Ireland v Australia, 26 November

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IRELAND v AUSTRALIA
26 November 2016
KO: 17:30
Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Live on [tbc]

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant Referees: JP Doyle (England), Craig Maxwell-Keys (England)
TMO: Eric Gauzins (France)

A. Head to Head

32 Played 32
10 Won 21
1 Drawn 1
21 Lost 10
453 Points 657

B. Recent Form

22 November 2014
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
26 – 23 to Ireland

16 November 2013
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
15 – 32 to Australia

17 September 2011
Eden Park, Auckland
15 – 6 to Ireland

26 June 2010
Suncorp Stadium, Brisbane
22 – 15 to Australia

15 November 2009
Croke Park, Dublin
20 – 20 draw

14 June 2008
Colonial Stadium, Melbourne
18 – 12 to Australia

19 November 2006
Lansdowne Road, Dublin
21 – 6 to Ireland

C. Teams

IRELAND

Kearney; Trimble, Payne, Ringrose, Earls; Jackson, Murray; McGrath, Best, Furlong; Henderson, Toner; Stander, O'Brien, Heaslip.

Replacements: Cronin, Healy, Bealham, Dillane, Van der Flier, Marmion, Carbery, Zebo.

AUSTRALIA

Folau, Haylett-Petty, Kuridrani, Hodge, Speight, Foley, Genia; Sio, Moore (capt), Kepu; Arnold, Simmons; Mumm, Hooper, Pocock.

Replacements: Latu, Slipper, Alaalatoa, Douglas, Timani, McMahon, Phipps, Cooper, Naivalu (one to be omitted).

Mumm received no ban. I have to say I was happy it wasn;t red for the good of the game at the time, but I am flumoxed by the citing commissioners on this one. I am not sure how that is not an intentionally dangerous clearout, where a player is standing on his feet and suddenly is landing on his neck with feet in the air. If that is a yellow at most, we are going to see someone with a broken neck one of these days.

SecretFly wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Where is PhilBB now that you mention him?

Have the Illuminati taken him into care now that Trump is gunning for people that want to destroy the Pro12?

Trump is very pro Pro12.

He's hiding on Twitter.

Had a chat with Chunky, over on PL. Still mad as a box of frogs o0

LD has vanished completely, or travelling on a false passport. I like LD though. Hope all is ok.

Yeah, LD is grand.  I hope he's okay and just taking a well earned break from here.  He's a bit like Wales's version of Sin e.

I don't even mind the other two, to be honest.  Wouldn't have a blessed thing I'd ever agree with them on but, still, at least they often provided some colour

I don't mind any of them really. I do think the obsession with an imagined Irish rugby conspiracy is peculiar, but can be entertaining

wolfball wrote:Mumm received no ban. I have to say I was happy it wasn;t red for the good of the game at the time, but I am flumoxed by the citing commissioners on this one. I am not sure how that is not an intentionally dangerous clearout, where a player is standing on his feet and suddenly is landing on his neck with feet in the air. If that is a yellow at most, we are going to see someone with a broken neck one of these days.

The citing panels are not consistent. Stuart McCloskey received a four week suspension for something very similar by an all Welsh panel: CitingPanel

wolfball wrote:Mumm received no ban. I have to say I was happy it wasn;t red for the good of the game at the time, but I am flumoxed by the citing commissioners on this one. I am not sure how that is not an intentionally dangerous clearout, where a player is standing on his feet and suddenly is landing on his neck with feet in the air. If that is a yellow at most, we are going to see someone with a broken neck one of these days.

I've given up trying to make sense of how they decide on these things because they stopped making sense long ago, given the mess they made of Marlers ban in the 6Ns and World Rugby say that procedures weren't followed Im starting to think they never are and its just at the whim of who shows up that day to decide

wolfball wrote:Mumm received no ban. I have to say I was happy it wasn;t red for the good of the game at the time, but I am flumoxed by the citing commissioners on this one. I am not sure how that is not an intentionally dangerous clearout, where a player is standing on his feet and suddenly is landing on his neck with feet in the air. If that is a yellow at most, we are going to see someone with a broken neck one of these days.

Why didnt Bernard Foley get cited for his tackle on Toner? That looked bad from where I was.

wolfball wrote:Mumm received no ban. I have to say I was happy it wasn;t red for the good of the game at the time, but I am flumoxed by the citing commissioners on this one. I am not sure how that is not an intentionally dangerous clearout, where a player is standing on his feet and suddenly is landing on his neck with feet in the air. If that is a yellow at most, we are going to see someone with a broken neck one of these days.

These really dangerous looking ones seem to mostly happen when two players do the lifting. Now I'm not about to remotely suggest any player out there wants to seriously injure a fellow player; so you question how these things happen in a fast game where there is a feverish desire to win every ball and every physical contest to the degree that a ref and laws will allow you to.
In order to unbalance a player in a clear-out - we've all seen it in operation when done legitimately - defenders often go for a single leg to raise it, destabilise the opponent then push him over. I think the problem is in the communication and intensity levels - two players on either side of a player have the same intension, think they are the only one lifting a leg but before you know it, it becomes visually a 'tag team spear'. I'm not sure how any laws or rules can cut down those moments. You can hardly say to clearing out players that they now shouldn't touch a leg at all.

SecretFly wrote:Where is PhilBB now that you mention him?

Have the Illuminati taken him into care now that Trump is gunning for people that want to destroy the Pro12?

Trump is very pro Pro12.

marty2086 wrote:
Don't keep mentioning he who shall not be named, he's like Beetlejuice, 3 mentions and he pops up

Lol. He is like a predator. Some predators wait until nightfall, Philbb waits patiently, scanning the world wide web for Irish injustices and when one comes along, he pounces!

Earls would gave done better keeping his mouth shut.

Maybe he is having a bad week - been told that he was told before the Australia game that he wasn't playing well enough to be a regular in the Ireland starting XV

geoff999rugby wrote:Earls would gave done better keeping his mouth shut.

Well maybe he has a point when you see how various others have gotten away with much worse tackles lately.

