6N 2017: England v France, 4 February

First topic message reminder :

  
ENGLAND v FRANCE
4 February 2017
KO: 16:50
Twickenham, London 

Live on ITV, FR2, RTE, DMAX, BBC (H)

Referee: Angus Gardner (Australia)
Touch judges: Glen Jackson (New Zealand) & Marius van der Westhuizen (South Africa)
TMO: Peter Fitzgibbon (Ireland)

A. Head to Head

102 Played 102
56 Won 39
7 Drawn 7
39 Lost 56
1623 Points 1290

B. Recent Form 

19 March 2016
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
21 – 31 to England

22 August 2015
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
25 – 20 to France

15 August 2015
Twickenham, London
19 – 14 to England

21 March 2015
Twickenham, London
55 – 35 to England

1 February 2014
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
26 – 24 to France

C. Teams

ENGLAND 

15-Mike Brown; 14-Jonny May, 13-Jonathan Joseph, 12-Owen Farrell, 11-Elliot Daly; 10-George Ford, 9-Ben Youngs; 1-Joe Marler, 2-Dylan Hartley (captain), 3-Dan Cole, 4-Joe Launchbury, 5-Courtney Lawes, 6-Maro Itoje, 7-Tom Wood, 8-Nathan Hughes

Replacements: 16-Jamie George, 17-Matt Mullan, 18-Kyle Sinckler 19-Teimana Harrison, 20-James Haskell, 21-Danny Care, 22-Ben Te'o, 23-Jack Nowell

FRANCE

15-Scott Spedding; 14-Noa Nakaitaci, 13-Remi Lamerat, 12-Gael Fickou, 11-Virimi Vakatawa; 10-Camille Lopez, 9-Baptiste Serin; 1-Cyril Baille, 2-Guilhem Guirado (captain), 3-Uini Atonio, 4-Sebastien Vahaamahina, 5-Yoann Maestri, 6-Damien Chouly, 7-Kevin Gourdon, 8-Louis Picamoles

Replacements: 16-Clement Maynadier, 17-Rabah Slimani, 18-Xavier Chiocci, 19-Arthur Iturria, 20-Loann Goujon, 21-Maxime Machenaud, 22-Jean Marc Doussain, 23-Yoann Huget

I am saying England are in a difficult position, I don't know what's the best in the circumstances but I don't have the blind faith that a player will effortlessly slot into a position at international off the bench.

Yes it's a timing issue and unlikely to be repeated but it happened. Just proving yet again that when players are inexperienced they can be a liability.

Equally unfit players can be a liability. Ultimately teams have to minimise the risks of mistakes happening.

Red cards aren't normal for England hence it only being the 5th.

When there are warning signs it's best not to dismiss them.

My point is I still don't know what Jones' contingency plan is if Brown is injured, he has to build experience for a back up 15.


Bambam Goode isn't a versatile bench option, I'd agree with that statement. No I wouldn't necessarily have Goode. Back up to Brown at 15 is a problem, Jones hasn't fixed. I don't know what the solution is but expecting Daly to be masterful at 13,wing and 15 off the bench is fanciful. It might well happen but Daly needs time.

beshocked wrote: where's the proof? I'd love it if it were true. Sadly Daly is currently most well known for being the 5th man to be red carded for England.

Google search results
"Elliott Daly Red Card" 5,570 hits
"Elliot Daly" without mentions of card 87,300 results

How do you propose he builds experience for a back up 15 without, you know, giving experience to a back up 15?

Is there another international side willing to give Daly some experience at full back then we'll have him back once ready?

Your choices?

scottrf shouldn't take it so literally. I mean in his international career.

Bambam so it's a good time to do it? Look perhaps I am wrong, maybe Daly is the best man to be back up 15 for England. It's just the lack of experience that's an issue for me. I agree he needs to give experience but is perhaps a crucial period really the best time?

Let's say England and France are equal with 20 minutes to go, Brown hobbles off, is it really the best time to have an inexperienced 15 in the backline?

beshocked wrote:scottrf shouldn't take it so literally. I mean in his international career.

Bambam so it's a good time to do it? Look perhaps I am wrong, maybe Daly is the best man to be back up 15 for England. It's just the lack of experience that's an issue for me. I agree he needs to give experience but is perhaps a crucial period really the best time?

Sooo .. who would you have instead?

You're offering no options, but keep repeating that Daly is inexperienced (We know), that he hasn't played 15 at international level (We know) and that these games are crucial (We know)

Is this heading towards the same argument that players from a certain club should be thrown in based on their performance for their clubs, but players from other clubs need to perform at international level before they are given a chance at international level

Bambam there aren't any options because none have been developed.

Why do you keep thinking it's about Saracens? Goode isn't putting up his hand up this season, injuries haven't helped to be fair but he's not really unlucky this time round. Lozowski isn't experienced enough at 15 yet either. I am not advocating a Saracens 15 at the moment.

Daly isn't starting at full back for Wasps. He's playing 13 and people are expecting him to put in a masterclass off the bench at 15?

Some players slot in easily but not all do. Too much expectation on Daly to perform as cover.

Different role, different priorities, different positioning. Easier to be out of position if you are in an unfamiliar role.

No I don't believe Daly is comfortable at international level yet.

Daly has proven himself at top Euro level and has looked impressive in his limited appearances for England, what more do you want? He needs more game time obviously, but bar one stupid mistake he seems like a natural at Int level.

Itoje has to start for England because he's performed well in Euro comps but if a player comes from another club it doesn't count. Daly looks an excellent prospect and I'm more than happy with him covering numerous positions.

BS.....you really come across like prat on these boards sometimes.

beshocked wrote:Bambam there aren't any options because none have been developed.

Hence perhaps why Jones is looking to develop an option?

Would you have been so "angry" if Lozowski had been retained to cover centre, wing and FB?

So it was a mistake for Jones not to have more than 1 full back in case I'd injury. ..what's your starting back row beshocked and bench?

Comparing Itoje to Daly.....

Firstly Itoje so far has proven to be a much greater prospect than Daly, breaking into the England side earlier and making a huge impact already. Different position sure but Itoje has embraced international rugby much easier than many players. He's a very mature and level headed individual for his age. He could have let the hype go to his head but he hasn't. Mentally he's very strong.


It's also easier when Itoje started his international career in a position he was completely familiar with, was partnered with his team mate and coached by two people he's very familiar with. It's not the same as being asked to potentially cover 3 positions off the bench.

Itoje also seems to be once in a generation player (something you seem to ignore).

Daly made a big mistake when played in a position he's not really that familiar with.

People make mistakes, it happens but it still shows Daly is a work in progress, not yet the finished article. It was a sign of his inexperience.

I think Daly will hopefully eventually make a positive impact for England but is still a work in progress.

Itoje might make a mistake too but the risk is less.

LondonTiger wrote:

beshocked wrote:Bambam there aren't any options because none have been developed.

Hence perhaps why Jones is looking to develop an option?

Would you have been so "angry" if Lozowski had been retained to cover centre, wing and FB?

Well it would have been quite a risk to do that too. Could be a liability if that was the case, yes

Your choices. ..

No 7&1/2 wrote:Your choices. ..

In the circumstances I'd still probably pick Daly due to lack of options but I am still worried if Brown is injured.

I just don't share your confidence in Daly effortlessly covering 3 positions. Hopefully it's a risk that will pay off.

13 sure, that's fine. Wing, err.... Full back.....


Sgt Pooly don't expect Itoje to play cover at prop and no 8, he's covered 6 a bit but then again if he's had experience there.Lock has been his primary position though for England.

So after the initial woe is me Jones is making a mistake and several posts suggesting people have said things they haven't we're all ok again.

Kruis out.

The BBC are reporting that Kruis is out of the France match. Majority of the pack writes itself now. Only real question is who starts at loosehead.

Unlucky for England to lose Kruis this late and the pack looks a little unsettled. Still expect the win but not a French drubbing.

It's not so long ago that Kruis having to play in the 6N in place of Lawes was seen as a reason England would lose in Cardiff. He's a great player, but his replacements aren't bad.

Cumbrian wrote:The BBC are reporting that Kruis is out of the France match. Majority of the pack writes itself now. Only real question is who starts at loosehead.

It's a shame Phil Vickery plays on the other side.

Listened and read a lot of Six Nations previews, and there are a fair few expecting England to stumble this season, on account of the missing Vunipola brothers & Robshaw. Also the away games in Cardiff & Dublin.

This line of thinking has our pack on the back foot, and Ben Youngs putting in the kind of harried performance he has shown at Leicester recently.

Genuinely have no idea myself. My main worry is that Jones goes for a 6/2 bench but George Ford turns flaky, on account of poor service from Youngs, and Jones feels compelled to hook him early, moving Farrell to 10. We'd then only have Care as a backs replacement, which would stretch our resources very thin.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So after the initial woe is me Jones is making a mistake and several posts suggesting people have said things they haven't we're all ok again.

Well that's not true. Sgt Pooly has been hyping up Daly. I just want to see him deliver first personally. Anyway we'll see if he does.

Hyping up a player is fine, I've done it plenty of times but it's important that they deliver.

Kruis being out is not a big deal, Lawes can cover just fine. It's an experienced 2nd row replacing another 2nd row.

But it's cover lost.

You don't consider Daly an excellent prospect fair enough but I don't think saying that is particularly hyping him that much. But we all agree that Daly is the best pick for the bench currently.

Hardly hyping up suggesting he's played well in Europe and in his brief England career. As it stands, I'm not a huge Daly fan, I think he has problems in defence which can be targeted.

But he's a very consistent, versatile player with a huge boot. I've liked him at 15 when I've seen him and he's a very good 13, players like him are extremely valuable from a squad perspective.

I get that he doesn't play for Saracens, but he's one of the best options we have.

