NZ v Ireland, Chicago, 4 November 2016

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IRELAND v NEW ZEALAND
5 November 2016
15:00 CDT / 20:00 GMT
Soldier Field, Chicago, USA

Live on eir Sport and BT Sport

Referee: Mathieu Raynal (France)
Assistant Referees: Luke Pearce (England), Ben Whitehouse (Wales)
TMO: Rowan Kitt (England)

A. Head to Head

28 Played 28
0 Won 27
1 Drawn 1
27 Lost 0
310 Points 812

B. Recent Form

24 November 2013
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
22 – 24 to New Zealand

23 June 2012
Waikato Stadium, Hamilton
60 – 0 to New Zealand

16 June 2012
Rugby League Park, Christchurch
22 – 19 to New Zealand

9 June 2012
Eden Park, Auckland
42 – 10 to New Zealand

20 November 2010
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
18 – 38 to New Zealand

C. Teams


NEW ZEALAND 

1. Joe Moody
2. Dane Coles
3. Owen Franks
4. Patrick Tuipulotu
5. Jerome Kaino
6. Liam Squire
7. Sam Cane
8. Kieran Read – captain
9. Aaron Smith
10. Beauden Barrett
11. Julian Savea
12. Ryan Crotty
13. George Moala
14. Waisake Naholo
15. Ben Smith

16. Codie Taylor
17. Ofa Tu’ungafasi
18. Charlie Faumuina
19. Scott Barrett
20. Ardie Savea
21. TJ Perenara
22. Aaron Cruden
23. Malakai Fekitoa


IRELAND

1 McGrath
2 Best
3 Furlong
4 Ryan
5 Toner
6 Stander
7 Murphy
8 Heaslip
9 Murray
10 Sexton
11 Zebo
12 Henshaw
13 Payne
14 Trimble
15 Kearney
16 Cronin
17 Healy
18 Bealham
19 Dillane
20 van der Flier
21 Marmion
22 Carbery
23 Ringrose

Only difference from the team that was speculated earlier in the thread is Donnacha Ryan starts ahead of Ultan Dillane. Payne is at 13, Kearney at 15- Carberry and Ringrose both on the bench.

We'll need to be finding touch with our kicks- we do have potentially strong defensive lineout.

I like the bench. Carbery and Ringrose in line to make their debuts and against the ABs of all teams. Well deserved though.

Exactly the squad I predicted with the exception of Murphy for VDF.

I look at that team and can't see Joe making a sub in the backline unless forced to through injuries.
Decent depth in the pack on the bench, could argue except for Best/Cronin that all other forwards on the bench should be starting.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:I look at that team and can't see Joe making a sub in the backline unless forced to through injuries.
Decent depth in the pack on the bench, could argue except for Best/Cronin that all other forwards on the bench should be starting.

Well if we're down in the last 20 minutes, can't imagine the backs on that bench coming on and tipping the balance. Not really fair to them. But will be interesting to see how they go.

Pleased Ryan is starting; a much underrated player. Dillane will be good in the last 20. Disappointed not to see John Ryan.

Kearney? I've had it with Schmidt now. I've had enough of his favouritism to Kearney. I'd have no problem with him starting ringrose with Payne at full back but this just smacks of jobs for the boys.

NZ team named (original post updated). Key points:

Kaino at lock and Squires at 6. Was speculated about during the week. Mobile pack, but may be an issue at set piece for us.

Noholo and Savea on the wing, means no second kicking option at the back

Moala starts at centre. Tuipulotu starts at lock, Cane starts at open side and Smith starts at halfback.

Irish team updated

Maine man wrote:Kearney? I've had it with Schmidt now. I've had enough of his favouritism to Kearney. I'd have no problem with him starting ringrose with Payne at full back but this just smacks of jobs for the boys.

You think with a weeks prep time Ringrose will be ready to face the Worlds Number 1 team on his debut? There's being bold in selection and then there is being unfair to younger players. Putting those two guys in the squad is a big statement of intent for me. I would have much preferred Marshall and Henshaw with Payne at 15 but if Kearney can do his job then we are in with a shot. Once Marshall wasn't included (odd decision despite Ulsters ropey form) this was the best back line available.

I'm looking forward to watching another 80 minutes of the Irish sponge, where we build up a small lead through penalties and then attempt to soak up all of the pressure from the All Blacks until we inevitably burst and are left battered for the rest of the series.

