6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

First topic message reminder :

  
IRELAND v ENGLAND
18 March 2017
KO: 17:00 GMT
Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Referee: Jerome Garces (France)
Touch judges: Mathieu Raynal (France) & Marius Mitrea (Italy)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

Live on [BBC, RTE, DMAX, FR2, ITV (H)]

A. Head to Head

131 Played 131
47 Won 76
8 Drawn 8
76 Lost 47
1,079 Points 1,526

B. Recent Form

27 February 2016
Twickenham, London
21 – 10 to England

5 September 2015
Twickenham, London
21 – 13 to England

1 March 2015
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
19 – 9 to Ireland

22 February 2014
Twickenham, London
13 – 10 to England

10 February 2013
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
6 – 12 to England

17 March 2012
Twickenham, London
30 – 9 to England

C. Teams

IRELAND

Payne; Earls, Ringrose, Henshaw, Zebo; Sexton, Marmion; McGrath, Best (captain), Furlong; Ryan, Henderson; Stander, O'Brien, Heaslip,

Replacements: Scannell, Healy, Ryan, Toner, O'Mahony, McGrath, Jackson, Conway.

ENGLAND

Brown; Watson, Joseph, Farrell, Daly; Ford, Youngs; Marler, Hartley (captain), Cole; Launchbury, Lawes; Itoje, Haskell, B Vunipola.

Replacements: George, M Vunipola, Sinckler, Wood, Hughes, Care, Te'o, Nowell.

Im not selling any story of him. I see what I see. You see what you see.

catchweight wrote:Im not selling any story of him. I see what I see. You see what you see.

Exactly...and I call it a story and you call it an observation.


I'm adding your observations to the observations of others and I'm seeing the narrative grow. So be it. It's your opinion - but that's what we're here for to challenge each other's opinions.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Ironic how Eddie Jones described Italy's tactics as not rugby and yet his game plan for the Ireland game seemed to revolve around hitting Sexton as much as possible off the ball, late, legally, on occasion illegally etc. rather than actually playing rugby. Any ruck Sexton was involved in England seemed more interested in smashing Sexton than actually winning the ruck. Was the game plan to injure Sexton and then hope Ireland capitulate?

There is a clear mandate to target Sexton by quite a few teams. His injury record is hardly a secret. Obviously it is fine to target him if it is within the laws of the game, but he has received some number of high/late tackles over the past season or two.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Ironic how Eddie Jones described Italy's tactics as not rugby and yet his game plan for the Ireland game seemed to revolve around hitting Sexton as much as possible off the ball, late, legally, on occasion illegally etc. rather than actually playing rugby. Any ruck Sexton was involved in England seemed more interested in smashing Sexton than actually winning the ruck. Was the game plan to injure Sexton and then hope Ireland capitulate?

There is a clear mandate to target Sexton by quite a few teams. His injury record is hardly a secret. Obviously it is fine to target him if it is within the laws of the game, but he has received some number of high/late tackles over the past season or two.

and it is also fine for Italy not to compete at rucks. England also forfeited rucks in favour of slamming into Sexton. I think that is as non rugby a tactic as anything Italy did.

Yeah the French also target sexton. At least they did under the last coach, not sure Noves would resort to that.

As for the match, it's amazing the difference a good lineout can make. Schmidders has to have a third jumper there in future.

I thought the occasion got to England. It was always a banana skin match for them just like Wales was for us last week. Still, Eddie Jones seemed happy enough after. You can't win them all.

Think it's Eddie's poker face.  

I think behind the public stoicism, Eddie will be less assured and knows he has to work to re-establish the aura of invincibility.  They didn't have it all their own way this year in 6N, but a win against Ireland, the Slam and the consecutive win record would have put a very nice varnish on things.  Eddie is a coach who fully understands the psychology of the game.

He has to rebuild the aura now.  It's easier the first time - people are getting used to him and are learning all the while about how to stop his English team or at least how to resist more effectively.  Strong, strong team.... but Eddie won't like it that New Zealand were looking in on that game.  The psychological war.

What are you talking about?

