6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
+62
maestegmafia
sensisball
EnglishReign
SimonofSurrey
kingelderfield
Hoonercat
Recwatcher16
Exiledinborders
The Great Aukster
Shifty
Allty
Rory_Gallagher
Steffan
wisden
GunsGermsV2
wolfball
nathan
eirebilly
ChequeredJersey
RDW
dummy_half
mid_gen
bedfordwelsh
thomh
Barney McGrew did it
tazfalklands
formerly known as Sam
munkian
Hammersmith harrier
carpet baboon
doctor_grey
Fluxy
Brad71090
Cumbrian
BigTrevsbigmac
Gwlad
WELL-PAST-IT
B91212
hugehandoff
king_carlos
cascough
Rugby Fan
Poorfour
Sgt_Pooly
Geordie
nlpnlp
lostinwales
Gooseberry
Scottrf
robbo277
No 7&1/2
propdavid_london
LondonTiger
TightHEAD
BamBam
majesticimperialman
Breadvan
whocares
Luckless Pedestrian
funnyExiledScot
beshocked
George Carlin
66 posters
The v2 Forum :: Sport :: Rugby Union :: International
Page 8 of 10
Page 8 of 10 • 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
First topic message reminder :
ENGLAND v FRANCE
4 February 2017
KO: 16:50
Twickenham, London
Live on ITV, FR2, RTE, DMAX, BBC (H)
Referee: Angus Gardner (Australia)
Touch judges: Glen Jackson (New Zealand) & Marius van der Westhuizen (South Africa)
TMO: Peter Fitzgibbon (Ireland)
A. Head to Head
102 Played 102
56 Won 39
7 Drawn 7
39 Lost 56
1623 Points 1290
B. Recent Form
19 March 2016
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
21 – 31 to England
22 August 2015
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
25 – 20 to France
15 August 2015
Twickenham, London
19 – 14 to England
21 March 2015
Twickenham, London
55 – 35 to England
1 February 2014
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
26 – 24 to France
C. Teams
ENGLAND
15-Mike Brown; 14-Jonny May, 13-Jonathan Joseph, 12-Owen Farrell, 11-Elliot Daly; 10-George Ford, 9-Ben Youngs; 1-Joe Marler, 2-Dylan Hartley (captain), 3-Dan Cole, 4-Joe Launchbury, 5-Courtney Lawes, 6-Maro Itoje, 7-Tom Wood, 8-Nathan Hughes
Replacements: 16-Jamie George, 17-Matt Mullan, 18-Kyle Sinckler 19-Teimana Harrison, 20-James Haskell, 21-Danny Care, 22-Ben Te'o, 23-Jack Nowell
FRANCE
15-Scott Spedding; 14-Noa Nakaitaci, 13-Remi Lamerat, 12-Gael Fickou, 11-Virimi Vakatawa; 10-Camille Lopez, 9-Baptiste Serin; 1-Cyril Baille, 2-Guilhem Guirado (captain), 3-Uini Atonio, 4-Sebastien Vahaamahina, 5-Yoann Maestri, 6-Damien Chouly, 7-Kevin Gourdon, 8-Louis Picamoles
Replacements: 16-Clement Maynadier, 17-Rabah Slimani, 18-Xavier Chiocci, 19-Arthur Iturria, 20-Loann Goujon, 21-Maxime Machenaud, 22-Jean Marc Doussain, 23-Yoann Huget
ENGLAND v FRANCE
4 February 2017
KO: 16:50
Twickenham, London
Live on ITV, FR2, RTE, DMAX, BBC (H)
Referee: Angus Gardner (Australia)
Touch judges: Glen Jackson (New Zealand) & Marius van der Westhuizen (South Africa)
TMO: Peter Fitzgibbon (Ireland)
A. Head to Head
102 Played 102
56 Won 39
7 Drawn 7
39 Lost 56
1623 Points 1290
B. Recent Form
19 March 2016
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
21 – 31 to England
22 August 2015
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
25 – 20 to France
15 August 2015
Twickenham, London
19 – 14 to England
21 March 2015
Twickenham, London
55 – 35 to England
1 February 2014
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
26 – 24 to France
C. Teams
ENGLAND
15-Mike Brown; 14-Jonny May, 13-Jonathan Joseph, 12-Owen Farrell, 11-Elliot Daly; 10-George Ford, 9-Ben Youngs; 1-Joe Marler, 2-Dylan Hartley (captain), 3-Dan Cole, 4-Joe Launchbury, 5-Courtney Lawes, 6-Maro Itoje, 7-Tom Wood, 8-Nathan Hughes
Replacements: 16-Jamie George, 17-Matt Mullan, 18-Kyle Sinckler 19-Teimana Harrison, 20-James Haskell, 21-Danny Care, 22-Ben Te'o, 23-Jack Nowell
FRANCE
15-Scott Spedding; 14-Noa Nakaitaci, 13-Remi Lamerat, 12-Gael Fickou, 11-Virimi Vakatawa; 10-Camille Lopez, 9-Baptiste Serin; 1-Cyril Baille, 2-Guilhem Guirado (captain), 3-Uini Atonio, 4-Sebastien Vahaamahina, 5-Yoann Maestri, 6-Damien Chouly, 7-Kevin Gourdon, 8-Louis Picamoles
Replacements: 16-Clement Maynadier, 17-Rabah Slimani, 18-Xavier Chiocci, 19-Arthur Iturria, 20-Loann Goujon, 21-Maxime Machenaud, 22-Jean Marc Doussain, 23-Yoann Huget
Last edited by George Carlin on Sat 04 Feb 2017, 5:09 am; edited 2 times in total
George Carlin- Admin
- Posts : 15780
Join date : 2011-06-23
Location : KSA
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
I still don't get why France took off Serin, he was perfectly utilising the good ball they had early on.
