Brexit

First topic message reminder :

Funniest thing to happen in years. Have been following the craziness on the FT. Despite the implications if our current crop of retards manage to push it through I can't remember when I've read the news everyday without fail and learned something new. What does everyone think of the possibility that we stay in the single market, retain freedom of movement. Pay into the EU coffers and lose our vote ??

TopHat24/7 wrote:Rather than ex, would you prefer racist? Misandrist, perhaps??

I'm happy...If you're happy...

Stop marginilising people for a start,
Allow all the community's to have their say and instead of focusing on how to make one particular group happy, get representatives of all to have regular meetings that the constituency can attend and speak at. More important, advertise these more so more people know.

It baffles me that in this day and age of social media it seems difficult for Councils to get it together to use it in a decent way.

If there are problems within the community (especially at a racial level) get the groups together and more importantly explain certain things (I still remember the Oldham riots and it was allowed to fester for so long as noone would say a word about anything).

Encourage and create more multi-ethnic groups instead of trying to highlight all the differences, and most importantly make it all more inclusive of everyone.

How are you going to get communities that have no intention of engaging to have a say ??..

Get the groups together and say what ??

Change comes from within....There has to be motivation...Maybe some communities don't want to change...

1/3 of Southern Asians voted for Brexit..........They seem happy enough..

Your intentions are honorable you just have to make sure enough people share them.

As I said Truss, i can only speak from my own experience and we used to get on all well together with very little issues, the country has done a really good job of dividing us all up into our own communities and keeping us there.

You have to speak to the communities at first to find out what they want to engage about and then try and get all the different communities round a table. I'm not saying it's perfect and all will be involved but you have to try something.

(As an example, when we moved in, our little area was blighted with lil gits causing trouble, the overiding sense was, we're not doing anything because nothing will ever get done. We changed all that by going to the council, cops etc and whilst I won't say it's perfect, we got a lot done and a lot of doors opened by talking to otehrs to see what could be done)

Derbymanc wrote:As I said Truss, i can only speak from my own experience and we used to get on all well together with very little issues, the country has done a really good job of dividing us all up into our own communities and keeping us there.

You have to speak to the communities at first to find out what they want to engage about and then try and get all the different communities round a table. I'm not saying it's perfect and all will be involved but you have to try something.

(As an example, when we moved in, our little area was blighted with lil gits causing trouble, the overiding sense was, we're not doing anything because nothing will ever get done. We changed all that by going to the council, cops etc and whilst I won't say it's perfect, we got a lot done and a lot of doors opened by talking to otehrs to see what could be done)

Not everybody in a family shares the same ideals..............So how can you speak to Communities...

What I will say is when I was a kid we had gyms, Sport teams...Social clubs and other events that led to communicating with people you perhaps wouldn't normally associate with......

Kids mingle...Parents mingle watching kids....

Rather than setting up contrived meetings.......Maybe set up more positive activities where people from all races can get together informally.........

Slow process.

On this note, I find it quite shocking how, considering how culturally diverse the UK is, the population are barely integrated at all.

Living in Toronto now, I see a different side to it. The people here are so integrated and I've not noticed any racial, religious or cultural tension whatsoever.

Pr4wn wrote:On this note, I find it quite shocking how, considering how culturally diverse the UK is, the population are barely integrated at all.

Living in Toronto now, I see a different side to it. The people here are so integrated and I've not noticed any racial, religious or cultural tension whatsoever.

Have to factor in Canada is about five times as big with half the population of the UK....The population density will be hugely contrasting.........

But that is not to say they aren't a more welcoming Country......After all there must be something they are good at..

I can't speak for the rest of Canada, only Toronto, I suppose.

But it's a huge, densely-populated city. It's also the most diverse city in the world.

London is also very diverse but people aren't integrated there at all, in comparison. It's odd.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C6Wu0idWYAEs67y.jpg

Pr4wn wrote:On this note, I find it quite shocking how, considering how culturally diverse the UK is, the population are barely integrated at all.

Living in Toronto now, I see a different side to it. The people here are so integrated and I've not noticed any racial, religious or cultural tension whatsoever.

Get to Moss Park.

Absolute filth.

I also saw nothing as diverse or more integrated in Toronto than I do daily in London. That's Toronto as a very piddly city on the global scale, not 'huge' in the slightest.

Derbymanc wrote:
(As an example, when we moved in, our little area was blighted with lil gits causing trouble, the overiding sense was, we're not doing anything because nothing will ever get done. We changed all that by going to the council, cops etc and whilst I won't say it's perfect, we got a lot done and a lot of doors opened by talking to otehrs to see what could be done)

Ditto at the Finsbury Park development I bought at. Lots of scummy scroats at the start, background being it was previously as sink estate that got regenerated (half refurbished, half redeveloped). We set up residents groups, engaged with local community policing etc and it largely got sorted out.

