Brexit

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Funniest thing to happen in years. Have been following the craziness on the FT. Despite the implications if our current crop of retards manage to push it through I can't remember when I've read the news everyday without fail and learned something new. What does everyone think of the possibility that we stay in the single market, retain freedom of movement. Pay into the EU coffers and lose our vote ??

Derbymanc wrote:Can't argue with the second referendum and all that then really. I really do think there should be something to protect the citizens of the UK from being asked to vote on something that then changes near enough straight after. (I hate politics)

Don't think we are going to be offered a second referendum...and I sure as hell don't want to go though all that palaver again.

What is being asked for by Remainers, is another Parliamentary vote on any deal negotiated by the government. Which makes a certain amount of sense to me.

Aye a second referendum result will foster even more problems and in the event of a vote leave win again it will put pressure on may to walk away without a deal which is complete and unmitigated disaster. As it is it looks like we're going into an associate membership which is probably the least crap option after remain. Weird way to gain your sovereignty back but I guess people would rather believe they are in charge rather than actually be in charge.

I meant for Scotland :-).

I think it's far too late for another referendum on the EU but wouldn't mind seeing the options put forward and having them voted on.

Derbymanc wrote:I meant for Scotland :-).

I think it's far too late for another referendum on the EU but wouldn't mind seeing the options put forward and having them voted on.

You not think it is scary that you have changed your mind after hearing all the arguments for and against..............The result was 52-48.

It just shows you how woefully inadequate the politicians are..... that the posters on here are more coherent and on message about Brexit.

Still think you Brexiteers weren't played?

https://www.606v2.com/t65570p350-uk-general-election-2017-thread#3565189

Figures released show that Europeans living in the UK pay 2.5 billion more in tax than they receive in benefits..

A terrible thing immigration..

That was always known, pre referendum - people however just ignored it.

I can't disprove that people didn't know about it....But it wasn't exactly a fact that was hammered home..

I don't blame the voters.....I blame the people making case..

It's hardly a surprise given that the majority of the EU migrants are of working age. Do the figures include costs of education of children of EU migrants (for children born in the UK to migrant parents as well as those who migrated with their family)?

I do wonder what is going to happen to the construction industry (and probably other skilled trades - it's just that my job means I am particularly familiar with that industry) if the Brexit negotiations lead to a reduction / removal of EU migrants - the last several UK governments have promoted University education to such a wide spread of the population (approaching 50%) and a consequent encouragement into 'soft' professions that we don't get many reliable and good British workers in the skilled trades, and so we are very reliant on workers from Eastern Europe in particular.

Whoops, again:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40248366

Good job we have a strong and stable leadership team.

navyblueshorts wrote:Whoops, again:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40248366

Thats only because most of them come from overseas, whether EU or the rest of the world.

We need to start making nursing (and jobs in the NHS in general) more appealing and rewarding and start recruiting inside our own borders.

Easier said than done, I know, but we need to start doing more ourselves right across the board, instead of relying on migrant workers.

My mother was a nurse and a Royal College of Nursing graduate. My dad came from India but still graduated from the Royal College of Surgeons before working in the NHS for the best part of 30 years.

The government needs to make training for medical professions something to aspire to again.

You're right. Let's start by not giving them any kind of pay rise for eight years or so.

Pr4wn wrote:You're right. Let's start by not giving them any kind of pay rise for eight years or so.

Yeah - pay for NHS staff is a joke, considering the jobs they do. Its not a new problem though. My dad and his friends used to joke (gallows humour) about being overworked and underpaid back in the 1980s. He spent some time working in private hospitals in Saudi Arabia and the UAE towards the end of his career and the pay difference was just ridiculous.

To put it into perspective, in the US Registered Nurses earn on average $68,000, which is about £54,000 a year. In the UK, nurses earn on average £23,000 a year, which is less than half. That's a huge difference.

There's no Magic Money Tree(TM) though, Crimey.

Crimey wrote:To put it into perspective, in the US Registered Nurses earn on average $68,000, which is about £54,000 a year. In the UK, nurses earn on average £23,000 a year, which is less than half. That's a huge difference.

Private health care isn't it.

Be great to give them a raise but there are about 300,000 of them.

So to pay them a grand each more a year would cost 300 million pounds, then pension contributions etc.

Also there are over 1 million staff employed on agenda for change contracts in the nhs so any rise would need to go to all if them. Looks good on paper but any decent rise in wages would cost billions and eat up most of the planned budget increase to the nhs.