Teams lose games all the time and bounce back stronger, this will do us good in the long run.

Now lets get this silly outdated Lions tour out of the way.

TightHEAD wrote:What are you talking about?

Teams lose games all the time and bounce back stronger, this will do us good in the long run.

Now lets get this silly outdated Lions tour out of the way.

Are you not concerned that England have only one 6 nations win in Dublin in 10 years and have not scored a try there since 2011? Three matches without a try.

I thought England actually were quite poor against Ireland and have potential to be a much better side. Ireland weren't even that good either.

Tactically England didnt have much other than rattle Sexton as much as possible and hope for the best.

Think England were poor when we did get chances we made mistake after mistake. Just a really poor day at the office.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think England were poor when we did get chances we made mistake after mistake. Just a really poor day at the office.

Tactically poor too. Why didnt England target Ireland's lineout? It was the weakest lineout in the tournament going into the game. The England maul defence was very good though.

Why did England persist with trying to take Sexton put of the game rather than trying to get their own celebrated backs into the game?

That was a shocking performance by England but still only lost by 4 points.

Ireland are similar to Wales in that you're always in the game against them as they don't tend to pile on the points even when on top.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:What are you talking about?

Teams lose games all the time and bounce back stronger, this will do us good in the long run.

Now lets get this silly outdated Lions tour out of the way.

Are you not concerned that England have only one 6 nations win in Dublin in 10 years and have not scored a try there since 2011? Three matches without a try.

I thought England actually were quite poor against Ireland and have potential to be a much better side. Ireland weren't even that good either.

Tactically England didnt have much other than rattle Sexton as much as possible and hope for the best.

Not really. Ireland are strong in Dublin and away wins there aren't that common for everyone. It'd be nice to win every game, but we've been spoiled a bit over the last 18 games.

England haven't lost at home in the Six Nations since 2012. In Ireland's last 3 attempts they've scored 2 tries total and haven't breached 10 points on any of the 3 occasions.

Not worried about England's try scoring either. England scored the most points, the most tries and were the only team to take 2 try bonus points. Yes there's room to improve and we did get bogged down in a couple of games, but England are ahead of the curve in the Northern Hemisphere.

robbo277 wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:What are you talking about?

Teams lose games all the time and bounce back stronger, this will do us good in the long run.

Now lets get this silly outdated Lions tour out of the way.

Are you not concerned that England have only one 6 nations win in Dublin in 10 years and have not scored a try there since 2011? Three matches without a try.

I thought England actually were quite poor against Ireland and have potential to be a much better side. Ireland weren't even that good either.

Tactically England didnt have much other than rattle Sexton as much as possible and hope for the best.

Not really. Ireland are strong in Dublin and away wins there aren't that common for everyone. It'd be nice to win every game, but we've been spoiled a bit over the last 18 games.

England haven't lost at home in the Six Nations since 2012. In Ireland's last 3 attempts they've scored 2 tries total and haven't breached 10 points on any of the 3 occasions.

Not worried about England's try scoring either. England scored the most points, the most tries and were the only team to take 2 try bonus points. Yes there's room to improve and we did get bogged down in a couple of games, but England are ahead of the curve in the Northern Hemisphere.

+1

We've not attacked the opposition line out that much at all this year which is odd considering it was a major strength last year, in that regard I think we've missed Kruis but even then Itoje has been less potent.

I thought Sexton was over protected by the Ref, he was there to be hit, that's Rugby!

Just because he looks ill and looks like his been in several car crashes on the way to the ground shouldn't mean he gets protected.

Thought Billy V was a shell of his former self. Still an automatic Lions pick?

I enjoyed the tussles between Farrell and Sexton, there were a few exchanges in the last couple of minutes between the players when you could tell they were both quite wound up. Sexton lashed out at Farrell and Farrell stuck a sneeky leg out after. Hand bags. Would be fun to watch them in the same team.

TightHEAD wrote:I thought Sexton was over protected by the Ref, he was there to be hit, that's Rugby!

Its fairly negative rugby in my opinion.

