Brexit

First topic message reminder :

Funniest thing to happen in years. Have been following the craziness on the FT. Despite the implications if our current crop of retards manage to push it through I can't remember when I've read the news everyday without fail and learned something new. What does everyone think of the possibility that we stay in the single market, retain freedom of movement. Pay into the EU coffers and lose our vote ??

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Nothing like looking on the brightside..Gwlad

Tell me I'm wrong

We have no navy left…i think 19 ships, no carriers, no harriers. We aren't the same as 1982 UK, we're a speck on the planet in terms of our influence. Militarily obsolete and irrelevant in anything but tactical terms. We have great soldiers but no power to back them and the moral argument Thatcher used is not a 21st century imperative. And if we flex our muscle over Gib the international community will do what they did over Suez and rightly so. And were Argentina to decide to take Las Malvinas back again we could no longer respond as we did in 1982 nor, i expect would the UN security council allow it, the USA under Trump might though.

Do you think the Scots will say No this time after we just alienated Europe? I doubt it. And do you think that when they leave Republican Ireland might not sit up and sniff the wind again?. England will be stuck with Wales and glad of it.

We're not going to "flex our muscle" over Gib. It was stupid sabre-rattling from a Lord. Looks terrible diplomatically, but no war with Spain will be started.

If you invade Spain do it in the afternoon while they are enjoying a siesta...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:If you invade Spain do it in the afternoon while they are enjoying a siesta...

Course we aren't going to invade but if i was a Gibraltarian I'd be asking why have the UK made it plain that their relationship with Europe is over? This only serves to undermine their status with Spain. We all know we won't go to war over it and so do Spain and i don't see Spain marching in, so perhaps it will remain status quo until the Queen passes and the UK becomes such an embarrassment the younger generation of Gibs (The Giblets) actually want out! I imagine the Argentinians also know we we wouldn't/couldn't go to war over the Falklands again.

Because their relationship with Europe isn't over.

Pr4wn wrote:Because their relationship with Europe isn't over.

Well then we should give up our Imperialist trinkets and give it back. It used to be important strategically to our Mediterranean naval domination and for Suez but now such positions are indefensible and anachronistic. Fact is if the Spaniards or Argentines were living in Ryde we'd all be having a fit.

Macri has enough with Economic...Corruption and Pollution problems to worry about the Falklands...The rainforest is dying fast over there and bringing problems..

Calm down with your hyperbolic tendencies...and relax.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Macri has enough with Economic...Corruption and Pollution problems to worry about the Falklands...The rainforest is dying fast over there and bringing problems..

Calm down with your hyperbolic tendencies...and relax.

Mmmmm, if I am using hyperbole i guess that makes you the mug believing my statements to be literal

Gwlad wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:Because their relationship with Europe isn't over.

Well then we should give up our Imperialist trinkets and give it back. It used to be important strategically to our Mediterranean naval domination and for Suez but now such positions are indefensible and anachronistic. Fact is if the Spaniards or Argentines were living in Ryde we'd all be having a fit.

They're neither Spanish nor Argentine so they'll have to live with that because it won't be changing, remind me how the sovereignty referendums went in 2002 and 2013?

Gwlad wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Macri has enough with Economic...Corruption and Pollution problems to worry about the Falklands...The rainforest is dying fast over there and bringing problems..

Calm down with your hyperbolic tendencies...and relax.

Mmmmm, if I am using hyperbole i guess that makes you the mug believing my statements to be literal  

Maybe I'm just humoring you.

Humor seems to be lacking in your output...

Disgraceful legacies of a shameful Imperial past that compromise the territorial integrity of Spain and Argentina.

And sovereignty referendums are challengeable under UN Principles on Decolonisation. The will of the people is irrelevant if the acquisition of said territories is proven to be coercive or unlawful.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Macri has enough with Economic...Corruption and Pollution problems to worry about the Falklands...The rainforest is dying fast over there and bringing problems..

Calm down with your hyperbolic tendencies...and relax.

Mmmmm, if I am using hyperbole i guess that makes you the mug believing my statements to be literal  

Maybe I'm just humoring you.

Humor seems to be lacking in your output...

and absent in yours.

Gwlad wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Macri has enough with Economic...Corruption and Pollution problems to worry about the Falklands...The rainforest is dying fast over there and bringing problems..

Calm down with your hyperbolic tendencies...and relax.

Mmmmm, if I am using hyperbole i guess that makes you the mug believing my statements to be literal  

Maybe I'm just humoring you.

Humor seems to be lacking in your output...

and absent in yours.

You're more than welcome to think so..

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:Because their relationship with Europe isn't over.

