Brexit

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Funniest thing to happen in years. Have been following the craziness on the FT. Despite the implications if our current crop of retards manage to push it through I can't remember when I've read the news everyday without fail and learned something new. What does everyone think of the possibility that we stay in the single market, retain freedom of movement. Pay into the EU coffers and lose our vote ??

In the year to September Scotland’s GDP grew by 0.7%, while that of the rest of the country grew by 2.4%

http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21717089-cheap-oil-and-loss-jobs-finance-have-brought-economic-growth-almost?fsrc=scn/fb/te/bl/ed/takingthelowroadcrisesinitsmainindustrieshavesetscotlandonapoorerpaththantherestofbritain

Ouch. Thank god for the Barnett bail-out....

Gerard Batten, the party’s Brexit spokesman, said trade relations with the EU could be sorted out in “an afternoon over a cup of coffee”. Britain would offer the EU continued free movement of goods, services and capital, but insist on an end to free movement of people. “Why wouldn’t they agree?” Mr Batten told the FT

Cameron's fear of morons like this brought us to where we are now.

I see Tony Blair is once again trying to rekindle the broken love-affair with his people? He's picked a good topic. Arch enemies will now run to give him a big hug! Welcome home Tony... we forgive you.

Yep. Fortune makes for strange bedfellows as Wendy deng can no doubt testify

And nice name - 'Open Britain'. His friend George will be proud.

Peugeot have been given the same assurances as Nissan. We're bribing a part French government owned company to stay here post brexit. What a circus.

SecretFly wrote:I see Tony Blair is once again trying to rekindle the broken love-affair with his people?  He's picked a good topic.  Arch enemies will now run to give him a big hug!  Welcome home Tony... we forgive you.

Thought I was in some horrible parallel Universe when Bliar chimed in on this. Sod off and die for Heaven's sake you lying, scumbag! Not you SF, Bliar....

SecretFly wrote:I see Tony Blair is once again trying to rekindle the broken love-affair with his people?  He's picked a good topic.  Arch enemies will now run to give him a big hug!  Welcome home Tony... we forgive you.

Yeah...er...nope!

I would almost hate him for sticking his nose in (more than I already do), but all he'll end up doing is dividing Labour even more and further weakening effective opposition to the government.

I wonder...does he actually want his old job back? Poor Jezza - as if he didn't have enough problems already!

Finally, some guts from the HOL

Not sure this has been covered on here but Lord Ashcroft did a huge poll on the main reason Leavers voted leave......Makes sobering news......

What was the main reason you voted for Brexit ??

49%............Sovereignty..

33%............Immigration..

13%............Don't like the EU organisation itself..

6% !!..........Economy..

Pretty scary if the poll is an accurate reflection....

The Economy was the leading trigger for those that wanted to stay on 43%....

Yep. Says it all really.

Yeh, well known 'sovereignty' was the widest disclosed reason. Not that I believe it.

"I'm a racist that blames all my problems and failings on foreigners" doesn't have quite the same ring to it....

Poll sums up Brexit perfectly really.

To be fair if that poll was done after the vote it's hardly surprising. No one likes to admit to being a complete idiot who's swallowed a quite obvious lie, said lie being promptly dropped by the winning campaign within hours of the vote...

Mad for Chelsea wrote:To be fair if that poll was done after the vote it's hardly surprising. No one likes to admit to being a complete idiot who's swallowed a quite obvious lie, said lie being promptly dropped by the winning campaign within hours of the vote...

But it is important to see where things like the Economy finish.....

Which let us face it should be the number one driver.....

Results show in my opinion...........Heart ruling Head..........

That's my take............Feel free to disagree.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:To be fair if that poll was done after the vote it's hardly surprising. No one likes to admit to being a complete idiot who's swallowed a quite obvious lie, said lie being promptly dropped by the winning campaign within hours of the vote...

But it is important to see where things like the Economy finish.....

Which let us face it should be the number one driver.....