Billy should have been on the bench as he doesn't look fully up to speed and Hughes deserved another start after the Scotland game.

Nowell should have started over Watson too.

So yes mistakes were made and we had a bad day at the office, but hey we still Champs.

Well done England on another title. The table doesn't lie, there was a clear gap there between England and the rest.

Good performance by Ireland, similar to the French game I think people are getting carried away a bit with the result.

We had massive possession and territory advantage but the failure to convert pressure to points has been the story of the tournament for us.

It was very winnable this year for us but we've made too many errors in the opposition half which is very unlike Joe Schmidt teams. It's hard to pinpoint what has gone wrong.

I hate to criticize Joe but he has to take responsibility that some of his selections haven't worked out.

O'Mahoney and Payne really made a difference this week, which were both enforced by injury. Best has taken stick but not selecting a 3rd line out jumper hurt us against Scotland and Wales, I thought he really fronted up on Saturday.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:I thought Sexton was over protected by the Ref, he was there to be hit, that's Rugby!

Its fairly negative rugby in my opinion.

Happens in every game played, but the Irish must have bent the Refs ear pre-game as he was over protective towards Sexton,

Not one penalty should have been awarded imo. All were fair legal hits.

TightHEAD wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:I thought Sexton was over protected by the Ref, he was there to be hit, that's Rugby!

Its fairly negative rugby in my opinion.

Happens in every game played, but the Irish must have bent the Refs ear pre-game as he was over protective towards Sexton,

Not one penalty should have been awarded imo. All were fair legal hits.

Some of them were border line late and one or two were definitely high. England were wasting their time anyway the should have been focusing on their own game and may have won.

rodders wrote:Well done England on another title. The table doesn't lie, there was a clear gap there between England and the rest.

Good performance by Ireland, similar to the French game I think people are getting carried away a bit with the result.

We had massive possession and territory advantage but the failure to convert pressure to points has been the story of the tournament for us.

It was very winnable this year for us but we've made too many errors in the opposition half which is very unlike Joe Schmidt teams. It's hard to pinpoint what has gone wrong.

I hate to criticize Joe but he has to take responsibility that some of his selections haven't worked out.

O'Mahoney and Payne really made a difference this week, which were both enforced by injury. Best has taken stick but not selecting a 3rd line out jumper hurt us against Scotland and Wales, I thought he really fronted up on Saturday.

Payne had a mixed bag. He dropped two really basic catches and never looked that comfortable under the high ball. That sort of thing can lose you a tight game. Going forward he was better than Kearney alright although Kearney hasnt been bad in attack this year.

O'Mahoney made a difference alright particularly in the lineout although it did help that England didnt contest the lineout much whereas Wales and Scotland did. The game definitely suited O'Mahoney and he is a gifted player. I think possibly a bit more rotation in the backrow may be the answer although I dont think anyone expected guys like POM and VdF to be out of the picture altogether nor is Heaslip now.

I agree on that,

but hey did I mention we are the Champs, so at the end of the day its irrelevant.

A GS would have been nice but only would have added to the pressure on these players, a small grounding is what was needed for all including the coaches.

Thought they would have more a go at ireland lineout. Strange that Borthwick didn't and was more concerned with setting the maul defence seemingly. Sexton is there to be targeted but that didn't stop our attack. ..silly repeated mistakes did.

TightHEAD wrote:I agree on that,

but hey did I mention we are the Champs, so at the end of the day its irrelevant.

A GS would have been nice but only would have added to the pressure on these players, a small grounding is what was needed for all including the coaches.

Yes they are champs and well done winning the six nations is not to be scoffed at. I recall various posters saying throughout the tournament that it doesnt count unless its a grand slam. To me thats nonsense. Winning the championship is all that counts, the GS is just a really nice bonus so yes well done England I would love it if Ireland had won the six nations.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Payne had a mixed bag. He dropped two really basic catches and never looked that comfortable under the high ball.

He did but he was clearly way off full fitness having played very little recently. He also doesn't play regularly at 15 so being a bit rusty under the highball is understandable.

He added a different dimension to our attack though both in counter attack and joining the line. Kearney was good against Scotland but our attack this year has been very predictable and I think the back 3 selection didn't work at all previous to this game.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Thought they would have more a go at ireland lineout. Strange that Borthwick didn't and was more concerned with setting the maul defence seemingly.  Sexton is there to be targeted but that didn't stop our attack. ..silly repeated mistakes did.

There were definitely a couple of rucks that England had a change of turnovers but instead double teamed Sexton on a clear out instead and effectively forfeited the ruck. It was almost as if the plan was to take him out of the game.

rodders wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Payne had a mixed bag. He dropped two really basic catches and never looked that comfortable under the high ball.

He did but he was clearly way off full fitness having played very little recently. He also doesn't play regularly at 15 so being a bit rusty under the highball is understandable.

He added a different dimension to our attack though both in counter attack and joining the line. Kearney was good against Scotland but our attack this year has been very predictable and I think the back 3 selection didn't work at all previous to this game.  

I suppose I cant argue with that although I think Earls has been decent. I think we miss Trimble a bit.

rodders wrote:

He added a different dimension to our attack though both in counter attack and joining the line. Kearney was good against Scotland but our attack this year has been very predictable and I think the back 3 selection didn't work at all previous to this game.  

+100.

Payne a little rusty but he brought so much more, he got the backline working and got Ireland into some good attacking positions from the counter. I said at the time that with Payne playing 15, it really was the time to use Gilroy ahead of Zebo as Gilroy is always on the shoulder and expecting a break so supports excellently.

I thought that bar the 2 dropped balls, Payne had a fantastic game and attacked the way Rob Kearney dreams about. The guy had a bit of time off the bench and a start against Zebre since his return from injury so I reckon he showed what class he has with a 15 on his back.

eirebilly wrote:

rodders wrote:

He added a different dimension to our attack though both in counter attack and joining the line. Kearney was good against Scotland but our attack this year has been very predictable and I think the back 3 selection didn't work at all previous to this game.  

+100.

Payne a little rusty but he brought so much more, he got the backline working and got Ireland into some good attacking positions from the counter. I said at the time that with Payne playing 15, it really was the time to use Gilroy ahead of Zebo as Gilroy is always on the shoulder and expecting a break so supports excellently.

You are only one person so you can only +1

Payne played well and made a difference, but the whole Team executed an effective game plan and the players brought in all made a case to start.

rodders wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Payne had a mixed bag. He dropped two really basic catches and never looked that comfortable under the high ball.

He did but he was clearly way off full fitness having played very little recently. He also doesn't play regularly at 15 so being a bit rusty under the highball is understandable.

He added a different dimension to our attack though both in counter attack and joining the line. Kearney was good against Scotland but our attack this year has been very predictable and I think the back 3 selection didn't work at all previous to this game.  

I'd agree with your analysis and thought Payne was good. A Kearney vs Payne debate is probably very similar to one we've been having with Brown vs Daly or Watson. I thought Payne showed his value and always threatened with ball in hand.

Having a player at 15 who can bring his wingers into the game really helps your counter-attacking options, and I think it's somewhere England need to evolve.

Pete330v2 wrote:I thought that bar the 2 dropped balls, Payne had a fantastic game and attacked the way Rob Kearney dreams about. The guy had a bit of time off the bench and a start against Zebre since his return from injury so I reckon he showed what class he has with a 15 on his back.

Shame Payne is older than Kearney.

I do not think that Kearney has been bad this tournament at all but Payne just seemed to bring more balance at 15. Still, I would prefer that TOH get more exposure as I feel he is the future at 15.

It is the same with Heaslip, legend of the Irish game but his injury did afford POM to play at 6 and CJ at 8 which in my opinion was the key to winning on the weekend. This should continue I feel as there is more balance with POM at 6.

To me, Henderson and POM were excellent inclusions and put England off there game, always said if you win the back row battle against England and starve them of quick ball, they will struggle.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:I thought that bar the 2 dropped balls, Payne had a fantastic game and attacked the way Rob Kearney dreams about. The guy had a bit of time off the bench and a start against Zebre since his return from injury so I reckon he showed what class he has with a 15 on his back.

