British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

First topic message reminder :

Fairly simple, champions cup aside, we have nearly all the information Garland will have to pick the Lions squad, so go ahead name your squad, your captain etc.

LondonTiger wrote:

cascough wrote:And then when you throw in a curveball of the players have to fit the coaches gameplan, plus 50/50 calls that are tough on anyone, those numbers and that representation really becomes irrelevant.

People all have their favourite players, but to call it a disgrace is a bit toys out of the pram, for me.

I can understand why Te'o say has gone instead of JJ due to fitting the coaches gameplan. I may disagree, but I understand. Having selected Te'o and Henshaw though, I really struggle to see how Jamie Roberts adds anything, other than being a Gats favourite (along with 1/2p). Allied to some of Gats comments in the last few weeks, I am coming round to the belief that it would have taken a 70/30 call to overide his belief in his old favourites. Maybe calling it a disgrace is a bit strong, but there are undertones of 205 in this purported selection.

It also leaves them incredibly one dimensional. Its one thing to have a preference for a cerain type of center but to only select solely on that type leaves you straight jacketed,. You can swap around personel but its no rela plan B, just hoping whoever is picked has a good day.


Another point here for me is a difference in approach between Jones and Gatland. Jones has been shrewd in recognising the talent he has and fixing the way England play to get his best players on the picth. Gatland insteads leaves the only real world class center out of the squad altogether because he doesnt fit a type. Never mind the number of "dependable" (unispiring) back 3 players.

It just comes across as bloody minded. Never mind that T'eo is about as Britrish as Flutey was.

Wouldn't

Murray
Sexton
North
Teo
Roberts
Williams
Halfpenny

vs

Smith
Barrett
Savea
SBW
Lienert-Brown
Milner-Skudder
Smith

be fun.

Joseph is unfortunate to miss out if true but didn't have a good 6 nations. He had 1 good game.

Plus he doesn't fit into Gatland ball. He's up against Jonathan Davies too!

The other centres suit Gatlandball whether you like it or not.

Howley is the attack coach too.


That England-Scotland game has really damaged Scottish fortunes rightly or wrongly.

If Scotland have put up much more of a fight, Gatland would be forced to pick more Scotsman but that result gives him an excuse.

It's unfair perhaps but Scottish players just aren't as praised as much.

Very surprised Launchbury and Joseph are unlikely to go - they are both media darlings, perhaps not as much as Itoje but still top 5 most lauded players by the media.

Gooseberry wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

cascough wrote:And then when you throw in a curveball of the players have to fit the coaches gameplan, plus 50/50 calls that are tough on anyone, those numbers and that representation really becomes irrelevant.

People all have their favourite players, but to call it a disgrace is a bit toys out of the pram, for me.

I can understand why Te'o say has gone instead of JJ due to fitting the coaches gameplan. I may disagree, but I understand. Having selected Te'o and Henshaw though, I really struggle to see how Jamie Roberts adds anything, other than being a Gats favourite (along with 1/2p). Allied to some of Gats comments in the last few weeks, I am coming round to the belief that it would have taken a 70/30 call to overide his belief in his old favourites. Maybe calling it a disgrace is a bit strong, but there are undertones of 205 in this purported selection.

It also leaves them incredibly one dimensional. Its one thing to have a preference for a cerain type of center but to only select solely on that type leaves you straight jacketed,. You can swap around personel but its no rela plan B, just hoping whoever is picked has a good day.


Another point here for me is a difference in approach between Jones and Gatland. Jones has been shrewd in recognising the talent he has and fixing the way England play to get his best players on the picth. Gatland insteads leaves the only real world class center out of the squad altogether because he doesnt fit a type. Never mind the number of "dependable" (unispiring) back 3 players.

It just comes across as bloody minded. Never mind that T'eo is about as Britrish as Flutey was.

He has an English mother.

As far as I can see, since 1899 there has never been a Lions tour with just one representative from a pool country.

I really hope the rumours are just that.

BBC now saying one of Seymour or Maitland will join Hogg as the 2 tourists

RDW_Scotland wrote:BBC now saying one of Seymour or Maitland will join Hogg as the 2 tourists

Surely if they know they know which and if not they are just guessing.