Results show in my opinion...........Heart ruling Head..........

That's my take............Feel free to disagree.

Genuine question, why do you think that? It's my sincere belief that people place far too much importance on this weird thing called "the Economy". By that I mean that in the run up to the Referendum we heard a lot about the UK's strong Economy, but a lot of the areas in the UK aren't really feeling that, hence the poorer areas almost all voting to leave. There was a good piece in the Guardian a while back about this: in the UK, only London and the South East are doing better in terms of GDP per capita than they were in 2008 (before the crash); Scotland are on an upward curve and almost recovered to 2008 levels, but all other areas of the UK have suffered badly. In light of that it's hardly a surprise that the "strong Economy" argument didn't wash.

I do agree about the "Heart ruling Head" bit though. What the Leave campaign managed successfully was to turn it into an emotional issue "Take back control" was an excellent slogan, even if it doesn't mean anything (or means too many things perhaps?). A lot of the Leave voters I "know" (not in person, I actually don't personally know anyone who voted Leave) said things like: "I felt we weren't being given enough truth from either side, so I went with my gut feeling". Frustrating to me, because the information was there if you bothered to look, but both the beauty of democracy and its biggest flaw lie in that every person's vote has equal value. Without getting into a long debate over referenda as a tool, it's the reason we (the West) have gradually made our way towards today's form of representative democracy.

I also think many more people were fooled by the 350m a week to the NHS figures than are now willing to admit. No one likes to admit to being an idiot, but there's a reason Vote Leave chose that message for the side of the bus.

Economic Growth............

1. Higher average incomes..
2. Lower unemployment...
3. More money for public services...
4. Encourages investment
5. Less Government spending...

Can't be enough importance placed on it for me.....like I said it should be the first trigger in any line of thinking...

All parties have policies they don't enforce in Government...But I have a problem with putting a 350 million policy on your bus and then "VOTING" against it at the first opportunity after you have won.......That is bollox.

The Liberals were decimated after doing it...........We can't do anything about this.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:To be fair if that poll was done after the vote it's hardly surprising. No one likes to admit to being a complete idiot who's swallowed a quite obvious lie, said lie being promptly dropped by the winning campaign within hours of the vote...

But it is important to see where things like the Economy finish.....

Which let us face it should be the number one driver.....

Results show in my opinion...........Heart ruling Head..........

That's my take............Feel free to disagree.

Genuine question, why do you think that? It's my sincere belief that people place far too much importance on this weird thing called "the Economy".

Just taking a punt, but Leave voter??

Economics governs pretty much every tangible aspect of our lives. People in rUK complain about L/SE but in reality L/SE massively cross subsidised and benefits from much lower investment per capita. Even worse when you factor in the EU RDA funding - which is why you get crass ignorance like Cornwall voting leave and then coming out saying, "but we are still getting our £80m to 2020, right.........??"

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Economic Growth............

1. Higher average incomes..
2. Lower unemployment...
3. More money for public services...
4. Encourages investment
5. Less Government spending...

Can't be enough importance placed on it for me.....like I said it should be the first trigger in any line of thinking...

All parties have policies they don't enforce in Government...But I have a problem with putting a 350 million policy on your bus and then "VOTING" against it at the first opportunity after you have won.......That is bollox.

The Liberals were decimated after doing it...........We can't do anything about this.

I'd agree, as long as this so-say 'growth' is distributed reasonably throughout the population. So-called 'trickle down' economics is bollox.

navyblueshorts wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Economic Growth............

1. Higher average incomes..
2. Lower unemployment...
3. More money for public services...
4. Encourages investment
5. Less Government spending...

Can't be enough importance placed on it for me.....like I said it should be the first trigger in any line of thinking...

All parties have policies they don't enforce in Government...But I have a problem with putting a 350 million policy on your bus and then "VOTING" against it at the first opportunity after you have won.......That is bollox.

The Liberals were decimated after doing it...........We can't do anything about this.

