6N 2017: Wales v England, 11 February

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If the team as a whole can deal with it its not a big problem. He's not a revolving door in defence, makes his tackles and for the vast majority of the game Wales weren't threatening a try.

7.5 if it disaster matter when something happens why do you insist on having the last word even if it's the same point you've made several times already?

No 7 & 1/2 we've always disagreed about this. There are some knock ons which end up much crucial than others. Some lineout losses are more important than others.

A try to win the game in the final minutes is much more crucial than a try when the game has already been lost.

A good pass which leads to a try is more important than a good pass that doesn't.

Some missed tackles are more important than others. Some lead to tries, some lead to not much at all.

Cuthbert's missed tackle meant a try for England. If he pushes Daly out, Wales might have won the game.

I notice you've not been giving Marler as much stick as Nowell.

Because it's a forum gooseberry so sometimes people change their mind. We may as well reduce games to 5 min as that's all that matters?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Because it's a forum gooseberry so sometimes people change their mind. We may as well reduce games to 5 min as that's all that matters?

Yeah nobody said that.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Because it's a forum gooseberry so sometimes people change their mind. We may as well reduce games to 5 min as that's all that matters?

What a bizarre comment!

I just did. The 5 min at the end is the important bit any mistakes before don't matter as the team had time to come back. Same as any moments of brilliance. Coaches will be ignoring a players performance if they made 10 mistakes that didn't lead to points while dropping a guy who kicked in field which led onto a try.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I just did. The 5 min at the end is the important bit any mistakes before don't matter as the team had time to come back. Same as any moments of brilliance. Coaches will be ignoring a players performance if they made 10 mistakes that didn't lead to points while dropping a guy who kicked in field which led onto a try.

Just because something matters more, it doesn't mean that the other thing doesn't matter at all.

A quite difficult concept to grasp, I accept.

Why is it bizarre griff? People want to focus on one tiny moment rather than make judgement on a whole game so what's the point of the rest of the game?

Points matter at any time Scott.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is it bizarre griff? People want to focus on one tiny moment rather than make judgement on a whole game so what's the point of the rest of the game?

How exactly would a conversation look where you talk about each moment equally?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Points matter at any time Scott.

Yet your points seem to be pointless.

What do you mean about a conversion? No need for insults Scott.

No 7&1/2 wrote:What do you mean about a conversion? No need for insults Scott.

He said conversation, not conversion.

Ha. Makes more sense. I guess it would look more balanced. You wouldn't have people looking at one moment from 80 min of action saying that's where we lost it. Similar to when people make out a mistake from a ref for a pen and potential 3 points is more important than what players can do for 80 plus min.

My overall point is we're all going to talk on small incidents of matches but for me it's important to have a balanced view to not ignore all that went before or after.

no 7 & 1/2 it seems like you are trying to play down the significance of individual incidents.

Cuthbert's missed tackle was just one incident but it was an important error because it meant Daly scored.

Farrell's conversion in itself was important because it meant Wales had to score a try to win the game, not just a penalty for the draw.

Just one small thing but important. Not an easy kick either.

Why would I give Marler stick no 7 & 1/2?

A kick in front of the posts isn't the same as a tough kick so of course there will be more criticism for missing in front of the posts than a very hard one.


Wales also squandered opportunities to take 3 pointers. This was in contrast to England who on the 70 minute took the 3 pointer which meant they were in a better position to push for the try.

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 it seems like you are trying to play down the significance of individual incidents.

Cuthbert's missed tackle was just one incident but it was an important error because it meant Daly scored.

Farrell's conversion in itself was important because it meant Wales had to score a try to win the game, not just a penalty for the draw.

Just one small thing but important. Not an easy kick either.

Why would I give Marler stick no 7 & 1/2?

A kick in front of the posts isn't the same as a tough kick so of course there will be more criticism for missing in front of the posts than a very hard one.


Wales also squandered opportunities to take 3 pointers. This was in contrast to England who on the 70 minute took the 3 pointer which meant they were in a better position to push for the try.