Apologies, Schmidtoids, but this team isn't going to win. I would love to be wrong, but I won't be. I sincerely hope that by the second test we will see an improved team, especially in the backline. Rob Kearney...

Sigh.

Notch wrote:

Maine man wrote:Kearney? I've had it with Schmidt now. I've had enough of his favouritism to Kearney. I'd have no problem with him starting ringrose with Payne at full back but this just smacks of jobs for the boys.

You think with a weeks prep time Ringrose will be ready to face the Worlds Number 1 team on his debut? There's being bold in selection and then there is being unfair to younger players. Putting those two guys in the squad is a big statement of intent for me. I would have much preferred Marshall and Henshaw with Payne at 15 but if Kearney can do his job then we are in with a shot. Once Marshall wasn't included (odd decision despite Ulsters ropey form) this was the best back line available.

If Rob Kearney is struggling to do his job at Pro12 level, you can bet he will be struggling to do it against the All Blacks.

This is not the best backline available by a long shot.

I didn't say that. I said its the best back line given the squad selected.

Notch wrote:I didn't say that. I said its the best back line given the squad selected.

I know, I disagree with that. We have three number eights in the back row, one of whom is the 4th choice openside flanker at Leinster. We have a 15 who is well past his sell-by date and easily the worst starting 15 across the 4 provinces (and should really be behind Nacewa at Leinster).

There is Zebo and Payne at fullback, Gilroy as an option on the wing and the impressive Ringrose at 13. I genuinely don't see an issue with starting him for this game as we are expected to lose and at least he offers us a threat in the wider channels. His defence has also been exemplary and his decision making is spot on. Anyway, I'm glad we will be likely to see him at some stage on this tour.

Having looked at the NZ squad again,seems they are rotating players.
Not only Lienert-Brown,Todd,Crockett,and Dagg all rested none of who
have been failures.Bench looks rather light weight given Lock stocks too.

emack2 wrote:Having looked at the NZ squad again,seems they are rotating players.
Not only Lienert-Brown,Todd,Crockett,and Dagg all rested none of who
have been failures.Bench looks rather light weight given Lock stocks too.

Standard practice for the northern tour. They'll give everyone a run in the first two games. Part of keeping a happy squad. Locks are out due to injury/bereavement. Irelands chances have improved. If I was Ireland I'd be looking to control the lineouts amd try and slow down the pace of the game and control possession and territory.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Notch wrote:I didn't say that. I said its the best back line given the squad selected.

I know, I disagree with that. We have three number eights in the back row, one of whom is the 4th choice openside flanker at Leinster. We have a 15 who is well past his sell-by date and easily the worst starting 15 across the 4 provinces (and should really be behind Nacewa at Leinster).

There is Zebo and Payne at fullback, Gilroy as an option on the wing and the impressive Ringrose at 13. I genuinely don't see an issue with starting him for this game as we are expected to lose and at least he offers us a threat in the wider channels. His defence has also been exemplary and his decision making is spot on. Anyway, I'm glad we will be likely to see him at some stage on this tour.

I'm not sure why anyone expected Ringrose to start. Schmidt always takes the same approach - he brings new guys into camp to observe them and to learn his systems, then gives them things to work on whilst generally sticking to his previous team,

If an injury occurs generally he will go outside camp and bring in someone experienced to his systems to start rather than put untested guys in, for example if Henshaw got injured I fancy he would fly in Luke Marshall to start rather than risk Ringrose if he doesn't think he's ready.

Agree or not he values the playing system and trust players can implement it more than individual players or provincial form when it comes to the match squad.

I trust Schmidt has a plan in this selection, and this may work for periods of the game but don't believe it will be anywhere good enough to win. The ABs are superior in every area and will adapt to whatever approach we take and win comfortably in the end.

The Irish sponge system is sometimes effective but we must at least add some counter attacking threat if we wish to beat the AB. We actually showed some attacking impetus against SA and that was largely due to the players that were selected who offered something fresh and something new. In fact, I thought the new players did an excellent job and adapted quickly. They only received their opportunity because of injury.

I realise there is an inherent hesitancy to cap new players in Ireland or give the shirt to the less experienced man, but the reality is that we need to. We are instead giving the shirt to some seriously out-of-form, out-of-date players. We have young players who are keen and hungry to play at the top level. Sometimes they are the better option regardless of experience. For example, what is the rational behind Jordi Murphy being preferred to van der Flier? Because he was "solid" against SA? Why is mediocrity the acceptable standard and grants you the shirt for Ireland? I thought Schmidt was supposed to be ruthless. JvdF is the starting 7 at Leinster, followed by SOB and Leavy. Murphy isn't close to that standard.