This is why I suggested no pay rises for eight years. We simply can't afford it with all the tax cuts for the rich and the corporations.

dyrewolfe wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:Whoops, again:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40248366

Thats only because most of them come from overseas, whether EU or the rest of the world.

We need to start making nursing (and jobs in the NHS in general) more appealing and rewarding and start recruiting inside our own borders.

Easier said than done, I know, but we need to start doing more ourselves right across the board, instead of relying on migrant workers.

My mother was a nurse and a Royal College of Nursing graduate. My dad came from India but still graduated from the Royal College of Surgeons before working in the NHS for the best part of 30 years.

The government needs to make training for medical professions something to aspire to again.

The Government have already said that by 2025 they want all new doctors to be British and that any new British doctor then tries to go and work abroad within 5 years of graduating they'll get a nice £250k fine.

Ent wrote:

Crimey wrote:To put it into perspective, in the US Registered Nurses earn on average $68,000, which is about £54,000 a year. In the UK, nurses earn on average £23,000 a year, which is less than half. That's a huge difference.

Private health care isn't it.

Be great to give them a raise but there are about 300,000 of them.

So to pay them a grand each more a year would cost 300 million pounds, then pension contributions etc.

Also there are over 1 million staff employed on agenda for change contracts in the nhs so any rise would need to go to all if them. Looks good on paper but any decent rise in wages would cost billions and eat up most of the planned budget increase to the nhs.

Perfect because I know just the place we can get an extra £350 million from which should cover that....

dyrewolfe wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:Whoops, again:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40248366

Thats only because most of them come from overseas, whether EU or the rest of the world.

We need to start making nursing (and jobs in the NHS in general) more appealing and rewarding and start recruiting inside our own borders.

Easier said than done, I know, but we need to start doing more ourselves right across the board, instead of relying on migrant workers.

My mother was a nurse and a Royal College of Nursing graduate. My dad came from India but still graduated from the Royal College of Surgeons before working in the NHS for the best part of 30 years.

The government needs to make training for medical professions something to aspire to again.

Oh, I'd agree with pretty much all of that. Although, where's the money coming from to train all of these paragons?
My mum's an ex-nurse of ~40 years and when asked after retiring if she'd consider acting as a consultant, told them that she wouldn't go back even if she was paid a King's Ransom. Been downwards for ages and it isn't going to stop.

Still, nice to see that Brexit has made the situation better ...

Crimey wrote:

Ent wrote:

Crimey wrote:To put it into perspective, in the US Registered Nurses earn on average $68,000, which is about £54,000 a year. In the UK, nurses earn on average £23,000 a year, which is less than half. That's a huge difference.

Private health care isn't it.

Be great to give them a raise but there are about 300,000 of them.

So to pay them a grand each more a year would cost 300 million pounds, then pension contributions etc.

Also there are over 1 million staff employed on agenda for change contracts in the nhs so any rise would need to go to all if them. Looks good on paper but any decent rise in wages would cost billions and eat up most of the planned budget increase to the nhs.

Perfect because I know just the place we can get an extra £350 million from which should cover that....

Good one!

In all seriousness though, if and when we leave the EU, it will save us around £8.5bn a year, going from our net contribution last year.

https://fullfact.org/economy/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

I would also add that somehow the NHS needs a major organisational overhaul...or at least an audit to check that money isn't being needlessly wasted on dodgy private contractors like Circle (who managed to plunge my local hospital into huge amounts of debt, before walking away).

I agree that throwing ever-increasing amounts of money at the NHS isn't sustainable, but we should at least be able to pay the frontline medical staff what they're worth.

dyrewolfe wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:You're right. Let's start by not giving them any kind of pay rise for eight years or so.

Yeah - pay for NHS staff is a joke, considering the jobs they do. Its not a new problem though. My dad and his friends used to joke (gallows humour) about being overworked and underpaid back in the 1980s. He spent some time working in private hospitals in Saudi Arabia and the UAE towards the end of his career and the pay difference was just ridiculous.

Overwork is one thing and something serious needs to be done about that, but I'm not sure Consultants are underpaid. How much do we want to pay these people? It's the NHS, not Utopia. Many do private work as well. Nurses are another kettle of fish altogether, but then you've got issues of serious scale with any pay increase. If it's costed and put to the 'public', then go ahead and offer them more - let's see how many of the 'public' want the pay to go up significantly when they get actual, independently verified, costings.

