6N 2017: Wales v England, 11 February

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WALES v ENGLAND 
11 February 2017
KO:16:50 GMT
Principality Stadium, Cardiff

Live on [ITV, RTE, SC4, FR2, DMAX / BBC (H)]

Referee: Jerome Garces (France)
Touch judges: Pascal Gauzere (France) & Nick Briant (New Zealand)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

A. Head to Head

129 Played 129
57 Won 60
12 Drawn 12
60 Lost 57
1,673 Points 1,518

B. Recent Form 

29 May 2016: Twickenham, London
27 – 13 to England
2016 mid-year rugby union internationals

12 March 2016: Twickenham, London
25 – 21 to England
2016 Six Nations Championship

26 September 2015: Twickenham, London
25 – 28 to Wales
2015 Rugby World Cup Pool A

26 September 2015: Twickenham, London 
25 – 28 to Wales 
2015 Rugby World Cup Pool A 

6 February 2015: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 
16 – 21 to England 
2015 Six Nations 

9 March 2014: Twickenham Stadium, London 
29 – 18 to England 
2014 Six Nations 

16 March 2013: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 
30 – 3 to Wales 
2013 Six Nations 

25 February 2012: Twickenham Stadium, London 
12 – 19 to Wales 
2012 Six Nations

13 August 2011: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 
19 – 9 to Wales 
2011 Rugby World Cup warm up test 

6 August 2011: Twickenham, London 
23 – 19 to England 
2011 Rugby World Cup warm up test 

C. Teams

WALES

15-Leigh Halfpenny, 14-George North, 13-Jonathan Davies, 12-Scott Williams, 11-Liam Williams, 10-Dan Biggar, 9-Rhys Webb; 1-Rob Evans, 2-Ken Owens, 3-Tomas Francis, 4-Jake Ball, 5-Alun Wyn Jones, 6-Sam Warburton, 7-Justin Tipuric; 8-Ross Moriarty.

Replacements: 16-Scott Baldwin, 17-Nicky Smith, 18-Samson Lee, 19-Cory Hill, 20-Taulupe Faletau, 21-Gareth Davies, 22-Sam Davies, 23-Jamie Roberts.

ENGLAND

15-Mike Brown, 14-Jack Nowell, 13-Jonathan Joseph, 12-Owen Farrell, 11-Elliot Daly, 10-George Ford, 9-Ben Youngs; 1-Joe Marler, 2-Dylan Hartley (captain), 3-Dan Cole, 4-Joe Launchbury, 5-Courtney Lawes, 6-Maro Itoje, 7-Jack Clifford, 8-Nathan Hughes.

Replacements: 16-Jamie George, 17-Matt Mullan, 18-Kyle Sinckler, 19-Tom Wood, 20-James Haskell, 21-Danny Care, 22-Ben Te'o, 23-Jonny May.

SecretFly wrote:

Cyril wrote:
He tends to avoid tackles he's not confident about in order to keep his stats high. It's like Chris Paterson with his kicking.

I'm also highly skeptical of tackling stats.

I like them - especially the fake ones.  Heasilp had 52 tackles and no misses against Scotland and still the ungrateful Irish fans want him f**ked off the team.

Impressive. However, he undid all the good work by tweeting 53 times during the interval about how happy he was to be a brand ambassador for Rory's Wine Bar.

Yeah, that screwed him.

munkian wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Cyril wrote:
He tends to avoid tackles he's not confident about in order to keep his stats high. It's like Chris Paterson with his kicking.

I'm also highly skeptical of tackling stats.

I like them - especially the fake ones.  Heasilp had 52 tackles and no misses against Scotland and still the ungrateful Irish fans want him f**ked off the team.

He should be f**cked into the liffey to keep him off the Lions tour

F*cked into the Liffey, or just thrown?

It's 'f**ked into' - that's correct language in Dublin.

Tipuric a luxury player?? There's a myth he hangs around in wide channels because he's sometimes there doing something eye-catching, but he does plenty of hard work too.

Is Cuthbert even in the squad for the 6ns?

majesticimperialman wrote:Is Cuthbert even in the squad for the 6ns?

You know he is.

Then munkian, If North is injured. I guess he will start right.

majesticimperialman wrote:Then munkian, If North is injured. I guess he will start right.

That's the concern though this match has 2013 part 2 written allover it so he'll be fine.

munkian wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Then munkian, If North is injured. I guess he will start right.

That's the concern though this match has 2013 part 2 written allover it so he'll be fine.

You Hope so.

munkian wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Then munkian, If North is injured. I guess he will start right.

That's the concern though this match has 2013 part 2 written allover it so he'll be fine.

Part 2, eh?

The Empire Strikes Back?

I like the sound of that

munkian wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Then munkian, If North is injured. I guess he will start right.

That's the concern though this match has 2013 part 2 written allover it so he'll be fine.

Steve Walsh is the guest referee? Noooooooooooooo..

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:That isn't / wasn't the case, and I said so. That's all I did.

So it's not a pretence of misunderstanding, you genuinely don't realise you're wrong. Fair enough. Best to leave it then.

miaow, have you ever thought it might be you?

Na. Only seem to be trolled by people who get angry about having to read or ignore a few paragraphs on a wesbite

Ha ha

A few paragraphs? Pull the other one.

miaow wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:That isn't / wasn't the case, and I said so. That's all I did.

So it's not a pretence of misunderstanding, you genuinely don't realise you're wrong. Fair enough. Best to leave it then.

But it wasn't the case. Really. I'm not making it up. Plenty of people were full of praise for him before the AIs. Just because it passed you by doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I don't know how else to say it!

How is this still even a thing?

Because Miaow is never wrong.

Winzer wrote:Tipuric a luxury player??  There's a myth he hangs around in wide channels because he's sometimes there doing something eye-catching, but he does plenty of hard work too.  

yes but some fans of this weeks opposition still have nightmares about the try he created in 2013 when we won by rather a large margin

Anyhoooo...if Sam Davies does start. Will he be told to just play what's in front of him or part of a gatlandball lite gameplan?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Because Miaow is never wrong.

As I've said, if you're confused about an idiomatic figure of speech, best to ask for clarification first. This isn't the first time this has happened with you.

Of course there were people rating Sam Davies prior to the AIs. Did you think when I said there was no-one rating him that it was a qualitative statement? As in, literally no-one? Not his Mother or Father? Not Steve Tandy? Not Warren Gatland, Shirley Bassey, nor Max Boyce? If that was what I meant, then yes, you'd be correct. Except that's not what I meant, and not what most people who speak the English language would have inferred. It was demonstrative of the scale of hype surrounding him now when, despite doing relatively little between then and now to further demonstrate his ability, he is now being lauded as the new messiah.

One over exaggeration deserves another. Go back a week in time and you wouldn't see nearly as many calling for Sam Davies to start over Biggar. That's the point I was making. The fickle and illogical nature of fairweather Welsh fans calling for Biggar to be dropped in what will be the most physical game of the season for Wales. Hence, your misunderstanding based on misinterpreting a figure of speech. All very simple stuff. Apology accepted in advance.

I've asked you and you chose to ignore it- in fact, I've rarely seen you address anything Rugby related on these boards, so let's have a go- but why would you start Sam Davies ahead of Dan Biggar on the weekend, if Biggar is fit enough to play?

No, I took your 'no one' to mean 'hardly anyone', as anyone would. But that isn't true either. Plenty of people were rating him before the AIs.

Again, just because you weren't aware of it doesn't mean it wasn't happening.

I don't think either side particularly wants the favourites tag for this one hence why Jones has talked about England's horrendous record and Warburton has tried to build up England.

I think it's smart from both sides. Best not to give the opposition too much to stoke the fire.


Both sides have had lethargic starts to the 6 nations. I am not sure too many English fans are too confident going into this match, we know it will be tough. Winnable of course but Wales have the personnel to cause plenty of issues.

Just what are the chances of Biggar being fit for the game? He looked very sore when the second half started.

Sean Edwards says they are 'worried about' Biggar and George North.

Its a pain management issue. Today they'll jab him full of anesthetic and see if he can handle a contact session. If he can he'll play. Likewise North, a bruised leg will stiffen and thats why the return plane journey exacerbated the issue. Physio, pain meds and movement is what it needs and i fully expect him to figure.

Just as an experiment, should we lock miaow and beshocked in a thread and see what happens?

More seriously, it looks like both sides have a choice between playing inexperienced players or unfit players, albeit in different positions. I'm worried about the English back row, but if England can get any quality possession (which they didn't in 2013), their backs will cause problems.

On the plus side, Garces is not Walsh and therefore has some idea what a scrum looks like.

[quote="Luckless Pedestrian"]No, I took your 'no one' to mean 'hardly anyone', as anyone would. But that isn't true either. Plenty of people were rating him before the AIs.quote]

Not on these boards, and- here's the crucial bit- nowhere near to the extent he is now being hyped up by the general population.

Don't mind Garces, had some good, had some bad with him. At least it's not Poite.

miaow wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:No, I took your 'no one' to mean 'hardly anyone', as anyone would. But that isn't true either. Plenty of people were rating him before the AIs.quote]

Not on these boards, and- here's the crucial bit- nowhere near to the extent he is now being hyped up by the general population.

Don't mind Garces, had some good, had some bad with him. At least it's not Poite.

Here, here!

majesticimperialman wrote:Just what are the chances of Biggar being fit for the game? He looked very sore when the second half started.

Biggar didn't play in the second half

TightHEAD wrote:Jérôme Garcès is a crowd pleaser, the 16th man will play its part.

I wish you knew Hersh mate. Peas in a pod.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

miaow wrote:Asking Sam Davies to start is like going back in time. Fairly certain no-one was rating him before the AIs?

If you did go back in time, you'd see that plenty of people rated him before the AIs.

I'm glad he's foe'd. Firstly because it saves the needless essays and secondly because he thinks that. Davies has been the form Welsh ten all season

Cyril wrote:Ha ha

A few paragraphs? Pull the other one.

Don't you enjoy a long read and seeing your web browser needlessly filled?

Surprise surprise Taulupe 'Toby ' Faletau is fit to play vs England. Not played since Christmas eve and prior to that only a few appearances for Bath.

They are Desperate!

Really worried about this England pack.

Front row should be fine, Marler and Hartley should be better for the hour they each got last week, and we've got a good bench.

In the second row, I thought Lawes was quite handy but Launchbury looked sluggish. Case for moving Itoje back in and dropping Launchbury, but then...

In the back row, Itoje looked average at 6 - and he's not an average player. Wood didn't look as good as he did in the autumn (and even then he wasn't as good as Haskell in Australia or last year's 6N) and Hughes did okay. Haskell cannot come in to the starting line-up, Wood may be injured anyway, so to move Itoje we'd have to start Harrison and Clifford. I'm not sure if that's better or worse than starting Itoje at 6.

There's a balance. As an England fan you think you'd rather have Launchbury on the pitch than Harrison, but is that really going to be best for the team? Especially if it means you get less out of Itoje.

I think I've talked myself into starting Harrison at 6, but I'd like to note it is with a huge amount of uncertainty

Harrison and Clifford both started that May game against Wales last year, albeit with Haskell at 7 and Clifford at 8. Wales were playing Lydiate and Moriarty on the flanks though, not Warburton and Tipuric.

I think we're pretty much at the stage where it doesn't matter who we pick (from our fit players), the Welsh back row is going to look more formidable. I'd rather get our outstanding lock back in the engine room after what I'd call a failed experiment last week, and then look to play natural back rowers in the back row. At least then we've got half a chance in my opinion.

Marler, Hartley, Cole, Itoje, Lawes, Harrison, Clifford, Hughes.
George, Mullan, Sinckler, Launchbury, Haskell.

Backs pretty much pick themselves. Little change from last week.

Well, Eddie Jones wasn't reading, or if he did it was too late.

Itoje stays at 6, Clifford comes in at 7. Wood and Haskell on the bench, with Harrison dropping out the squad completely.

Nowell for May in the backs.

I'm ok with that team, brining on Haskell and Wood brings in loads of experience when we will need it most. As long as we don't throw it away in the first 50 mins then I think we'll scrape home, just!

In Eddie we trust.

All round sensible selection from England. Haskell, Care, Te'o all useful impact players when the game might need them. The way he brought Haskell and Teo' on just as England had an attacking lineout was akin to an American Football tactical attack replacement. If ever you neeeded evidence that Rugby is now a 23 man game, that was it.

I hope Wales do likewise with Faletau and Charteris to counteract it and don't fall into the trap of starting them. That's where Sam Davies becomes key if Biggar is fit (or even if he's just half fit).

Not particularly worried by Wood, but again, he brings physicality from the bench against a tiring team. Nowell is a great little player, but then Jonny May's pace alone is a real asset.

If England get this right it could be comfortable. Big test of AWJ's captaincy, as I think most of the battle for us will be mentally sustaining the drive and ambition to put up with England's physicality, particularly around the breakdown. We can't outmuscle them, but equally we can't try to disengage that area and hope to win either.

TightHEAD wrote:I'm ok with that team, brining on Haskell and Wood brings in loads of experience when we will need it most. As long as we don't throw it away in the first 50 mins then I think we'll scrape home, just!

What if he decides after 30 minutes (as is his wont) that Itoje at 6 isn't working and wants to bring a flanker on for Launchbury? Does either of his back-ups have 50 minutes in them? Does he split the 50 minutes between the two of them?

I wish I shared your optimism. I think the rest of the team is strong and we're in with a chance, but we're not favourites. Saying that, picking my team above wouldn't make us favourites, so there's not loads we can do either way!

robbo277 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:I'm ok with that team, brining on Haskell and Wood brings in loads of experience when we will need it most. As long as we don't throw it away in the first 50 mins then I think we'll scrape home, just!

What if he decides after 30 minutes (as is his wont) that Itoje at 6 isn't working and wants to bring a flanker on for Launchbury? Does either of his back-ups have 50 minutes in them? Does he split the 50 minutes between the two of them?

I wish I shared your optimism. I think the rest of the team is strong and we're in with a chance, but we're not favourites. Saying that, picking my team above wouldn't make us favourites, so there's not loads we can do either way!

I beg to differ.....a team with an unbeaten run like Englands will always start favourites especially against a team coached by Howley

How do you rate your chances at the breakdown with Clifford and Itoje? Obivously we'll have to wait for the Welsh team to be announced, but as it's likely to be Tipuric and Warburton, that seems a big ask.

Is Clifford there in part to counteract Tipuric as a ball playing, linking openside?

I'm more confident with this starting team than last week's tbh. Massive test for that backroom all relatively new to internationals but it could work beautifully. We'll certainly learn something from the game.

True Raven wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:I'm ok with that team, brining on Haskell and Wood brings in loads of experience when we will need it most. As long as we don't throw it away in the first 50 mins then I think we'll scrape home, just!

What if he decides after 30 minutes (as is his wont) that Itoje at 6 isn't working and wants to bring a flanker on for Launchbury? Does either of his back-ups have 50 minutes in them? Does he split the 50 minutes between the two of them?

I wish I shared your optimism. I think the rest of the team is strong and we're in with a chance, but we're not favourites. Saying that, picking my team above wouldn't make us favourites, so there's not loads we can do either way!

I beg to differ.....a team with an unbeaten run like Englands will always start favourites especially against a team coached by Howley

Howley has a decent record against England, especially at the Millennium with that back row out and England's in disarray! Although in 2013 you had tight five dominance to go with it.

It's marginal. If we had Robshaw available to play 6, Itoje at 4 and everyone else the same I'd be so much more confident. But the back row really worries me.

miaow wrote:How do you rate your chances at the breakdown with Clifford and Itoje? Obivously we'll have to wait for the Welsh team to be announced, but as it's likely to be Tipuric and Warburton, that seems a big ask.

Is Clifford there in part to counteract Tipuric as a ball playing, linking openside?

Itoje is probably our biggest threat to your ball, and Clifford isn't bad either. Itoje also gives our lineout something extra (although it was a mess last week, Itoje was a constant source of possession for us) and Clifford's running game gives us a slightly different dimension as Tipuric does with you guys.

But what we had with Haskell at 7 was someone who could smash that first phase ruck and allow us to play quick ball. I don't know who is going to be doing that role clearing Warburton and Tipuric out on our ball. It's a big asked for seasoned Interantional flankers, let alone rookie ones.

I'd be surprised if they didn't get a few turnovers between them. Clean turnover ball is the best ball to attack from in the international game, and any penalties conceded will still give Wales field position or points. I wouldn't be surprised if England tried to play another kick-and-defend game, to negate that threat to our breakdown.

Wood brings physicality?

Plenty of impact from the bench though aside from Wood though. Hopefully Road Runner will be chomping at the bit off the bench.

Interesting that quite a few players who did well in the autumn like Road Runner,Hughes,Youngs,Ford,Launchbury were poor.

Perhaps Jones' preparation for the France game was sub par? Almost Lancaster esque how sluggish players looked. Reminded me of Lancaster's RWC prep.

I am hoping for a sharper England. Also I hope Jones is willing to take off underperforming players.


Warburton and Tipuric are a worry but Clifford and Itoje are bigger and stronger IMO, hopefully they can use their power as a counter as I think in terms of speed the Welsh duo are superior.

Itoje wasn't great vs France at 6 but I am sure he'll look at what he needs to do vs Wales and would have analysed how to counter Tipuric and Warburton. I don't they have the power of the French though will give a different challenge.

My concern is that England won't play as (relatively) poorly on Saturday as they did against France. True, they still won't have Billy Vunipola and Robshaw, two players they just can't replace, but they're still clearly one of the toughest threats we'll face.

I'm not happy that Nowell's back in. He's an excellent player.

Interesting team. Funny how it's changed from this time last year too.

Concerns are as mentioned the backrow, will it have the skill and experience to compete effectively? I can't see Wales shutting Hughes down as effectively as France did last week tbh, Clifford might be starting a few months too early but he has some big performances under his belt at least. Itoje will be better for last week.

Two other questions, is it me or does launchbury seem to lose conditioning very quickly? Summer last year he also looked out of shape and played sluggishly.

And will we miss May's speed on the kick chase?

I know that the back-row are somewhat callow as a unit, but with reference to the 'Cardiff effect', they also haven't taken a psychological bruising the way people like Robshaw, Wood and Haskell have there. It may result in them being overawed or it may make them rise to the challenge. As previous underage captains you've got to say that Itoje and Clifford have old heads on young shoulders though.

I'm also liking the bilateral attempts to appease the mockers gods. 'You're the favourites, no you are!'

yappysnap wrote:Interesting team. Funny how it's changed from this time last year too.

Concerns are as mentioned the backrow, will it have the skill and experience to compete effectively? I can't see Wales shutting Hughes down as effectively as France did last week tbh, Clifford might be starting a few months too early but he has some big performances under his belt at least. Itoje will be better for last week.

Two other questions, is it me or does launchbury seem to lose conditioning very quickly? Summer last year he also looked out of shape and played sluggishly.

And will we miss May's speed on the kick chase?

Launchbury looked really out of shape to me. He actually looks really quite over weight for a lock. When I saw him I was surprised how poor his conditioning was.