Why would we continue to select the Henshaw-Payne midfield when there is an abundance of options now who are naturally suited to those positions? Why would we select Rob Kearney when he is outplayed in every facet of the game against his Irish rivals? It just proves to me that we would have had the exact same thing had he been fit against SA. No wonder fans were happy that he was unavailable for selection because we wouldn't have seen Marshall, Olding, Henshaw at 13 or Payne and O'Halloran at 15.

I completely agree with what Donnacha Ryan said this morning:

http://www.the42.ie/donnacha-ryan-ireland-new-zealand-2016-3062080-Nov2016/

We don't have the team to do that though. We have a rather blunt midfield and we have a worrying lack pace in the wider channels. We simply won't keep up with the pace of the game. I seriously worry about the game plan and subsequent selections that Schmidt makes when we are still persisting with that midfield and back three.

I think Schmidt is not that interested in natural gifts -he trusts the likes of Murphy, Trimble, Kearney to implement the work off the ball ti infuence the game better than the newer guys...for now.

Time will tell if he is correct but in some ways he has a point - we won't outscore the ABs trying to outplay them, even our most 'naturally gifted' (a term I don't agree with) footballers have mediocre skills by NZ standards so maybe solid is the way to keep the game tight and then use some more attacking players off the bench.

Personally I think we will lose either way but hopefully we can learn some things for the Dublin game.

It'll be two losses so no need for any fuss from any nervous souls dreaming up magnificent celebrations.  There - I said it.  So that gives us a hope at least of actually winning one  I hate the 'We could do this' brigade that always turn up in the media around this time - kiss-of-death basterdes.
These games against New Zealand will be good practice (once again) for finding a few good men to take our as ever overblown hopes with us into yet another WC.  If the team do well (as in containing the All Blacks in two tightish games) then there'll be something to hope for come the Six Nations.  Be realistic, that's always and forever our genuine standard.  Sometimes, occasionally, we rise above it - more often than not we just about reach it.

BOD got his first start on tour to Australia. Ireland got whupped 46 - 10. He went on to have fairly successful career.

Ringrose is no BOD, but I think starting him against the All Blacks is not a massive risk. In fact, if we get tanked - well so did SA and AUS. If we do well - all well and good.

Kearney might know the systems, but does he currently have the ability to execute them. Both defensively and in attack Payne is the superior option now.

Dont you guys think this is a special week for Ireland to be playing the All Blacks?

When one considers the alignment of sporting history. with the Cubs winning the World series in Chicago only 24 hours ago an achievement they have been pursuing since 1908, Ireland have been after those All Blacks since 1905.

The curse of the cubs is one of the best stories in sport, where a supporter took his goat to every home game nearly 80 years ago, and the Cubs enjoyed success every time the goat was present. then some of the crowd didnt like the goat, because it smelled, so the goat was banned from going to games. the cubs started losing, and the owner of the goat put the "Curse of the Cubs" on the team and the cubs have never since, until this week, enjoyed the ultimate victory.

I just find it special that the All Blacks without their locks out, just happen to be playing Ireland, in all places Chicago.

Have a read:



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/baseball/2016/11/03/chicago-cubs-break-108-year-curse-of-the-billy-goat-winning-worl/

With Murphy (another jumper) and Kearney in I can only imagine we'll be kicking to touch at every opportunity. That's the only sense I can seen in either of those selections. Murphy was very good in SA but hasn't had the best season with Leinster and is comfortably behind VDF. He does give us 4 decent options in the line out. With NZ's slightly weaker then normal second row its the set piece we will be targeting.

Really worried about this game. Kearney will surely be exposed again, his tackling is incredibly poor and his attacking game is effectively non existent (hopefully he proves me wrong and has a stormer). Is Marshall fit? I had presumed he was injured as he looked very good with Henshaw in SA.

That is some forwards impact on our bench however, hopefully Schmidt uses them with enough time to make a difference.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Dont you guys think this is a special week for Ireland  to be playing the All Blacks?

When one considers the alignment of sporting history. with the Cubs winning the World series in Chicago only 24 hours ago an achievement they have been pursuing since 1908, Ireland have been after those All Blacks since 1905.