TopHat24/7 wrote:I also saw nothing as diverse or more integrated in Toronto than I do daily in London. That's Toronto as a very piddly city on the global scale, not 'huge' in the slightest.

What a condescending thing to say. Having lived in both London and Toronto I can claim with some personal experience that Toronto is more diverse and there is far less tension than in London.

And that's Toronto as the fourth largest city in North America. Hardly "piddly".

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Derbymanc wrote:
(As an example, when we moved in, our little area was blighted with lil gits causing trouble, the overiding sense was, we're not doing anything because nothing will ever get done. We changed all that by going to the council, cops etc and whilst I won't say it's perfect, we got a lot done and a lot of doors opened by talking to otehrs to see what could be done)

Lots of scummy scroats at the start.

"Scummy Scroat"............You wonder why these kids never get a chance in life..

Very disappointed if any member of my family used words like that..

Toppy thinks that poor people should just "earn more money", I believe. They have themselves to blame for being poor.

Says it all, really.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Derbymanc wrote:
(As an example, when we moved in, our little area was blighted with lil gits causing trouble, the overiding sense was, we're not doing anything because nothing will ever get done. We changed all that by going to the council, cops etc and whilst I won't say it's perfect, we got a lot done and a lot of doors opened by talking to otehrs to see what could be done)

Lots of scummy scroats at the start.

"Scummy Scroat"............You wonder why these kids never get a chance in life..

Very disappointed if any member of my family used words like that..

You know that her dad is thinking it though?

ShahenshahG wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Derbymanc wrote:
(As an example, when we moved in, our little area was blighted with lil gits causing trouble, the overiding sense was, we're not doing anything because nothing will ever get done. We changed all that by going to the council, cops etc and whilst I won't say it's perfect, we got a lot done and a lot of doors opened by talking to otehrs to see what could be done)

Lots of scummy scroats at the start.

"Scummy Scroat"............You wonder why these kids never get a chance in life..

Very disappointed if any member of my family used words like that..

You know that her dad is thinking it though?

The British part of my family.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:To be fair if that poll was done after the vote it's hardly surprising. No one likes to admit to being a complete idiot who's swallowed a quite obvious lie, said lie being promptly dropped by the winning campaign within hours of the vote...

But it is important to see where things like the Economy finish.....

Which let us face it should be the number one driver.....

Results show in my opinion...........Heart ruling Head..........

That's my take............Feel free to disagree.

Genuine question, why do you think that? It's my sincere belief that people place far too much importance on this weird thing called "the Economy".

Just taking a punt, but Leave voter??

Economics governs pretty much every tangible aspect of our lives. People in rUK complain about L/SE but in reality L/SE massively cross subsidised and benefits from much lower investment per capita. Even worse when you factor in the EU RDA funding - which is why you get crass ignorance like Cornwall voting leave and then coming out saying, "but we are still getting our £80m to 2020, right.........??"

Nope, definitely not (see rest of post). I think Leave was an incredibly stupid decision. Just that the Economy was only one of the factors in my decision. My point is a broader one, that talk of a strong Economy had little impact because too many people are not feeling its benefits.

When it is a close result.......Little factors make all the difference..

Scummy Scroats sums them up pretty well, problem is that some of them see it as a great thing to be. I know we've all been lil gits in our time but it seems to be at a worse level now. (although maybe that's just the jaded view of living in a poo hole).

You can't ignore everything though Truss, it would be great to have the community clubs, sports etc, unfortunately we don't so need someway to open the door, first thing you could do is call a meeting to decide what clubs the area wants to have.

It would be difficult but worth it in the end.

(Pr4wn - If you let multi culturaism (*spelling) grow naturally then there's never a massive problem, if you try and force it on people, they push back)

Given the complaint is a lack of integration it is hardly being forced on people.

Don't think meetings are the right way to go, the type of people who turn up to council/town meetings etc don't really represent normal residents.

I think part of the problem is a decline in neighbourliness, I live in a decent spot and everyone just ignores each other - can barely get a hello out of people.

When I think of communities I think more in terms of racial and religious diversity..

Asian communities..Polish communities...Jewish. ...Manchester is a prime example.

London Asians voted overwhelmingly to stay...Not so in other parts of the Country..

Ask yourself why ??

It seems to be being forced, I seem to remember living in a cracking multi-racial/ethnic/religious etc etc area growing up since it's been talked about, pushed as an agenda all of that has fell away and now you have areas that used to mix and mingle completely staying away from each other.