Maybe he is having a bad week - been told that he was told before the Australia game that he wasn't playing well enough to be a regular in the Ireland starting XV

That should work out for him & Munster nicely as he is just 3 months into a 36 month central contract

I'd be interested to know who Schmidt thinks is good enough to be a regular on either wings or centre.

I'm sure this will be of interest

https://www.606v2.com/t64610-6-nations-to-introduce-bonus-points-in-2017#3478015

I doubt anyone is a guaranteed winger for Ireland but Zebo and Trimble appear to be poll position.

As for central contracts they seem to more reward for past services than keeping young talent in Ireland.

By my calculations 5, at least, are not first choices.

geoff999rugby wrote:I doubt anyone is a guaranteed winger for Ireland but Zebo and Trimble appear to be poll position.

As for central contracts they seem to more reward for past services than keeping young talent in Ireland.

By my calculations 5, at least, are not first choices.

Zebo is earmarked as a fullback. Of his last 12 games for Ireland, he has only started 2 on the wing. He is also Munster's starting fullback since Felix Jones has retired.

As for Earls - since the start of the World Cup he has started 13 out of a possible 16 (rested for 2nd game v. SA, suspended v. ABs in Chicago and injured (dead leg) for ABs in Dublin.

In the same timeframe - Trimble has started 11 out of a possible 16.

I admire Andrew Trimble for the late surge in his international career, but at 32 he is getting on a bit for a winger, apart from which he only seems to cover wing these days.

Earls has been playing well for both Munster and Ireland, so I just think whoever you were talking to hasn't a clue. Schmidt is highly unlikely to tell a player that he won't be a regular for Ireland in the week before he starts him on the wing for Ireland (with Zebo on the bench!). I'm sure Schmidt will give him workons though.

Yeah, Geoff - who told you that Earls was told he wasn't good enough before the Australian game? That's a pretty pointed comment to drop into the public arena.

So someone else is in the room when Joe is telling Earls how good/or not good he is?  Joe is that sloppy in talking privately with a player about his merits or otherwise?  And then that 'someone else in the room' basterde - whoever he might be - (trusted to keep things private) goes singing to friends of friends and it eventually gets to you?

Didn't say he was told he wasn't good enough I said he was told he wasn't playing well enough (specifically he needs to up his game in certain areas)
You really need to read what was posted not what you think was posted.
At no time did I claim Schmidt say Earls wasn't good enough.

Zebo was on the bench because he, like Payne, wasn't 100% but with Henshaw, Olding, Sexton all missing we were short.
I don't think Kearney was 100% either

As to FB O'Halloran is coming through and Payne has also played there (and remains a better 15 than a 13 as any Ulster fan will tell you)
With Ringrose coming to the fore I can see  Payne being first choice 15 rather than Zebo.

geoff999rugby wrote: Didn't say he was told he wasn't good enough I said he was told he wasn't playing well enough (specifically he needs to up his game in certain areas)
You really need to read what was posted not what you think was posted.
At no time did I claim Schmidt say Earls wasn't good enough.

I still ask what chickenschidt told a pal that, who then told someone else etc for however many moves down the line until it got to you? Who is the rat in camp, Geoff?

It was probably in the same vein as telling Kearney right before Chicago that he needed to have a good game.

You all got your spies in the ring.

geoff999rugby wrote:Didn't say he was told he wasn't good enough I said he was told he wasn't playing well enough (specifically he needs to up his game in certain areas)

You tell it like he was being dropped for Ireland. It would be interesting to know what Luke Marshall was told about his future with Ireland.

You really need to read what was posted not what you think was posted.
At no time did I claim Schmidt say Earls wasn't good enough.

So he is good enough. Just has a few things to work on.

Zebo was on the bench because he, like Payne, wasn't 100% but with Henshaw, Olding, Sexton all missing we were short.
I don't think Kearney was 100% either

Do any of those play on the wing, other than Zebo? (who only covers left wing and fullback).

As to FB O'Halloran is coming through and Payne has also played there (and remains a better 15 than a 13 as any Ulster fan will tell you)
With Ringrose coming to the fore I can see  Payne being first choice 15 rather than Zebo.

I don't think O'Halloran is rated by Joe. Joe has been working a long time converting Zebo to fullback - he is highly unlikely to drop him now. I don't think Payne has an international future at fullback at his age.

Sin é wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Didn't say he was told he wasn't good enough I said he was told he wasn't playing well enough (specifically he needs to up his game in certain areas)

You tell it like he was being dropped for Ireland. It would be interesting to know what Luke Marshall was told about his future with Ireland.

I tell it as I understand it in that Trimble and Zebo were considered first choice wingers going into the autumn internationals and part of the rational was a belief Earls need to make improvements.
I am sure something was said to Marshall after the Canada game
As I have posted elsewhere McCloskey seems to be persona non gratis now inspite of most fans thinking he did ok in the 6N.

Sin é wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:You really need to read what was posted not what you think was posted.
At no time did I claim Schmidt say Earls wasn't good enough.

So he is good enough. Just has a few things to work on.

I never said any different

Sin é wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote: Zebo was on the bench because he, like Payne, wasn't 100% but with Henshaw, Olding, Sexton all missing we were short.
I don't think Kearney was 100% either

Do any of those play on the wing, other than Zebo? (who only covers left wing and fullback).

Irrelevant to the point being made which was we were desperately short of backs with the consequence we played a semi fit 13, a semi fit back three cover player and possibly a semi fit 15
If Zebo had of been fit it is my belief he and Earls would have swapped.

Sin é wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote: As to FB O'Halloran is coming through and Payne has also played there (and remains a better 15 than a 13 as any Ulster fan will tell you)
With Ringrose coming to the fore I can see  Payne being first choice 15 rather than Zebo.

I don't think O'Halloran is rated by Joe. Joe has been working a long time converting Zebo to fullback - he is highly unlikely to drop him now. I don't think Payne has an international future at fullback at his age.