I'd agree, as long as this so-say 'growth' is distributed reasonably throughout the population. So-called 'trickle down' economics is bollox.

How would you define reasonable?

London keeps pence in the pound of the tax it generates, for example. And when projects like HS2 come out that try to intravenously connect L/SE growth better with the rest of the country everybody kicks off.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:To be fair if that poll was done after the vote it's hardly surprising. No one likes to admit to being a complete idiot who's swallowed a quite obvious lie, said lie being promptly dropped by the winning campaign within hours of the vote...

But it is important to see where things like the Economy finish.....

Which let us face it should be the number one driver.....

Results show in my opinion...........Heart ruling Head..........

That's my take............Feel free to disagree.

Genuine question, why do you think that? It's my sincere belief that people place far too much importance on this weird thing called "the Economy".

Just taking a punt, but Leave voter??

Economics governs pretty much every tangible aspect of our lives. People in rUK complain about L/SE but in reality L/SE massively cross subsidised and benefits from much lower investment per capita. Even worse when you factor in the EU RDA funding - which is why you get crass ignorance like Cornwall voting leave and then coming out saying, "but we are still getting our £80m to 2020, right.........??"

Nope, definitely not (see rest of post). I think Leave was an incredibly stupid decision. Just that the Economy was only one of the factors in my decision. My point is a broader one, that talk of a strong Economy had little impact because too many people are not feeling its benefits.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:To be fair if that poll was done after the vote it's hardly surprising. No one likes to admit to being a complete idiot who's swallowed a quite obvious lie, said lie being promptly dropped by the winning campaign within hours of the vote...

But it is important to see where things like the Economy finish.....

Which let us face it should be the number one driver.....

Results show in my opinion...........Heart ruling Head..........

That's my take............Feel free to disagree.

Genuine question, why do you think that? It's my sincere belief that people place far too much importance on this weird thing called "the Economy".

Just taking a punt, but Leave voter??

Economics governs pretty much every tangible aspect of our lives. People in rUK complain about L/SE but in reality L/SE massively cross subsidised and benefits from much lower investment per capita. Even worse when you factor in the EU RDA funding - which is why you get crass ignorance like Cornwall voting leave and then coming out saying, "but we are still getting our £80m to 2020, right.........??"

Nope, definitely not (see rest of post). I think Leave was an incredibly stupid decision. Just that the Economy was only one of the factors in my decision. My point is a broader one, that talk of a strong Economy had little impact because too many people are not feeling its benefits.

Ah ok. See where you're coming from then. Though to me it just speaks to the general ignorance of the average Brexit voter (not alluding that you are one). People say they're not feeling the benefits, until they stop.......

That's why some change is needed Toppy and if (once again) the campaigns had been honest (seriously why can't it be made an offence to blatantly pool the wool over peoples eyes) and maybe pointed to some of these benefits we all share (as much as people hate to admit it, lower class areas don't feel this 'benefit' that much (I still don't understand how i'm getting worse off every year despite being told i should be happy about it all)

How honest can you be though?

The facts were laid bare about RDA and the regions that receive it (Cornwall being about the biggest from memory). The biggest lie came from that Leave battlebus.

But people chose their stance and ignored contradictory rhetoric.

Despite being told the fact of RDA to Cornwall, the region decried 'fake news' before Trump coined the term, and voted Leave.

Nobody cared about the truth. THAT was the problem.

Thing is Derby the only way they are going to feel it is when they've had it taken away and end up poverty stricken. That's not good in any way shape or form save as a lesson not learned. If you want...go read eureferendum.com it has a lot of complicated stuff on why we're heading towards a complete and utter disaster and how little our politicians actually understand what lies ahead. He has been campaigning to leave the EU for god knows how long just go back and look at last week entries and you'll get a glimpse of the tiniest fraction of the problems that are coming ahead. I think what's going to happen is that our strongest parts of the economy - finance, chemicals, engineering and pharmaceuticals are going to get a bilateral deal ( as they are useful to the EU as well) and anything outside of this is going to suffer years on end until any deal is sorted.