There's a massive amount of distrust across the board so you have to have someway to start getting the communities together again. Truss has the best idea with sports and groups but you've got to have someway to get the people to know. don't advertise a meeting at the community centre etc but get boots on the street to knock on people's doors and tell them whats going on.

You'll always get some hold outs but even if it starts small it will eventually grow bigger.

Sounds liked forced multiculturalism...

Who's pushing the agenda?

Nostalgia playing a part here, I doubt there were large communities integrating - most likely it was a small number of migrants interacting with natives and when immigration increased smaller communities developed without much need for natives.

Offering people a game of 5 a side isn't going to do anything when half the country blames their problems on Johnny foreigner.

Ent wrote:Sounds liked forced multiculturalism...

Who's pushing the agenda?

Nostalgia playing a part here, I doubt there were large communities integrating - most likely it was a small number of migrants interacting with natives and when immigration increased smaller communities developed without much need for natives.

Offering people a game of 5 a side isn't going to do anything when half the country blames their problems on Johnny foreigner.

I agree......

Not something that can be contrived..

As I said ENT, it has to start small, Crumpsall and Cheetham Hill were massively integrated when I was a kid, there where still 'area's' but we all mixed and had a laugh.

the way some of you yap, you wouldn't want to try anything.

Easiest way to get people integrating is to find a common interest, you'd be surprised at how much good a game of footy can do in the communities.

It is one of the most contrived things we have in our society and personally would like all mention of it banned and just let people get on with getting on again

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Derbymanc wrote:
(As an example, when we moved in, our little area was blighted with lil gits causing trouble, the overiding sense was, we're not doing anything because nothing will ever get done. We changed all that by going to the council, cops etc and whilst I won't say it's perfect, we got a lot done and a lot of doors opened by talking to otehrs to see what could be done)

Lots of scummy scroats at the start.

"Scummy Scroat"............You wonder why these kids never get a chance in life..

Very disappointed if any member of my family used words like that..

Get over yourself you pompous twit.

We'll see how you feel when some kid in a hoady pulls up on his scooter and starts shouting abuse at your family and threatening violence against you and your kids because your in 'his ends'.

Pr4wn wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:I also saw nothing as diverse or more integrated in Toronto than I do daily in London. That's Toronto as a very piddly city on the global scale, not 'huge' in the slightest.

What a condescending thing to say. Having lived in both London and Toronto I can claim with some personal experience that Toronto is more diverse and there is far less tension than in London.

And that's Toronto as the fourth largest city in North America. Hardly "piddly".

2.6m is almost a quarter the size of London and not even Top 50 gloablly. So yes, not 'huge' at all.

Everyone loves blowing smoke up the arris of new places they move to and like.  I have never, not anywhere in the world I've lived or travelled, come across such rampant drug abuse just wandering the streets downtown as I have in Toronto.  Actually loved the city, but that was genuinely shocking.

You 'claim' verus I 'claim'. You've clearly seen and experienced something different to me.

Derbymanc wrote:As I said ENT, it has to start small, Crumpsall and Cheetham Hill were massively integrated when I was a kid, there where still 'area's' but we all mixed and had a laugh.

the way some of you yap, you wouldn't want to try anything.

Easiest way to get people integrating is to find a common interest, you'd be surprised at how much good a game of footy can do in the communities.

It is one of the most contrived things we have in our society and personally would like all mention of it banned and just let people get on with getting on again

Think you were the one who brought it up? Who has contrived it?

Crumpsall has a huge Asian population, doubled I think from 2001-2011 census - as that community grows it is natural it interacts with itself.

Like I said people don't really interact nowadays, kids all do it via social media.

When people lose the "they took our jerbs" mentality you might get better integration.

Toronto has been ranked as the best City to live in...in the World by "The Economist.."(2015)

The Economist came to this decision over a range of issues...

Safest city in North America....8th in the World...(London 18th)...

4th in the Liveability ranking...(London 55th)...

Cost of living ranking.....70th...(London 116th)...

Global food security ranking...8th....(London 20th)...

But If Toppy says it is a crap hole then who are we to argue ??

Toppy knows best..

Derbymanc wrote:As I said ENT, it has to start small, Crumpsall and Cheetham Hill were massively integrated when I was a kid, there where still 'area's' but we all mixed and had a laugh.

the way some of you yap, you wouldn't want to try anything.

Easiest way to get people integrating is to find a common interest, you'd be surprised at how much good a game of footy can do in the communities.