Well then we should give up our Imperialist trinkets and give it back. It used to be important strategically to our Mediterranean naval domination and for Suez but now such positions are indefensible and anachronistic. Fact is if the Spaniards or Argentines were living in Ryde we'd all be having a fit.

They're neither Spanish nor Argentine so they'll have to live with that because it won't be changing, remind me how the joint sovereignty referendums went in 2002 and 2013?

fixed

in other words

would you like to live in a complete mess where Spain and UK govern your country together? Quite clever really

Nowt wrong with the Navy (or RFA) carriers are on their way soon and the new Tide boats are all on time. Your right it's a completely different set up these days as you no longer need 10 different ships as one will do the same job. Not that Spain (nor the EU) would go to war over Gib.

On the side of the Gibbies and the Falklands, shouldn't we abide with what the people want which is to remain as part of the UK?
Can't really say we should let the Scots and the welsh (and the brexiteers) have a vote and stick by it and not do the same for them surely!!!!

Sorry Pr4wn, I totally disagree, May and the rest have been absolutely ripped to shreds over Brexit, their lies have been brought to the forefront and we all know what an absolute pile of twaddle the whole thing was. Now is the time to concentrate on getting the best deal we can for us and go back to the petty squabbling after..

Oh and as for the banks, it was reported as Companies leaving the UK which was a blatant lie, bout time All sides just spoke the truth (never gonna happen I know)

Gwlad wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Lets go to war over Gibraltar.

We'd last about 5 minutes; Argentina would invade the Falklands again and this time we'd lose them since we no longer have a navy

The UK is dead in the water. It cut off its own nose to spite its face and since it will soon be cast into isolation by our former trading partners in Europe, I can just see how a war with Spain over Gibraltar would go. To top it off there will be another referendum and this time the Scots will go. IMO this will foment a resurgent separatist movement in Ireland and by my estimates by 2030 the UK will no longer exist.

Nothing lasts forever.

Change the ...

Lets go to war over Gibraltar.

We'd last about 6 minutes; Argentina would invade the Falklands again and this time we'd lose them since we no longer have a navy

The UK is dead in the water. It cut off its own nose to spite its face and since it will soon be cast into isolation by our former trading partners in Europe, I can just see how a war with Spain over Gibraltar would go. To top it off there will be another referendum and this time the Scots will go. IMO this will foment a resurgent separatist movement in Ireland and by my estimates by 2030 the UK will no longer exist.

Nothing lasts forever

About what I expected.

Gwlad wrote:Disgraceful legacies of a shameful Imperial past that compromise the territorial integrity of Spain and Argentina.

:yawn:

Gwlad wrote:And sovereignty referendums are challengeable under UN Principles on Decolonisation. The will of the people is irrelevant if the acquisition of said territories is proven to be coercive or unlawful.

That's all fine then, as the U.N. wasn't in existence pre-1945.

I'd only just noticed that bit from Glad, how can you ignore the will of the people that are actually living, breeding and striving out a successful life there now?.

That is one of the stupidest things i've read, and i read my own stuff as well ;-)

Derbymanc wrote:I'd only just noticed that bit from Glad, how can you ignore the will of the people that are actually living, breeding and striving out a successful life there now?.

That is one of the stupidest things i've read, and i read my own stuff as well ;-)

then the UN must be stupid, as must you

look up UN Policies on De Colonisation

It's about time Argentina and Spain stopped crying over it to be honest.

The Special Committee on the Situation with regard to the Implementation of the Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples (C-24) was formed in 1961 and hasn't actually been used in years. I've been to where it's based at the UN in New York. The giant room specially dedicated to this body is now used for other matters.

There is no way that the UN gets involved in this matter because, put simply, neither Gibraltar nor the Falklands are colonies.

Pr4wn wrote:The Special Committee on the Situation with regard to the Implementation of the Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples (C-24) was formed in 1961 and hasn't actually been used in years. I've been to where it's based at the UN in New York. The giant room specially dedicated to this body is now used for other matters.

There is no way that the UN gets involved in this matter because, put simply, neither Gibraltar nor the Falklands are colonies.

Exactly, a previously uninhabited island group cannot be a colony.

Gwlad wrote:

Derbymanc wrote:I'd only just noticed that bit from Glad, how can you ignore the will of the people that are actually living, breeding and striving out a successful life there now?.