I don't disagree fella's that there's problems ahead, i'm even of the opinion that there could be another chance for another referendum with both sides being made to talk on the truthful things.

I know you don't like it but there would be certain benefits (but do they really outweigh the bad). we're in a messed up place now because instead of coming together as a country, we're all further apart than ever. How to get us back together is a problem i don't have the solution for, you can't suddenly decry brexit and say it's not happening as the people voted and doing so would completely alienate those that (more than likely) don't feel that looked upon to begin with.

I'm a firm believer that instead of moaning about something that's going to happen, we should be listening to others to maximise the benefits and cut down the ills alas, i don't think it's possible with everyone at each others throats and at the end we'll have noone to blame but ourselves. (Especially those that refused to listen to either side and those that just want to be able to say i told you so).

I'm also hopeful it's a kick up the bum to the MP's to remember that they may not like dealing with the 'lower class's' but you do have to listen to them sometimes

That's the problem - people pointing out what problems we have coming to us = remoaner. No one is listening because of the 'will of the people'. People are under the delusion that they are in control and anything to the opposite is treason/moaning. The things that they are expecting go against all reason and time constraints. Yes it would be nice to have Adele sit on my face right this minute but it's not going to happen. All our demands and promises made are unrealistic and are being shot down by the experts. Go and listen to sir Ivans last appearance before the committee then see what Peter lily mp reported to the press.

Derbymanc wrote:

I'm a firm believer that instead of moaning about something that's going to happen, we should be listening to others to maximise the benefits and cut down the ills alas, i don't think it's possible with everyone at each others throats and at the end we'll have noone to blame but ourselves. (Especially those that refused to listen to either side and those that just want to be able to say i told you so).

Don't think it's that simple.

Loss of migrant labour will cause a massive sh*tstorm for this country but, even after all the Brexit furor the admissions of blatant lies etc, when subsequent polling came out the majority of Brexit voters still said they'd take a 'hard Brexit' if it meant no immigrants.

We have Parliament because some people are too ignorant for their own good. This is why.

...But they're intelligent enough to vote for that Parliament in the first place?

Something is wrong with this equation.

Rational intelligent debate now ruined.....

Something is wrong with the equation, Top.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Derbymanc wrote:

I'm a firm believer that instead of moaning about something that's going to happen, we should be listening to others to maximise the benefits and cut down the ills alas, i don't think it's possible with everyone at each others throats and at the end we'll have noone to blame but ourselves. (Especially those that refused to listen to either side and those that just want to be able to say i told you so).

Don't think it's that simple.

Loss of migrant labour will cause a massive sh*tstorm for this country but, even after all the Brexit furor the admissions of blatant lies etc, when subsequent polling came out the majority of Brexit voters still said they'd take a 'hard Brexit' if it meant no immigrants.

We have Parliament because some people are too ignorant for their own good. This is why.

Yeah about that...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-commonwealth-immigration-visas-tory-mp-fast-track-plan-a7575221.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-davis-migrants-brexit-workers-eu-uk-stay-open-immigration-years-latest-a7592616.html

Speaking of equations, very basic maths tells you that if we've been 'flooded' by immigrants yet employment is at record highs and growing AND unemployment near record lows and falling AND we've real wage growth - IMMIGRANT LABOUR ISN'T THE PROBLEM.

It also says alot about people unwilling to commute 50 miles to get a job complaining about people who are willing to upend and travel thousands.

Equation conclusion = Immigrant 'Labour' isn't the main issue?

ShahenshahG wrote:It also says alot about people unwilling to commute 50 miles to get a job complaining about people who are willing to upend and travel thousands.  

Commuting is an expense, isn't it. At least it's an expense for the majority of any population who don't get nice expenses. They have to chew into their salaries every day of every week to actually get to the work that's paying them. So some are subsidised to turn up for work, others are charged for doing so.