It is one of the most contrived things we have in our society and personally would like all mention of it banned and just let people get on with getting on again

There has to be a desire for change.......As for Cheetham Hill the cops decimated the gangs there....They're integrating in jail..

Not a crap hole. Like I said, really loved the City. But the drug abuse was horrendous. I'm talking off their face smackheads just wandering down the streets in the middle of the day like scenes out of the Walking Dead.

But is is a small highly affluent city therefore 'integration' is always going be easier to manage.

London is more diverse, Toronto still remains majority white. To put it in context - the number of non-ethnic/white people in London is more than double the entire population of Toronto.

I'm on about Multi culturism being contrived ENT, it's something that seems to have been brought up from nowhere as if communities weren't doing it anyway. As I'm sure your aware, Crumpsall has a high level of different cultures and races (Jewish, Asian, Polish, African, Irish) and so on and therefore didn't need it pushed upon it as we all used to get on anyway so as an adult I've brought that to teach my kids as that's what i learnt. therefore (hopefully) they'll pass that on to their kids and so on and so forth.

There's no massive easy way to change the mentality but the easiest way is to start with the kids so the generations get better and better. as you said about the neighbourly thing which has nearly disappeared, we need to start doing something to bring that back, problem is at the moment we have too many people in high places that say 'it's too much effort for too little reward' so don't bother, you have to start small to build it up.

Most kids don't interact over social media, they interact at schools and (given the chance) at clubs, it's too easy to whitewash it and say, nah don't bother, they'd rather sit on facebook.

Start it small, make it bigger, that's how most things start. (Oh and before you ask, yes i've been trying myself to start a boxing club up the road, problem is that i'm only at home 4 months of the year and am struggling to find someone that could run it whilst i'm away (with all the relevant tickets etc) plus i got to fund it myself (which isn't as much as you think) so i've got to get that together

Edit :- your thinking of Moss side Truss, the one's in Cheetham Hill are still going in the usual areas

TopHat24/7 wrote:London is more diverse, Toronto still remains majority white. To put it in context - the number of non-ethnic/white people in London is more than double the entire population of Toronto.

Not true. 4.9m white Londoners, 3.7m (EDIT: of those) UK born in the last census of 8.17m. Toronto 2.6m population in the census of the same year.

Last cencsus had London 45% ethnic white. Toronto last census was 52%.

Depends on what you count as London's population I guess, pop growth has been significant since the 2011 census but that kicks out a figure of 4.5m which isn't far short of double Toronto's total 2.6 population.

Point being, it's significantly greater - more than an entire city's worth greater.

Who's contriving it? Who in high places is topping my neighbour saying hello to me?

Everyone is busy and can't be arsed with each other, people don't want new friends once they hit 30. Sad but modern times.

Agree it is how you are brought up, wonder how the current generation of immigrants will be brought up given eu exit and scapegoating that's going around.

Good luck with the boxing club.

Perhaps you guys are unlikeable or live in $hitholes. I've always got on with my neighbours.

Scottrf wrote:Perhaps you guys are unlikeable or live in $hitholes. I've always got on with my neighbours.

It is quite nice were I live, but people barely talk to each other. Get about 2 cards at Christmas.

Contrast this to growing up and I remember neighbours being at parents birthday party's etc.

Sometimes it's the area, sometimes the person(s).

I moved last year from a fairly scrubby area of North London to no more than a mile or so away but to a much much nicer area and I've gone from zero interaction with my neighbours to regularly chatting with my new ones, both next door and various along the street, exchanging the odd Xmas card, trying to get to a residents association meeting once a year at least etc....

But my missus doesn't speak to anyone. She's a nice friendly person but hasn't made a jot of effort to get to know anyone.

Cheers ENT,

I live in a sh#thole Scott (blackley) but I do try and get on with the neighbours and the rest of the street, there is just an atmosphere that pervades now where people can't be bothered. (although we did get a few turn up to a party we had).

And I agree (again) with Ent that it's just different these days and maybe is people just can't be bothered, although I would just so someone looks after the house whilst i'm out :-)

You probably sat on her voice box toppy. I don't speak much to my neighbours but mostly because their parents are fairly elderly and the kids are really young. They themselves work in the city so apart from saying hi, bye and stop waving your willy at my wife, they don't talk to me.

Derbymanc wrote:Cheers ENT,

I live in a sh#thole Scott (blackley) but I do try and get on with the neighbours and the rest of the street, there is just an atmosphere that pervades now where people can't be bothered. (although we did get a few turn up to a party we had).

And I agree (again) with Ent that it's just different these days and maybe is people just can't be bothered, although I would just so someone looks after the house whilst i'm out :-)

Agree with that too. A generational thing perhaps.

