 forward line he may be too inclined to go wide, leaving no space for the wing backs and not enough support for the forward. Alli and Lallana may actually be better suited to his formation. If Sterling was a better finisher, he'd be a good option for the striker role due to his pressing etc. but he's not instinctive enough.

I really don't think the back three will be what we go with long term, and I don't think it suits our players best

Hart
Walker- Stones - Cahill - rose
Dier - Henderson
Sterling - Alli - Lallana
Kane

Is our best line up. Three at the back means we're adding another not very good CB in at the expense of Alli/Sterling, which in my eyes is silly

I agree with Crimey. I think diet will be used in midfield with Henderson. I also think the front three will be Lallana, Kate and alli. Sterling will have to show more consistency and more of an end product to put serious pressure on alli or Lallana.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I really don't think the back three will be what we go with long term, and I don't think it suits our players best

Hart
Walker- Stones - Cahill - rose
             Dier - Henderson
Sterling -   Alli -     Lallana
              Kane

Is our best line up. Three at the back means we're adding another not very good CB in at the expense of Alli/Sterling, which in my eyes is silly

Sorry, but I can't agree with this. Both rose and Walker are better suited to playing wingback instead of a traditional fullback position. Plus the extra man in midfield is always important in international games. Losing sterling for a more solid defence is a sacrifice worth making in my opinion.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I really don't think the back three will be what we go with long term, and I don't think it suits our players best

Hart
Walker- Stones - Cahill - rose
             Dier - Henderson
Sterling -   Alli -     Lallana
              Kane

Is our best line up. Three at the back means we're adding another not very good CB in at the expense of Alli/Sterling, which in my eyes is silly

Problem with that is when Lallana is asked to provide width he doesn't perform as well as he does more damage in the centre of the pitch.

Needs better midfielder with Henderson and Dier moved to centre back.

think the glaring weakness is midfield but there really isnt much to choose from. carrick is now too old, wilshere a overated sicknote. think henderson is fairly overated as well but better than the rest. the only other one i can think of is milner? who isnt even playing there (if your putting average players there at least let them have legs and will work hard)

England really do lack any good central midfielders right now.

Dele Alli and Ross Barkley have both been moved further forward, when they started their careers it looked like they could both have been central midfielders but both lacked discipline and so have been moved forward. Perhaps in a few years we'll see them drop back. 

James Ward-Prowse is probably the front runner right now, but he's still young and time will tell if he can do it on the international stage. 

Danny Drinkwater was a massively overrated part of the Leicester triumph and I'm not sure he ever was or ever will be good enough for international football. Jack Wilshere is always injured and when he does play, his fear of injury seems to hold him back. If he could ever get over it I think him and Henderson could be a good pairing as Henderson could do the bulk of his running. Fabien Delph has stagnated at Manchester City, needs a move to try and reinvigorate his career as he's better than a lot of the alternatives. I'm not sure Jake Livermore is the answer, he's perfectly fine and I don't even think he'd be too bad of an option for the squad, especially if back three is used as he can cover both centre back and central midfield but he's not particularly good at anything. Mark Noble has been a missed opportunity, he's getting older and his form has dropped off, his time to be selected was a few years ago most likely.

Harry Winks or Will Hughes are probably the best options from the youth squads, but neither has done enough to justify selection as of yet. There's a possibility Jonjo Shelvey will be able to recreate his Championship form at Premier League level and with Rafa's guidance force his way into the England squad again.

Or will Rooney move to a new club, play deeper and have a swansong.

Will Hughes needs to stick or twist, or he risks being another Tom Ince.

Shelvey is a big IF, for him replicating in the prem. And that depends on RAFA staying which in turn depends on how much money Mike Ashley gives him.

Shelvey also has that wreckless streak that causes his team issues.

It does concern me that Henderson is our best midfielder. He's decent but nothing special (imo)

Our choice of backups at CB is better than at CM, so it will be Dier in midfield with Henderson, and probably Smalling with Cahill and Stones at the back.

Possibly Keane if he continues to play like he did yesterday

I think Barkley could be trusted next to Henderson if we had 3 centre backs behind him. But it is a hard call; Carrick is the best choice in terms of ability but he's not got the legs. Nobes has lost form, Drinkwater is average, Delph needs to rejuvenate his career, and Livermore is not good enough. Although the Shelvey stuff is just funny.

Why are so many picking John Stones, he's been shown to hugely over rated this season and is a massive liability.