That is one of the stupidest things i've read, and i read my own stuff as well ;-)

then the UN must be stupid, as must you

look up UN Policies on De Colonisation

Umm yeah that was my point Gbrav, it's a stupid ruling. If the overwhelming (a lot more overwhelming than brexit and scottish independance) consensus is that they don't want to come under SPANISH or Argentine law then why does that have to change now. Or are the EU about to go on a mass romp through Europe and the rest of the world handing all bits of land back to those who originally owned it.

although then again i supposed it's the vapour trails keeping us all down and sticking us to the status quo ;-)

Don't panic - everything is fine.  Everything is just a-ok.  Breathe in calmly.... hold...and breathe out.  That's it.

Everything is normal and fine - everywhere; - except everything is completely bat-schidt crazy on just about every continent on the face of the planet.  The inmates have been released onto the streets of Gotham, Rome is burning, books are burning, bodies are burning, reality is burning, lies are truth and truth is against the law......

...but just relax.... have a cigarette...Eastenders, X-Factor and I'm a Celebrity replays will keep everything just lovely.  You're all worried about absolutely nothing..........................................

Derbymanc wrote:Sorry Pr4wn, I totally disagree, May and the rest have been absolutely ripped to shreds over Brexit, their lies have been brought to the forefront and we all know what an absolute pile of twaddle the whole thing was. Now is the time to concentrate on getting the best deal we can for us and go back to the petty squabbling after..

Oh and as for the banks, it was reported as Companies leaving the UK which was a blatant lie, bout time All sides just spoke the truth (never gonna happen I know)

So we should just sit back and let May increase our trade with the murderous Saudis? Or just grin and bear it while watching that pillar of integrity Liam Fox talk about Britain's "shared values" with the self-confessed murderer Rodrigo Duterte?

Meanwhile, Nigel Farage continues on his merry way - pursuing a scorched earth policy at the European Parliament in with the aim of ensuring there is no deal, plus maximum animosity between Continental Europe and the UK.

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:Meanwhile, Nigel Farage continues on his merry way - pursuing a scorched earth policy at the European Parliament in with the aim of ensuring there is no deal, plus maximum animosity between Continental Europe and the UK.

I know they have to follow protocol and all that, but they should just tell him to piss off and ignore anything he happens to say.

Pr4wn wrote:

Derbymanc wrote:Sorry Pr4wn, I totally disagree, May and the rest have been absolutely ripped to shreds over Brexit, their lies have been brought to the forefront and we all know what an absolute pile of twaddle the whole thing was. Now is the time to concentrate on getting the best deal we can for us and go back to the petty squabbling after..

Oh and as for the banks, it was reported as Companies leaving the UK which was a blatant lie, bout time All sides just spoke the truth (never gonna happen I know)

So we should just sit back and let May increase our trade with the murderous Saudis? Or just grin and bear it while watching that pillar of integrity Liam Fox talk about Britain's "shared values" with the self-confessed murderer Rodrigo Duterte?

Ahh, Liam Fox. That outstanding example of all that's above board in politics.....t0sser.

Missed the point completely, got no issues with people bringing up things like that, every day of the week and twice on sunday. What I don't think should be happening is everything being lumped into a lets use it as an excuse to slag off Brexit.

Personally think it makes the remainers once again look like spoilt brats and completely undermines the message they're actually trying to get across.

Looks like you're the one with preconceptions about remainers. There's nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade.

If jobs leave the UK because of Brexit, it should be pointed out that this negative situation was caused by the ridiculous decision to leave.

Derbymanc wrote:Missed the point completely, got no issues with people bringing up things like that, every day of the week and twice on sunday. What I don't think should be happening is everything being lumped into a lets use it as an excuse to slag off Brexit.

Personally think it makes the remainers once again look like spoilt brats and completely undermines the message they're actually trying to get across.

It doesn't matter now - the deed is done so diss away, nothing to lose. As for everything being used to slag off brexit - this is what you voted for, 10 years minimum of nothing but brexit while everything else is ignored.

I've got no preconceptions, just like some brexiteers are complete nuggets, some remainers are the same but for that side instead.

Whats been missing and (quite evident here) is discussion now between both sides. as Shah has said what's done is done and we need to work out whats is NOW best for the UK and continually undermining the decision isn't that.

Also hasn't it been shown that no jobs will be lost by companies opening another office elsewhere, in fact that opens up more jobs across the EU which in the long run should be a good thing.

The reason everything else is being ignored Shah is that EVERYTHING is being turned around to Brexit. As one of the arguments I heard about remain was that we should let the MP's do their job and they choose.

Oh and I thought i'd covered this before Shah (when we had a proper chat) given the chance again i'd vote remain as it's plain that the main players didn't have a proper plan for this. It's not going to happen so we need to get behind the country again and then moan after it's finished. Otherwise imo your hampering it and are part of the problem right now.

What was the main reason you voted out Derby...

For me Truss and this is an abstract concept but the Haye/Chisora fight was a microcosm of the problem with the EU, the UK lacked the control to govern it's own people. I have never and never would vote on the European elections so to me it is not a democratic process because I disagree with it. Our government make various mistakes but I at least voted for them to do so.

Derbymanc wrote:I've got no preconceptions, just like some brexiteers are complete nuggets, some remainers are the same but for that side instead.

Whats been missing and (quite evident here) is discussion now between both sides. as Shah has said what's done is done and we need to work out whats is NOW best for the UK and continually undermining the decision isn't that.

Also hasn't it been shown that no jobs will be lost by companies opening another office elsewhere, in fact that opens up more jobs across the EU which in the long run should be a good thing.

The reason everything else is being ignored Shah is that EVERYTHING is being turned around to Brexit. As one of the arguments I heard about remain was that we should let the MP's do their job and they choose.

Oh and I thought i'd covered this before Shah (when we had a proper chat) given the chance again i'd vote remain as it's plain that the main players didn't have a proper plan for this. It's not going to happen so we need to get behind the country again and then moan after it's finished. Otherwise imo your hampering it and are part of the problem right now.

No, most are moving jobs. Lloyds expected to move 100 out of 600 jobs from London.

Not confirmed but Goldman Saccs, HSBC, JP Morgan meant to be moving thousands of jobs between them. Citigroup looking for a European hub.

It all depends on the passporting rights obtained in the deal.

You knew before hand there was no plan, well done on your vote choice.

For me Truss and this is an abstract concept but the Haye/Chisora fight was a microcosm of the problem with the EU, the UK lacked the control to govern it's own people. I have never and never would vote on the European elections so to me it is not a democratic process because I disagree with it. Our government make various mistakes but I at least voted for them to do so.

Your own fault you haven't voted and just because you disagree doesn't mean it is undemocratic. There is probably an argument that the EU is more democratic than the U.K. system given the house of lords.

The U.K. had absolute sovereignty as demonstrated by the ability to even have a referendum, in contrast to Scotland who have to ask permission.

It would be my fault if I voted remain but I didn't, the two are not mutually exclusive.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:It would be my fault if I voted remain but I didn't, the two are not mutually exclusive.

I mean it is your own fault you haven't voted in European elections - not leaving the EU. I'm not sure what your statement means even allowing for that confusion.

Personally Truss (and ENT) and i still haven't changed my mind on this. I think the EU has far too much power and it's run by a few that would willingly sacrifice other countries for their own gain.

Looking at the little jibes over Gib and that, seems to show that if you don't tow the line then they'll push and push whether it's worse for you or not (see Greece)

I also think in the long run it will benefit us better and maybe just maybe have to lead us to turn into ourselves and start producing more and better industries. This will take a while and won't be a bonus to us but will be when my kids are older and looking for careers.

As with the Scottish Independence vote I just think the way both parties went about it wrong, the difference is that most 'remainers' don't seem to see this and are almost arrogant in a way they come across when discussing things and downright childish when others don't agree which is part of the reason we got this way in the first place.

That was always the reason I was going to remain...I don't have blind faith that we'll be better off. I wanted to hear concrete info. All I got was unelected EU puppeteers controlling us, mild racism and fantastically from my dad that we can now sell hover crafts to Brazil!

Derbymanc wrote:Personally Truss (and ENT) and i still haven't changed my mind on this. I think the EU has far too much power and it's run by a few that would willingly sacrifice other countries for their own gain.

Looking at the little jibes over Gib and that, seems to show that if you don't tow the line then they'll push and push whether it's worse for you or not (see Greece)

I also think in the long run it will benefit us better and maybe just maybe have to lead us to turn into ourselves and start producing more and better industries. This will take a while and won't be a bonus to us but will be when my kids are older and looking for careers.

As with the Scottish Independence vote I just think the way both parties went about it wrong, the difference is that most 'remainers' don't seem to see this and are almost arrogant in a way they come across when discussing things and downright childish when others don't agree which is part of the reason we got this way in the first place.

You seem quite reasonable Derby, but I don't agree with your last paragraph; at least, not entirely. Yes, there are those who wanted to remain who're seriously p!ssed at the result (justifiably IMO given the lies and xenophobia peddled by that arse, Farage et al), but equally there are just as many childish 'Brexiteers'.

I don't think there's anything close to a guarantee we'll be better off in the long run. At all. To vote out in the hope that's the case is, to my mind, somewhat perverse and risky. Britain should always have been fully in the EU and arguing for changes within it's structures. We (and our politicians) never really engaged properly in the EU and the way it works. As such, all you ever heard were cheap jibes about how they're 'undemocratic' etc; as if we're any better really.

Anyway, done deal now and you're right about the fact there's no sense in keeping on about a result that won't change. That said though, I wholly stand by any and every reasonable challenge and query as to how Davis, Fox, Johnson etc are negotiating for our exit and dealing with the humongous realities of what that means. Frankly, I don't think they really have a clue.

I feel childish about seeing Johnson and Gove going around with a 350 million logo for the NHS on a van for four weeks and then voting against it the first chance they got...

VOTING AGAINST IT !!!!!!

Now the referendum vote was 52-48 and that is close......Granny may have been swayed by their deception.....

I want another Referendum...I'm with Tony Blair on this anyway.................

In my old little way and with my own little cross...I made the Lib dems pay for the Tuition fee lie.....He was voted out......

Can't do anything about this though.........

I do see the Lib Dem leader's point of view. A week or two ago he hit the nail on the head. He said when the referendum was held the question was a simple Yes or No to stay in Europe. There was no third option like Yes with a hard Brexit included.

Sorry Navy, wasn't direct of the likes of you lot on here who have helped me understand things i didn't before. Just some come across like that (and I have no doubts there would have been brexiteers doing the same if it was the other way round.

I'm all for draggin people forward and making them explain their actions esepcially as Truss has pointed when they immediately go against it afterwards.

I'd go for another referendum as my vote would have changed, purely based on the lies peddled by our government. It's a tricky one now though i do agree.

Referendums are very tricky things. The EU and Scottish Referendums prove that. Sometimes things change in the interim post poll and people then feel conned or co-erced into voting in a way that they may not have if circumstances had been different. I am sure many who voted to leave did so without the knowledge that it would involve a hard Brexit just like many Scots voted no last time because Better Together told them it would be the only way they'd remain in Europe. Things change and with it opinions - very quickly.

Is that true? I don't remember it being said on a platform of we're better together in Europe. I remember there being loads of arguments by Salmond that it didn't matter as the Scots would stay in Europe anyway (until the EU said nope you'll go to the back of the queue)

I advocated "No" and I definitely remember the argument peddled by Darling et al. that the Scots' only option to surely remain part of the EU was the remain in the UK. We were told that the EU application process after leaving the UK would be long and very arduous.

Derbymanc wrote:Is that true? I don't remember it being said on a platform of we're better together in Europe. I remember there being loads of arguments by Salmond that it didn't matter as the Scots would stay in Europe anyway (until the EU said nope you'll go to the back of the queue)

Better Together, and Ruth Davidson, commonly trumpeted that the only way Scots could protect their place in Europe was by voting no for independence and that won/scared a lot of people into voting the way they did. Quite hilariously now Davidson has turned full circle and is towing the Tory party line now happy to go along with Brexit. That is the massive problem Scots have with Scottish Labour and Scottish Conservative now. Both parties MP's will tow the party line in Westminster even if it is to the detriment of Scotland hence why the political landscape now in Scotland is vastly different to what it was 15 to 20 years ago.

Can't argue with the second referendum and all that then really. I really do think there should be something to protect the citizens of the UK from being asked to vote on something that then changes near enough straight after. (I hate politics)

Gwlad wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Lets go to war over Gibraltar.

We'd last about 5 minutes; Argentina would invade the Falklands again and this time we'd lose them since we no longer have a navy

The UK is dead in the water. It cut off its own nose to spite its face and since it will soon be cast into isolation by our former trading partners in Europe, I can just see how a war with Spain over Gibraltar would go. To top it off there will be another referendum and this time the Scots will go. IMO this will foment a resurgent separatist movement in Ireland and by my estimates by 2030 the UK will no longer exist.

Nothing lasts forever.

Change the ...

Lets go to war over Gibraltar.

We'd last about 6 minutes; Argentina would invade the Falklands again and this time we'd lose them since we no longer have a navy

The UK is dead in the water. It cut off its own nose to spite its face and since it will soon be cast into isolation by our former trading partners in Europe, I can just see how a war with Spain over Gibraltar would go. To top it off there will be another referendum and this time the Scots will go. IMO this will foment a resurgent separatist movement in Ireland and by my estimates by 2030 the UK will no longer exist.

Nothing lasts forever

Okay, apologies to Prawn...now thats some top quality scaremongering!

Pr4wn wrote:I advocated "No" and I definitely remember the argument peddled by Darling et al. that the Scots' only option to surely remain part of the EU was the remain in the UK. We were told that the EU application process after leaving the UK would be long and very arduous.

Really - what a surprise!

Seems you can't trust Labour any more than the Tories...