Youngs was slow with both good and bad ball, though his ball was more mixed than Care or Serin had. It was an off game, but it was an off game for everyone tbh
Youngs was slow with both good and bad ball, though his ball was more mixed than Care or Serin had. It was an off game, but it was an off game for everyone tbh
ChequeredJersey- Posts : 18707
Join date : 2011-12-23
Age : 35
Location : London, UK
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
Bad decision making and a poor bench translate into yet another close defeat. Shame because that England team looked ordinary and overhyped and I was relieved they didn't dominate the line-outs as everyone and his dog was expecting. Not going to have opportunities like this for some time to win there.
whocares- Posts : 4270
Join date : 2011-04-14
Age : 47
Location : France - paris area
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
Can we now agree that England were missing Robshaw and Itoje is not (for now at least) an international 6?
Poorfour- Posts : 6407
Join date : 2011-10-01
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
I thought Itoje was solid. He got a good turnover, carried solidly and tackled hard as always. His line-out work was good throughout and excellent once George came on. The side definitely missed Robshaw but Itoje is probably still the best replacement.
Haskell really improved the physicality and aggression at the breakdown when he came on.
I thought Mullan proved a few people who thought he'd lack impact from the bench wrong.
Jamie George once again looked our better hooker when he came on.
Haskell really improved the physicality and aggression at the breakdown when he came on.
I thought Mullan proved a few people who thought he'd lack impact from the bench wrong.
Jamie George once again looked our better hooker when he came on.
king_carlos- Posts : 12735
Join date : 2011-05-31
Location : Ankh-Morpork
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
TightHEAD wrote:He was slow all game from the first minute to his last
Youngs is not the only slow one round here!
Says the guy who uses SCW as a point of reference.
Gwlad- Posts : 4224
Join date : 2014-12-04
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
king_carlos wrote:I thought Itoje was solid. He got a good turnover, carried solidly and tackled hard as always. His line-out work was good throughout and excellent once George came on. The side definitely missed Robshaw but Itoje is probably still the best replacement.
Haskell really improved the physicality and aggression at the breakdown when he came on.
I thought Mullan proved a few people who thought he'd lack impact from the bench wrong.
Jamie George once again looked our better hooker when he came on.
Would Hartley be the starting hooker for England if he wasn't the captain?
The more I see of George, the more I think he is the better hooker and better suited to the England team.
eirebilly- Posts : 24807
Join date : 2011-02-09
Age : 53
Location : Milan
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
TightHEAD wrote:He was slow all game from the first minute to his last
Youngs is not the only slow one round here!
Stop being an idiot....
Give some reasoning behind your thoughts, discuss it. Don't insult others.
nathan- Posts : 11033
Join date : 2011-06-14
Location : Leicestershire
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
eirebilly wrote:king_carlos wrote:I thought Itoje was solid. He got a good turnover, carried solidly and tackled hard as always. His line-out work was good throughout and excellent once George came on. The side definitely missed Robshaw but Itoje is probably still the best replacement.
Haskell really improved the physicality and aggression at the breakdown when he came on.
I thought Mullan proved a few people who thought he'd lack impact from the bench wrong.
Jamie George once again looked our better hooker when he came on.
Would Hartley be the starting hooker for England if he wasn't the captain?
The more I see of George, the more I think he is the better hooker and better suited to the England team.
No and like Wales i think you'll see Harltey get shorter shifts until there is a loss…fact is that George is a better player and if England perform this way again or lose, it may signal the loss of his captaincy. Other things we learned, Haskell is a must at 6 or 7, Nowell should start. Itoje ponderous in the back row and English line out a shambles at times. Ford simply cannot function behind a poor pack and Farrell should be starting at 10 until the likes of Billy and Kruis are back in the side.
Gwlad- Posts : 4224
Join date : 2014-12-04
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
Very debatable. Especially when Hartley has missed so much rugby.eirebilly wrote:king_carlos wrote:I thought Itoje was solid. He got a good turnover, carried solidly and tackled hard as always. His line-out work was good throughout and excellent once George came on. The side definitely missed Robshaw but Itoje is probably still the best replacement.
Haskell really improved the physicality and aggression at the breakdown when he came on.
I thought Mullan proved a few people who thought he'd lack impact from the bench wrong.
Jamie George once again looked our better hooker when he came on.
Would Hartley be the starting hooker for England if he wasn't the captain?
The more I see of George, the more I think he is the better hooker and better suited to the England team.
George is the better ball carrier, as solid at the line-out (he was better today) and seems to be stronger scrummager judging by our scrum regularly improving when he comes on.
Hartley is better in defensive rucks though I think. He hits them with real aggression, something that England are often poor at.
If he makes the Lions tour I wouldn't be surprised for him to overtake Hartley and other more established hookers.
king_carlos- Posts : 12735
Join date : 2011-05-31
Location : Ankh-Morpork
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
nathan wrote:TightHEAD wrote:He was slow all game from the first minute to his last
Youngs is not the only slow one round here!
Stop being an idiot....
Give some reasoning behind your thoughts, discuss it. Don't insult others.
Attack the post not the poster.
Reasoning has already been given, England look slow and off the pace all game, Youngs goes off Care comes on ,England start looking threatning due to quicker ball and then score a try.
TightHEAD- Posts : 6192
Join date : 2014-09-25
Age : 62
Location : Brexit Island.
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
I really like George king_carlos, think he suits the way England play far better than Hartley. This is not to say that Hartley is a bad player, he is not at all, more that I think the England approach suits George better than him.
eirebilly- Posts : 24807
Join date : 2011-02-09
Age : 53
Location : Milan
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
The youngs care thing has gone on for years. Whichever is the starter gets slagged for being slow or crabbing ...the bench option comes on with the specific remit of playing fast and loose as the game breaks open and everyone thinks they are amazing.
