6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

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IRELAND v ENGLAND
18 March 2017
KO: 17:00 GMT
Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Referee: Jerome Garces (France)
Touch judges: Mathieu Raynal (France) & Marius Mitrea (Italy)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

Live on [BBC, RTE, DMAX, FR2, ITV (H)]

A. Head to Head

131 Played 131
47 Won 76
8 Drawn 8
76 Lost 47
1,079 Points 1,526

B. Recent Form

27 February 2016
Twickenham, London
21 – 10 to England

5 September 2015
Twickenham, London
21 – 13 to England

1 March 2015
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
19 – 9 to Ireland

22 February 2014
Twickenham, London
13 – 10 to England

10 February 2013
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
6 – 12 to England

17 March 2012
Twickenham, London
30 – 9 to England

C. Teams

IRELAND

Payne; Earls, Ringrose, Henshaw, Zebo; Sexton, Marmion; McGrath, Best (captain), Furlong; Ryan, Henderson; Stander, O'Brien, Heaslip,

Replacements: Scannell, Healy, Ryan, Toner, O'Mahony, McGrath, Jackson, Conway.

ENGLAND

Brown; Watson, Joseph, Farrell, Daly; Ford, Youngs; Marler, Hartley (captain), Cole; Launchbury, Lawes; Itoje, Haskell, B Vunipola.

Replacements: George, M Vunipola, Sinckler, Wood, Hughes, Care, Te'o, Nowell.

TrailApe wrote:

I'd also agree that if there was any team we had to lose to I was glad it was Ireland

I heartily concur, although I must admit I was disappointed with the half time entertainment - where were the hang gliding Yaks and the free-form windsock and flegg formation dancing?

just beggars belief.

You should see some of the half-time entertainment at London Irish ...

Cheers, eirebilly. An embodiment of why part of me wished I were in Dublin last night: guaranteed friendly banter. Coincidentally, living here in W Twickenham just bumped into a random Irishman in an Ireland beanie while I had on my England cap. Instantly a wink and a smile and shared kind words. That's rugby for you

Well done Ireland. Good lineout, breakdown and rush defence. Beat us in a few key areas, just not good enough. Tough place to go and we will improve from here.

alfie wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I do think that Itoje will learn and he is only 22 but I feel he will have to learn very quickly before he gets a name for himself and gets focussed on more by ref's. Another ref last night may have acted differently and sent him off for 10.

Agree with this.  I was watching with the sound turned off and at one point I thought he was about to be issued with his marching orders ...and I wasn't going to feel aggrieved.

Much better he keeps his aggression under control.  I'll bet the refs will be watching him a bit closer after this match...

I read somewhere last week that Eddie Jones has been encouraging Itoje to be more aggressive.

I didn't especially notice Itoje being excessively naughty. He knew he was in a game and wanted to leave nothing behind him in effort. Reckless more than heavily cynical.

He needs to bring his tacking down. And generally know where the line is to cut down penalties.

I kept turning away from the match, as if I was the one jinxing England, and hoping that a five minute break would magically turn the scoreline in our favour.

Consequently, my match analysis is a bit underinformed but it just looked like Ireland made sure England didn't get any ball, and England contrived to stuff up whatever possession they did have (under Irish pressure, of course).

Thought Sexton was a real warrior. We always knew that about him but it was especially on show yesterday. Well done, and congratulations, Ireland.

Sin é wrote:

alfie wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I do think that Itoje will learn and he is only 22 but I feel he will have to learn very quickly before he gets a name for himself and gets focussed on more by ref's. Another ref last night may have acted differently and sent him off for 10.

Agree with this.  I was watching with the sound turned off and at one point I thought he was about to be issued with his marching orders ...and I wasn't going to feel aggrieved.

Much better he keeps his aggression under control.  I'll bet the refs will be watching him a bit closer after this match...

I read somewhere last week that Eddie Jones has been encouraging Itoje to be more aggressive.

He is trying to bring the inner feminist out in him. Is this Itojes first loss for England?

Also heard England havent scored a try in Dublin since 2011.

I think Best debunked the theory that he is a bad thrower yesterday. Ireland bossed Englands lineout all day. All in all he has been the top performing hooker in the six nations and in November. Should be nailed on for a Lions spot.