No worker in the Nation should get expenses - if you're not willing to eat into your own bank account to go to work, you don't work. Oh that would be popular in Parliament.

SecretFly wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:It also says alot about people unwilling to commute 50 miles to get a job complaining about people who are willing to upend and travel thousands.  

Commuting is an expense, isn't it.  At least it's an expense for the majority of any population who don't get nice expenses.  They have to chew into their salaries every day of every week to actually get to the work that's paying them.  So some are subsidised to turn up for work, others are charged for doing so.

No worker in the Nation should get expenses - if you're not willing to eat into your own bank account to go to work, you don't work.  Oh that would be popular in Parliament.

 

I don't mind their travel expenses I do mind all the other things like mortgages and remortgages.

Yougov Jan 2017....

How well is the govt doing at negotiating Britain's exit ??

Very well 2%
Fairly well 18%

Fairly Badly 31%
Very badly 22%

Don't know 28% !!!!!!!

28% is high and I'm not surprised.....Stitching up Foreign Frankie came before any idea or interest of the implications of what came after....

My guess is a fair few Brexit voters don't know the difference between Hard and Soft Brexit............Or aren't particularly interested.

Bit of both I think Truss,

Oh and Shah and Toppy make really good points as per, the only thing is that imo there's too much vitriol and name calling that happens from both sides which is why it seems to be really difficult to get everyone in a room sat down and talking.

The biggest issue i have about the immigration thing is that for a long long time it was suppressed for anyone to even bring up the issue and since it's been brought out into the open people are using their right to finally have a say on an issue that hits especially hard in some of the poorer areas (As i've stated before it would do a hell of a lot if MP's would visit some of these area's and show that they're not as bad as some would have us believe (they're not as great as others would either though)

Problem with the immigration argument is that the areas with the highest immigration nearly all voted remain, while those with the lowest immigration voted to leave. Can't recall the exact figure, but it was in the ball park of 16-17 out of the 20 areas with highest/lowest immigration voting to remain/leave.

Derbymanc wrote:Bit of both I think Truss,

Oh and Shah and Toppy make really good points as per, the only thing is that imo there's too much vitriol and name calling that happens from both sides which is why it seems to be really difficult to get everyone in a room sat down and talking.

Agreed. Too much vitriol. Too much ego.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Problem with the immigration argument is that the areas with the highest immigration nearly all voted remain, while those with the lowest immigration voted to leave. Can't recall the exact figure, but it was in the ball park of 16-17 out of the 20 areas with highest/lowest immigration voting to remain/leave.

Exactly.

Immigration is concentrated in the cities - all the major cities voted remain other than Sunderland, Birmingham (v close), Southampton and I think one of the northern cities, Sheffield or Leeds.

London has some of the highest concentrations of immigration in the country and kicked out one of the highest overall Remain votes.

I was in a cycle race on vote day round Surrey - sparesely populated countryside with barely a hint of immigration - and there were Leave boards EVERYWHERE. Similarly when visiting my girlfriend's Essex backwater home to see her family it's Leave posters everywhere yet barely a hint of immigration whilst racism/bigotry/general igorance is widespread.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Problem with the immigration argument is that the areas with the highest immigration nearly all voted remain, while those with the lowest immigration voted to leave. Can't recall the exact figure, but it was in the ball park of 16-17 out of the 20 areas with highest/lowest immigration voting to remain/leave.

Exactly.

Immigration is concentrated in the cities - all the major cities voted remain other than Sunderland, Birmingham (v close), Southampton and I think one of the northern cities, Sheffield or Leeds.

London has some of the highest concentrations of immigration in the country and kicked out one of the highest overall Remain votes.

I was in a cycle race on vote day round Surrey - sparesely populated countryside with barely a hint of immigration - and there were Leave boards EVERYWHERE. Similarly when visiting my girlfriend's Essex backwater home to see her family it's Leave posters everywhere yet barely a hint of immigration whilst racism/bigotry/general igorance is widespread.

Fake News!

I can only comment about the little area's around where I live (North Mancs) and whilst not widespread it is concentrated in pockets around, some good, some bad. The fact is that for years noone has been allowed to speak out about it which has allowed a lot of it to fester and unfortunately now it is showing itself in some people as bigotry and racism.

We need a head on approach and some way to try and get these communities back together as Crumpsall was multi race/nationality when i was growing up but there wasn't this degree of hatred (at least not amongst the kids, teens and youths).

I would like to think Brexit is a perfect opportunity for the major party(s) and for others to explain why these communities can be good and be brought together again, although i'm probably dreaming for that one considering the amount of bull that is around (muslims banned easter and all that ballcox)

superflyweight wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Problem with the immigration argument is that the areas with the highest immigration nearly all voted remain, while those with the lowest immigration voted to leave. Can't recall the exact figure, but it was in the ball park of 16-17 out of the 20 areas with highest/lowest immigration voting to remain/leave.

Exactly.

Immigration is concentrated in the cities - all the major cities voted remain other than Sunderland, Birmingham (v close), Southampton and I think one of the northern cities, Sheffield or Leeds.

London has some of the highest concentrations of immigration in the country and kicked out one of the highest overall Remain votes.

I was in a cycle race on vote day round Surrey - sparesely populated countryside with barely a hint of immigration - and there were Leave boards EVERYWHERE. Similarly when visiting my girlfriend's Essex backwater home to see her family it's Leave posters everywhere yet barely a hint of immigration whilst racism/bigotry/general igorance is widespread.

Fake News!

One of the places that voted leave was Boston ... before immigration it was dead and had no jobs now thriving driven by hundress if migrants. Another is Luton.. heavily reliant on the airport, the car industry and the increase in decently paid warehouse jobs due to availability of labour and access to the single market . All sold the lie that they would make it easier for people from majority Asian and Black countries to migrate. There is some support for the latter no doubt about it but it's born from the threat of migrants going elsewhere and companies that rely on them going bust. Including the NHS. This is complete madness. Immigration won't be reduced, we're not going to get a mega awesome deal that will make us rich beyond our dreams. The NHS is actually losing money because the budget increase is over 6 years rather than 5 as it was before and the chancellor has himself said that he's not going to rescue our struggling services because he needs to have a Brexit fund. The positives to Brexit are for the moment nothing as the promises made are Love sacks.

Now in the past few days it has become clear that the deal with Canada isn't so much a benefit to Canada because it has to use two methods of cleaning and checking their beef for example. For the EU - they accept no chemical or anti microbial treatments on the beef and no hormones..the Americans have been crying for years over this issue as they can't sell hormone fed beef here even though scientifically it has been proven safe. As the EU purchases only partial carcasses that means Canada has to treat and sell the rest of the cow or grind it into rind. This is an additional cost...plus it has to be EU marked on a non tamper able packing belt. So businesses in Canada have to follow and be authenticated by the EU to trade in the EU. This is the situation we will find ourselves once we're outside. We don't get to make rules with the others we have to follow them because we need access to them. If you think that the EU will give us a special deal because of our previous membership just think about what you're asking them to do. You're asking them to change their laws agreed over 40 years of refinement to suit us after weve decided to quit at a time when they are most vulnerable ..they aren't going to do it. Just by current laws were going to be cut off ...we could take the EEA option but even that is fraught with peril as Norway doesn't want us there as we'd bring too much attention to what is a pretty sweet deal for them. If the UK ends up there all these benefits without some of the drawbacks will end for them as well.