O'Halloran has only played in 3 games it would be unfair to dismiss so quickly.
Payne has, probably, played more of his rugby at 15 than 13 and as Ulster fans know he is a better 15.
He currently plays 13 for Ireland because he is the lynchpin in the defence - maybe Henshaw and Ringrose will give Schmidt a different option going forward.
Zebo has played 15 because Kearney reliability in terms of both injury and performance has nosed dived in the last couple of years (did a bit better this autumn though) and Payne has been needed elsewhere for the reasons given. Ringrose and TOH give Schmidt options he previously didn't have  

geoff999rugby wrote:
He currently plays 13 for Ireland because he is the lynchpin in the defence - maybe Henshaw and Ringrose will give Schmidt a different option going forward.

I think Schmidt's comments post Australia suggest that GR is still someway behind Henshaw and Payne in the pecking order. I thought he was superb but suspect he won't be in the 23 come the 6N if all are fit.

Agree Trimble and Zebo looked nailed on and can see DK and Bowe coming back in - not sure why with Rob K getting on Joe isn't investing more time on O'Hallaran but obviously Schmidt sees things he isn't happy with. at this stage to have him in the core squad.

Bearing in mind the number of injuries coming into the Australian game, if Schmidt rated O'Halloran, he would be involved.

It doesn't matter where Payne has played his rugby, the fact is now that he is 32 (I think), and won't have too many more years on the clock as an international back. He probably would get a bit longer if he stayed at centre.

Ringrose & Henshaw will give an option, but chances are one or other will be injured for a couple of games each season and with the high injury rate of Olding & Marshall, I can see them being left out more frequently than Payne or Earls.

Kearney never gets dropped, despite performance and being a non-tackling fullback. Earls has been playing well - apart from tackling like a demon v. Australia he provided Henderson for his try and scored one himself. What more can you ask for?

The one area that Earls could improve on is chasing kicks - though any kicking last Saturday was risky with the quality of those Australian attack.

Yeah, Rob Kearney is getting long in the tooth - but still 2 years shorter in the tooth than Trimble and Bowe.

All young stallions eventually turn into old donkeys. Time for a brutal overhaul.  Drop the foals in and let them at it during the 6N.  Let's see what our younger boys in the back can really do when playing with each other and aided by our f**king worked-to-death super forward heros.
I'd like more of a youth selection in totality at the back than this idea of dropping one in now and again.  Drop three or four of them in during some games in the 6N.  Let's see how they play together as distinct from how they play with a bunch of older farts holding them back

rodders wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
He currently plays 13 for Ireland because he is the lynchpin in the defence - maybe Henshaw and Ringrose will give Schmidt a different option going forward.

I think Schmidt's comments post Australia suggest that GR is still someway behind Henshaw and Payne in the pecking order. I thought he was superb but suspect he won't be in the 23 come the 6N if all are fit.

Agree Trimble and Zebo looked nailed on and can see DK and Bowe coming back in - not sure why with Rob K getting on Joe isn't investing more time on O'Hallaran but obviously Schmidt sees things he isn't happy with. at this stage to have him in the core squad.

I agree about Ringrose - he won't be overloaded. Bundee Aki will be eligible as well next season.
Whatever about DK being involved - is Bowe not finished as an international wing?

The No. 1 & No. 2s I see for the forseeable future: (in the backs)

9: Murray, Marmion
10: Sexton, Jackson, Carberry
11. Earls, Zebo, Dave Kearney
12. Henshaw, Olding, Scannell* (I know Scannell hasn't played, but I think he would be a very useful as he can cover outhalf as well as having a great left boot. Joe players need to have a kicking game).
13. Payne, Ringrose, Bundee Aki
14. Trimble, Dave Kearney, Sweetnam* (Sweetnam is having a great season - a great footballer, great in the air and very, very quick - he burnt the Maori winger in a footrace.
15. Kearney, Zebo, O'Halloran

Sin é wrote:

9: Murray, Marmion
10: Sexton, Jackson, Carberry
11. Earls, Zebo, Dave Kearney
12. Henshaw, Olding, Scannell* (I know Scannell hasn't played, but I think he would be a very useful as he can cover outhalf as well as having a great left boot. Joe players need to have a kicking game).
13. Payne, Ringrose, Bundee Aki
14. Trimble, Dave Kearney, Sweetnam* (Sweetnam is having a great season - a great footballer, great in the air and very, very quick - he burnt the Maori winger in a footrace.
15. Kearney, Zebo, O'Halloran

So that's

9. Marmion
10. Carberry
11. Zebo
12. Henshaw
13. Ringrose
14. Niyi or Byrne
15. O'Halloran.

Yeah, that's my thoughts too on the 6N, sin

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

9: Murray, Marmion
10: Sexton, Jackson, Carberry
11. Earls, Zebo, Dave Kearney
12. Henshaw, Olding, Scannell* (I know Scannell hasn't played, but I think he would be a very useful as he can cover outhalf as well as having a great left boot. Joe players need to have a kicking game).
13. Payne, Ringrose, Bundee Aki
14. Trimble, Dave Kearney, Sweetnam* (Sweetnam is having a great season - a great footballer, great in the air and very, very quick - he burnt the Maori winger in a footrace.
15. Kearney, Zebo, O'Halloran

So that's

9. Marmion
10. Carberry
11. Zebo
12. Henshaw
13. Ringrose
14. Niyi or Byrne
15. O'Halloran.

Yeah, that's my thoughts too on the 6N, sin

Hell will freeze over before that happens

Pity, sin...it'd be a lethal show if it got some footing. But let the slog craft over-the-hill stuff continue. We might even beat England by a point this year!