The curse of the cubs is one of the best stories in sport, where a supporter took his goat to every home game nearly 80 years ago, and the Cubs enjoyed success every time the goat was present. then some of the crowd didnt like the goat, because it smelled, so the goat was banned from going to games. the cubs started losing, and the owner of the goat put the "Curse of the Cubs" on the team and the cubs have never since, until this week,  enjoyed the ultimate victory.

I just find it special that the All Blacks without their locks out, just happen to be playing Ireland, in all places Chicago.

Have a read:



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/baseball/2016/11/03/chicago-cubs-break-108-year-curse-of-the-billy-goat-winning-worl/

Interesting story about the curse.  I didn't see or read much about that game - so the question is, did a goat turn up?  It wasn't much of a curse (even if it lasted 108 years!) if it let the Cubs off the hook without a goat turning up.  Bad reflection on good curses.

We got a pretty salty and much more vicious curse going in these parts.  It involves a GAA football team, Mayo.  They last won an All Ireland in 1951,  And the story goes that as they journeyed home in loud and raucous party mood, the team passed a funeral and failed to pay the right kind of respect.  This angered the Priest who was attending to the funeral and he lay down a curse on Mayo.  For as long as any of that winning team remain alive, Mayo would never win another All Ireland title.  And so it's proved to be so far, even though they've showed in 10 finals since (two replays).

Fly I dont know if a goat made it to the game, but if I see a goat in the crowd tomorrow morning I'll know that Fly isnt far away.

Just another interesting spin off the "Curse of the Cubs" story, back in 1985, in the movie 'back to the fiuture 2" the prediction was made that the Chicago cubs would be a long shot to win the World Series in 2015, and that McFly's nemesis Biff Tannen would be elected President!!! the character Biff Tannen was based on Donald Trump. How good is that Fly?

aucklandlaurie wrote:Fly I dont know if a goat made it to the game, but if I see a goat in the crowd tomorrow morning I'll know that Fly isnt far away.

Just another interesting spin off the "Curse of the Cubs" story, back in 1985, in the movie 'back to the fiuture 2" the prediction was made that the Chicago cubs would be a long shot to win the World Series in 2015, and that McFly's nemesis Biff Tannen  would be elected President!!! the character Biff Tannen was based on Donald Trump. How good is that Fly?

There's a mountain of discussion on that little morsel, Laurie! Although it looks like it might be a mad and whacky Doc Brown that makes it to the White House before McFly

SecretFly wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:Fly I dont know if a goat made it to the game, but if I see a goat in the crowd tomorrow morning I'll know that Fly isnt far away.

Just another interesting spin off the "Curse of the Cubs" story, back in 1985, in the movie 'back to the fiuture 2" the prediction was made that the Chicago cubs would be a long shot to win the World Series in 2015, and that McFly's nemesis Biff Tannen  would be elected President!!! the character Biff Tannen was based on Donald Trump. How good is that Fly?

There's a mountain of discussion on that little morsel, Laurie!   Although it looks like it might be a mad and whacky Doc Brown that makes it to the White House before McFly

LOL very mad and whacky. I sit down here at the bottom of the World and look at the Americans and ask myself "for a country with over 250 million people Are these two the best they could come up with?" the rest of us are all doomed.

Golden wrote:With Murphy (another jumper) and Kearney in I can only imagine we'll be kicking to touch at every opportunity. That's the only sense I can seen in either of those selections. Murphy was very good in SA but hasn't had the best season with Leinster and is comfortably behind VDF. He does give us 4 decent options in the line out. With NZ's slightly weaker then normal second row its the set piece we will be targeting.

Really worried about this game. Kearney will surely be exposed again, his tackling is incredibly poor and his attacking game is effectively non existent (hopefully he proves me wrong and has a stormer). Is Marshall fit? I had presumed he was injured as he looked very good with Henshaw in SA.

That is some forwards impact on our bench however, hopefully Schmidt uses them with enough time to make a difference.

Yep.

rapidsnowman wrote:BOD got his first start on tour to Australia. Ireland got whupped 46 - 10. He went on to have fairly successful career.

Never beat the ABs, never past a RWC QF, dropped in his only successful Lions series, 1 GS in 14 attempts.

Hardly what one would class as successful.

He was only one player............... when all Ireland had were about three in total, with only one and half of them playing at any one time.
BOD did okay

Wishing the Irish well of course, but just don't see how this NZ team can be put under sustained pressure for long enough to get anywhere near winning.