Pity from Englands perspective that conditions were slippery as I fancied we would have success out wide against a pretty flaky Irish back 3. Payne is better than Kearney for me but Kearney seems undroppable when fit even though I think collectively him, Zebo and Earls are weak for international level. O Mahony and Henderson improved the pack and the Irish misfiring lineout was corrected. O Brien and Toner are too much one trick ponies for the very highest level. I think Ireland are better without them. Might be the end of Toner as a starter as I always felt he was there mainly to run the lineout and yesterday showed they are fine without him. Henderson is far more dynamic in the loose. Schmidt does seem to have his favourites though so maybe it was just a wake up call to Toner and he will be back in next time. Henderson I think is a serious player though, mysterious that hes been utilised sparingly by Ireland.

I get the criticisms of Schmidt and I think he polarises opinions despite having an good record because he was seen to be above and beyond criticism for a long time. Hes acheived good results but hes had a very good crop of players available. What I find is that hes overcredited for his acheivements. When Ireland win, its Schmidts masterplan. When they lose, the players didnt play well enough. Im not convinced he picks the strongest 15 available for Ireland, but when a coach is doing well its difficult to criticise.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I think Best debunked the theory that he is a bad thrower yesterday. Ireland bossed Englands lineout all day. All in all he has been the top performing hooker in the six nations and in November. Should be nailed on for a Lions spot.

Best was never a bad thrower. He's an inconsistent thrower. That's the difference.

Kearney was one of the best full backs in this years 6 nations.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I think Best debunked the theory that he is a bad thrower yesterday. Ireland bossed Englands lineout all day. All in all he has been the top performing hooker in the six nations and in November. Should be nailed on for a Lions spot.

Best was never a bad thrower. He's an inconsistent thrower. That's the difference.

He really isnt. Irelands lineout issues werent down to his throws at all. There are many elements to the lineout. Previously we had only two jumpers and therefore our calls were predictable. Most of the lineouts we lost was because opposition defense guessed the call. Nothing to do with the throw. Best being a bad thrower is a myth.

catchweight wrote: What I find is that hes overcredited for his acheivements. When Ireland win, its Schmidts masterplan. When they lose, the players didnt play well enough.

All coaches are over-credited for their achievements.  Look at the reputation Hansen has as a coach.  What did he really do before being All Blacks coach, and what does he really do now when he is gifted with such a nation full of top top talent?  All he has to do is point them in the direction of the opposition and let them loose.  I joke a bit but, really, the New Zealand system relies on virtually all coaches in that Nation adding to the sum of what Hansen then represents as National Head Coach.  
When Gatland finally adopts a gameplan to blow Australia off the field in that last Lions test, people refuse to remember that he was also the coach that was giving Australia an all too easy time in the first two tests.  The final game was always there but Gatland resisted using it for two of the tests.  
Schmidt has done more with his limited selection of players than anyone expected of him when he took the job.  He deserves criticism for perhaps not trusting his players enough to play a more expansive, off-the-cuff style game but he deserves credit for dragging us back up to 2nd ranked side in the world after us languishing in 9th for the period before he arrived.  And now he deserves credit for keeping us steady as 4th ranked side in the world and 2nd in the 6N after what was for us a mostly forgettable campaign.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I'd be more concerned if I was Irish...dominating the game yet only winning by 4 points!!!!

This cannot be ignored and I believe this is the biggest criticism of Schmidt's coaching career. When Schmidtball works we totally dominate the game but we seem to cling onto the tightest of leads and the fans have to pray collectively for the opposing team not to break through. England could have easily won the game, all it takes is one line break.

I dont really agree with that. Gatland has nothing like the Schmidt reputation about him. He has delivered Grand Slams though, with a squad of players that over the last ten years havent been considerbly better than Ireland.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I'd be more concerned if I was Irish...dominating the game yet only winning by 4 points!!!!

This cannot be ignored and I believe this is the biggest criticism of Schmidt's coaching career. When Schmidtball works we totally dominate the game but we seem to cling onto the tightest of leads and the fans have to pray collectively for the opposing team not to break through. England could have easily won the game, all it takes is one line break.

England have only won once in Dublin in the last ten years and havent scored a try in Dublin since 2011. Just admit it Schmidt got it right and Ireland were the better side in nearly every way.

The last time Ireland played an England side as good as this one we got hammered in Dublin in 2003.

Just watched the game again, Marmion really did have a very good game. Box kicking aside, he certainly delivered some very quick ball which got Ireland on the front foot.

Zebo really is lacking something and does not seem to have the same belief in his speed as he once did. Gilroy must certainly in line soon, just not sure Schmidt rates him. He seems to be the break glass replacement, if no other player is fit then Gilroy. I do not think Conway was that good when he replaced Earls.

I think Payne at 15 was very good, he really brought the back 3 to life but as mentioned, Zebo was not really at the races again so I think Ireland missed a winger with speed and belief.

Henderson and POM in the line out proved again that its not Rory's throwing as they completely dominated England there.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I'd be more concerned if I was Irish...dominating the game yet only winning by 4 points!!!!

This cannot be ignored and I believe this is the biggest criticism of Schmidt's coaching career. When Schmidtball works we totally dominate the game but we seem to cling onto the tightest of leads and the fans have to pray collectively for the opposing team not to break through. England could have easily won the game, all it takes is one line break.

England have only won once in Dublin in the last ten years and havent scored a try in Dublin since 2011. Just admit it Schmidt got it right and Ireland were the better side in nearly every way.

The last time Ireland played an England side as good as this one we got hammered in Dublin in 2003.

Bloody hell I didn't realise Schmidt was around ten years ago. Really enjoyed him winning the grand slam. You are right that he got it right. I mean the momentous decision to pick O'Mahoney and Payne for example. Great coaching

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I'd be more concerned if I was Irish...dominating the game yet only winning by 4 points!!!!

This cannot be ignored and I believe this is the biggest criticism of Schmidt's coaching career. When Schmidtball works we totally dominate the game but we seem to cling onto the tightest of leads and the fans have to pray collectively for the opposing team not to break through. England could have easily won the game, all it takes is one line break.

England have only won once in Dublin in the last ten years and havent scored a try in Dublin since 2011. Just admit it Schmidt got it right and Ireland were the better side in nearly every way.

The last time Ireland played an England side as good as this one we got hammered in Dublin in 2003.

Can you not help yourself from getting triggered by the slightest whiff of Schmidt criticism? What is your objection here? In the very post you quoted I said that when Schmidtball works we dominate the game. However, for all our dominance we clung onto a very tight lead. We are still very blunt in attack and rarely threaten the opposition defence in that way. It is a win dependant on pure physical dominance. Unfortunately this covers up a major weakness of ours that has often been exploited. "Just admit it".

Can I say that without blaspheming? My word.

eirebilly wrote:Just watched the game again, Marmion really did have a very good game. Box kicking aside, he certainly delivered some very quick ball which got Ireland on the front foot.

Zebo really is lacking something and does not seem to have the same belief in his speed as he once did. Gilroy must certainly in line soon, just not sure Schmidt rates him. He seems to be the break glass replacement, if no other player is fit then Gilroy. I do not think Conway was that good when he replaced Earls.

I think Payne at 15 was very good, he really brought the back 3 to life but as mentioned, Zebo was not really at the races again so I think Ireland missed a winger with speed and belief.

Henderson and POM in the line out proved again that its not Rory's throwing as they completely dominated England there.

Maybe Zebo has realised that Schmidt isn't looking for pace in his wingers and has decided to treat himself to a few extra pies?

Well played Ireland - they stuck to their game plan and put the English off theirs.

2 things I noticed that England could have and should have done yesterday: 1) We seemed to be obsessed with kicking the ball back to the Irish -Ben Youngs should be ashamed of the amount of box kicks he sent straight back to the men in green who very happily said "Thanks very much and proceeded to deny the English any possession. 2) in the second half, when we started using the forwards and did the simple things, we made ground. We should have simply gone back to basics and used the big players like Launchbury, Lawes, and the Vunipola boys to smash, bash and crash their way up the pitch.

Never mind - they'll learn to do things differently next time. I for one would be intrigued to see who tours with the Lions and who gets blooded on the Argentina tour.

eirebilly wrote:Just watched the game again, Marmion really did have a very good game. Box kicking aside, he certainly delivered some very quick ball which got Ireland on the front foot.

Zebo really is lacking something and does not seem to have the same belief in his speed as he once did. Gilroy must certainly in line soon, just not sure Schmidt rates him. He seems to be the break glass replacement, if no other player is fit then Gilroy. I do not think Conway was that good when he replaced Earls.

I think Payne at 15 was very good, he really brought the back 3 to life but as mentioned, Zebo was not really at the races again so I think Ireland missed a winger with speed and belief.

Henderson and POM in the line out proved again that its not Rory's throwing as they completely dominated England there.

They were very good, but to be fair their lives and Best's was made very easy on your throw, where we didn't seem to compete at all.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Maybe Zebo has realised that Schmidt isn't looking for pace in his wingers and has decided to treat himself to a few extra pies?

Ha haa, maybe. He really does not look the same player he once was, he seems to not back his pace as he used too. I think Schmidt picks him because of his left boot but he has not kicked much either. I honestly feel that Gilroy, Sweetnam or Byrne should be selected ahead of him.

Payne, although very good yesterday, is not the future so I would love to see TOH given a good shot there.

catchweight wrote:I dont really agree with that. Gatland has nothing like the Schmidt reputation about him. He has delivered Grand Slams though, with a squad of players that over the last ten years havent been considerbly better than Ireland.

You think not? Oh I don't know; every time Schmidt's name is mentioned in relation to Gatland, Warrens long long list of achievements are dragged out to put the boy-man Joe back in his box. Hell, you're even doing it yourself. The GSs and the 'squad of players' HE'S delivered. Did the players themselves have a part in all that winning? Doesn't that go back to your very point about Schmidt getting too much of the personal credit for the good times?

Mr Bounce wrote:Well played Ireland - they stuck to their game plan and put the English off theirs.

2 things I noticed that England could have and should have done yesterday: 1) We seemed to be obsessed with kicking the ball back to the Irish -Ben Youngs should be ashamed of the amount of box kicks he sent straight back to the men in green who very happily said "Thanks very much and proceeded to deny the English any possession. 2) in the second half, when we started using the forwards and did the simple things, we made ground. We should have simply gone back to basics and used the big players like Launchbury, Lawes, and the Vunipola boys to smash, bash and crash their way up the pitch.

Never mind - they'll learn to do things differently next time. I for one would be intrigued to see who tours with the Lions and who gets blooded on the Argentina tour.

1)  I'd say that might have been because Jones fully expected Ireland to instantly kick the ball back.  He hinted that Ireland would produce a kickathon so I think he must have tried to goad Ireland into it and then perhaps benefit when Ireland became too casual about what parts of the field they were kicking it back to England from.
2) I think in the first half England were trying hard enough to use their big iconic forwards - but they were finding them being pushed back onto their haunches quite a bit.  Now in the second half it got more traction because the Irish players were naturally tiring but the problem was that England were quite puffed by the game themselves so they didn't have enough of smash, bash and crash for it to work.

Hood83 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Henderson and POM in the line out proved again that its not Rory's throwing as they completely dominated England there.

They were very good, but to be fair their lives and Best's was made very easy on your throw, where we didn't seem to compete at all.

I thought that was very strange myself. England are normally very combative in the Line Outs.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I think Best debunked the theory that he is a bad thrower yesterday. Ireland bossed Englands lineout all day. All in all he has been the top performing hooker in the six nations and in November. Should be nailed on for a Lions spot.

Best was never a bad thrower. He's an inconsistent thrower. That's the difference.

I think that was true in the past, but Best has been a consistent thrower for a few seasons now. Hookers tend to get blamed for poor lineouts, regardless of who is to blame.

I think England struggle at times because of the Farrel JJ midfield. When you contain the pack they have noone in the midfield who can smash it up over the gain line, so they look to go wide. But we saw yesterday that if they come up against a good rush defence the backs look quite ordinary and try and force things. It's then made worse by brown who dosent really join the line in attack much

I blame his pal Jack McGrath. Just when Rory is getting ready to do his job for the lineout, Jack always has to come up to him for the bit of the craic and chat. Cut it out Jack! Time enough for gossip when the game is over.

Isn't Rory in his late 60s by now anyway?

So what? Big Phil is still playing high level Club rugby at 73.

George Carlin wrote:Isn't Rory in his late 60s by now anyway?

Indeed, but he has wolverine powers of healing, and will retire at the top of his game sometime in the mid 2030's

Munchkin wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Isn't Rory in his late 60s by now anyway?

Indeed, but he has wolverine powers of healing, and will retire at the top of his game sometime in the mid 2030's

He stole them of Heaslip and drained them hence why he got injured

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Isn't Rory in his late 60s by now anyway?

Indeed, but he has wolverine powers of healing, and will retire at the top of his game sometime in the mid 2030's

He stole them of Heaslip and drained them hence why he got injured

Joe to Heaslip (two hours before the game in a secret underground carpark - that I had wiretapped for me by my Ruskie pals):  "There's a problem, Jamie.  They're on to us.  Me Leinster bias is showing.  So I got a favour to ask of you. - Em, would you mind pretending to be injured just before the game?  I know that's a technical impossibility for you and the medical records would never show it if I was asked to show them to the journalists.... but, I'll pretend the records got lost.  The Dutch Mafia want to see O'Stander at 8.... I think it's a safe enough game to put him into given we're going to lose and he's going to look bad.......  So, what do you think?  Will you do it for me?  You owe me."

ebop wrote:Yeah Heaf, he did say the ABs are there for the taking. He also said before today's game that he'd be keen to play the ABs on Sunday after beating Ireland. Now, I know it's all good fun and part of the so-called 'mind games', but is there a point when you as an England supporter think...."oi, stfu you Aussie knob".