I thought Wales try was a direct result of the sustained pressure by turning down those penalties. We don't have the counter-factual, they might have been missed or England may have pinned them back from the resultant kick-off and scored themselves.

More damaging to Wales was the forward pass to Biggar when he had a run in to score.

And beshocked you're kindling making my point. Why are Wales choices for scrums etc less of a mistake now than a kick and a missed tackle. How do we quantify a skewed lineout as I significant when for all we know would have led to 7 points. That's the reason I focus on what the mistake was rather than a definitive it led to 5 points so that's the key point/mistake.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Because it's a forum gooseberry so sometimes people change their mind. We may as well reduce games to 5 min as that's all that matters?

Endless ramming an opinion down others throats by repeating the same point isn't a great way to get them to listen or adapt their thinking. It just turn the forum into a tit tat detail battle and yawn fest.
I'll just tune in for the travelling minute highlight package where Beshocked mentions a saracens player and you say the opposite.

The day you change your opinion based on arguments presented by others on here which contradicted your initial view because you'd taken the time to parse it out its an open mind and accepted that not every case is black and white one or the other..well then it won't be you will it.

Glad of the win in the end but my biggest gripe is how many turnovers England concededed in threatening positions. Although credit the Welsh defence for that. Knocking on the Welsh try line at least 3 times if memory serves only to gave it away each time. We're going to have to more clinical if we hope to retain the championship.

Probably not goose as no one has put a decent argument yet.

I do think that Wales were visibly crumbling in the last few minutes. They could have held on for the win but I also think they would have been lucky to do so.

Even if Jonathan Davies would have found touch I still think England would have scored from the line out. They were the better team and they deserved to win although Wales played very well.

Just watching this game back for the first time.

Have to say Garces was very weak with the Welsh. Both Webb and AWJ have hollywooded it so far. They continuously kick the ball away when a penalty has been given against them. On another day they would of had at least 2 yellows.

nathan wrote:Just watching this game back for the first time.

Have to say Garces was very weak with the Welsh. Both Webb and AWJ have hollywooded it so far. They continuously kick the ball away when a penalty has been given against them. On another day they would of had at least 2 yellows.

Hush now. We were just lucky that they took pity on us and let us win, when they could have opted for the victory they so richly deserved. We should be grateful for what we've been given and look forward to our inevitable thrashing by Ireland.

Just remembered something from the game, which another viewing seems to confirm.

When Te'o made his line break just after the 74th minute, I was sure Danny Care was in the clear. The pass wasn't bad, and it looked like the Welsh cover was at best level with the England man. I expected Care to go under the posts but he stepped to the left instead.

I'm not sure whether Care didn't know he was clear, or whether he had a better appreciation than me of how likely he would be hauled down. Probably the latter, but I'm sure I've seen him scoot over from similar positions.

I've tried to grab two screenshots from the video on YouTube to illustrate the point.

Interesting shots RF.

I think the key is in looking at how Halfpenny moves between the first and second shots. He's changed his angle to intercept Care and looks to be moving fast enough that he will make the tackle.

All the white shirts in the picture are to the left of Care. If he runs straight or goes right, he is running away from his support. I suspect he was aware of Halfpenny coming in and wanted to give his team the best chance to recycle the ball.

Poorfour wrote:

nathan wrote:Just watching this game back for the first time.

Have to say Garces was very weak with the Welsh. Both Webb and AWJ have hollywooded it so far. They continuously kick the ball away when a penalty has been given against them. On another day they would of had at least 2 yellows.

Hush now. We were just lucky that they took pity on us and let us win, when they could have opted for the victory they so richly deserved. We should be grateful for what we've been given and look forward to our inevitable thrashing by Ireland.

Any need for this, Poorfour? No-one is saying that Wales deserved to win. From reading back all I can see is English v English arguing about what constitutes a 'decisive moment'. Why the sarcasm and dig?

Griff wrote:Any need for this, Poorfour?  No-one is saying that Wales deserved to win.  From reading back all I can see is English v English arguing about what constitutes a 'decisive moment'.  Why the sarcasm and dig?  