Hope I am wrong.

SecretFly wrote:He was only one player............... when all Ireland had were about three in total, with only one and half of them playing at any one time.
BOD did okay

Sure we only have 3 now ... Payne, CJ and Bundiaki....

GavinDragon wrote:Wishing the Irish well of course, but just don't see how this NZ team can be put under sustained pressure for long enough to get anywhere near winning.

Hope I am wrong.

I can. AB's lineout might struggle, playing with more limited kicking options this time, Soldier field is narrow, and lack goal kicker. Looks like a situation tailor made for a kicking, territorial based game plan.

Given Soldier Field is quite narrow and there's a wide concourse around the pitch, kicks should be aimed well enough so that throw-ins can't be taken quickly.    The New Zealand lineout should be tested early on to see how well they cope, and to see if their throw can be put under pressure.

Attacking out wide will likely bear little fruit, but in around the breakdown with quick hands and hard carries should pay some dividends and make distance.   Argentina did this quite successfully in their test. Power plays against NZ in this area were quite effective for us before.

A patient controlling game that does not tire out players is what's needed to combat the forced pace from New Zealand.  I'd also think that replacements should be delayed by a few minutes longer so that the young, pacy bench can withstand the greater temp of the 55-75 high-scoring period.   And that Ireland can attack themselves.  

Could be an interesting match to see how respective tactics work out.

I've gone for a 1-5 point win for Ireland.

I like your confidence, PH and hope youre correct. The narrow pitch is definitely a help to us. I'd say lineouts and scrums could also be an area to attack NZ. Not that they've a bad scrum or lineout but on a given day you can never know.

I'll be satisfied with a good performance, for 60 min at least.


USA vs Maori is on Either sport now for anyone interested.

It'll be close for 60 but the ABs will win by 30

That's better. Those are the predictions I like.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Golden wrote:With Murphy (another jumper) and Kearney in I can only imagine we'll be kicking to touch at every opportunity. That's the only sense I can seen in either of those selections. Murphy was very good in SA but hasn't had the best season with Leinster and is comfortably behind VDF. He does give us 4 decent options in the line out. With NZ's slightly weaker then normal second row its the set piece we will be targeting.

Really worried about this game. Kearney will surely be exposed again, his tackling is incredibly poor and his attacking game is effectively non existent (hopefully he proves me wrong and has a stormer). Is Marshall fit? I had presumed he was injured as he looked very good with Henshaw in SA.

That is some forwards impact on our bench however, hopefully Schmidt uses them with enough time to make a difference.

Yep.

Not so sure about that. Ulster have been hiding him in defence on the wing and he seems to be a bit more reticent when tackling.
Chicago would have been the perfect game to start Ringrose, and a Sexton(Carbs)/Henshaw/Rosie midfield at least would be very familiar with each other.

Is this on Sky Sports this evening?

Maori All Blacks 54...USA 7. (Halftime 0 - 28)

Tries;
USA...Clever.

Maoris:
J.Lowe 2,A. Ioanne 2, Ash Dixon, K.Hames, B. Weber, Joe Royal.

mikey_dragon wrote:Is this on Sky Sports this evening?

BT sport

BamBam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Is this on Sky Sports this evening?

BT sport

It's against of the rules of this forum to share illegal streams... so if anyone knows of any please PM me so I can report them to the appropriate authorities.

Notch wrote:

BamBam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Is this on Sky Sports this evening?

BT sport

It's against of the rules of this forum to share illegal streams... so if anyone knows of any please PM me so I can report them to the appropriate authorities.

I am really not happy with this team. Payne should have been playing in his best position at 15 and I would have also given Ringrose a start. Kearney, once an outstanding player, is just not good enough anymore. Zebo (as much I dislike it) is a better 15 right now as well.

Are Ireland ever on BT sport or is this a first?

Not sure mikey but it makes it difficult to watch, just hoping my wee internet box has it somewhere.

The closer it gets to ko the more I fear a total spanking is coming our way. I may have to watch through gin soaked eyes

Ireland by 10. Narrow field ABs b(ish) team. No worries

Oops I forgot about Rob Ks tackling. But we will still win

Gonna be a long evening if thats our midfield defence... first All Blacks possession and we got sliced up

If thats in NH club rugby, I think that is probably a red card.

Don't think so. Fell on his back barely above the horizontal. We will still win.