Gooseberry- Posts : 8384
Join date : 2015-02-11
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
Christ, that was awful. All I can say is at least we won and we can't possibly be that bad again.
Cumbrian- Posts : 5605
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 41
Location : Bath
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
I have a new name for EJ, pinched from another object of derision on this board. Eddie "Squeaky" Jones. That is the third or forth time England have won a game they should have lost in the last 10 minutes.
What the game showed is that Hughes is no replacement for Billy in the carrying department, Itoje is not an international 6, lots of industry, did nothing really wrong, just lacked that half a yard of pace to get to the breakdown early enough to influence it a great deal, spent too much time getting there after the French backrow and couldn't move them away.
Wood tackled and tackled but was not there to make the hard yards, tried to do the Robshaw role of clearing up the sh!t, and there was a lot of that, I cannot remember so much ball being kicked around the edges of the breakdown by forwards joining the ruck without looking to see where the ball was.
Had to agree that George looked better than Harley when he came on, but this was against a tired France and also when the other replacements came on and gave England the "go forward". I wouldn't mind seeing him start and see if h can do the same from the start. His defensive game is not in the same league as Hartley's however.
Haskell has to start with Wood at 6 or possibly Harrison, he will give more go forward than Wood but at the expense of tackling. Haskells impact was immediate, the French could not wrap him up and we had front foot ball straight away and the backs exploited it well.
Youngs I thought was ponderous, with both the slow ball and what little quick ball he had, the only time he attempted a break is after a penalty had been awarded. Not the player of the AIs.
As has been shown with Bath, Ford cannot play behind a retreating pack, he his a front foot player and just disappears when he hasn't got that extra half second.
Marler looked very strong for someone just recovering from a broken leg, kept that monster (some 7 stone heavier) nicely contained in the scrum, I doubt Mako could have done that.
Difficult to really say much about the backs, they defended well, but with Ford missing nothing was happening. Why was Farrell taking the kick offs?
Best three players on the pitch were French and we still won so hey hey roll on Wales. We will have to improve for them we do not usually win games they dominate.
Not sure about Daly or Nowell, Daly has more pace, a left footer and the long range boot. Nowell has more of everything else.
For next week, Itoje back to lock, Haskell to start, Care to start and E(S)J to be ready to eject Ford quickly if he disappears again.
What the game showed is that Hughes is no replacement for Billy in the carrying department, Itoje is not an international 6, lots of industry, did nothing really wrong, just lacked that half a yard of pace to get to the breakdown early enough to influence it a great deal, spent too much time getting there after the French backrow and couldn't move them away.
Wood tackled and tackled but was not there to make the hard yards, tried to do the Robshaw role of clearing up the sh!t, and there was a lot of that, I cannot remember so much ball being kicked around the edges of the breakdown by forwards joining the ruck without looking to see where the ball was.
Had to agree that George looked better than Harley when he came on, but this was against a tired France and also when the other replacements came on and gave England the "go forward". I wouldn't mind seeing him start and see if h can do the same from the start. His defensive game is not in the same league as Hartley's however.
Haskell has to start with Wood at 6 or possibly Harrison, he will give more go forward than Wood but at the expense of tackling. Haskells impact was immediate, the French could not wrap him up and we had front foot ball straight away and the backs exploited it well.
Youngs I thought was ponderous, with both the slow ball and what little quick ball he had, the only time he attempted a break is after a penalty had been awarded. Not the player of the AIs.
As has been shown with Bath, Ford cannot play behind a retreating pack, he his a front foot player and just disappears when he hasn't got that extra half second.
Marler looked very strong for someone just recovering from a broken leg, kept that monster (some 7 stone heavier) nicely contained in the scrum, I doubt Mako could have done that.
Difficult to really say much about the backs, they defended well, but with Ford missing nothing was happening. Why was Farrell taking the kick offs?
Best three players on the pitch were French and we still won so hey hey roll on Wales. We will have to improve for them we do not usually win games they dominate.
Not sure about Daly or Nowell, Daly has more pace, a left footer and the long range boot. Nowell has more of everything else.
For next week, Itoje back to lock, Haskell to start, Care to start and E(S)J to be ready to eject Ford quickly if he disappears again.
WELL-PAST-IT- Posts : 3739
Join date : 2011-06-01
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
Well put, Gooseberry.Gooseberry wrote:The youngs care thing has gone on for years. Whichever is the starter gets slagged for being slow or crabbing ...the bench option comes on with the specific remit of playing fast and loose as the game breaks open and everyone thinks they are amazing.
Youngs has routinely come out on top of their battle for the 9 shirt (50 England starts to Care's 30) for one main reason. Youngs kicking is the much better of the two.
Care plays best when the attack runs off him more than 10. With Ford playing poorly and Farrell throwing a few passes behind runners the game was set for Care to take some more control from 9. He played well and put good pressure on the tiring French forwards.
Youngs had a much poorer game than his autumn performances, as did Ford. The French pack were starving England of any quick ball with their more aggressive ruck work.
king_carlos- Posts : 12735
Join date : 2011-05-31
Location : Ankh-Morpork
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
There wasn't much between the sides overall. The french ran the ball a lot more and looked better for it, but didn't actually get a lot out of the England defense in the end. The French try was a mess. For all the confusion and chaos in the England ranks they were more dangerous on the very rare attacks they had.
It was a messy scrappy game very high on tension - very typical 6N fare for this time of year.
The ref was - interesting. But to be fair he was difficult for both teams. I do think the treatment of 'high' tackles is going to take some getting used to (and that is something that very definitely affected both teams) - and the Wood penalty after the ball was out of the ruck was just bizarre.