Whilst I say I've tried to get chummy with the neighbours, it's no more than what my dad did on the first weekend I moved in - he's already been in both neighbours' houses/gardens for a cup of tea, I haven't got that chummy in 15 months!!

Well that comment went down better than I expected. Perhaps you guys aren't so bad

Scottrf wrote:Well that comment went down better than I expected. Perhaps you guys aren't so bad

We're all hugs and kisses really......

TopHat24/7 wrote:Sometimes it's the area, sometimes the person(s).

I moved last year from a fairly scrubby area of North London to no more than a mile or so away but to a much much nicer area and I've gone from zero interaction with my neighbours to regularly chatting with my new ones, both next door and various along the street, exchanging the odd Xmas card, trying to get to a residents association meeting once a year at least etc....

But my missus doesn't speak to anyone. She's a nice friendly person but hasn't made a jot of effort to get to know anyone.

She's sixteen and Filipino. Give her a chance!

I live out in the sticks in the fens of East Anglia...farm country. You have to drive a couple of miles along really bad dirt tracks to get to your "neighbours".

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:I also saw nothing as diverse or more integrated in Toronto than I do daily in London. That's Toronto as a very piddly city on the global scale, not 'huge' in the slightest.

What a condescending thing to say. Having lived in both London and Toronto I can claim with some personal experience that Toronto is more diverse and there is far less tension than in London.

And that's Toronto as the fourth largest city in North America. Hardly "piddly".

2.6m is almost a quarter the size of London and not even Top 50 gloablly. So yes, not 'huge' at all.

Everyone loves blowing smoke up the arris of new places they move to and like.  I have never, not anywhere in the world I've lived or travelled, come across such rampant drug abuse just wandering the streets downtown as I have in Toronto.  Actually loved the city, but that was genuinely shocking.

You 'claim' verus I 'claim'. You've clearly seen and experienced something different to me.

Except I've lived in both places and I have far more experience to draw from.

Also, the population of the GTA (Greater Toronto Area) which includes places like Mississauga and Brampton - generally considered to be part of Toronto - is almost 6.5m.

I'm not going to indulge your ego on populations any more but integration is just better here, in my experience. And my experience happens to me more than yours.

TopHat24/7 wrote:Not a crap hole.  Like I said, really loved the City. But the drug abuse was horrendous. I'm talking off their face smackheads just wandering down the streets in the middle of the day like scenes out of the Walking Dead.

But is is a small highly affluent city therefore 'integration' is always going be easier to manage.

London is more diverse, Toronto still remains majority white. To put it in context - the number of non-ethnic/white people in London is more than double the entire population of Toronto.

As I said earlier, Toronto is the most diverse city on the planet. http://www.metronews.ca/news/toronto/2016/05/16/toronto-the-diverse.html

Keep headbutting that brick wall, though.

TopHat24/7 wrote:Last cencsus had London 45% ethnic white. Toronto last census was 52%.

Depends on what you count as London's population I guess, pop growth has been significant since the 2011 census but that kicks out a figure of 4.5m which isn't far short of double Toronto's total 2.6 population.

Point being, it's significantly greater - more than an entire city's worth greater.

Newsflash for the Tory, diversity is not Whites vs. "The Rest".

Pr4wn wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:I also saw nothing as diverse or more integrated in Toronto than I do daily in London. That's Toronto as a very piddly city on the global scale, not 'huge' in the slightest.

What a condescending thing to say. Having lived in both London and Toronto I can claim with some personal experience that Toronto is more diverse and there is far less tension than in London.

And that's Toronto as the fourth largest city in North America. Hardly "piddly".

2.6m is almost a quarter the size of London and not even Top 50 gloablly. So yes, not 'huge' at all.

Everyone loves blowing smoke up the arris of new places they move to and like.  I have never, not anywhere in the world I've lived or travelled, come across such rampant drug abuse just wandering the streets downtown as I have in Toronto.  Actually loved the city, but that was genuinely shocking.

You 'claim' verus I 'claim'. You've clearly seen and experienced something different to me.

Except I've lived in both places and I have far more experience to draw from.

Also, the population of the GTA (Greater Toronto Area) which includes places like Mississauga and Brampton - generally considered to be part of Toronto - is almost 6.5m.

I'm not going to indulge your ego on populations any more but integration is just better here, in my experience. And my experience happens to me more than yours.

Your experience of Toronto is certainly greater.

Your experience of London has always come across as petty churlish and bitter. Therefore I hold it in little regard as it's always sounded likely you simply failed to ever take advantage of living here to the full.