To be honest I'd prefer it if all coaches just got on with coaching and not try to play silly mind games but he if keeps making progress with the team I can live with it ... what does get on my t*ts is the pillock that writes childish drivel for the NZ Herald ... he for me is just a waste of space.

SecretFly wrote:

Joe to Heaslip (two hours before the game in a secret underground carpark - that I had wiretapped for me by my Ruskie pals):  "There's a problem, Jamie.  They're on to us.  Me Leinster bias is showing.  So I got a favour to ask of you.  -   Em, would you mind pretending to be injured just before the game?  I know that's a technical impossibility for you and the medical records would never show it if I was asked to show them to the journalists.... but, I'll pretend the records got lost.  The Dutch Mafia want to see O'Stander at 8.... I think it's a safe enough game to put him into given we're going to lose and he's going to look bad.......  So, what do you think?  Will you do it for me?  You owe me."

Jaysus Fly, best chat with Declan about this, we have been compromised. I am betting it was that Leinster cloggy Gibbo who infiltrated our mafia...

Heaf wrote:

ebop wrote:Yeah Heaf, he did say the ABs are there for the taking. He also said before today's game that he'd be keen to play the ABs on Sunday after beating Ireland. Now, I know it's all good fun and part of the so-called 'mind games', but is there a point when you as an England supporter think...."oi, stfu you Aussie knob".

To be honest I'd prefer it if all coaches just got on with coaching and not try to play silly mind games but he if keeps making progress with the team I can live with it ... what does get on my t*ts is the pillock that writes childish drivel for the NZ Herald ... he for me is just a waste of space.

It's just an Aussie and a New Zealander doing what comes naturally to them - churning the schidt on each other with unmerciful levels of wumdamania.  

Jones can dish it out and he can take it.  England just happen to be caught in the middle of a verbal war between close neighbours over a backyard fence.  When Jones can throw schidt at his own countrymen, you know it isn't exactly going to be mutual courtesy by all when he and the New Zealand press get going at each other.

eirebilly wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Joe to Heaslip (two hours before the game in a secret underground carpark - that I had wiretapped for me by my Ruskie pals):  "There's a problem, Jamie.  They're on to us.  Me Leinster bias is showing.  So I got a favour to ask of you.  -   Em, would you mind pretending to be injured just before the game?  I know that's a technical impossibility for you and the medical records would never show it if I was asked to show them to the journalists.... but, I'll pretend the records got lost.  The Dutch Mafia want to see O'Stander at 8.... I think it's a safe enough game to put him into given we're going to lose and he's going to look bad.......  So, what do you think?  Will you do it for me?  You owe me."

Jaysus Fly, best chat with Declan about this, we have been compromised. I am betting it was that Leinster cloggy Gibbo who infiltrated our mafia...

Gibbo is my deep throat..... ahem...platonically speaking...

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Still waiting for an explanation as to how two underwhelming 6ns and getting stuffed by Argentina in the World Cup means we have "won something or improved. Fact is heaslip not injured today = we would have lost. Same withe rob kearney. That's great coaching alright

Instead of acting like a silly little child why don't you just enjoy the win.

The munster chip on his shoulder means he can't. Too much Leinster in that ireland team...

the-goon wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Still waiting for an explanation as to how two underwhelming 6ns and getting stuffed by Argentina in the World Cup means we have "won something or improved. Fact is heaslip not injured today = we would have lost. Same withe rob kearney. That's great coaching alright

Instead of acting like a silly little child why don't you just enjoy the win.

The munster chip on his shoulder means he can't. Too much Leinster in that ireland team...

Good point, well made

SecretFly wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Isn't Rory in his late 60s by now anyway?

Indeed, but he has wolverine powers of healing, and will retire at the top of his game sometime in the mid 2030's

He stole them of Heaslip and drained them hence why he got injured

Joe to Heaslip (two hours before the game in a secret underground carpark - that I had wiretapped for me by my Ruskie pals):  "There's a problem, Jamie.  They're on to us.  Me Leinster bias is showing.  So I got a favour to ask of you.  -   Em, would you mind pretending to be injured just before the game?  I know that's a technical impossibility for you and the medical records would never show it if I was asked to show them to the journalists.... but, I'll pretend the records got lost.  The Dutch Mafia want to see O'Stander at 8.... I think it's a safe enough game to put him into given we're going to lose and he's going to look bad.......  So, what do you think?  Will you do it for me?  You owe me."