For England we do miss Billy. Hughes is a very decent player although he did seem to drift in and out of the game, but he isn't Billy, not by a long shot. Itoje was OK when we are used to him being brilliant. Wood was very busy but the combination of the two was less than what Robshaw offers. I'd also argue there was a lack of leadership or cohesion in the forwards also. That will improve but suspect that is also something that Robshaw contributes a great deal to.
It was a messy scrappy game very high on tension - very typical 6N fare for this time of year.
The ref was - interesting. But to be fair he was difficult for both teams. I do think the treatment of 'high' tackles is going to take some getting used to (and that is something that very definitely affected both teams) - and the Wood penalty after the ball was out of the ruck was just bizarre.
For England we do miss Billy. Hughes is a very decent player although he did seem to drift in and out of the game, but he isn't Billy, not by a long shot. Itoje was OK when we are used to him being brilliant. Wood was very busy but the combination of the two was less than what Robshaw offers. I'd also argue there was a lack of leadership or cohesion in the forwards also. That will improve but suspect that is also something that Robshaw contributes a great deal to.
lostinwales- lostinwales
- Posts : 13355
Join date : 2011-06-09
Location : Out of Wales :)
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
TightHEAD wrote:nathan wrote:TightHEAD wrote:He was slow all game from the first minute to his last
Youngs is not the only slow one round here!
Stop being an idiot....
Give some reasoning behind your thoughts, discuss it. Don't insult others.
Attack the post not the poster.
Reasoning has already been given, England look slow and off the pace all game, Youngs goes off Care comes on ,England start looking threatning due to quicker ball and then score a try.
Take your own advice, you've just called me slow.
nathan- Posts : 11033
Join date : 2011-06-14
Location : Leicestershire
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
Pretty bad performance all around. We got away with it again as we've done throughout jones tenure so fair play. Well need to seriously up our game next week or we'll be pummeled.
No 7&1/2- Posts : 31374
Join date : 2012-10-20
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
That kick from Daly was a thing of beauty though. Not that its normal to think well of kicks
lostinwales- lostinwales
- Posts : 13355
Join date : 2011-06-09
Location : Out of Wales :)
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
I said all along that this first game for Englamnd against France was going to be a tough game. But i never thought it would be this tough.
England was well off the pace for most of the game. How the hell did England win that Game? That is a big question, The subs that came on made a big, big, difference to the England game plan.
There is hell a lot of work to do, IF England are going to( Win the 6ns ) Grand Slam at this moment i would not think so.
England was well off the pace for most of the game. How the hell did England win that Game? That is a big question, The subs that came on made a big, big, difference to the England game plan.
There is hell a lot of work to do, IF England are going to( Win the 6ns ) Grand Slam at this moment i would not think so.
majesticimperialman- Posts : 6170
Join date : 2011-02-11
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
lostinwales wrote:That kick from Daly was a thing of beauty though. Not that its normal to think well of kicks
Daly looked to be the one player who had the X factor, and should be now nailed on.
The Great Aukster- Posts : 5246
Join date : 2011-06-09
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
nathan wrote:TightHEAD wrote:nathan wrote:TightHEAD wrote:He was slow all game from the first minute to his last
Youngs is not the only slow one round here!
Stop being an idiot....
Give some reasoning behind your thoughts, discuss it. Don't insult others.
Attack the post not the poster.
Reasoning has already been given, England look slow and off the pace all game, Youngs goes off Care comes on ,England start looking threatning due to quicker ball and then score a try.
Take your own advice, you've just called me slow.
No I didn't, where did I say that?
You called me an idiot, despite the fact that three very well respected pundits in BOD, Wilko and SCW saying the same thing on itv 10 mins after I said it. Care is the better player imho, Youngs is off the pace and looked awful but then that isn't a surprise seeing the dreadful season he is having.
TightHEAD- Posts : 6192
Join date : 2014-09-25
Age : 62
Location : Brexit Island.
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
I think we might just be a Robshaw, Billy (and possibly Kruis) short of a GS this year. Still, the win is everything I guess.
Barney McGrew did it- Posts : 1604
Join date : 2012-02-23
Location : Trumpton
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
Well, it's said that the sign of a great team is that they win when playing badly, and that certainly sums the match up.
A couple of moments of fantastic goal line defence (Lawes planting the scrum half being the most prominent, but also lots of good cover tackling from Brown and the wingers), and generally pretty good discipline kept us in it and the replacements made the difference.
As others have said, Itoje at 6 was no better than ordinary. I thought he looked happier and certainly was more involved in the last 15 once he'd moved back to the 2nd row.
Hughes was a disappointment - looked like we had Nick Easter back at 8: power from static positions but not dynamic in the way of Billy V or Picamoles (who was rightly the ITV motm).
Can certainly see Haskell being brought back for the next game, with Itoje back into the 2nd row. Otherwise,, Nowell probably should get the nod for one wing, but perhaps at the expense of May rather than Daly?
The scrum half debate will go on - as others have said, for about the last 5 years things have followed the same pattern with the starter looking slow and stodgy compared with the replacement.
Oh, and anyone want to suggest Robshaw isn't a very useful player?
A couple of moments of fantastic goal line defence (Lawes planting the scrum half being the most prominent, but also lots of good cover tackling from Brown and the wingers), and generally pretty good discipline kept us in it and the replacements made the difference.
As others have said, Itoje at 6 was no better than ordinary. I thought he looked happier and certainly was more involved in the last 15 once he'd moved back to the 2nd row.
Hughes was a disappointment - looked like we had Nick Easter back at 8: power from static positions but not dynamic in the way of Billy V or Picamoles (who was rightly the ITV motm).
Can certainly see Haskell being brought back for the next game, with Itoje back into the 2nd row. Otherwise,, Nowell probably should get the nod for one wing, but perhaps at the expense of May rather than Daly?
The scrum half debate will go on - as others have said, for about the last 5 years things have followed the same pattern with the starter looking slow and stodgy compared with the replacement.