Shame Payne is older than Kearney.

That's one thing we always forget because Payne plays like the younger man

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

rodders wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Payne had a mixed bag. He dropped two really basic catches and never looked that comfortable under the high ball.

He did but he was clearly way off full fitness having played very little recently. He also doesn't play regularly at 15 so being a bit rusty under the highball is understandable.

He added a different dimension to our attack though both in counter attack and joining the line. Kearney was good against Scotland but our attack this year has been very predictable and I think the back 3 selection didn't work at all previous to this game.  

I suppose I cant argue with that although I think Earls has been decent. I think we miss Trimble a bit.

I hate to say it but I'm not sure Trimble is the player he was a year ago. OK He's had injuries but hasn't stood out for Ulster the way has in the past and think he might just be losing a yard of pace.

Zebo has been poor, he was on fire in the autumn but has been very ineffective in attack. Earls hasn't impressed me to be honest either, although looked good in space. I think we desperately needed our wings coming in field and offering a bit more through the middle the way Bowe and Trimble have done in the recent past.

I can't think of one back move that came off all championship and led to scores. We created things but really finished very little outside the Italy game. Defensively we also were exposed out wide in a number of the games.  

It was good to see Conway get a chance but I'd have like to have seen what Gilroy could do against the better teams.

Hopefully O'Hallaran, Sweetnam, Stockdale and Byrne get a chance in the summer and Autumn too. We need to freshen up the backline badly and quickly based on this campaign if we want to reach the next level.

I dont think Byrne is as good as everyone seems to think he is. Im sure he will be capped at some point but not sure that he is much of an improvement on what we have already.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I dont think Byrne is as good as everyone seems to think he is. Im sure he will be capped at some point but not sure that he is much of an improvement on what we have already.

Maybe but I think we need new options now in the back 3. Unfortunately I think we've seen the end of Bowe as an international wing.

Trimble and Kearney can come back for sure but the writing is on the wall. Earls is no spring chicken so the outside backs are definitely in transition now.

I don't think we are in a bad position with some of the players coming through but it's time for them to step up.

rodders wrote:
I hate to say it but I'm not sure Trimble is the player he was a year ago. OK He's had injuries but hasn't stood out for Ulster the way has in the past and think he might just be losing a yard of pace.

Zebo has been poor, he was on fire in the autumn but has been very ineffective in attack. Earls hasn't impressed me to be honest either, although looked good in space. I think we desperately needed our wings coming in field and offering a bit more through the middle the way Bowe and Trimble have done in the recent past.

I can't think of one back move that came off all championship and led to scores. We created things but really finished very little outside the Italy game. Defensively we also were exposed out wide in a number of the games.  

It was good to see Conway get a chance but I'd have like to have seen what Gilroy could do against the better teams.

Hopefully O'Hallaran, Sweetnam, Stockdale and Byrne get a chance in the summer and Autumn too. We need to freshen up the backline badly and quickly based on this campaign if we want to reach the next level.

Trimble I don't think has had a real run of games to find his form, I think he's also being shackled a bit and not coming in field as much and is staying wide which isn't always his strong point.

Zebo has gained plenty of yards but just hasn't been able to get the tries but there does seem to be something missing with him though he is a bit more complete as a player these days

Just a thought but could ringrose impressive defensive display have anything to do with Payne behind him?
We know Joe raves about his defensive organisation skills

Congratulations to the Irish - almost completely stopped England playing. A great day nonetheless with lots of good natured banter where I was in Twickenham. England will hopefully learn from that and become a better team.

carpet baboon wrote:Just a thought but could ringrose impressive defensive display have anything to do with Payne behind him?
We know Joe raves about his defensive organisation skills

Maybe but he has improved with each game since the Scotland game. By the time the WC comes we will have a young but very experienced centre pairing in Ringrose and Henshaw. Schmidt deserves a lot of credit for capping 19 new players since the RWC.