A bit like that scene from Escape to Victory where they had to break the regular goalkeeper's arm so that Sly could play. Bygones.

Anyone mentioned to beshocked about George throwing the ball straight to POM?

Ironic how Eddie Jones described Italy's tactics as not rugby and yet his game plan for the Ireland game seemed to revolve around hitting Sexton as much as possible off the ball, late, legally, on occasion illegally etc. rather than actually playing rugby. Any ruck Sexton was involved in England seemed more interested in smashing Sexton than actually winning the ruck. Was the game plan to injure Sexton and then hope Ireland capitulate?

carpet baboon wrote:Anyone mentioned to beshocked about George throwing the ball straight to POM?

Ah beshocked will I'm sure be on tomorrow to lay down the law to all you non-believers.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Ironic how Eddie Jones described Italy's tactics as not rugby and yet his game plan for the Ireland game seemed to revolve around hitting Sexton as much as possible off the ball, late, legally, on occasion illegally etc. rather than actually playing rugby. Any ruck Sexton was involved in England seemed more interested in smashing Sexton than actually winning the ruck. Was the game plan to injure Sexton and then hope Ireland capitulate?

I'd say the aim was to legally give him a touch game to put him off his game. That's rugby and flyhalves get the treatment. The poor basterde does get a lot of treatment through games, he's beginning to resemble BOD who used to get a load of softening up 'Hello's from his colleagues on the other teams.

SecretFly wrote:

catchweight wrote:I dont really agree with that. Gatland has nothing like the Schmidt reputation about him. He has delivered Grand Slams though, with a squad of players that over the last ten years havent been considerbly better than Ireland.

You think not?  Oh I don't know; every time Schmidt's name is mentioned in relation to Gatland, Warrens long long list of achievements are dragged out to put the boy-man Joe back in his box.  Hell, you're even doing it yourself.  The GSs and the 'squad of players' HE'S delivered.  Did the players themselves have a part in all that winning?  Doesn't that go back to your very point about Schmidt getting too much of the personal credit for the good times?

I didnt mention Gatland, you brought him up. I dont think Gatland has enjoyed the same kind of treatment Schmidt has. There has been a sense that Schmidt took Irish rugby from the gutter and only his masterclass in tactics is keeping Ireland competitive. It has started to change, slowly, as he has had a mixed bag over the last few years. Gatland has got far more flack than I have seen Schmidt take.

He is a good coach, and while he took Ireland from a relative low point dont think hes quite the Saviour thats he been made out. I have a feeling that his conservatism around tactics and selection might be holding back Ireland from improving even further at this point in time. Sometimes hes been forced into changes he wouldnt have made which have benfited Ireland. It happened in South Africa, it happened again yesterday for example.

Gatland is more conservative that Schmidt IMO. Since the RWC Schmidt has capped 19 new players (more Munster players than Leinster players), Wales 3.

Ireland capped 3 players in this six nations alone, three Munster men. Interesting when you consider how many Munster whingers claim he favours players he is familiar with.

Maybe his is more conservative, thats not not the point i am making howerver.

catchweight wrote:

He is a good coach, and while he took Ireland from a relative low point dont think hes quite the Saviour thats he been made out. I have a feeling that his conservatism around tactics and selection might be holding back Ireland from improving even further at this point in time. Sometimes hes been forced into changes he wouldnt have made which have benfited Ireland. It happened in South Africa, it happened again yesterday for example.

No catch, I still think you're being selective in pointing out that Schmidt gets more credit than he deserves yet somehow other coaches don't seem to be rated by the same tendancy amongst other sets of fans to laud them when they go through a winning phase.  
I use Gatland and Hansen as examples and I'll still use Gatland.  He's been ten years in the job, Joe Schmidt is already getting flak four years in. He was getting flak two years in.  

I've criticised Schmidt plenty on these threads but I'm not buying this new narrative that he's a cynical, limited, cowardly and overrated coach.  He has done what he has done so far (four years worth) - it's his record.  As other coaches claim the plaudits for what they do so will Schmidt rightly claim the bright points of his Ireland stint.  We've had off periods and, yep, I'd like a more running attack element to our overall patterns but nope, I'm not buying the new story that's being written about him.