Oh, and anyone want to suggest Robshaw isn't a very useful player?
dummy_half- Posts : 6483
Join date : 2011-03-11
Age : 52
Location : East Hertfordshire
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
majesticimperialman wrote:I said all along that this first game for Englamnd against France was going to be a tough game. But i never thought it would be this tough.
England was well off the pace for most of the game. How the hell did England win that Game? That is a big question, The subs that came on made a big, big, difference to the England game plan.
There is hell a lot of work to do, IF England are going to( Win the 6ns ) Grand Slam at this moment i would not think so.
You don't have to be the best - just better than the other guy.
France made chances and could not score apart from the one which was a mess. We made fewer chances but did get the Te'o score. (And Daly was very close too). Our defense was better than the French attack, but things were so close that we were only one stupidly good ridiculously long penalty kick better.
We will be better in the next game.
lostinwales- lostinwales
- Posts : 13355
Join date : 2011-06-09
Location : Out of Wales :)
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
It'd be funny if Jones is thinking of dropping Ford to the bench in favour of a Farrell/Teo midfield. That's pretty much what Lancaster did against Wales in the World Cup when he used Burgess.
Rugby Fan- Moderator
- Posts : 8155
Join date : 2012-09-14
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
I didn't manage to watch this one yet.
Were England really that bad or were the French strong and much improved? Or both?
Perhaps based on the matches in the final year of last year's tournament, I think that both England and Ireland fans were expecting healthy victories.
Isn't this a chance to find out more about your squads?
Can I also ask how Daly played because I really rate him.
Were England really that bad or were the French strong and much improved? Or both?
Perhaps based on the matches in the final year of last year's tournament, I think that both England and Ireland fans were expecting healthy victories.
Isn't this a chance to find out more about your squads?
Can I also ask how Daly played because I really rate him.
George Carlin- Admin
- Posts : 15780
Join date : 2011-06-23
Location : KSA
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
Yeah it's noticeable how we all used to blame Farell for slowing England down and used to call for him to be dropped.
But there's no question he's won Jones over now, not just for his play but his attitude too. I'd not be against the change although it has it potential dangers...if nothing else in taking a kicking option out. And he's offering a way to get George as the starter if Hartley continues to be the second best hooker.
In defence of Ford it was the pair of them that struggled in defence and they notably missed the protection they get from Robshaw.
Id go back to some of the analysis that was done ahead of the game in relation to the way England defend and the new tackle rules as a well. Some of Frances ability to run through them came from this; England spreading wider than they would have done previously and finding it difficult to tackle the big French guys legally.
Getting slowed down in attack by a pack that physical as well. .is it any great shock?
The May card was pretty unfortunate and a rough if technically correct call...to be fair they got away with one later in the game which was much more like the sort of tackle that the law is intended to stop. But you have to forgive England for having the stuffing knocked out of them by that.
When in think back to some of the God awful performances England have put in first game of the six nations over recent years and still won ( Lancaster first game ...) this doesn't stack up there as remarkable victories or poor games in my mind. France are a good side, sure they could and should have won and yes England need to improve but I'm not losing faith in a side that's won 15 straight games just yet...albeit some by the skin of their teeth.
But there's no question he's won Jones over now, not just for his play but his attitude too. I'd not be against the change although it has it potential dangers...if nothing else in taking a kicking option out. And he's offering a way to get George as the starter if Hartley continues to be the second best hooker.
In defence of Ford it was the pair of them that struggled in defence and they notably missed the protection they get from Robshaw.
Id go back to some of the analysis that was done ahead of the game in relation to the way England defend and the new tackle rules as a well. Some of Frances ability to run through them came from this; England spreading wider than they would have done previously and finding it difficult to tackle the big French guys legally.
Getting slowed down in attack by a pack that physical as well. .is it any great shock?
The May card was pretty unfortunate and a rough if technically correct call...to be fair they got away with one later in the game which was much more like the sort of tackle that the law is intended to stop. But you have to forgive England for having the stuffing knocked out of them by that.
When in think back to some of the God awful performances England have put in first game of the six nations over recent years and still won ( Lancaster first game ...) this doesn't stack up there as remarkable victories or poor games in my mind. France are a good side, sure they could and should have won and yes England need to improve but I'm not losing faith in a side that's won 15 straight games just yet...albeit some by the skin of their teeth.
Gooseberry- Posts : 8384
Join date : 2015-02-11
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
George Carlin wrote:I didn't manage to watch this one yet.
Were England really that bad or were the French strong and much improved? Or both?
Perhaps based on the matches in the final year of last year's tournament, I think that both England and Ireland fans were expecting healthy victories.
Isn't this a chance to find out more about your squads?
Can I also ask how Daly played because I really rate him.
England were poor and France have certainly improved, I guess we kind of met in middle somewhere. We dropped the ball and knocked on way too much, stopping us getting any momentum early on. Set piece went quite well but we slipped off tackles for fun.
Daly was ok, nothing amazing. Had a good chance for a try but put his feet in touch when I'd have expected a good winger to have finished it off.
France looked very solid and will do well this year. They were extremely physical in the contact, I can see them roughing a few teams up.
Sgt_Pooly- Posts : 36294
Join date : 2011-04-27
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
England looked rusty in the game but I also feel they did not have the correct balance in the backline, they looked much better when Farrell went to 10.
Picamoles and Spedding were simply outstanding and I would love to see their stats for meters gained and defenders beaten, they seemed to break the gain line with ease.
Picamoles and Spedding were simply outstanding and I would love to see their stats for meters gained and defenders beaten, they seemed to break the gain line with ease.
eirebilly- Posts : 24807
Join date : 2011-02-09
Age : 53
Location : Milan
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
eirebilly wrote:
Picamoles and Spedding were simply outstanding and I would love to see their stats for meters gained and defenders beaten, they seemed to break the gain line with ease.