I've said it before, but I really want an Irish backrow of:

6.POM
7.JVDF
8.CJ Sander

Think it would be a perfect balance and would be very difficult to play against! CJ have been the best 8 in Europe this season, we play him at 6! It's classic Ireland.

Completely agree about our back 3 needing a shake-up. In attack, the problem is a lack of gas just now - we terrify no-one with our pace on the outside at the moment and we need to find it from somewhere. Earls is elusive and should be retained as a squad player, but he isn't really quick enough to stretch the meanest defences. As for Zebo, he just remains an enigma to me; can look so good at the level below internationals and will murder a bad team, but when did he last put the frighteners on one of the top seven or eight sides? Whether or not Byrne, Sweetnam and Stockdale have what it takes we obviously don't know at the moment - the time to find out is now and over the next few months, including the summer and AI series.

Defensively, the back 3 looked shambolic at times during the 6N series, right up until the last game when I didn't notice much wrong. Kearney remains a rock under the high ball but had me closing my eyes at times with his tackling - the wings were also at fault for offering up chances against France, Scotland and Wales, some of which cost match-changing points. On balance, I'd be for keeping Kearney and Payne in the mix just now, but I would like to see new blood at 11 and 14 at once and a completely new back three by say 2019.

marty2086 wrote:
Trimble I don't think has had a real run of games to find his form, I think he's also being shackled a bit and not coming in field as much and is staying wide which isn't always his strong point.

Zebo has gained plenty of yards but just hasn't been able to get the tries but there does seem to be something missing with him though he is a bit more complete as a player these days

You might be right regarding Trimble but i think you are going back to 2008/9, when he was still making the adjustment to the wing, were he's had such a sustained ineffective run. Since then he's been a consistent stand out for Ulster even if his Irish form didn't catch up until Joe came in. I wouldn't write him off totally but he needs to find some form soon.

Zebo to me just lacks a bit of power to break away from structured defenses sometimes. unless the game breaks up and he can use his more unorthodox skills he can be shackled out of some games. I also think when Sexton is there he doesn't come into first receiver as much, he seems to work better with Jackson.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:I thought that bar the 2 dropped balls, Payne had a fantastic game and attacked the way Rob Kearney dreams about. The guy had a bit of time off the bench and a start against Zebre since his return from injury so I reckon he showed what class he has with a 15 on his back.

Shame Payne is older than Kearney.

By 5 whole months.
It's a shame Kearney could find that gaps between defenders. Maybe 5 months extra life experience gives you that

Pete330v2 wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:I thought that bar the 2 dropped balls, Payne had a fantastic game and attacked the way Rob Kearney dreams about. The guy had a bit of time off the bench and a start against Zebre since his return from injury so I reckon he showed what class he has with a 15 on his back.

Shame Payne is older than Kearney.

By 5 whole months.
It's a shame Kearney could find that gaps between defenders. Maybe 5 months extra life experience gives you that

When I say it is a shame I mean that genuinely rather than sarcastically. Payne is a good player but realistically at 31 he probably wont make it too far beyond the next RWC although he doesnt have as many international miles on the clock as others.

You are right though he is better in attack.

TightHEAD wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:I thought Sexton was over protected by the Ref, he was there to be hit, that's Rugby!

Its fairly negative rugby in my opinion.

Happens in every game played, but the Irish must have bent the Refs ear pre-game as he was over protective towards Sexton,

Not one penalty should have been awarded imo. All were fair legal hits.

Horseschidt Tight. If that's protection I wouldn't like to see the ref doing bodyguard duty.

I know billy has mentioned him over the weekend - good man billy.  But I'll remind all the POM v Stander v Heaslip v Henderson v Toner v Payne v Kearney v Trimble v Zebo boys that we won that game (against the hardest hitting team in the NH, and the 2nd ranked side in the world) without Darth Murray and with a young, dancing tempo-setting Marmion.

Now how often have I heard that Murray is the essential ingredient in any Irish side with serious intent to win a game against the very best?  Marmion had a good part in allowing Ireland's bite to be sharper on the day, so let's not overlook his significance as the synopsis of the day mentions just about every player on the team - and off it - except him .