One of the most repeated claims is that we will be able to make our own deals. What isn't repeated with it is that we will have the freedom to make sh*tter deals than we have now. Yeah there's a line of countries waiting for us to leave so they can sign a deal with us... like vultures circling around a dying animal before its death. Everyone wants to be the first to profit from our destruction . These are the issues that are apparent. Then you go into the technical detail and you realise what a feck up this really is. Check out the IR35 tax changes and how were losing all our experienced IT contractors. Check out how old and unmanageable our IT systems are and then consider the insane amount of paperwork they will have to contend with afterwards.

Imagine if you will if the government suddenly stops recognizing your driving license. What are you going to do? This is the potential problem billions of trade with the EU will face ...unless of course the EU changes it's laws for its loyal friends who've never said a bad word about them. The worst thing is in the words of Dr North, the EUs ruthless efficency in enforcing it's intertrading laws is going to meet its match in British incompetence and inexperience because very few people have had experience with customs for 40 years.

If you can see any benefits of Brexit please let me know what they are. Migration is out, our own regulations are out, better trade deals are out, and even a deal with the US depends highly on the Fast track procedure which allows the president to initiate and negotiate trade deals without the house of Representatives. ..who then ratify or decline the deal. If this fast track procedure isn't renewed in 2018, we will end up negotiating trade deals with two EU''s instead of one. We don't have an empire any more who we can force to buy our stuff and our historic links aren't looked upon so kindly as we think. Africa is or soon will be beholden to China and India wants 80000 visas for their IT contractors and a limitless amount of student visas with prices much lower than they are now. The reason for the vitriol is largely born from the inability of leavers to give a decent reason for leaving that won't jeopardise nearly everyone's jobs. You point out the pitfalls and you get responses like they EU will give us a good deal or we won't buy their stuff..which is Love sacks because most of what we import is good quality food and luxury items. The people who will buy the rhetoric can either not afford to buy it in any case or won't even notice the difference in tariffs. Another benefit suggested is that we will get cheaper food. There is a reason for that...we can buy banana from Latin America for example... where they call it the chemical fruit. We already have a deal with a lot of poor countries called the anything but arms agreement which means we will buy their stuff if it meets the quality threshold but it doesn't work very well because chemical treatment of foods is cheaper than organic methods. So yes we can buy cheaper food but don't expect the same quality or health benefits.

Derbymanc wrote:I can only comment about the little area's around where I live (North Mancs) and whilst not widespread it is concentrated in pockets around, some good, some bad. The fact is that for years noone has been allowed to speak out about it which has allowed a lot of it to fester and unfortunately now it is showing itself in some people as bigotry and racism.

We need a head on approach and some way to try and get these communities back together as Crumpsall was multi race/nationality when i was growing up but there wasn't this degree of hatred (at least not amongst the kids, teens and youths).

I would like to think Brexit is a perfect opportunity for the major party(s) and for others to explain why these communities can be good and be brought together again, although i'm probably dreaming for that one considering the amount of bull that is around (muslims banned easter and all that ballcox)

It's not a scenario you can contrive...........Whilst what you have written is a Utopia we'd all like to live in... you haven't given us any ideas how you would bring Communities back together......So why should anyone else know ??

Fact is they will come together if/when they want to........

Mentioned it before with Corbyn's disastrous leadership victory...............If you didn't keep parachuting London Lawyers to constituencies they have never heard of they might have some idea about what is going on there !!!.....

Hands on MPs that know the local party and its membership would never have let Corbyn on the ballot.......

You need people representing places that know the Community.....That will be a start.

Corbyn scraped onto the ballot first time round with the absolute minimum MP support and second time round, when he had no support bar his ex and his Scouse lap-dog, the Nat Exec Committee gave him a bye.

TopHat24/7 wrote:Corbyn scraped onto the ballot first time round with the absolute minimum MP support and second time round, when he had no support bar his ex and his Scouse lap-dog, the Nat Exec Committee gave him a bye.

He scraped on by being handed support from MPs that didn't want him.......As for the ex and scouse lap dog stuff.......Not interested in that crap..

Rather than ex, would you prefer racist? Misandrist, perhaps??