Picamoles - 131m made, 7 defenders beaten, 2 clean breaks
Spedding - 116m, 5 db, 2 cb
For England......
Hughes - 46m, 0 db, 3 cb
Brown - 104m, 3 db, 1 cb
Hughes had the most metres made in the England pack, next up was Launchbury with 15m.
Sgt_Pooly- Posts : 36294
Join date : 2011-04-27
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
Cheers Pooly, they are some stats for Picamoles and even more impressive since he was injured after 20mins and just played on.
eirebilly- Posts : 24807
Join date : 2011-02-09
Age : 53
Location : Milan
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
It will be interesting to see what Jones does with the back row next week. Haskell will be back but where. All three of the back row were very poor with Itoje at least having the excuse of playing out of his best position. Wood played like Jones criticised for playing before bringing him back. Hughes as usual lacked energy.
Is Clifford fit yet?
Is Clifford fit yet?
Exiledinborders- Posts : 1645
Join date : 2012-03-18
Location : Scottish Borders
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
I actually thought Hughes played quite well Exiled... Sure he is not as dynamic as Vunipola but he was not bad. He received a lot of static ball yet still managed to cross the gain line on a regular basis which gave England forward momentum. I think he was simply overshadowed by the brilliance of his opposite number Picamoles.
eirebilly- Posts : 24807
Join date : 2011-02-09
Age : 53
Location : Milan
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
Hughes tried hard but his running style is far too upright in contact. France played with three no.8s who were heavy enough to stop Hughes around the gainline. Vunipola used to do the same initially for England but changed to a lower running posture, Hughes needs to do the same.
Clearly missing Robshaw's cleanup operation around rucks but Wood is perfectly capable in that role, leaving Haskell to do the glamour stuff.
Fully expect next season to see, fitness allowing, Carl Fearns and Callum Clark come into the equation for consideration as potential successors to the smash the rucks role currently played by Haskell.
Mullan and George should be brought on much earlier for the Welsh game as they could really squeeze the opposition front row in the scrums.
Surprised Care didn't start, given his success last year against France with the simple pace on the pass and bring Youngs on later to exert control.
Ford simply needs to move to Tigers, to lighten his mood and current mindset and get back some of the form he had 18 months ago, as he is currently operating at about 60% of his talent.
Expect an improvement next Saturday but should be fascinating.
Clearly missing Robshaw's cleanup operation around rucks but Wood is perfectly capable in that role, leaving Haskell to do the glamour stuff.
Fully expect next season to see, fitness allowing, Carl Fearns and Callum Clark come into the equation for consideration as potential successors to the smash the rucks role currently played by Haskell.
Mullan and George should be brought on much earlier for the Welsh game as they could really squeeze the opposition front row in the scrums.
Surprised Care didn't start, given his success last year against France with the simple pace on the pass and bring Youngs on later to exert control.
Ford simply needs to move to Tigers, to lighten his mood and current mindset and get back some of the form he had 18 months ago, as he is currently operating at about 60% of his talent.
Expect an improvement next Saturday but should be fascinating.
Recwatcher16- Posts : 798
Join date : 2016-02-15
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
I would be very tempted to start George against the Welsh, England may well need his extra mobility. I actually think he is the better hooker than Hartley right now (maybe due to Hartley's time out).
eirebilly- Posts : 24807
Join date : 2011-02-09
Age : 53
Location : Milan
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
I actually thought Wood was OK- the only real criticisms being that he was penalized too much (sometimes bizarrely) and physically he was on balance outmuscled by the French. However he did as much as any player to keep us in the game in defense.
The thing about Itoje is had it been any other (new) player at 6 it would all have felt a bit 'meh'. He was 'average'. We are used to him being something special and the ratings he seems to get are more related to where we expect him to be than his actual performance.
Hughes was willing to carry the ball but there were few opportunities. He did knock one French defender flying with a run late on but outside of that seemed invisible.
As for the wings Daly was fine. Yes he did put his foot in touch for the non try but he should get some credit for being there in the first place. May was industrious and cleared up a lot of bad ball, but sometimes coughed up ball too, so mixed. Both of them broadly kept their fijan opposition quiet. And Daly did kick the penalty that was the difference.
The thing about Itoje is had it been any other (new) player at 6 it would all have felt a bit 'meh'. He was 'average'. We are used to him being something special and the ratings he seems to get are more related to where we expect him to be than his actual performance.
Hughes was willing to carry the ball but there were few opportunities. He did knock one French defender flying with a run late on but outside of that seemed invisible.
As for the wings Daly was fine. Yes he did put his foot in touch for the non try but he should get some credit for being there in the first place. May was industrious and cleared up a lot of bad ball, but sometimes coughed up ball too, so mixed. Both of them broadly kept their fijan opposition quiet. And Daly did kick the penalty that was the difference.
lostinwales- lostinwales
- Posts : 13355
Join date : 2011-06-09
Location : Out of Wales :)
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
I know that May has speed but I think Nowell is the more complete wing.
I would drop May to the bench and start Nowell for the next game
I would drop May to the bench and start Nowell for the next game
eirebilly- Posts : 24807
Join date : 2011-02-09
Age : 53
Location : Milan
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
Sgt_Pooly wrote:George Carlin wrote:I didn't manage to watch this one yet.
Were England really that bad or were the French strong and much improved? Or both?
Perhaps based on the matches in the final year of last year's tournament, I think that both England and Ireland fans were expecting healthy victories.
Isn't this a chance to find out more about your squads?
Can I also ask how Daly played because I really rate him.
England were poor and France have certainly improved, I guess we kind of met in middle somewhere. We dropped the ball and knocked on way too much, stopping us getting any momentum early on. Set piece went quite well but we slipped off tackles for fun.