Not on this thread, to be fair. But I was (possibly over) reacting to a combination of rodders talking down England's winning streak and Dan Jones in the Evening Standard just barely managing to admit that England are doing quite well at the moment. Why a London paper employs a rugby correspondent who so blatantly hates English rugby is beyond me.

Gooseberry wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Because it's a forum gooseberry so sometimes people change their mind. We may as well reduce games to 5 min as that's all that matters?

Endless ramming an opinion down others throats by repeating the same point isn't a great way to get them to listen or adapt their thinking.  It just turn the forum into a tit tat detail battle and yawn fest.
I'll just tune in for the travelling minute highlight package where Beshocked mentions a saracens player and you say the opposite.

The day you change your opinion based on arguments presented by others on here which contradicted your initial view because you'd taken the time to parse it out its an open mind and accepted that not every case is black and white one or the other..well then it won't be you will it.

I frequently have praised non Saracens players but those comments are ignored. I have even had to back track a bit because players I didn't think would do well have.

Daly has done well on the wing so far in my opinion. Something I didn't expect. He's backed up the hype. Teo seems to have done well so far off the bench too.

I've changed my perception on some players. I remember a couple of years I thought Haskell was poor and only able to put 1 good performance in 5 matches at international level but under this new England management Haskell is a much superior player. Haskell seems to relish his role.


Lancaster wasn't as bad a coach as I sometimes make out but you can see the differences between this regime and Lancaster's. Jones' usage of the bench is far more organic, not regimented and fixed. He looks at the situation and adapts. You could see the difference between England's ending of the RWC 2015 game vs Wales and the 2017 one.

Jones isn't perfect, this England side is not perfect. There's still plenty of work to be done. 16 wins is really good but to get to NZ's level, England need to keep building and getting stronger. England in my opinion are not yet the finished article.

Full back is an area that England need to sort out, before you say it, no I am not saying Goode is that person who can do it. Brown I think has his qualities but far too frequently I feel he doesn't look for passes, have the vision.

Hogg has started this 6 nations with a bang and in comparison to him Brown is not at the same level. If England are to aspire to be the best in the world they need to push the boundaries in every position.

As for centre, I am still not convinced, Farrell is the long term solution, he's been solid but still my ideal 12 and 13 - is a combination of brawn and brains.


https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2017/feb/14/eddie-jones-replacements-england

Interesting article about the replacements of course the thing that stands out for me -

That is not to ignore the statistics. They tell us that while Dylan Hartley made six tackles and five carries in his 46 minutes on the pitch in Cardiff, his replacement, Jamie George surpassed him with 12 and eight.

Poorfour wrote:

Griff wrote:Any need for this, Poorfour?  No-one is saying that Wales deserved to win.  From reading back all I can see is English v English arguing about what constitutes a 'decisive moment'.  Why the sarcasm and dig?  

Not on this thread, to be fair. But I was (possibly over) reacting to a combination of rodders talking down England's winning streak and Dan Jones in the Evening Standard just barely managing to admit that England are doing quite well at the moment. Why a London paper employs a rugby correspondent who so blatantly hates English rugby is beyond me.

You realise Dan Jones is English though, right? Don't let the name fool you!

Great article made me chuckle..

http://www.walesoncraic.com/police-called-principality-stadium-investigate-daylight-robbery/

Griff wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

Griff wrote:Any need for this, Poorfour?  No-one is saying that Wales deserved to win.  From reading back all I can see is English v English arguing about what constitutes a 'decisive moment'.  Why the sarcasm and dig?  

Not on this thread, to be fair. But I was (possibly over) reacting to a combination of rodders talking down England's winning streak and Dan Jones in the Evening Standard just barely managing to admit that England are doing quite well at the moment. Why a London paper employs a rugby correspondent who so blatantly hates English rugby is beyond me.

You realise Dan Jones is English though, right?  Don't let the name fool you!

Stuart Barnes is English... and a huge Anglophobe. Didn't stop him stealing a media career. Mind you, the fact he's a complete tool didn't seem to hinder him either.

Griff wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

Griff wrote:Any need for this, Poorfour?  No-one is saying that Wales deserved to win.  From reading back all I can see is English v English arguing about what constitutes a 'decisive moment'.  Why the sarcasm and dig?  

Not on this thread, to be fair. But I was (possibly over) reacting to a combination of rodders talking down England's winning streak and Dan Jones in the Evening Standard just barely managing to admit that England are doing quite well at the moment. Why a London paper employs a rugby correspondent who so blatantly hates English rugby is beyond me.

You realise Dan Jones is English though, right?  Don't let the name fool you!

In his column post this weekend's game he described crying over the result in Cardiff. If he is from the wrong side of Offa's Dyke, he certainly sympathises with those on the right side.

Stephen Jones is Welsh and yet he's a big fan of England (journalist not player).

Poorfour wrote:In his column post this weekend's game he described crying over the result in Cardiff. If he is from the wrong side of Offa's Dyke, he certainly sympathises with those on the right side.

If it's the same Dan Jones, I think he is Welsh.

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/euro2016/dan-jones-we-thought-football-was-not-for-us-in-wales-this-team-has-built-new-future-a3288266.html

Poorfour wrote:

Griff wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

Griff wrote:Any need for this, Poorfour?  No-one is saying that Wales deserved to win.  From reading back all I can see is English v English arguing about what constitutes a 'decisive moment'.  Why the sarcasm and dig?  

Not on this thread, to be fair. But I was (possibly over) reacting to a combination of rodders talking down England's winning streak and Dan Jones in the Evening Standard just barely managing to admit that England are doing quite well at the moment. Why a London paper employs a rugby correspondent who so blatantly hates English rugby is beyond me.

You realise Dan Jones is English though, right?  Don't let the name fool you!

In his column post this weekend's game he described crying over the result in Cardiff. If he is from the wrong side of Offa's Dyke, he certainly sympathises with those on the right side.

Is it not this Dan Jones, born in England to Welsh parents. Doesn't sound like he's ever spent time in Wales. Reading born, Buckingham raised, Cambridge educated, lives in Battersea. Writes sport for the London Evening Standard, according to wiki.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Jones_(writer)

Griff wrote:

Is it not this Dan Jones, born in England to Welsh parents.  Doesn't sound like he's ever spent time in Wales.  Reading born, Buckingham raised, Cambridge educated, lives in Battersea.  Writes sport for the London Evening Standard, according to wiki.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Jones_(writer)

He's a 'Plastic Paddy' as we call 'em?

The abuse being leveled at Cuthbert is staggering. He got roasted on the outside by Daly with 75 minutes on the clock. He's unfortunate to be the first to suffer this fate in a test match, but I'd bet my mortgage he won't be the last. That lad is lightning.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:The abuse being leveled at Cuthbert is staggering. He got roasted on the outside by Daly with 75 minutes on the clock. He's unfortunate to be the first to suffer this fate in a test match, but I'd bet my mortgage he won't be the last. That lad is lightning.

No one would mind if it was his first error. But it was just another error in a long catalogue of errors that have cost us dear. As myself and others have said many times, it's not Cuthbert's fault he's getting picked. So you've got to feel sorry for the guy. But he clearly comes too far in field and leaves himself too much to do to cover across and make the tackle. He's the winger and it's his wing to cover yet he doesn't make the crucial tackle. Most players would get some sort of criticism for that, just like Hogg is getting criticism for a poor attempt at tackling in the Ficou try even though he is World Player of the Century, or something. But for Cuthbert the last couple of seasons has seen him dropping try scoring passes, being hit in the face by the ball when passed to him when not paying attention on his wing, being out of position for tries, etc., etc. I watched a clip of Wales v Aus (I think) where someone showed the way the ozzies deliberately targeted his wing. He's known as a weak link and teams are exploiting it. And he has no club form by which to justify his inclusion. It's very said and unfair, yes. But true.

SecretFly wrote:

Griff wrote:

Is it not this Dan Jones, born in England to Welsh parents.  Doesn't sound like he's ever spent time in Wales.  Reading born, Buckingham raised, Cambridge educated, lives in Battersea.  Writes sport for the London Evening Standard, according to wiki.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Jones_(writer)

He's a 'Plastic Paddy' as we call 'em?

Isn't that someone who pretends to be Irish without actually being very Irish? Not sure that Dan Jones is pretending to be anything other than English! He just happens to have a Welsh sounding surname. Incidentally I heard that Jones is the most common surname in the USA, so perhaps he's a plastic yank?!

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:The abuse being leveled at Cuthbert is staggering. He got roasted on the outside by Daly with 75 minutes on the clock. He's unfortunate to be the first to suffer this fate in a test match, but I'd bet my mortgage he won't be the last. That lad is lightning.

Except that's not the only issue people have with the selection of Cuthbert and Neil Jenkins coming out and saying crap like he's a lions winner so deserves to play winds people up even more

There are several younger players who are playing better than Cuthbert yet can't get a look in and then Cuthbert plays crap when he does get selected. A year ago in the World Cup we got knocked out because Cuthbert got fooled into leaving the touchline. His defensive positional game is non existent but according to Neil Jenkins he won a grand slam 5 years ago so is clearly the best option we have

Sound like even Shane Williams thinks Cuthbert is to blame for Wales loss.


That led to one of Cuthbert's Wales and British and Irish Lions predecessors, Shane Williams, to say he should not face Scotland when the Six Nations resumes for Wales on Saturday, 25 Februar

majesticimperialman wrote:Sound like even Shane Williams  thinks Cuthbert is to blame for Wales loss.


That led to one of Cuthbert's Wales and British and Irish Lions predecessors, Shane Williams, to say he should not face Scotland when the Six Nations resumes for Wales on Saturday, 25 Februar

Williams not thinking he should start does not necessarily mean he thinks he's to blame for the loss. He might just think, like the rest of us, that Cuthbert is out of form and needs to be dropped. Without reading the full article it's hard to tell. Got a link Maj?

Griff wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Sound like even Shane Williams  thinks Cuthbert is to blame for Wales loss.


That led to one of Cuthbert's Wales and British and Irish Lions predecessors, Shane Williams, to say he should not face Scotland when the Six Nations resumes for Wales on Saturday, 25 Februar

Williams not thinking he should start does not necessarily mean he thinks he's to blame for the loss. He might just think, like the rest of us, that Cuthbert is out of form and needs to be dropped. Without reading the full article it's hard to tell. Got a link Maj?

It's in the Fail Griff

On the one hand i admire the loyalty, watch Cuthbert on the Lions tour and he is unrecognizable to the guy we see today….his try in the first test is taken on an almost impossibly well run line.

But that guy is fecking gone, long gone. And while players deserve loyalty so do they also deserve honesty. Everyone knows he is the weak link because he is actually an unco-ordinated ex horse rider with poor eye to hand and manual dexterity and zero aggression little appreciation for tactical and positional rugby who happens to be really quick in open space, and large.

He's been found out and its time to hang up his international and lions boots and regard them as his Everest.

Shane put the blame on the coaching staff for picking someone who is bang out of form.

Cuthbert may be getting the blame for the loss but ultimately Wales don't consistently score enough tries. They had plenty of possession and territory but one try generally doesn't win test matches anymore, even at home.

Recwatcher16 wrote:Cuthbert may be getting the blame for the loss but ultimately Wales don't consistently score enough tries. They had plenty of possession and territory but one try generally doesn't win test matches anymore, even at home.

True but unless you're NZ its defences that win games. Cuthbert was clueless, he rushed up next to Doc when he needed to stick him opposite number and slow the attack to give enough time for defenders to get across, Daly didn't even have to think about it because Cuthbert gave him the outside while outside the 22.

Gatland admits it was tough watching England destroy Wales, he also states he tried to stay away from Rob and the Boys but did pass on some information he obtained from watching England train in his Lions role.

That explains where their performance came from seeing as they found it hard to turn over Japan in the Autumn.