As for pay in UAE and Saudi, of course it's chalk and cheese. I'm sure working privately for their ilk paid handsomely.

navyblueshorts wrote:

dyrewolfe wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:You're right. Let's start by not giving them any kind of pay rise for eight years or so.

Yeah - pay for NHS staff is a joke, considering the jobs they do. Its not a new problem though. My dad and his friends used to joke (gallows humour) about being overworked and underpaid back in the 1980s. He spent some time working in private hospitals in Saudi Arabia and the UAE towards the end of his career and the pay difference was just ridiculous.

Overwork is one thing and something serious needs to be done about that, but I'm not sure Consultants are underpaid. How much do we want to pay these people? It's the NHS, not Utopia. Many do private work as well. Nurses are another kettle of fish altogether, but then you've got issues of serious scale with any pay increase. If it's costed and put to the 'public', then go ahead and offer them more - let's see how many of the 'public' want the pay to go up significantly when they get actual, independently verified, costings.

As for pay in UAE and Saudi, of course it's chalk and cheese. I'm sure working privately for their ilk paid handsomely.

Consultants are about the only people who are well paid for their work (thats also been true since my dad's time). I was talking about nursing staff, surgeons, junior doctors and all the other people who have face-to-face contact with patients every day, who often have to work long hours, under less-than-ideal conditions.

Obviously the pay scale would have to be worked out carefully, to make sure the salary budget didn't get out of control, but I definitely think they deserve more than they are currently getting (and need to be paid more if its to be seen as an attractive career option).

Hero wrote:

dyrewolfe wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:Whoops, again:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40248366

Thats only because most of them come from overseas, whether EU or the rest of the world.

We need to start making nursing (and jobs in the NHS in general) more appealing and rewarding and start recruiting inside our own borders.

Easier said than done, I know, but we need to start doing more ourselves right across the board, instead of relying on migrant workers.

My mother was a nurse and a Royal College of Nursing graduate. My dad came from India but still graduated from the Royal College of Surgeons before working in the NHS for the best part of 30 years.

The government needs to make training for medical professions something to aspire to again.

The Government have already said that by 2025 they want all new doctors to be British and that any new British doctor then tries to go and work abroad within 5 years of graduating they'll get a nice £250k fine.

Now that is laughable. They have finally agreed to release the cap on Medical Schools to train more doctors and, I think, 2017-18 is a massive nationwide increase of ~500. Better than nothing I guess, but the ship has nearly sailed. In addition, are they seriously going to ignore some of the seriously talented foreign students? And trust me, some (not all to be fair) of them are so much better academically than many U.K. med students, it's a joke. Also, if they don't do something alongside to reduce the crapification of being a junior, they aren't going to retain anywhere near 500 per annum. Are they going to ignore highly talented Doctors from overseas?? I can't see it.
Colleague (retired Doctor who's looked at some of this) told me last year that over a career span, only about 30% of qualified Doctors remain in practice. Pretty massive attrition.

dyrewolfe wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

dyrewolfe wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:You're right. Let's start by not giving them any kind of pay rise for eight years or so.

Yeah - pay for NHS staff is a joke, considering the jobs they do. Its not a new problem though. My dad and his friends used to joke (gallows humour) about being overworked and underpaid back in the 1980s. He spent some time working in private hospitals in Saudi Arabia and the UAE towards the end of his career and the pay difference was just ridiculous.

Overwork is one thing and something serious needs to be done about that, but I'm not sure Consultants are underpaid. How much do we want to pay these people? It's the NHS, not Utopia. Many do private work as well. Nurses are another kettle of fish altogether, but then you've got issues of serious scale with any pay increase. If it's costed and put to the 'public', then go ahead and offer them more - let's see how many of the 'public' want the pay to go up significantly when they get actual, independently verified, costings.

As for pay in UAE and Saudi, of course it's chalk and cheese. I'm sure working privately for their ilk paid handsomely.

Consultants are about the only people who are well paid for their work (thats also been true since my dad's time). I was talking about nursing staff, surgeons, junior doctors and all the other people who have face-to-face contact with patients every day, who often have to work long hours, under less-than-ideal conditions.

Obviously the pay scale would have to be worked out carefully, to make sure the salary budget didn't get out of control, but I definitely think they deserve more than they are currently getting (and need to be paid more if its to be seen as an attractive career option).

Agree with that, but as Ent suggests, that's a massive annual pay increase to budget for and doesn't even address anything to do with NHS infrastructure etc.

They're basically going to astronomically hike up the cost for overseas students to study in UK medical schools. Over 50% of my company's business comes from doctors and students wishing to study UK based medical exams so I'm not exactly chuffed over it!

Hero wrote:They're basically going to astronomically hike up the cost for overseas students to study in UK medical schools. Over 50% of my company's business comes from doctors and students wishing to study UK based medical exams so I'm not exactly chuffed over it!

Really? Good luck with that one. If we price them out of our market (w/o enough bodies to fill that gap), more fool us.

Talking of saving money on the NHS, this needs looking at:

http://www.pharmaceutical-journal.com/news-and-analysis/prescription-charge-overhaul-would-raise-1bn-a-year-for-nhs-says-think-tank/20066348.article

90-91% get free prescriptions in England/Wales??? My wife, who's diabetic, gets all her prescriptions f.o.c. even if an item has precisely nothing to do with her diabetes. Insane. Even she thinks it's mad.

Reckon putting in a system complex enough to police that would cost enough to negate any benefits to policing it.

navyblueshorts wrote:

Hero wrote:

dyrewolfe wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:Whoops, again:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40248366

Thats only because most of them come from overseas, whether EU or the rest of the world.

We need to start making nursing (and jobs in the NHS in general) more appealing and rewarding and start recruiting inside our own borders.

Easier said than done, I know, but we need to start doing more ourselves right across the board, instead of relying on migrant workers.

My mother was a nurse and a Royal College of Nursing graduate. My dad came from India but still graduated from the Royal College of Surgeons before working in the NHS for the best part of 30 years.

The government needs to make training for medical professions something to aspire to again.

The Government have already said that by 2025 they want all new doctors to be British and that any new British doctor then tries to go and work abroad within 5 years of graduating they'll get a nice £250k fine.

Now that is laughable. They have finally agreed to release the cap on Medical Schools to train more doctors and, I think, 2017-18 is a massive nationwide increase of ~500. Better than nothing I guess, but the ship has nearly sailed. In addition, are they seriously going to ignore some of the seriously talented foreign students? And trust me, some (not all to be fair) of them are so much better academically than many U.K. med students, it's a joke. Also, if they don't do something alongside to reduce the crapification of being a junior, they aren't going to retain anywhere near 500 per annum.  Are they going to ignore highly talented Doctors from overseas?? I can't see it.
Colleague (retired Doctor who's looked at some of this) told me last year that over a career span, only about 30% of qualified Doctors remain in practice. Pretty massive attrition.

Applications to medical school have been falling since 2014 and they went to clearing 2 years ago.

Foreign students are already charged a huge amount and subsidise the local students, they also tend to train here and provide service before returning to their country of origin to take up consultant jobs/equivalent which is actually pretty useful in certain situations.

I think we also have to realise (and accept?) that not everyone can be a Doctor and not everyone who graduates from medical school will complete training or become a consultant/GP. The idea we can just take in more people and they will all have the right blend of intelligence, commitment and sacrifice to make it is just naive in the extreme.

The fine thing is ridiculous.

ShahenshahG wrote:Reckon putting in a system complex enough to police that would cost enough to negate any benefits to policing it.

It's ridiculous and it needs sorting out. Another one I liked was my wife's nan, who had paracetamol as a prescription item. She refused to spend her own money buying it over the counter (even though it's maybe 30p/16 tablets) and insisted it was purchased as the prescribed item at >£8 a pop. Bonkers.

Has anyone thought about the massive black hole that needs filling by EU-subsidised small companies that will no longer receive those subsidies that are keeping them afloat. I know of such businesses who have been given no indication by those in power of what happens now.

Nope. Because we've taken back control.

navyblueshorts wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:Reckon putting in a system complex enough to police that would cost enough to negate any benefits to policing it.

It's ridiculous and it needs sorting out. Another one I liked was my wife's nan, who had paracetamol as a prescription item. She refused to spend her own money buying it over the counter (even though it's maybe 30p/16 tablets) and insisted it was purchased as the prescribed item at >£8 a pop. Bonkers.

Agreed - perhaps making it legally necessary for the pharmacy to go for the cheaper option or remove paracetamols from the prescription altogether?

CaledonianCraig wrote:Has anyone thought about the massive black hole that needs filling by EU-subsidised small companies that will no longer receive those subsidies that are keeping them afloat. I know of such businesses who have been given no indication by those in power of what happens now.

No-one knows what happens now because no-one has a Scooby....

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Has anyone thought about the massive black hole that needs filling by EU-subsidised small companies that will no longer receive those subsidies that are keeping them afloat. I know of such businesses who have been given no indication by those in power of what happens now.

No-one knows what happens now because no-one has a Scooby....

Granted. That black hole is going to have to be filled though. I suppose it would be the same if the National Lottery ended. What would happen to these lottery-funded enterprises.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Has anyone thought about the massive black hole that needs filling by EU-subsidised small companies that will no longer receive those subsidies that are keeping them afloat. I know of such businesses who have been given no indication by those in power of what happens now.

No-one knows what happens now because no-one has a Scooby....

Granted. That black hole is going to have to be filled though. I suppose it would be the same if the National Lottery ended. What would happen to these lottery-funded enterprises.

Does it? How? On paper you'd say such holes should be filled, but who's paying? Where's the money coming from?
Cornwall? Wales? Any farmer that gets CAP subsidies? The list goes on...

Going well so far I see...

One day in and Davis has already fluffed his lines by mistakenly attributing a quote to Churchill when Churchill probably didn't say it.

Also, the UK have conceded on wanting to run trade talks at the same time as settling the divorce bill. The latter will have to come first as the EU has insisted all along.

Day 1 and Davis has already bent over and taken a spicy one from the EU.

Strong and Stable... Strong and Stable... Strong and Stable...

This comment I read online is just too good:

So, let’s recap. Having just humiliated the Tory party and pointlessly thrown away their majority, having shredded her own authority and made herself a laughing stock, and having failed to reach a deal with the DUP, Tory spokeswoman Theresa May is all set to lead the UK into the most complex negotiation of our lifetimes.

Just this week, the UK Brexit team caved in and agreed to settle the divorce bill before anything else can happen. All their tough talk over the last year evaporated at the first hurdle. And that’s just the start, because the UK holds no cards whatsoever. The EU27 will dictate every aspect of the process, to the bitter end.

Having spent the past 30 years spitting venom at the EU, the Brexiters are now saying ‘hey, why does this process have to be adversarial? It could be a win-win’. Er, no. No it can’t. No one can win from Brexit, but the UK will lose by far the most. The jingoistic fantasies from last summer are about to meet cold, hard reality.

We were told as much before the referendum by Theresa May, John Major, Tony Blair and David Cameron, among many others. They all said publicly that Brexit was a stupid idea. But that was all a metropolitan conspiracy all along, right? They were all just worried about their Polish butlers being deported, surely? No?

The reckless, incompetent Tory ideologues are reducing the UK to a punchline, like Italy under Berlusconi or the US under Trump. There’s no end to the humiliations they’ll inflict on the country in pursuit of their mad delusions. And this from the people who have the audacity to wrap themselves in the flag and call themselves patriots.

Brexit has become a religion - an unwavering faith immune to facts.

Survation...

If you had a vote today on staying in or leaving the EU.

Remain 54
Leave 46

Seems the public is changing its mind on Europe...........Well beyond the margin of error....

Seem to spend much of the time talking to myself on here these days (Story of my life )

Back to Brexit a survey shows how unprepared British business is for Brexit...Only 1 in 10 are bothering to implement contingency plans..

Sleepwalking off the cliff..Thou art thinketh..

It's the typical mindset, mate. Especially from the English. The arrogance that they're better than foreigners and that the UK is bulletproof.

The UK has become a total joke, internationally.

Not quite prawn. It's mostly to do with what exactly are they supposed to do? They can't cut jobs beforehand, they can't prepare for alternate supplier because it's not guaranteed that other nations will allow us to to keep the EU agreements for now. They can't even speak out individually, for fear of abuse and boycotts. From what I can understand it's probably going to be that either there is a transition in which case business as usual and a concrete set of rules regulations and supply routes they can adhere to and plan for or hard Brexit in which case you sack a significant chunk of your workforce to offset your losses. I think the few that can afford to pre empt have already decided to run away to the continent, Ireland or the US.

Bank of America are shifting their European head office from the City to Dublin, still undecided how many jobs are shifting

Morgan Stanley are shifting out of London too.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:Bank of America are shifting their European head office from the City to Dublin, still undecided how many jobs are shifting

There EU head office much like Morgan Stanley they'll still have offices in London but not exactly viable to have an EU office in a non EU country, bit of a sensationalist way of putting it.

Either way, there will be job cuts.