Daly was ok, nothing amazing. Had a good chance for a try but put his feet in touch when I'd have expected a good winger to have finished it off.
France looked very solid and will do well this year. They were extremely physical in the contact, I can see them roughing a few teams up.
George Carlin- Admin
- Posts : 15780
Join date : 2011-06-23
Location : KSA
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
I am increasingly thinking that we do have to adjust how we play. Its like we are expecting to play the same way as when Robshaw (to anticipate and clean everything up) and Billy (to always give go forward) are playing, and they are not.
If playing Robshaw is the thing that allows us to play Ford/ Farrell and he's not there then we need to just play Farrell.
If playing Robshaw is the thing that allows us to play Ford/ Farrell and he's not there then we need to just play Farrell.
lostinwales- lostinwales
- Posts : 13355
Join date : 2011-06-09
Location : Out of Wales :)
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
The tackling was awful yesterday from England, I appreciate the French/Fijian XV were big blokes but still.
I think Eddie will beast them this coming week.
I think Eddie will beast them this coming week.
TightHEAD- Posts : 6192
Join date : 2014-09-25
Age : 62
Location : Brexit Island.
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
TightHEAD wrote:The tackling was awful yesterday from England, I appreciate the French/Fijian XV were big blokes but still.
I think Eddie will beast them this coming week.
Considering we lost Kruis and the black eye/ bandage that May was wearing I think Jones already has been beasting them. It may be another contributing reason for the performance too
lostinwales- lostinwales
- Posts : 13355
Join date : 2011-06-09
Location : Out of Wales :)
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
Happy Sunday boys.
This was exactly the game I was concerned about. In a very strange way I agree with Eddie Jones in that as the game went on it seemed England were always in it, just looking for that one opportunity or bounce of the ball to go our way. France couldn't put England away despite their play in the first half and it came back to bite them. This England group may really be developing as a group where these kinds of matches don't throw them the way it might have in the past.
I was never the biggest fan of Daly, but he is really coming into his own. Especially if Ford is off the pitch, having Daly as another kicking option is a huge benefit. Plus his overall play has been terrific. He has the added advantage of being able to cover a number of positions which helps when looking at match ups against other teams.
About the replacements coming on, overall I think it gave a better personnel match up against the French team. But it does open eyes a bit:
Clearly a 12 minute cameo from Te'o (from the olde English Te'o clan) is not enough to drop Ford to the bench and start Farrell and Te'o together as some of my mates are already suggesting. But it does show the limits of a Ford-Farrell pairing and is something I bet we see in future games, especially with Te'o coming from the bench earlier and other possible pairings in the mid-field.
The Haskell-Itoje-Launchbury move was huge and gave more strength and expertise at the breakdown. For all we laugh at Haskell a bit, he is really a very good player. I think it also shows Jones regards Lawes' style of play more than Launchbury from the second row.
I think George coming on for Hartley showed what a younger and match fit player can do. Jones always talks about leadership and wanting more leaders in the team, and more leaders playing at the same time. So, unless Hartley cannot improve, it will probably be a while until George gets his starts regularly. And Jones seems happy to let Hartley play himself back into shape. I think Jones should get George a start sometime soon to see what he can do. Interesting Jones usually pulls Hartley at the 55-60 minute point, so yesterday's match was no different.
Glad we have this out of the way. It really looks like a tighter and better Six Nations this year. This has a long way to go.
This was exactly the game I was concerned about. In a very strange way I agree with Eddie Jones in that as the game went on it seemed England were always in it, just looking for that one opportunity or bounce of the ball to go our way. France couldn't put England away despite their play in the first half and it came back to bite them. This England group may really be developing as a group where these kinds of matches don't throw them the way it might have in the past.
I was never the biggest fan of Daly, but he is really coming into his own. Especially if Ford is off the pitch, having Daly as another kicking option is a huge benefit. Plus his overall play has been terrific. He has the added advantage of being able to cover a number of positions which helps when looking at match ups against other teams.
About the replacements coming on, overall I think it gave a better personnel match up against the French team. But it does open eyes a bit:
Clearly a 12 minute cameo from Te'o (from the olde English Te'o clan) is not enough to drop Ford to the bench and start Farrell and Te'o together as some of my mates are already suggesting. But it does show the limits of a Ford-Farrell pairing and is something I bet we see in future games, especially with Te'o coming from the bench earlier and other possible pairings in the mid-field.
The Haskell-Itoje-Launchbury move was huge and gave more strength and expertise at the breakdown. For all we laugh at Haskell a bit, he is really a very good player. I think it also shows Jones regards Lawes' style of play more than Launchbury from the second row.
I think George coming on for Hartley showed what a younger and match fit player can do. Jones always talks about leadership and wanting more leaders in the team, and more leaders playing at the same time. So, unless Hartley cannot improve, it will probably be a while until George gets his starts regularly. And Jones seems happy to let Hartley play himself back into shape. I think Jones should get George a start sometime soon to see what he can do. Interesting Jones usually pulls Hartley at the 55-60 minute point, so yesterday's match was no different.
Glad we have this out of the way. It really looks like a tighter and better Six Nations this year. This has a long way to go.
doctor_grey- Posts : 12279
Join date : 2011-04-30
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
Given the approximate parity of possession & position, these stats tell a large part of England's problems yesterday:
England France
50% Possession 50%
57% Territory 43%
99 (24) Tackles made (missed) 85 (13)
383 Metres made 591
Too little carrying and almost pub team level tackling. Against a side that can finish better than France we could be in trouble unless we sort this.
England France
50% Possession 50%
57% Territory 43%
99 (24) Tackles made (missed) 85 (13)
383 Metres made 591
Too little carrying and almost pub team level tackling. Against a side that can finish better than France we could be in trouble unless we sort this.