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

9: Murray, Marmion
10: Sexton, Jackson, Carberry
11. Earls, Zebo, Dave Kearney
12. Henshaw, Olding, Scannell* (I know Scannell hasn't played, but I think he would be a very useful as he can cover outhalf as well as having a great left boot. Joe players need to have a kicking game).
13. Payne, Ringrose, Bundee Aki
14. Trimble, Dave Kearney, Sweetnam* (Sweetnam is having a great season - a great footballer, great in the air and very, very quick - he burnt the Maori winger in a footrace.
15. Kearney, Zebo, O'Halloran

So that's

9. Marmion
10. Carberry
11. Zebo
12. Henshaw
13. Ringrose
14. Niyi or Byrne
15. O'Halloran.

Yeah, that's my thoughts too on the 6N, sin

Hell will freeze over before that happens

Sin, you think Joe has Sweetnam ahead of Niyi in the pecking order? Niyi, healy and zebo are our fastest back three players from what I have seen (with niyi well ahead of healy defensively) and I don't know why you have included DK at all who wasn't in the most recent squads?Also if scannel ever starts at 12 for ireland I will be absolutely shocked, though of course delighted for him.

wolfball wrote:

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

9: Murray, Marmion
10: Sexton, Jackson, Carberry
11. Earls, Zebo, Dave Kearney
12. Henshaw, Olding, Scannell* (I know Scannell hasn't played, but I think he would be a very useful as he can cover outhalf as well as having a great left boot. Joe players need to have a kicking game).
13. Payne, Ringrose, Bundee Aki
14. Trimble, Dave Kearney, Sweetnam* (Sweetnam is having a great season - a great footballer, great in the air and very, very quick - he burnt the Maori winger in a footrace.
15. Kearney, Zebo, O'Halloran

So that's

9. Marmion
10. Carberry
11. Zebo
12. Henshaw
13. Ringrose
14. Niyi or Byrne
15. O'Halloran.

Yeah, that's my thoughts too on the 6N, sin

Hell will freeze over before that happens

Sin, you think Joe has Sweetnam ahead of Niyi in the pecking order? Niyi, healy and zebo are our fastest back three players from what I have seen (with niyi well ahead of healy defensively) and I don't know why you have included DK at all who wasn't in the most recent squads?Also if scannel ever starts at 12 for ireland I will be absolutely shocked, though of course delighted for him.

Sweetnam is a real Joe type of winger - great in the air, very skillful, fast and hard as nails. He is also a big game player. He is also about 3 or 4 years younger than Niya and Healy. Sweetnam is 23 and had a delayed start to his rugby career as he was playing senior hurling for Cork at 17 while also representing Ireland at underage hockey.

Joe loves the Kearneys.

Scannell - is a more robust version of Olding with a very handy left boot. I think he would take some of the pressure off Jackson as a 2nd playmaker. He has 9 underage caps and he has played for Emerging Ireland, so he is in the frame. He was 24th man last weekend.

I think Olding & Marshall are too injury prone to be relied on.

Sin é wrote:

wolfball wrote:

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

9: Murray, Marmion
10: Sexton, Jackson, Carberry
11. Earls, Zebo, Dave Kearney
12. Henshaw, Olding, Scannell* (I know Scannell hasn't played, but I think he would be a very useful as he can cover outhalf as well as having a great left boot. Joe players need to have a kicking game).
13. Payne, Ringrose, Bundee Aki
14. Trimble, Dave Kearney, Sweetnam* (Sweetnam is having a great season - a great footballer, great in the air and very, very quick - he burnt the Maori winger in a footrace.
15. Kearney, Zebo, O'Halloran

So that's

9. Marmion
10. Carberry
11. Zebo
12. Henshaw
13. Ringrose
14. Niyi or Byrne
15. O'Halloran.

Yeah, that's my thoughts too on the 6N, sin

Hell will freeze over before that happens

Sin, you think Joe has Sweetnam ahead of Niyi in the pecking order? Niyi, healy and zebo are our fastest back three players from what I have seen (with niyi well ahead of healy defensively) and I don't know why you have included DK at all who wasn't in the most recent squads?Also if scannel ever starts at 12 for ireland I will be absolutely shocked, though of course delighted for him.

Sweetnam is a real Joe type of winger - great in the air, very skillful, fast and hard as nails. He is also a big game player. He is also about 3 or 4 years younger than Niya and Healy. Sweetnam is 23 and had a delayed start to his rugby career as he was playing senior hurling for Cork at 17 while also representing Ireland at underage hockey.

Joe loves the Kearneys.

Scannell - is a more robust version of Olding with a very handy left boot. I think he would take some of the pressure off Jackson as a 2nd playmaker. He has 9 underage caps and he has played for Emerging Ireland, so he is in the frame. He was 24th man last weekend.

I think Olding & Marshall are too injury prone to be relied on.

Sweetnam is a big game player? Excuse my ignorance, besides the Maori game what big game (semi final/final/must win euro away game etc) has he ever played in? I also think playing other sports is a massive tick against players as it takes longer for certain rugby specific skills to develop. He is not near Niyi/Healy or Gilroy in my view, though you are right, his few years age advantage mean he may develop enough (forget those games with sticks enough!) to be in the reckoning for the RWC.

You define a real Joe winger as "great in the air, very skillful, fast and hard as nails". I agree completely, just that seems strange coming from you given your previous statements on Joe hating skillful players.

Joe loves Rob. Dave hasn't had a shot in quite a while.

Scannell was 24th man after a raft of injuries at centre. Last week may well have been his best shot at playing for ireland. I honestly think he isn't near marshall/olding let alone Henshaw. I also think Ronaldson is a better player then him, though Joe def doesnt agree with me on that (yet). Marshall and Olding have had injuries, but I think its a bit soon to write off their international careers quite yet...

wolfball wrote:

Sin é wrote:

wolfball wrote:

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

9: Murray, Marmion
10: Sexton, Jackson, Carberry
11. Earls, Zebo, Dave Kearney
12. Henshaw, Olding, Scannell* (I know Scannell hasn't played, but I think he would be a very useful as he can cover outhalf as well as having a great left boot. Joe players need to have a kicking game).
13. Payne, Ringrose, Bundee Aki
14. Trimble, Dave Kearney, Sweetnam* (Sweetnam is having a great season - a great footballer, great in the air and very, very quick - he burnt the Maori winger in a footrace.
15. Kearney, Zebo, O'Halloran

So that's

9. Marmion
10. Carberry
11. Zebo
12. Henshaw
13. Ringrose
14. Niyi or Byrne
15. O'Halloran.

Yeah, that's my thoughts too on the 6N, sin

Hell will freeze over before that happens

Sin, you think Joe has Sweetnam ahead of Niyi in the pecking order? Niyi, healy and zebo are our fastest back three players from what I have seen (with niyi well ahead of healy defensively) and I don't know why you have included DK at all who wasn't in the most recent squads?Also if scannel ever starts at 12 for ireland I will be absolutely shocked, though of course delighted for him.

