6N 2017: Wales v England, 11 February

First topic message reminder :


WALES v ENGLAND 
11 February 2017
KO:16:50 GMT
Principality Stadium, Cardiff

Live on [ITV, RTE, SC4, FR2, DMAX / BBC (H)]

Referee: Jerome Garces (France)
Touch judges: Pascal Gauzere (France) & Nick Briant (New Zealand)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

A. Head to Head

129 Played 129
57 Won 60
12 Drawn 12
60 Lost 57
1,673 Points 1,518

B. Recent Form 

29 May 2016: Twickenham, London
27 – 13 to England
2016 mid-year rugby union internationals

12 March 2016: Twickenham, London
25 – 21 to England
2016 Six Nations Championship

26 September 2015: Twickenham, London
25 – 28 to Wales
2015 Rugby World Cup Pool A

26 September 2015: Twickenham, London 
25 – 28 to Wales 
2015 Rugby World Cup Pool A 

6 February 2015: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 
16 – 21 to England 
2015 Six Nations 

9 March 2014: Twickenham Stadium, London 
29 – 18 to England 
2014 Six Nations 

16 March 2013: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 
30 – 3 to Wales 
2013 Six Nations 

25 February 2012: Twickenham Stadium, London 
12 – 19 to Wales 
2012 Six Nations

13 August 2011: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 
19 – 9 to Wales 
2011 Rugby World Cup warm up test 

6 August 2011: Twickenham, London 
23 – 19 to England 
2011 Rugby World Cup warm up test 

C. Teams

WALES

15-Leigh Halfpenny, 14-George North, 13-Jonathan Davies, 12-Scott Williams, 11-Liam Williams, 10-Dan Biggar, 9-Rhys Webb; 1-Rob Evans, 2-Ken Owens, 3-Tomas Francis, 4-Jake Ball, 5-Alun Wyn Jones, 6-Sam Warburton, 7-Justin Tipuric; 8-Ross Moriarty.

Replacements: 16-Scott Baldwin, 17-Nicky Smith, 18-Samson Lee, 19-Cory Hill, 20-Taulupe Faletau, 21-Gareth Davies, 22-Sam Davies, 23-Jamie Roberts.

ENGLAND

15-Mike Brown, 14-Jack Nowell, 13-Jonathan Joseph, 12-Owen Farrell, 11-Elliot Daly, 10-George Ford, 9-Ben Youngs; 1-Joe Marler, 2-Dylan Hartley (captain), 3-Dan Cole, 4-Joe Launchbury, 5-Courtney Lawes, 6-Maro Itoje, 7-Jack Clifford, 8-Nathan Hughes.

Replacements: 16-Jamie George, 17-Matt Mullan, 18-Kyle Sinckler, 19-Tom Wood, 20-James Haskell, 21-Danny Care, 22-Ben Te'o, 23-Jonny May.

miaow wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

miaow wrote:Asking Sam Davies to start is like going back in time. Fairly certain no-one was rating him before the AIs?

If you did go back in time, you'd see that plenty of people rated him before the AIs.

And also plenty didn't. Great. It doesn't disprove the fickle nature of Welsh fans to #10s, but thanks for trying you troll

How the hell is he trolling ? Which nation's rugby fans ALL agree on the aptitude of their players ?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

miaow wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

miaow wrote:Asking Sam Davies to start is like going back in time. Fairly certain no-one was rating him before the AIs?

If you did go back in time, you'd see that plenty of people rated him before the AIs.

And also plenty didn't. Great. It doesn't disprove the fickle nature of Welsh fans to #10s, but thanks for trying you troll

It disproves your assertion that no one rated him before the AIs. That was all I wanted to do.

It's a figure of idiomatic speech for emphasis, Luckless, Gormless, Brainless, Senseless...

And also true.

That's Miaow's modus operandi. If someone dares point out a flaw in his thinking, he turns on them.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:That's Miaow's modus operandi. If someone dares point out a flaw in his thinking, he turns on them.

Poor dab

Sam Davies won Juniour player of the year in 2013, Clifford was one of the other nominees. Savea was the other, and already has any many caps as both of them combined.

Whilst they might both be seen as young and raw, its not outrageous to be talking of them as possible starters and they arent players who have come oput of nowhere overnight. In Cliffords case though its coming about through the injury crisis, not because hes demanding selection. Davies has done everything he can to pressure Biggar, although Id still be surprised to see the change for such a big pressure game.

The England fans are just as fickle on their fly halves, how long did they demand Farrell be dropped for Ford?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:That's Miaow's modus operandi. If someone dares point out a flaw in his thinking, he turns on them.

I literally hadn't spoken to you on these boards until a few weeks ago. Never. Since then, you've only ever quoted phrases from my posts on these boards where you've misinterpreted figures of speech. Now, instead of asking for clarification (or, you know, stopping and thinking for a few moments) relating to the meaning, you've WUM'd/trolled, whatever you want to call it: you've baited with the sole intention of derailing the thread.

Either you understand idiomatic speech or you don't. It seems like the latter. You have misinterpreted me several times. If you have an inability to discern when words are being used colloquially for emphasis and when they are being used literally (i.e. "no-one" can be used in both these ways depending on the context), then it's best to check REMOVED Definitely better to ask the poster before hand, rather than smugly declaring yourself to have found fault, when- evidently- it's a misinterpretation on your part.

If however as I suspect it is willful misinterpretation, then it is the very definition of a troll.

And who says I'm a "he"?

Guys, what is your problem on here ?

I like the fact that miaow takes the effort to give the replies he gives on here, if other members cannot be bothered to read them properly and digest them and take them the way they are meant to, then that really is the problem of the member reading them, not the member writing them.

Too much 'Member' talk from you Lord. If you keep it up I'm going to have to demand that you're suspended from this family friendly site.

There you go again, Miaow - condescension. That's your default setting when someone has the temerity to point out when you're wrong.

LordDowlais wrote:Guys, what is your problem on here ?

I like the fact that miaow takes the effort to give the replies he gives on here, if other members cannot be bothered to read them properly and digest them and take them the way they are meant to, then that really is the problem of the member reading them, not the member writing them.

Christ, we've woken up Andy Bowell

Ahhhhhhh...the peace before a Wales vs England match.

Scottrf wrote:Ahhhhhhh...the peace before a Wales vs England match.

I blame the Irish

I don't think Wood a much of a miss but obviously it depends how the backrow plays.

Wood gave away quite a few penalties and lacks power.

Clifford is inexperienced but hopefully he can offer more.

I think you find that players can raise their performance if others are perform.

The overall England performance was a bit flat and till the bench came on there wasn't really any spark/drive.

The backrow need to help each other.

beshocked wrote:The overall England performance was a bit flat and till the bench came on and till they brought their All Blacks/Samoans on there wasn't really any spark/drive.

There fixed that one for you.

Gooseberry wrote:The England fans are just as fickle on their fly halves, how long did they demand Farrell be dropped for Ford?

No chance. You've had Andy Goode and Charlie Hodgson in recent years. There'd be revolution in Wales if that happened (rightly or wrongly). It's a unique kind of monster in Wales surrounding the Welsh #10 shirt, which you can only understand if you experience it. Rhys Priestland literally had to leave the country because of it. It's genuinely bordering on something spritual and religious in Wales.

No, there was very little being said about Sam Davies in terms of Wales even during the NZ Tour. I remember praising him and- as I have done now- calling him twice the footballer Biggar is. Many shot me down, admittedly Mikey/Saint/Nige was one of them, but he wasn't the sole suspect. Now that he's showed a glimpse of promise, rather than let him mature in his own time, we have this fasination with the "sink or swim" initiation in the Welsh rugby team.

It's the messiah complex. This belief that the outside half is somehow special, sacrosanct. If he's good enough, he's old enough, and if he is the messiah, well, he'll pass the test with flying colours, regardless of age, circumstance...whatever. It's exactly that: sink, and you just prove to everyone that you weren't the messiah, onto the next one. Swim, and you'll be able to swim for the rest of your career...even if that's not the case, i.e. Priestland. The problem is we've had enough swimmers, the last being Hook, to maintain this myth as something that still holds a shred of rationality to it, even when all evidence suggests throwing him in at the deep end isn't the best option.

It's exacerbated by casual fans who don't watch club rugby, who see someone do something good in the red shirt, and- whipped up by an irresponsible media machine- the hype spreads around the country until it becomes unbearable, and even the Head Coach has to answer calls about who will be playing outside half for Wales in the next game, when in fact the issues are more likely to be the scrum, or the lineout, or...etc.

So no, it's simply not the same in England. I don't think it's the same in any country specific to one position. Perhaps NZ at #7 post McCaw, but who knows, they're a more educated Rugby country than Wales is generally, I think.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:There you go again, Miaow - condescension. That's your default setting when someone has the temerity to point out when you're wrong.

Show me where I'm wrong rather than where you've misinterpreted me, and I'll glady oblige.

In the meantime, try to add something constructive to the topic at hand.

How much do you rate Sam Davies? Would you start him? If so, or if not, why?

Scottrf wrote:Ahhhhhhh...the peace before a Wales vs England match.

I was thinking the same thing.  For a bunch of folks that's had a happy weekend.................  the amount of long faces makes it appear more like a Dentist's waiting room.

Brains or Brains SA?

miaow wrote:No, there was very little being said about Sam Davies in terms of Wales even during the NZ Tour. I remember praising him and- as I have done now- calling him twice the footballer Biggar is. Many shot me down, admittedly Mikey/Saint/Nige was one of them, but he wasn't the sole suspect. Now that he's showed a glimpse of promise, rather than let him mature in his own time, we have this fasination with the "sink or swim" initiation in the Welsh rugby team

I agree with this 100%

It's the same with people demanding Keelan Giles start on the wing, or Ashton Hewitt. They would rather see Liam Williams at full back and one of those two on the wing, and leave Halfpenny out, it's just pure madness.

TightHEAD wrote:Brains or Brains SA?

Penderyn

It may be true there is a bit of a mythology around the No 10 in Wales, but there is a more rational case for Sam Davies' inclusion too, which has been made by quite a few former players who are now pundits. It's not just a case of fans seeing a couple of things go well for him and deciding he should be stuck in there.

Not sure where the Irish supposedly being arrogant comes from, that's not my observation or experience.

miaow wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Brains or Brains SA?

Penderyn

I don't live that far away from that distillery. There are some lovely tipples from that neck of the woods. Wales best kept secret.

Winzer wrote:It may be true there is a bit of a mythology around the No 10 in Wales, but there is a more rational case for Sam Davies' inclusion too, which has been made by quite a few former players who are now pundits.  It's not just a case of fans seeing a couple of things go well for him and deciding he should be stuck in there.  

Not sure where the Irish supposedly being arrogant comes from, that's not my observation or experience.

Sam Davies is being included though, he is being managed correctly as well.

LordDowlais wrote:

miaow wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Brains or Brains SA?

Penderyn

I don't live that far away from that distillery. There are some lovely tipples from that neck of the woods. Wales best kept secret.

Hardly a secret anymore, I had some in a bar in Amsterdam and you can get it in most airports.

munkian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

miaow wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Brains or Brains SA?

Penderyn

I don't live that far away from that distillery. There are some lovely tipples from that neck of the woods. Wales best kept secret.

Hardly a secret anymore, I had some in a bar in Amsterdam and you can get it in most airports.

Can you ?

Well, you learn something new every day.

Have you ever been to the distillery ?

I see Sean Edwards has just said in relation to Sam Davies: "Sometimes the best attacking players are best in last 20 mins."

Is that right? Obviously that's when you're most likely to see the dramatic rewards, but is it really better to have 60 minutes of toothless attack first? Wouldn't it challenge and tire the opposing defence more to have to cope with an effective attack from the start? If that's the choice. It did look a bit that way on Sunday. He also said that when Sam Davies came on, Wales had the ball. True, but it was also true for a long spell in the first half in which they scored no points and looked fairly purposeless.

True that Biggar's defence is awesome, though.

Winzer wrote:It may be true there is a bit of a mythology around the No 10 in Wales, but there is a more rational case for Sam Davies' inclusion too, which has been made by quite a few former players who are now pundits.  It's not just a case of fans seeing a couple of things go well for him and deciding he should be stuck in there.  

Not sure where the Irish supposedly being arrogant comes from, that's not my observation or experience.

It's more than "a bit". Anything to do with Max Boyce, and you know you're in trouble.

http://monologues.co.uk/Sport/Outside_Half_Factory.htm

Yeah, Sam Davies will replace Dan Biggar as the starting outside half in the forseeable future. He's the best footballing 10 we've had since Hook. That said, now's not the time. I and many others have posted the reasons why, and as yet I really don't see how- against England- anyone can make a valid case for starting him over Biggar if Biggar recovers from his rib injury.

If he doesn't, then game on, and good luck to him. I hope he flourishes and that England don't 'get to him'. But cross that bridge when we have to.

I did the tour on holiday last summer. Quite impressive and I did like the portwood finish. My wife polished off their gin pretty quickly as well.

Wood is cleared to play.

Poorfour wrote:I did the tour on holiday last summer. Quite impressive and I did like the portwood finish. My wife polished off their gin pretty quickly as well.

I like their vodka, it is very smooth. Did you see the prices for a single shot of some of the rarer stuff ? OMG.

TightHEAD wrote:Wood is cleared to play.

Well he's a team member so it's obvious.

SecretFly wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Wood is cleared to play.

Well he's a team member so it's obvious.

They havent named the team, unless they are trying to literally get one up on wales before kick off by fielding 24 players.

According to WO, Faletau is likely to be on bench so backrow should stay the same

Fitness doubts are North and Biggar and im on my knees praying North passes a late fitness test, cos the alternatvie is not too worrying

miaow wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:There you go again, Miaow - condescension. That's your default setting when someone has the temerity to point out when you're wrong.

Show me where I'm wrong rather than where you've misinterpreted me, and I'll glady oblige.

In the meantime, try to add something constructive to the topic at hand.

How much do you rate Sam Davies? Would you start him? If so, or if not, why?

miaow wrote:Asking Sam Davies to start is like going back in time. Fairly certain no-one was rating him before the AIs?

That isn't / wasn't the case, and I said so. That's all I did. In response, you called me a troll, amongst other things.

Anyway, I'm happy for us to get back to the rugby.

I personally think it's better to start a game strong rather than finish well but that's just me.

Does seem like a Welsh tactic to finish the game strong, going by many examples of this with Gatland,Edwards,Howley etc in charge.

I just think if you leave yourself too much to do in the final 20 then it puts too much pressure on the side.

Not as if England will get weaker if players like Haskell and George come off the bench.

Davies might be wasted on the bench because England's pack are likely to get a boost from those two.



http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/seven-things-wales-focus-against-12558088


I think this is quite an interesting article actually.

It would be good to have George North in the team, although I don't think Stef Evans would be a disaster. I'm thinking back to the days of Simon Hill and Glen Webbe... I suppose we'd have a relative small back 3 then, although 1/2p and LW make up for it with guts.

Winzer wrote:It would be good to have George North in the team, although I don't think Stef Evans would be a disaster.  I'm thinking back to the days of Simon Hill and Glen Webbe...  I suppose we'd have a relative small back 3 then, although 1/2p and LW make up for it with guts.

I'd be happy for him to be picked, its Cuthbert im worried about. The Japanese took him for a ride, I dread to see what England would do to him

Yikes, had forgotten about Cuthbert. I think the vilification of Cuthbert has been over the top, he's not been playing so badly this year, but I wouldn't want to see him in against England.

Winzer wrote:Yikes, had forgotten about Cuthbert.  I think the vilification of Cuthbert has been over the top, he's not been playing so badly this year, but I wouldn't want to see him in against England.

We could put Adam Jones there if Brown is on the wing too

TightHEAD wrote:Wood is cleared to play.

Where have you seen this ?

I'd be inclined to put Half on wing with Liam and Sam Davies at 10 and 15.

munkian wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Wood is cleared to play.

Where have you seen this ?

fake news.

Gwlad wrote:

munkian wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Wood is cleared to play.

Where have you seen this ?

fake news.

Gutted, wish he was playing.

Tipuric seems to be a luxury player to me and doesn't seem to do the core work, preferring to do the flashy stuff and hide out on the wing. He's also got a huge nose.

I think he could get seriously dismantled.

Cyril wrote:Tipuric seems to be a luxury player to me and doesn't seem to do the core work, preferring to do the flashy stuff and hide out on the wing. He's also got a huge nose.

I think he could get seriously dismantled.

He missed his first tackle since last 6 Nations during the Italy match, if you're going to WUM at least have an inkling of what you are talking about

munkian wrote:

Cyril wrote:Tipuric seems to be a luxury player to me and doesn't seem to do the core work, preferring to do the flashy stuff and hide out on the wing. He's also got a huge nose.

I think he could get seriously dismantled.

He missed his first tackle since last 6 Nations during the Italy match, if you're going to WUM at least have an inkling of what you are talking about

He tends to avoid tackles he's not confident about in order to keep his stats high. It's like Chris Paterson with his kicking.

I'm also highly skeptical of tackling stats.

Cyril wrote:
He tends to avoid tackles he's not confident about in order to keep his stats high. It's like Chris Paterson with his kicking.

I'm also highly skeptical of tackling stats.

I like them - especially the fake ones.  Heasilp had 52 tackles and no misses against Scotland and still the ungrateful Irish fans want him f**ked off the team.

SecretFly wrote:

Cyril wrote:
He tends to avoid tackles he's not confident about in order to keep his stats high. It's like Chris Paterson with his kicking.

I'm also highly skeptical of tackling stats.

I like them - especially the fake ones.  Heasilp had 52 tackles and no misses against Scotland and still the ungrateful Irish fans want him f**ked off the team.

He should be f**cked into the liffey to keep him off the Lions tour