Barney McGrew did it- Posts : 1604
Join date : 2012-02-23
Location : Trumpton
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
It amazes me how disorganised France can be. Speddings kick in the last minute was unbelievably bad.They have some very good players but seem to be a real hit and hope team.
GunsGermsV2- Posts : 2550
Join date : 2016-11-15
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
I had England down to lose as soon as the team was announced, there wasn't enough beef in the pack IMHO and it really doesn't function anywhere near as well without Robshaw. Wood, Itoje and Lawes doesn't strike me as a good attacking option, especially when Hughes has nowhere near Billy V's workrate or intensity.
I was surprised that Nowell wasn't brought on earlier, his ability to get involved in the game away from the sidelines and his wriggling would have been far more effective around that huge French pack than May's straight running. Likewise with Teo, we needed a big impact player who could run straight lines down the centre to make up for the lack of go forward from the pack.
Part of me wanted France to win, just to give the team, media and fans a reality check. England have played some excellent rugby under Jones but also some woeful performances which tend to be forgotten in victory. Though I doubt this performance will be forgotten.
Haskell needs to start next week but it does leave us without a big impact player on the bench.
I was surprised that Nowell wasn't brought on earlier, his ability to get involved in the game away from the sidelines and his wriggling would have been far more effective around that huge French pack than May's straight running. Likewise with Teo, we needed a big impact player who could run straight lines down the centre to make up for the lack of go forward from the pack.
Part of me wanted France to win, just to give the team, media and fans a reality check. England have played some excellent rugby under Jones but also some woeful performances which tend to be forgotten in victory. Though I doubt this performance will be forgotten.
Haskell needs to start next week but it does leave us without a big impact player on the bench.
Hoonercat- Posts : 399
Join date : 2015-03-23
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
Great point. The tackling was poor indeed, and actually worse than the stats. If England made more tackles, likely England would have had more opportunity to have the ball and gain ground. But more than any player's performance, you hit on the key. No one on the team except Harrison (who didn't play) is exempt from criticism.Barney McGrew did it wrote:Given the approximate parity of possession & position, these stats tell a large part of England's problems yesterday:
England France
50% Possession 50%
57% Territory 43%
99 (24) Tackles made (missed) 85 (13)
383 Metres made 591
Too little carrying and almost pub team level tackling. Against a side that can finish better than France we could be in trouble unless we sort this.
By the way, in the big scheme of things I blame the metric system. We would have gained more 'hard yards', than wimpy metres. We need a revolution: Put the metric system back in the hands of the technical and medical where it belongs, and return the proper Imperial system for Rugby and the rest of humanity, as intended from the beginning...................
doctor_grey- Posts : 12279
Join date : 2011-04-30
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
Was at the game yesterday, England were hugely disappointing. The only positive is the result - with trips to Cardiff and Dublin we can't afford to be losing any of our home games if we want to be in with a shot of the tournament, so in that respect it's job done.
You'd think players like Hartley, Youngs and Ford would have enough credit in the bank to get another start, and especially Hartley would have benefited from the minutes he played. If Haskell is fit to start, it allows us to reshuffle our pack slightly and move Itoje back into the second row. Clifford could also come in to contention on the bench, as he is a different type of carrier to Hughes and gives us a slightly different option.
Jones said Nowell being picked on the bench was horses for courses, and I think that's because he wanted May on the kickchase. I think he may swap Nowell into the starting line-up, however I think he'll be reluctant to remove Daly and his boot.
This was the worst England performance since the World Cup game against Australia. I can't see England playing this badly again next week, but if they do the dream of back-to-back Slams will almost definitely be up in smoke.
You'd think players like Hartley, Youngs and Ford would have enough credit in the bank to get another start, and especially Hartley would have benefited from the minutes he played. If Haskell is fit to start, it allows us to reshuffle our pack slightly and move Itoje back into the second row. Clifford could also come in to contention on the bench, as he is a different type of carrier to Hughes and gives us a slightly different option.
Jones said Nowell being picked on the bench was horses for courses, and I think that's because he wanted May on the kickchase. I think he may swap Nowell into the starting line-up, however I think he'll be reluctant to remove Daly and his boot.
This was the worst England performance since the World Cup game against Australia. I can't see England playing this badly again next week, but if they do the dream of back-to-back Slams will almost definitely be up in smoke.
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
Barney McGrew did it wrote:Given the approximate parity of possession & position, these stats tell a large part of England's problems yesterday:
England France
50% Possession 50%
57% Territory 43%
99 (24) Tackles made (missed) 85 (13)
383 Metres made 591
Too little carrying and almost pub team level tackling. Against a side that can finish better than France we could be in trouble unless we sort this.
We appear to have done away with low, hard tackling in favour of standing up straight and hugging the opposition to the ground. Any French player coming into the game with a knock would have left the field feeling much better after 80 minutes of being massaged gently.
Worrying, given how strict refs are now on high tackles and head contact.
Hoonercat- Posts : 399
Join date : 2015-03-23
Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February
I can't imagine training this week will be a joyous affair............robbo277 wrote:This was the worst England performance since the World Cup game against Australia. I can't see England playing this badly again next week, but if they do the dream of back-to-back Slams will almost definitely be up in smoke.
doctor_grey- Posts : 12279
Join date : 2011-04-30
Page 8 of 10 • 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
Similar topics
» 6N 2017: Wales v England, 11 February
» 6N 2017: Wales v England, 11 February
» 6N 2017: Scotland v Ireland, 4 February
» 6N 2017: France v Scotland, 12 February
» 6N 2017: Italy v Wales, 5 February
» 6N 2017: Wales v England, 11 February
» 6N 2017: Scotland v Ireland, 4 February
» 6N 2017: France v Scotland, 12 February
» 6N 2017: Italy v Wales, 5 February
The v2 Forum :: Sport :: Rugby Union :: International
Page 8 of 10
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum