6N 2017: Wales v England, 11 February

eirebilly wrote:I know it was a great pass that sent Daly away but doesn't anyone think that Cuthbert should be making the tackle there or at least ankle tapping him? I thought it was a feeble attempt myself.

SecretFly wrote:

cascough wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Same tactic...same dumb move.  I always say don't be kicking back to hard-running sides willing to come back at pace and using that momentum of the catch so far up field to become virtually unstoppable.

England pounced...but it WAS a massive bloody mistake.

Of course it was, but the game didn't hinge on Davies missing touch. That entire situation only existed because of everything that had gone before.

The situation didn't have to be kicked away so hopelessly.  The difference in the final score is the try.  I think everyone that watched that game gulped when they saw that one going off - I think a lot of people were mouthing, "What the f**k?"

milkyboy wrote:

cascough wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

cascough wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:The Welsh try was caused by bad defending by Nowell. He tried to track the Welsh winger but was too late. You will find it was Nowell who made the last gasp attempt at a tackle. Nowell let his opposition through, simple.

Agree entirely.

Credit to Wales, it was a lovely strike move, but our midfield did exactly as it should have done. Farrell hit S Williams and Joseph marked Davies. If Farrell gambles and hits L Williams instead but the ball is given to S Williams on the crash then it's a defensive error and S Williams is walking it in. If Joseph gambles and steps into L Williams  and the ball goes out the back then Davies is waltzing through a huge hole.

As it is, neither gambles, they both stick to their job. What was needed was Nowell to stick to his man and track L Williams sooner, especially given that L Williams had just been up to Webb and given him the call (although I appreciate just because the TV cameras picked that up in real time doesn't necessarily mean Nowell could have easily spotted it).

Miaow, your original point was that Joseph lacked the physicality to defend at 13 in Gatlands system. You've now switched to trying to pick up on any defensive mistakes he makes. Even if you think this is one, which I don't for the reasons I've explained above, it doesn't pertain to your original point.

It looks very much like you've made a snap judgement without really thinking about it or looking at the evidence and are now trying to justify that afterwards.

I'm no defensive coach, so I'm not claiming to know who has responsibility for what in every situation. I'm happy to buy into nowell being slow to get across. It looks like he was very late setting off. It also looked to me like Joseph continued to step up when the rest of the defensive line held... creating a hole you could drive a bus through. At what point does situational awareness trump marking your man and trusting the system?

But what situation should Joseph have been aware of?

It was perfectly executed and it wasn't until the last second that it was clear which man it was going to.

... the situation that they had a spare man.  Looked to me he had stepped up out of position, had he held his position he'd have had a choice to make about whether to leave his man for williams. Clearly, had nowell got across it's a decision he wouldn't have to make regardless.

It was a well executed move, but the way some are talking, a few dummy runners and a pop up pass is unstoppable from first phase if executed correctly. I doubt the england coaching staff see it that way.

SecretFly wrote:

cascough wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Same tactic...same dumb move.  I always say don't be kicking back to hard-running sides willing to come back at pace and using that momentum of the catch so far up field to become virtually unstoppable.

England pounced...but it WAS a massive bloody mistake.

Of course it was, but the game didn't hinge on Davies missing touch. That entire situation only existed because of everything that had gone before.

The situation didn't have to be kicked away so hopelessly.  The difference in the final score is the try.  I think everyone that watched that game gulped when they saw that one going off - I think a lot of people were mouthing, "What the f**k?"

cascough wrote:The difference in the score was 5 points. England scored 21 in the match. They came throughout the match. Each one of those points was preventable, why is this mistake (harsh on Sinckler, btw. two sides to every story) any more important than others players have made in the lead up to the other 14 of Englands points.

TightHEAD wrote:Has anyone talked about Farrells pass?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Tactic to kick in field all game I'd say Scott. I'm not really a big fan of picking out 1 instance or set of plays from a whole game and blaming that point though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I've seen better kicks but I saw worse mistakes through the match as well.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah so a mistake that leads to a try after 20 min is a lesser event than the same mistake in the last 5 min. A mistake which is punished is worse than 1 which isn't.  Can't agree. Why bad winners Griffin.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah so a mistake that leads to a try after 20 min is a lesser event than the same mistake in the last 5 min. A mistake which is punished is worse than 1 which isn't.  Can't agree. Why bad winners Griffin.

Griff wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah so a mistake that leads to a try after 20 min is a lesser event than the same mistake in the last 5 min. A mistake which is punished is worse than 1 which isn't.  Can't agree. Why bad winners Griffin.

A lack of grace creeping into the posts since the win.  Look above.

Also, Griffin?!  The mythical bird lion thing?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ha auto correct!

So the same mistake in the last 5 you judge differently on outcome then Scott.  If Bigger runs in the intercept Youngs has made a horrendous mistake whereas it was smaller as Daly has serious pace. The game is 80 min not 5.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ha auto correct!

So the same mistake in the last 5 you judge differently on outcome then Scott.  If Bigger runs in the intercept Youngs has made a horrendous mistake whereas it was smaller as Daly has serious pace. The game is 80 min not 5.

Griff wrote:Christ, I can't wait 'til you lot lose!  Talk about bad winners.  

And yes, I'm aware that I've bitten what the WUMs have offered when I should just ignore it

Gooseberry wrote:Under different circumstances we could be slagging off Ford for booting possession away a few minutes earlier and totally overcooking it.  
Sometimes it's not the decision that's the problem its the execution.  The Welsh Chap did neither terribly well.

Yes of course it's one moment in a game and by no means the only piece of bad play and decision making. But when one side has been on top in terms of play and points for the majority of the game you're going to highlight a moment where they gift wrapped a game changing chance and somehow ended up losing.

England are riding their luck a bit. Playing into that is their fitness and confidence not to panic or give up...but sooner or later they will be on the wrong end of a piece of fortune or great play that makes the difference.  They look vulnerable against decent but not great France and Wales sides. If they don't figure out how to get their own attack firing again then I really fancy Ireland to do them a kipper.

Griff wrote:I'm with Scott and others on this too.  If Cuthbert had made the tackle you may not have won the game, or more importantly you may not have had the time to win the game as the subsequent lineout, etc. may have taken a few minutes.  However, had that incident been much earlier in the game and Cuthbert made the tackle, 20 or 30 mins earlier for example, then there might have been plenty of time.  This is why us Welsh fans are so annoyed with Cuthbert.  He gave him too much room on the outside.  Had he made the tackle (ifs and buts) I reckon we might have won.  We had another defender close at hand to secure the ruck.  We may have even got a turnover as the rest of the English players were quite far away.  Ifs and buts though, as I say!  But certainly it was close enough to the end of the game to potentially be the last significant play of the game.  So timing of the incident was very important and Wales did not have enough time to score points to turn it back around themselves.

Griff wrote:I'm with Scott and others on this too.  If Cuthbert had made the tackle you may not have won the game, or more importantly you may not have had the time to win the game as the subsequent lineout, etc. may have taken a few minutes.  However, had that incident been much earlier in the game and Cuthbert made the tackle, 20 or 30 mins earlier for example, then there might have been plenty of time.  This is why us Welsh fans are so annoyed with Cuthbert.  He gave him too much room on the outside.  Had he made the tackle (ifs and buts) I reckon we might have won.  We had another defender close at hand to secure the ruck.  We may have even got a turnover as the rest of the English players were quite far away.  Ifs and buts though, as I say!  But certainly it was close enough to the end of the game to potentially be the last significant play of the game.  So timing of the incident was very important and Wales did not have enough time to score points to turn it back around themselves.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Griff wrote:I'm with Scott and others on this too.  If Cuthbert had made the tackle you may not have won the game, or more importantly you may not have had the time to win the game as the subsequent lineout, etc. may have taken a few minutes.  However, had that incident been much earlier in the game and Cuthbert made the tackle, 20 or 30 mins earlier for example, then there might have been plenty of time.  This is why us Welsh fans are so annoyed with Cuthbert.  He gave him too much room on the outside.  Had he made the tackle (ifs and buts) I reckon we might have won.  We had another defender close at hand to secure the ruck.  We may have even got a turnover as the rest of the English players were quite far away.  Ifs and buts though, as I say!  But certainly it was close enough to the end of the game to potentially be the last significant play of the game.  So timing of the incident was very important and Wales did not have enough time to score points to turn it back around themselves.

Cuthbert is rubbish, but it's not his fault he keeps getting picked.

Secondly Davis (golden boy JD2) did him and the rest of the Welsh team no favours at all. That ball should have been punted into the stands instead of being punted down the throat and into the hands to such a dangerous winger like Daly. England were smelling blood and ready to pounce on the defence (stretched beyond the breaking point) that didn't have time to reset.

Cuthbert left too much of a gap but Davis put his team under all kinds of pressure with such a dreadful clearing kick.

majesticimperialman wrote:It all comes down to who is to blame for the England try at the end of the game?

Is it Alex Cuthbert for not making that tackle on Daily?

Or is it Johnathon Davies clearance kick?

cascough wrote:

Griff wrote:I'm with Scott and others on this too.  If Cuthbert had made the tackle you may not have won the game, or more importantly you may not have had the time to win the game as the subsequent lineout, etc. may have taken a few minutes.  However, had that incident been much earlier in the game and Cuthbert made the tackle, 20 or 30 mins earlier for example, then there might have been plenty of time.  This is why us Welsh fans are so annoyed with Cuthbert.  He gave him too much room on the outside.  Had he made the tackle (ifs and buts) I reckon we might have won.  We had another defender close at hand to secure the ruck.  We may have even got a turnover as the rest of the English players were quite far away.  Ifs and buts though, as I say!  But certainly it was close enough to the end of the game to potentially be the last significant play of the game.  So timing of the incident was very important and Wales did not have enough time to score points to turn it back around themselves.

If if if.

If Garces had pinged the clearly illegal L Williams at the breakdown (and probably binned him) what happened would be totally different.

Don't you see? Even in that 1 play, there were a multitude of things happening or things that could have happened. It's never as simple as picking on 1 thing and decreeing that that decides the game.

It might make for a more lively discussion to hang it on 1 moment, but in truth it was a really even game that over the 80 minutes England just edged.

The whole "England were outplayed for 76 minutes" and "but for a missed kick Wales would have won" are nothing more than newspaper headlines for me. Designed to sensationalise.

Do you really think Wales will be analysing the game this week and say "Right boys, go out and do exactly the same thing as you did for 80 minutes, except kick it out if it's near the end of the game". I don't, I think they will be looking at their decision making and execution throughout the whole game and working on what they might do better. How can they give away less penalties, how can they secure possession better, how do they cut down on individual errors.

Griff wrote:

cascough wrote:

Griff wrote:I'm with Scott and others on this too.  If Cuthbert had made the tackle you may not have won the game, or more importantly you may not have had the time to win the game as the subsequent lineout, etc. may have taken a few minutes.  However, had that incident been much earlier in the game and Cuthbert made the tackle, 20 or 30 mins earlier for example, then there might have been plenty of time.  This is why us Welsh fans are so annoyed with Cuthbert.  He gave him too much room on the outside.  Had he made the tackle (ifs and buts) I reckon we might have won.  We had another defender close at hand to secure the ruck.  We may have even got a turnover as the rest of the English players were quite far away.  Ifs and buts though, as I say!  But certainly it was close enough to the end of the game to potentially be the last significant play of the game.  So timing of the incident was very important and Wales did not have enough time to score points to turn it back around themselves.

If if if.

If Garces had pinged the clearly illegal L Williams at the breakdown (and probably binned him) what happened would be totally different.

Don't you see? Even in that 1 play, there were a multitude of things happening or things that could have happened. It's never as simple as picking on 1 thing and decreeing that that decides the game.

It might make for a more lively discussion to hang it on 1 moment, but in truth it was a really even game that over the 80 minutes England just edged.

The whole "England were outplayed for 76 minutes" and "but for a missed kick Wales would have won" are nothing more than newspaper headlines for me. Designed to sensationalise.

Do you really think Wales will be analysing the game this week and say "Right boys, go out and do exactly the same thing as you did for 80 minutes, except kick it out if it's near the end of the game". I don't, I think they will be looking at their decision making and execution throughout the whole game and working on what they might do better. How can they give away less penalties, how can they secure possession better, how do they cut down on individual errors.

We're talking about timing of incidents in the game.  Had the Davies kick been 20 minutes earlier and still led to a try then who knows?  Maybe Wales could have come back and won it.  That's why, for me, timing of an incident is important.  That's all we're discussing here.

Here's another example:  Australia (Kurtley Beale) scored against Wales after the 80mins was up.  It put them in the lead (Wales were leading up to that point) from which it was impossible for Wales to come back as time was up.  So timing is important.  Yes, what goes before it gets you to that point.  But if there is an incident that leads to points right before the final whistle, or very close, then that is hugely significant as it is nigh on impossible for the other team to come back from it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:If we're talking about mistakes we should focus on what they were not what happened after the mistakes were made. A knock on is a knock on a pass to touch is a pass to touch.

No 7&1/2 wrote:If we're talking about mistakes we should focus on what they were not what happened after the mistakes were made. A knock on is a knock on a pass to touch is a pass to touch.