Was good against Liverpool, improving and young. Furthermore, he's good on the ball, and if we're picking either a 3 central defender system or the two technically limited central midfielders then I'd want a ball playing centre back like him.

Especially in a three, that extra protected will be wonderful.

And I'd definitely not be targeting him as the weakness in City's approach to defending.

Barkley has been pushed forward, hence the praise he's receiving as of late. Davies & Schneiderlin/Gueye offer the protection & discipline he lacks, so don't expect him to play alongside Henderson in a deeper role.

Stones is a no-brainer for inclusion. Playing this system, means we have to choose three from Stones, Cahill, Smalling, Jones & the inexperienced, Keane. Not a big selection.

Shelvey being discussed is 'funny'. Not really, six caps already & more than technically capable. Not advocating him this season, for obvious reasons, but if the likes of Livermore are receiving caps, then there is no reason whatsoever, why Jonjo's possible inclusion can't be discussed next season. We ain't blessed no more in that department.

Barkley is at his best when he can take chances and have the freedom to try things that don't come off. Hence why he has flourished further forward.

But it is too risky in the deeper role as he will lose the ball in areas that will expose the defence.

Barkley would need to oust one of the two attacking midfielders who based on current form would probably be Lallana and Alli.

6/10 performance that - my word qualifiers like these are boring

They need to start following the davis up blueprint with promotion and relegation in qualification, it's getting utterly pointless now.

I don't want to be demeaning to smaller nations.

But when 2 years of games are basically friendlies and pointless games like these, it really harms international football in general

GSC wrote:I don't want to be demeaning to smaller nations.

But when 2 years of games are basically friendlies and pointless games like these, it really harms international football in general

I wouldn't mind if they tried some positive football but all they did was sit back. Thought Defoe didn't do as well as the pundits mentioned. We seemed far better with Rashford and Vardy on.

They are like that for the better sides.

The Welsh, the Irish, the Scottish are all examples of nations you can look at who disagree with the monotony of qualification from our viewpoint.

I'm not sure the Spanish and Germans complain so much about being able to get good time together and in the winning habit either.

England got in a great winning habit ahead of the last tournament. Disposing of teams that turn up to park the bus didn't make either side into a superpower.

I think international football is bloated with meaningless or uncompetitive fixtures. Rather see breaks abolished during the season and have some kind of summer qualifying tournament.

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:They are like that for the better sides.

The Welsh, the Irish, the Scottish are all examples of nations you can look at who disagree with the monotony of qualification from our viewpoint.

I'm not sure the Spanish and Germans complain so much about being able to get good time together and in the winning habit either.

That winning habit has served England well at recent tournam....ah

GSC wrote:England got in a great winning habit ahead of the last tournament. Disposing of teams that turn up to park the bus didn't make either side into a superpower.

I think international football is bloated with meaningless or uncompetitive fixtures. Rather see breaks abolished during the season and have some kind of summer qualifying tournament.

Players would start breaking down, as it is, those years when there are no international competition the summer is the only break players will see. Even after World Cup years you can notice a difference in those players that went to the tournament.

I think it's workable if you scrap midseason breaks where players fly all over the world. Host a qualifying group in a neutral location, have each team play each other once. Have Some prequalifying for teams that didn't make the current tournament.

Would never happen, but international football is a pretty terrible product for around 95% of each 2 year period.

Ah so if it didn't work for us then it didn't work at all. Almost further serving my point about how other nations value these more than us

Or maybe it's kinda irrelevant since top teams are rarely pushed close to full intensity. The winter break thing has much more credibility as a theory.

The problem is that the other nations don't complain about it and the "lesser" nations really care for it.

I think the game is less important than getting together, but how do you know about how players follow managers instructions or how they react to each other in competitive fixtures.

You may call them uncompetitive, but we've failed to qualify for a tournament twice in my living memory and we are just one of the slightly better teams. This idea has absolutely no care for anyone but England

A summer would not have anything for prolonged form or injury spells that means a player misses a summer of preparation and then is surely hindered in making a squad later.

England officially don't complain about it either...

International football to me is headed down a route of bloated mediocrity, and even disregarding England, last summers Euros was an exercise in mediocrity. God knows how the WC expansion is going to look, but my guess is a month of largely dire, scrappy football before we get any meaningful games of quality. But the "lesser" nations will be there so great!

Less is more

Never mentioned official channels.

I don't disagree on the tournaments. I don't think they need more numbers. I understand why, but it somewhat lessens the achievement so I don't think it improves the tournament for lesser teams to get there easier.

However, sarcasm aside, I don't think your point on the competitive qualifiers adds up. It seems to be a mainly English problem and I think it is easy when looking at how the Irish, Welsh and Scottish approach these games to see the benefits of the system.

Knockouts would produce too many shock results and lessen the tournament quality, so I agree with groups. Think it needs to be home and away for fairness and for fans and money spreading.

I would say the only thing I disagree with in the system is friendlies, and they're as much, if not more, the fault of greedy FAs. I'd be all for these being used more as training camps and England having a 2-3 week camp every summer of 30+ players. But that is unfair on players,they deserve downtime

Rooney dropped. Suspect that may be that

The full squad: Jack Butland (Stoke), Fraser Forster (Southampton), Joe Hart (Torino, on loan from Man City), Tom Heaton (Burnley);

Ryan Bertrand (Southampton), Gary Cahill (Chelsea), Nathaniel Clyne (Liverpool), Aaron Cresswell (West Ham), Ben Gibson (Middlesbrough), Phil Jones (Man Utd), Chris Smalling (Man Utd), John Stones (Man City), Kieran Trippier (Tottenham), Kyle Walker (Tottenham);

Dele Alli (Tottenham), Eric Dier (Tottenham), Adam Lallana (Liverpool), Jesse Lingard (Man Utd), Jake Livermore (West Brom), Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain (Arsenal), Raheem Sterling (Man City);

Jermain Defoe (Sunderland), Harry Kane (Tottenham), Marcus Rashford (Man Utd), Jamie Vardy (Leicester).

Goalkeepers
Jack Butland (Stoke), Fraser Forster (Southampton), Joe Hart (Torino, on loan from Man City), Tom Heaton (Burnley); 


Defence
Ryan Bertrand (Southampton), Gary Cahill (Chelsea), Nathaniel Clyne (Liverpool), Aaron Cresswell (West Ham), Ben Gibson (Middlesbrough), Phil Jones (Man Utd), Chris Smalling (Man Utd), John Stones (Man City), Kieran Trippier (Tottenham), Kyle Walker (Tottenham); 


Midfielder
Dele Alli (Tottenham), Eric Dier (Tottenham), Adam Lallana (Liverpool), Jesse Lingard (Man Utd), Jake Livermore (West Brom), Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain (Arsenal), Raheem Sterling (Man City);


Forwards
Jermain Defoe (Sunderland), Harry Kane (Tottenham), Marcus Rashford (Man Utd), Jamie Vardy (Leicester).

Best XI from that is probably

I think he's looking at his players...

Rooney has retired from the international game. The 'Golden Generation' is now extinct.

An international career laced with the feeling of what might have been. Excellent in 2004, but little else of note in international tournaments, despite the massive hype, due to various problems with form and fitness.

Surprised at the timing, given that he was retiring from international duty next Summer anyway.

However, I'm going to give Rooney his dues here - immense credit should go to him for putting his ego aside with this decision. Southgate obviously still fancied him as an England player between now and the World Cup, and let's be frank, I suspect most of us in Rooney's position wouldn't have been able to turn down the chance of possibly playing in the big one on the grandest stage of all that one lad last time, even if we knew in our hearts that we were getting the opportunity at the expense of others who might be slightly more deserving and because of past exploits.

Fair play to him.

With Rooney in general the overriding sense is what might have been.

Won everything at club level, numerous individual records, but the feeling remains he never quite reached his potential.

88Chris05 wrote:Surprised at the timing

I'm not surprised. The back-to-back goals for Everton has got the media creaming themselves about his England chances again, so I imagine Southgate has quickly nipped it in the bud, and given him a call. Southgate doesn't need to be dealing with Rooney questions at every media event & press conference going forward. He's had his time, but we need to move on.

Just John wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:Surprised at the timing

I'm not surprised. The back-to-back goals for Everton has got the media creaming themselves about his England chances again, so I imagine Southgate has quickly nipped it in the bud, and given him a call. Southgate doesn't need to be dealing with Rooney questions at every media event & press conference going forward. He's had his time, but we need to move on.

Southgate wanted him to be a part of his next squad. It's Rooney who has declined the call-up.

I don't believe Southgate wanted Rooney in the squad at all