Kruis does take cover away but we will have 3 lcks on the pitch to start with all of which can easily go 80 min. I expect that Jones will use Itoje as cover for lock anyway.

beshocked wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

beshocked wrote:Utility is great but not if a player is a master of none. Daly has potential but hasn't excelled in one position at international level let alone covering 3 different ones. It's a risk. I don't share the confidence of the rest of you.

We've already seen Daly be a liability. I am not saying it will happen again but it could.

T'eo is similar, he hasn't excelled in one position yet he's very likely to be our other bench option. That worries me a bit personally.

Now maybe both will be a huge success we'll see.

We've seen him make a mistake that even the most senior experienced pro's are making!

Daly was only the 5th player to get red carded for England and first in 11 years.

It's not a mistake that is done often.


Bambam sadly there aren't really any.

Look I'd love to agree with you guys that a Daly is a proven performer at FB,wing and outside centre at international level but I just haven't seen any evidence.

I want Daly to come on at full back and tear up the opposition, it's just doesn't seem realistic.

So the bottom line Beshocked is.....
No young player is PROVEN unless they play for Saracens.
How they perform in training is irrelevant unless its training at Saracens
When a player is sent off they are a liability, unless its a Saracens player then its a harsh decision.
etc
etc

Have I got that right?

Tbf I think he's saying the exact same as the rest of use. Daly is the best option lots of talent and potential. We generally differ on the red card being one of those things that happen with the rules the way they are vs being held against him for the forsee able future while still wanting him to get experience.

Daly starts on the wing

carpet baboon wrote:Daly starts on the wing

Feck me I did not see that coming. I know that Jones really rates Daly and wants him involved, but his unfamiliarity with playing on the Wing was a large reason for his red card challenge on Senatore(?). Mullan on bench ahead of Genge is as expected and will be interesting to see Itoje start in teh back row.


England team to face France:
Mike Brown; Jonny May, Jonathan Joseph, Owen Farrell, Elliot Daly; George Ford, Ben Youngs; Joe Marler, Dylan Hartley (captain), Dan Cole; Joe Launchbury; Courtney Lawes; Maro Itoje, Tom Wood, Nathan Hughes.

Replacements: Jamie George, Matt Mullan, Kyle Sinckler, Teimana Harrison, James Haskell, Danny Care, Ben Te'o, Jack Nowell.

Also I think Jones likes Daly's massive boot. You have a player who can take penalty's from I side his own half is a decent weapon to have

Big big call that from Jones; even with so many injuries in the pack that's a strong bench especially George, Sinckler and Haskell.

I think Daly can play wing but Nowell has been so good recently I'd have gone with him. Agree the bench looks strong.

Looking forward to seeing how Itoje goes as a back rower

Can't agree with that, Nowell has been brilliant. Otherwise as expected.

How does Nowell not start??? He's been top class!

Itoje wont play any different to how he plays lock...he'll be excellent.

France are going to have a tidal wave of physical aggression from 60 mins when those subs start coming on!!!

I think the scrum will be intresting. France were impressively destructive during the AIs.
On the flip side there lineout has been gash.
Set price will be crucial for france

I can see big issues for them in the lineout.

Has there been sight of an expected French side yet?

We have effectively 4 lineout jumpers....and even Hughes at an emergency.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I can see big issues for them in the lineout.

Can see England starling a lot of the lineout ball from the French.

How do you see the scrum going? During the AIs France won nearly 50% of the opposition's scrums. That's pretty impressive

Ah apparently Nowell missed a few days training due to "personal reasons"...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ah apparently Nowell missed a few days training due to "personal reasons"...

Coming to terms with the loss of that awful rat's tail ?

munkian wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ah apparently Nowell missed a few days training due to "personal reasons"...

Coming to terms with the loss of that awful rat's tail ?

That was my question too.

England generally still set out to do ok at scrum and not much better. Can see France trying to turn the screw there so hope for a dry day.

At least Marler is a better scrummager than Mako and Mullen, lets hope he's scrum fit.

You should bum France at the set piece

I feel for Nowell, but perhaps Daly's inclusion is an indicator of how Eddie sees the game panning out? Perhaps he is anticipating needing the ability to kick goals from behind the halfway line?

I believe that the line-out should be fine, we've got four possibly five (Hughes) players that can jump and I reckon Lawes will call them. Scrum time will be interesting, I believe France have their own injury problems and we've picked quite a big pack. I am getting excited about this now!

Cant see why France would turn us over in the scrum?

We'll be solid. We should be comfortable on our ball...and should dominate the lineouts.

Plenty of ball for the backs to work with!

Cumbrian wrote:I feel for Nowell, but perhaps Daly's inclusion is an indicator of how Eddie sees the game panning out?  Perhaps he is anticipating needing the ability to kick goals from behind the halfway line?  

I believe that the line-out should be fine, we've got four possibly five (Hughes) players that can jump and I reckon Lawes will call them.  Scrum time will be interesting, I believe France have their own injury problems and we've picked quite a big pack.  I am getting excited about this now!

Absolutely Marra,im at KP to watch us smash Bath all over the park then will head to the tap and tackle for beer, curry and watch the England game