Sweetnam is a real Joe type of winger - great in the air, very skillful, fast and hard as nails. He is also a big game player. He is also about 3 or 4 years younger than Niya and Healy. Sweetnam is 23 and had a delayed start to his rugby career as he was playing senior hurling for Cork at 17 while also representing Ireland at underage hockey.

Joe loves the Kearneys.

Scannell - is a more robust version of Olding with a very handy left boot. I think he would take some of the pressure off Jackson as a 2nd playmaker. He has 9 underage caps and he has played for Emerging Ireland, so he is in the frame. He was 24th man last weekend.

I think Olding & Marshall are too injury prone to be relied on.

Sweetnam is a big game player? Excuse my ignorance, besides the Maori game what big game (semi final/final/must win euro away game etc) has he ever played in? I also think playing other sports is a massive tick against players as it takes longer for certain rugby specific skills to develop. He is not near Niyi/Healy or Gilroy in my view, though you are right, his few years age advantage mean he may develop enough (forget those games with sticks enough!) to be in the reckoning for the RWC.

You define a real Joe winger as "great in the air, very skillful, fast and hard as nails". I agree completely, just that seems strange coming from you given your previous statements on Joe hating skillful players.

Joe loves Rob. Dave hasn't had a shot in quite a while.

Scannell was 24th man after a raft of injuries at centre. Last week may well have been his best shot at playing for ireland. I honestly think he isn't near marshall/olding let alone Henshaw. I also think Ronaldson is a better player then him, though Joe def doesnt agree with me on that (yet). Marshall and Olding have had injuries, but I think its a bit soon to write off their international careers quite yet...

He was playing hurling for Cork as a 17 year old (which is very unusual to do so at that age). As far as I can recall, he played against Kilkenny in a League Final and they got to semi finals in Championship. By the way, I don't think I said Joe hated skilful players - he just doesn't like to play conservatively and not take any chances.

Scannell will be 23 next month. He has 9 underage Ireland caps (same U20s team as Stuart Olding). Scannell was played at inside centre (and outhalf) and Olding at fullback. Sweetnam made that U20s team as well (despite his commitment to hurling). Ronaldson is 27 - he isn't going to make it internationally at this stage. While Henshaw will be first choice 12 (particularly outside Sexton), but he is not always going to be fit to play and back-up will be needed - especially a 2nd 5/8 type player who can kick as well.

Sweetnam was playing all sports up to about 18 - just concentrated on rugby after that. Mind you I disagree with you about only playing one sport being better than playing several - there are plenty of players who have benefitted from it.

wolfball wrote:
Sweetnam is a big game player? Excuse my ignorance, besides the Maori game what big game (semi final/final/must win euro away game etc) has he ever played in? I also think playing other sports is a massive tick against players as it takes longer for certain rugby specific skills to develop. He is not near Niyi/Healy or Gilroy in my view, though you are right, his few years age advantage mean he may develop enough (forget those games with sticks enough!) to be in the reckoning for the RWC.

You define a real Joe winger as "great in the air, very skillful, fast and hard as nails". I agree completely, just that seems strange coming from you given your previous statements on Joe hating skillful players.

Joe loves Rob. Dave hasn't had a shot in quite a while.

Scannell was 24th man after a raft of injuries at centre. Last week may well have been his best shot at playing for ireland. I honestly think he isn't near marshall/olding let alone Henshaw. I also think Ronaldson is a better player then him, though Joe def doesnt agree with me on that (yet). Marshall and Olding have had injuries, but I think its a bit soon to write off their international careers quite yet...

You think Sweetnam isn't near Niyi, Gilroy or Healy? He's the best all rounder out of those. Great in the air, fast, bigger than average, has vision, can offload and is a good kicker. He is getting a run of games now for Munster which will bring him on because he was a little raw having not played as much rugby as others.


While we're on the subject of wingers, Tommy Bowe has to be in the mix also if he gets back to anywhere near his best.


Scannell has played better than Olding and Marshall this season. He is kicking superbly from hand lately. While he might not have Oldings flair, he always makes ground for Munster by running good lines, he is an intelligent player and is a very solid defender. He is most similar to Luke Marshall but I think Marshall might have damaged his chances after failing to perform against Canada which isn't great especially when you take into account his injury record.


Let's see how those players get on. They're 3 good players plus McCloskey is in the mix. Great options for Schmidt. Any of those players would have been first choice a few years ago. And yes, I'm a fan of Ronaldson as well and wouldn't rule him out of getting capped sometime. He does seem a little injury prone though.

profitius wrote:

While we're on the subject of wingers, Tommy Bowe has to be in the mix also if he gets back to anywhere near his best.

He'd have to backtrack a good few years to get to anywhere near his best. Might give us more punch through the middle but, God, we're in trouble if we have to keep chasing back into our past catalogue to avoid picking the rookies.

SecretFly wrote:

profitius wrote:

While we're on the subject of wingers, Tommy Bowe has to be in the mix also if he gets back to anywhere near his best.

He'd have to backtrack a good few years to get to anywhere near his best.   Might give us more punch through the middle but, God, we're in trouble if we have to keep chasing back into our past catalogue to avoid picking the rookies.

We could go for the hat-trick and play Bowe along with Trimble and Kearney.

profitius wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

profitius wrote:

While we're on the subject of wingers, Tommy Bowe has to be in the mix also if he gets back to anywhere near his best.

He'd have to backtrack a good few years to get to anywhere near his best.   Might give us more punch through the middle but, God, we're in trouble if we have to keep chasing back into our past catalogue to avoid picking the rookies.

We could go for the hat-trick and play Bowe along with Trimble and Kearney.

Yeah, the blue rinse musketeers ...and I'm not saying that combo wouldn't still win more than they'd lose but come on folks, I'm one of the older guys here and I'm saying lets get the brakes off the future!
Let's not be afraid to think we could improve on the present big time if we threw age old Irish caution into the bin. As I keep saying, just a relatively small increase in our attacking penetrating power (please God let it be more consistent at the 6N!) - add that to our forward heroic stuff in attack, defence and breakdown intensity - and we would genuinely then look extremely potent as a side. Let's not be afraid to be much better rather than simply incrementally better.

Sin é wrote:

wolfball wrote:
Sweetnam is a big game player? Excuse my ignorance, besides the Maori game what big game (semi final/final/must win euro away game etc) has he ever played in? I also think playing other sports is a massive tick against players as it takes longer for certain rugby specific skills to develop. He is not near Niyi/Healy or Gilroy in my view, though you are right, his few years age advantage mean he may develop enough (forget those games with sticks enough!) to be in the reckoning for the RWC.

You define a real Joe winger as "great in the air, very skillful, fast and hard as nails". I agree completely, just that seems strange coming from you given your previous statements on Joe hating skillful players.

Joe loves Rob. Dave hasn't had a shot in quite a while.

Scannell was 24th man after a raft of injuries at centre. Last week may well have been his best shot at playing for ireland. I honestly think he isn't near marshall/olding let alone Henshaw. I also think Ronaldson is a better player then him, though Joe def doesnt agree with me on that (yet). Marshall and Olding have had injuries, but I think its a bit soon to write off their international careers quite yet...

He was playing hurling for Cork as a 17 year old (which is very unusual to do so at that age). As far as I can recall, he played against Kilkenny in a League Final and they got to semi finals in Championship. By the way, I don't think I said Joe hated skilful players - he just doesn't like to play conservatively and not take any chances.

Scannell will be 23 next month. He has 9 underage Ireland caps (same U20s team as Stuart Olding). Scannell was played at inside centre (and outhalf) and Olding at fullback. Sweetnam made that U20s team as well (despite his commitment to hurling). Ronaldson is 27 - he isn't going to make it internationally at this stage. While Henshaw will be first choice 12 (particularly outside Sexton), but he is not always going to be fit to play and back-up will be needed - especially a 2nd 5/8 type player who can kick as well.

Sweetnam was playing all sports up to about 18 - just concentrated on rugby after that. Mind you I disagree with you about only playing one sport being better than playing several - there are plenty of players who have benefitted from it.

Ah, so Sweetnam doesn't have big game experience in rugby. Cheers for clarifying. On multiple sports, sure lots of players play under age up to 15/16, but everything I have read and been told by pro coaches indicates that in professional sport few skill sets are transferable between sports and the earlier the specilisation the greater the player optimizes their genetic ability. I love the old amateur days where someone could be a top class player across multiple sports but those days are well gone, and bringing up someone playing Hurling up to 18 is a red light for coaches (I knew a coach in the connacht setup who would love getting his hands on gaa players - but only if they were under 16 at oldest. Otherwise it was too much to get them into certain skillsets).

My bad on forgetting McCloskey; yeah Scannell (who believe me I thnk is a great euro cup level player!)
in my view will be lucky to get any full irish cap. Olding+Marshall can both play 2 5/8 style to an international level. McCloskey is the hard running offloader and Henshaw has a mix of both skillsets. Scannel will struggle. If he'd come along a couple of years earlier he might have had a proper shot to stake a claim. Regardless, it is great Munster are developing a few backs, and I hope they come right, I just don't see them close the the required standard (zebo/murray/earls of course excluded). I think munster will win the league this year, and then those lads can get a few big games under their belts and we will see what they are made of

[quote="wolfball"]

Sin é wrote:

wolfball wrote:
Sweetnam is a big game player? Excuse my ignorance, besides the Maori game what big game (semi final/final/must win euro away game etc) has he ever played in? I also think playing other sports is a massive tick against players as it takes longer for certain rugby specific skills to develop. He is not near Niyi/Healy or Gilroy in my view, though you are right, his few years age advantage mean he may develop enough (forget those games with sticks enough!) to be in the reckoning for the RWC.

You define a real Joe winger as "great in the air, very skillful, fast and hard as nails". I agree completely, just that seems strange coming from you given your previous statements on Joe hating skillful players.

Joe loves Rob. Dave hasn't had a shot in quite a while.

Scannell was 24th man after a raft of injuries at centre. Last week may well have been his best shot at playing for ireland. I honestly think he isn't near marshall/olding let alone Henshaw. I also think Ronaldson is a better player then him, though Joe def doesnt agree with me on that (yet). Marshall and Olding have had injuries, but I think its a bit soon to write off their international careers quite yet...

He was playing hurling for Cork as a 17 year old (which is very unusual to do so at that age). As far as I can recall, he played against Kilkenny in a League Final and they got to semi finals in Championship. By the way, I don't think I said Joe hated skilful players - he just doesn't like to play conservatively and not take any chances.

Scannell will be 23 next month. He has 9 underage Ireland caps (same U20s team as Stuart Olding). Scannell was played at inside centre (and outhalf) and Olding at fullback. Sweetnam made that U20s team as well (despite his commitment to hurling). Ronaldson is 27 - he isn't going to make it internationally at this stage. While Henshaw will be first choice 12 (particularly outside Sexton), but he is not always going to be fit to play and back-up will be needed - especially a 2nd 5/8 type player who can kick as well.

Sweetnam was playing all sports up to about 18 - just concentrated on rugby after that. Mind you I disagree with you about only playing one sport being better than playing several - there are plenty of players who have benefitted from it.

Ah, so Sweetnam doesn't have big game experience in rugby. Cheers for clarifying.

Interview with him in Examiner today - he played in an All-Ireland Semi final in front of 65,000. I don't care what sport that is, but he coped well at a very young age in front of a big crowd.

On multiple sports, sure lots of players play under age up to 15/16, but everything I have read and been told by pro coaches indicates that in professional sport few skill sets are transferable between sports and the earlier the specilisation the greater the player optimizes their genetic ability. I love the old amateur days where someone could be a top class player across multiple sports but those days are well gone, and bringing up someone playing Hurling up to 18 is a red light for coaches (I knew a coach in the connacht setup who would love getting his hands on gaa players - but only if they were under 16 at oldest. Otherwise it was too much to get them into certain skillsets).

Well, the Munster coaches say that they like players to have played multiple sports. It hasn't harmed Tommy Bowe, has it? How about Zinzan Brook?

Zinzan Brooks wrote:I unashamedly wallowed in the game, great for elevation skills, anticipation, kicking off either foot (a must), running, passing by hand or kick-passing. And the contact! The contact made the blood run whether you were taking it or giving it.

Just for the record, Sweetnam played rugby in school (as well as hockey as well as basketball I think). Even though he was still playing inter county hurling at 19, he made the Ireland rugby U20s team, so it doesn't seem to have held him back.

My bad on forgetting McCloskey; yeah Scannell (who believe me I thnk is a great euro cup level player!)
in my view will be lucky to get any full irish cap. Olding+Marshall can both play 2 5/8 style to an international level. McCloskey is the hard running offloader and Henshaw has a mix of both skillsets. Scannel will struggle. If he'd come along a couple of years earlier he might have had a proper shot to stake a claim. Regardless, it is great Munster are developing a few backs, and I hope they come right, I just don't see them close the the required standard (zebo/murray/earls of course excluded). I think munster will win the league this year, and then those lads can get a few big games under their belts and we will see what they are made of

Whatever about McCloskey, I think Olding & Marshall are too injury prone to have much of an international career.

Yea, its good Munster are producing a good few top quality backs at the moment.

I think it's good we can argue about a multitude of players for positions. Shows we are creating competition

Well Payne is out of the six nations so Ringrose should get his chance along side Henshaw Id say.

If the standard of evidence is naming a couple of players who played multiple sports and were professional rugby players then you have little evidence indeed.

My main point is that he would be an even greater player if he had stuck with rugby earlier. Having said that, there is no actual fact of the matter, you can say he got where he was because of multiple sports, and I can say he would be further along if he stuck with rugby, and there is no way of proving the counterfactual either way. I suppose the light frustration is, I am starting from the position of here is a good player, but right now is he good enough for ireland? And you seem to be starting from the position, here is a player I like, what in his (non-rugby related) past justifies my view of him as good enough for ireland? Because if I wanted to pick out random (I am making this one up as a silly example) facts about Olding (his love of chess gave him the focus needed to overcome injury issues) I imagine you would say, well lets look at his skills on the pitch, a rugby pitch, before we judge his ability. And that would make sense to me.

Anyways, its all grand, I know you fight hard for your players Sin, I like where this Munster team is going, and I wouldn't be surprised if Munster has a much higher % representation on this irish team sooner rather than later. Just doubt scannel's hurling ability will have anything to do with it.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Well Payne is out of the six nations so Ringrose should get his chance along side Henshaw Id say.

That's a real pity. I suppose it is better he is out now, then after 1 week into the 6 nations, because at least we can start restructuring our centre defense in the next training camp, but we will miss him and kidney issues sound terrible.

I didn't think Payne was definitely out if the 6ns

carpet baboon wrote:I didn't think Payne was definitely out if the 6ns

Kidney problem. Out for a few months which more or less means he will be out for the 6N.

wolfball wrote:If the standard of evidence is naming a couple of players who played multiple sports and were professional rugby players then you have little evidence indeed.

I'm not sure what evidence you are looking for, but my point is that plenty of people have said that playing multiple sports is beneficial including the coaching staff in Munster.

My main point is that he would be an even greater player if he had stuck with rugby earlier. Having said that, there is no actual fact of the matter, you can say he got where he was because of multiple sports, and I can say he would be further along if he stuck with rugby, and there is no way of proving the counterfactual either way. I suppose the light frustration is, I am starting from the position of here is a good player, but right now is he good enough for ireland? And you seem to be starting from the position, here is a player I like, what in his (non-rugby related) past justifies my view of him as good enough for ireland? Because if I wanted to pick out random (I am making this one up as a silly example) facts about Olding (his love of chess gave him the focus needed to overcome injury issues) I imagine you would say, well lets look at his skills on the pitch, a rugby pitch, before we judge his ability. And that would make sense to me.

My point about Sweetnam is that he is a super athlete and is already a very high achiever in two other sports, but it is some achievement to make a senior intercounty hurling team in a Tier 1 Hurling County at the age of 17. For instance, Joe Canning of Galway was 20 before he made the Galway County Team (and just for the record, Canning was playing rugby and it didn't seem to hold back his hurling). Performing at a very high level as a young player in front of 65K crowds is completely different to playing chess as a hobby in your sitting room. Certainly playing another sport to a high level has not held him back as he has 7 under 20s Ireland rugby caps as well.

Anyways, its all grand, I know you fight hard for your players Sin, I like where this Munster team is going, and I wouldn't be surprised if Munster has a much higher % representation on this irish team sooner rather than later. Just doubt scannel's hurling ability will have anything to do with it.

Sweetnam is the hurler. Scannell has been concentrating on rugby. I just don't get why you dismiss Scannell as he has a very good underage pedigree with 10 U20s Caps (9 at 12, 1 at 10), whereas Olding has only 6 (with 4 starts). McCloskey has no underage pedigree, yet you just dismiss Scannell!

I think that Scannell is very close to earning an Irish cap. He is the another one of those players that Schmidt likes and I do think his decision making has been better than either Olding or Marshall this season. He also has more consistent experience playing at 12 in a reasonably settled backline.

He could certainly move ahead of any of the Ulster centres if he remains fit and continues playing as he has been.

Sin é wrote:

wolfball wrote:If the standard of evidence is naming a couple of players who played multiple sports and were professional rugby players then you have little evidence indeed.

I'm not sure what evidence you are looking for, but my point is that plenty of people have said that playing multiple sports is beneficial including the coaching staff in Munster.

My main point is that he would be an even greater player if he had stuck with rugby earlier. Having said that, there is no actual fact of the matter, you can say he got where he was because of multiple sports, and I can say he would be further along if he stuck with rugby, and there is no way of proving the counterfactual either way. I suppose the light frustration is, I am starting from the position of here is a good player, but right now is he good enough for ireland? And you seem to be starting from the position, here is a player I like, what in his (non-rugby related) past justifies my view of him as good enough for ireland? Because if I wanted to pick out random (I am making this one up as a silly example) facts about Olding (his love of chess gave him the focus needed to overcome injury issues) I imagine you would say, well lets look at his skills on the pitch, a rugby pitch, before we judge his ability. And that would make sense to me.

My point about Sweetnam is that he is a super athlete and is already a very high achiever in two other sports, but it is some achievement to make a senior intercounty hurling team in a Tier 1 Hurling County at the age of 17. For instance, Joe Canning of Galway was 20 before he made the Galway County Team (and just for the record, Canning was playing rugby and it didn't seem to hold back his hurling). Performing at a very high level as a young player in front of 65K crowds is completely different to playing chess as a hobby in your sitting room. Certainly playing another sport to a high level has not held him back as he has 7 under 20s Ireland rugby caps as well.

Anyways, its all grand, I know you fight hard for your players Sin, I like where this Munster team is going, and I wouldn't be surprised if Munster has a much higher % representation on this irish team sooner rather than later. Just doubt scannel's hurling ability will have anything to do with it.

Sweetnam is the hurler. Scannell has been concentrating on rugby. I just don't get why you dismiss Scannell as he has a very good underage pedigree with 10 U20s Caps (9 at 12, 1 at 10), whereas Olding has only 6 (with 4 starts). McCloskey has no underage pedigree, yet you just dismiss Scannell!

You miss my points, but its grand, though apologies on the Scannell as a hurler typo. I didn't speak of anyone's underage pedigree because I rate it very little so maybe reread what I wrote. Provincial performance gives you a shot at Ireland not U20s caps. I don't dismiss Scannell. I say that based on the players in front of him, right now (not underage +4 years ago), of the players playing for their provinces, Scannell is 4th choice 12 at best (and probaly more like 5th is everyone was fit). That's not a bad place to be with current Irish depth! Just because I do not believe Scannell to be the second coming of Maggs (we would be so lucky ), does not mean I don't rate him. I'd love him to surpass the players I think are better than him as its better for Ireland, I just don't think he will.

No I haven't missed your point (that Sweetnam would have been a greater player he he just played one sport).

Alan Tynan (a young outhalf - about 18) is an interesting case. His father works for Leinster Rugby as a Dev. Officer/coach. Alan was the outhalf for Roscrea when they won their first Leinster Schools Cup 2 years ago. In the same year he played in both the hurling & gaelic football minor finals for Tipperary. He is now concentrating on rugby and is in the Munster sub academy and is the starting outhalf for Young Munster (who are going well).

My point is that his father, a rugby coach, had him playing not one other sport, but 2 and it doesn't seem to have held him back.

As for Scannell. He is performing well for Province - he was Munster's Young Player of the Year last year. Munster develop their players differently. Basically, they are left for a year or two playing AIL for a year or two and only feature for Munster A during that time. They don't really make the Senior team until they are about 22 unless there is an injury crisis. This seems to make the transition easier as they are battle hardened from playing competitive rugby every week in the AIL.

I think Rory is right that Scannell is a Schmidt type of player at 12 (Gordon D'Arcy type player) except that his left boot is also an added attraction.

The more boots the better! They damn near killed us last week but ...'Keeeeeeeeep Kicking!"

One thing that puts Scannell in a better position than any of the other options at 12 is that he is already (at age 22) a core member of the Munster team and has established himself as the starting inside centre. Certainly one of the first names on the team sheet. He is robust in contact, solid defensively, an extra kicking option and playmaker at 12 and he seems to be a very good decision maker. Schmidt clearly has his eye on him.

At Ulster the 12 shirt is swapped between McCloskey, Marshall, Olding and even Cave at times. The back line is completely unsettled and we all know of the injury problems that have haunted this lot. I believe their development has certainly been stifled. I used to be convinced the Irish shirt would belong to one of these guys but at this stage, who knows.

Connacht seem to rotate their players at 12 quite regularly as well. I guess that Ronaldson is the favoured option when fit? I like Ronaldson as I much prefer having a second playmaker at 12 but I don't think he has much of a chance for Ireland compared to his peers. He will be turning 27 after the new year.
 
At Leinster the only option from an international perspective is Henshaw. Reid is a good player but defensively weak and aged 26. I still believe that Henshaw is more effective in the wider channels but he has been very good at 12. His move to Leinster suggests he will be considered permanently at 12 - a mistake in my opinion, given the depth at 12 compared to 13.

In reality, the 12 shirt will belong to Henshaw, Olding or Scannell in the future.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
In reality, the 12 shirt will belong to Henshaw, Olding or Scannell in the future.

Not sure why Schmidt doesn't rate McCloskey higher, maybe he feels he forces the offload too much.

Henshaw is clearly the main man at 12, Olding just needs to remain fit...I'm not convinced he is durable enough for the 3/4's, he's carrying too much weight for his frame in my opinion.

rodders wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
In reality, the 12 shirt will belong to Henshaw, Olding or Scannell in the future.

Not sure why Schmidt doesn't rate McCloskey higher, maybe he feels he forces the offload too much.

Henshaw is clearly the main man at 12, Olding just needs to remain fit...I'm not convinced he is durable enough for the 3/4's, he's carrying too much weight for his frame in my opinion.

I think you're right regarding McCloskey. He has sometimes tried to force the offload too much and we know that is a real pet peeve of Schmidt's. I still think he is a better option than Henshaw for that sort of role. 

I remain hopeful that Henshaw will move out to the 13 channel in the future. Having two top class players battling for the 13 shirt rather than just one clear man for the future (Ringrose) is much healthier. The 12 shirt has enough players now and Henshaw was pushed there to cover for injuries in 2014. I don't see the need anymore but he is going to be playing there for Leinster, I suppose.

Unfortunately Olding has continuous injury problems, drama off the pitch as well as McCloskey/Marshall as his competition at Ulster. Scannell will be getting the most experience of the lot and he has just as much talent.