RDW_Scotland wrote:BBC now saying one of Seymour or Maitland will join Hogg as the 2 tourists

**** the Lions.

Griff wrote:This Lions thing really brings the worst out in people.  

No, some of them are like that all the time.

But if these rumours are true then it's very disappointing that Gatland has stuck with a Welsh squad who underperformed badly in this 6N

Scottrf wrote:But you can also see it like a boxing fight where a guy loses every round narrowly. The scorecard makes the fight more one sided than it was, but they are still fair.

Not saying that's the case but also don't see many 'must picks'.

Good post. Scotland fans will be disappointed to not see their favourites picked, I understand that. But then to label it an utter disgrace and feel detached from the Lions I can't understand. The Lions has never been about how many of my favourite players are playing for me.

RDW_Scotland wrote:BBC now saying one of Seymour or Maitland will join Hogg as the 2 tourists

Would be a remarkable turnaround for Maitland if he makes the Lions.

Been a great year for him after the disappointment of being relegated last year.

Must feel like he's hit the jackpot.

Poorfour wrote:

Griff wrote:This Lions thing really brings the worst out in people.  

No, some of them are like that all the time.

But if these rumours are true then it's very disappointing that Gatland has stuck with a Welsh squad who underperformed badly in this 6N

Its the only games he went too. He didn't even bother turning up for England vs Scotland.

Maitland over Nowell! lol

mid_gen wrote:It's not the inclusion of Roberts at the expense of JJ that bothers me, it's the implication that we're going to try and see what happens if you play Gatlandball with the All Blacks. Again.

Answer = lose.

this is a much more sensible post IMO. I don't agree, but I can appreciate why people might be dismayed at this.

Scottrf wrote:Wouldn't

Murray
Sexton
North
Teo
Roberts
Williams
Halfpenny

vs

Smith
Barrett
Savea
SBW
Lienert-Brown
Milner-Skudder
Smith

be fun.

It would be excruciating if that was the team rolled out against NZ!

NZ will always scores tries with the firepower at their disposal! To try and merely try to reduce the number of tries they will score is negative rugby at it's worst!

The thought of NZ battering against a defensive line up like that for 30 mins until the Lions tire and then having SBW offloading to Skudder cutting an angle is scary. What will be the Lions response? Try to get some penalties near the goal?

Banahan should probably have been picked. Would suit Gatland well and better form than some rumoured selections.

TightHEAD wrote:Maitland over Nowell! lol

That would make absolutely no sense to me. I see Nowell as possibly the best winger available albeit he didnt start many six nations games recently.

I'd take Nowell over Maitland too. Maitland can perhaps match him defensively but isn't as attacking.

Still think Maitland needs to look for work more.

Sometimes I think wingers don't track the ball well enough, wingers must get their hands on the ball, not expect the ball to come to them. Especially if Brown is full back....

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Earls will be having nightmares about tackling Julian Savea.

No, he won't. Earls is full of confidence now.

I just don't get why Earls is overlooked. Every coach he has ever had really rates him and people seem to forget he scored the same number of tries as Hogg did in the last Six Nations.

Sin é wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Earls will be having nightmares about tackling Julian Savea.

No, he won't. Earls is full of confidence now.

I just don't get why Earls is overlooked. Every coach he has ever had really rates him and people seem to forget he scored the same number of tries as Hogg did in the last Six Nations.

I think his selection is justified. He was one of the better wingers in the 6N. Cant ask for much more than that. I am an Earls fan anyway so Im biased.

However, Savea absolutely steamrolled Earls a few years back when Ireland toured NZ. I dont think he will have fond memories of that game.

cascough wrote:

Scottrf wrote:But you can also see it like a boxing fight where a guy loses every round narrowly. The scorecard makes the fight more one sided than it was, but they are still fair.

Not saying that's the case but also don't see many 'must picks'.

Good post. Scotland fans will be disappointed to not see their favourites picked, I understand that. But then to label it an utter disgrace and feel detached from the Lions I can't understand. The Lions has never been about how many of my favourite players are playing for me.

Until you are in this position, you will never understand.

I think Scotland were worthy of 4 tourists, I've said it before and said it all through this thread:

J Gray, Watson, Seymour and Hogg.

That accuratley reflects who has performed well for Scotland and where we are at the moment, despite beating 66% of the Lions player pool teams.

beshocked wrote:I'd take Nowell over Maitland too. Maitland can perhaps match him defensively but isn't as attacking.

Still think Maitland needs to look for work more.

Sometimes I think wingers don't track the ball well enough, wingers must get their hands on the ball, not expect the ball to come to them. Especially if Brown is full back....

I'd take Seymour over Nowell, and Nowell over Maitland. However Maitland has an advantage of playing in NZ for the crusaders and will know a lot about how super rugby teams play and the intensity required.

Where can we watch the squad announcement live?

You would expect a winger to score more than fullback to be fair.

Earls is a pretty average International winger for me, I'd have most of the English options ahead of him, plus North/Williams and Seymour. Ireland's back 3 options are pretty poor compared to other nations really, unlike their pack.

Maybe here:

http://www.lionsrugby.com/live-announcement.php

http://www.lionsrugby.com/news/16001.php#.WPc8u4jyuHs

Sgt_Pooly wrote:You would expect a winger to score more than fullback to be fair.

Earls is a pretty average International winger for me, I'd have most of the English options ahead of him, plus North/Williams and Seymour. Ireland's back 3 options are pretty poor compared to other nations really, unlike their pack.

Disagree, I think Earls is one of the best finishers in the game. Fully worthy of selection.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:You would expect a winger to score more than fullback to be fair.

Earls is a pretty average International winger for me, I'd have most of the English options ahead of him, plus North/Williams and Seymour. Ireland's back 3 options are pretty poor compared to other nations really, unlike their pack.

Earls has 22 tries in 59 games and was joint top try scorer in the 6 nations. He has a decent return. He is better than Maitland anyway.

I like Earls, as long as he catches the ball he is dangerous and a good finisher.

Can't agree, he'd get in no other home nation side. He only gets his game for Ireland because of a severe lack of options.

TightHEAD wrote:I like Earls, as long as he catches the ball he is dangerous and a good finisher.  

Hes good going forward n th wing but in defence hes a liability for me and was caught out quite a bit in the 6Ns, would much prefer Trimble, Seymour or Maitland

Unless Earls is born in Wales he has no chance of making this team.

I'd like to see Cuthbert picked, ticks all the boxes for what Gatland likes in a player.

Depends what you want from your wingers primarily. Is it finishing? Defensively reliable? Generally you can't get a player who does it all.

TightHEAD wrote:Unless Earls is born in Wales he has no chance of making this team.

I'd like to see Cuthbert picked, ticks all the boxes for what Gatland likes in a player.

Welsh
Out of form

beshocked wrote:Depends what you want from your wingers primarily. Is it finishing? Defensively reliable? Generally you can't get a player who does it all.

Nowell.

cascough wrote:

Scottrf wrote:But you can also see it like a boxing fight where a guy loses every round narrowly. The scorecard makes the fight more one sided than it was, but they are still fair.

Not saying that's the case but also don't see many 'must picks'.

Good post. Scotland fans will be disappointed to not see their favourites picked, I understand that. But then to label it an utter disgrace and feel detached from the Lions I can't understand. The Lions has never been about how many of my favourite players are playing for me.

Cascough - your point is well made but you aren't going to get much purchase on these boards by telling Scotland fans how they should feel about a huge number of their players being excluded. If any nation (whichever one it may be) has essentially no representation on what is supposed to be a 4 nation tour, then the fans are entitled to think what they want, however irksome that is for other people to listen to.

I haven't seen it formally offered yet, and I hope that it never is, but it is absolutely and categorically pathetic for professional coaches to say that all 50:50 calls went against Scottish players because there were no Scottish coaching staff members to 'argue their case'. Basically, that just verifies the view that jingoism and nepotism were key drivers in choosing who was in fact chosen.

There is also one other thing that has occurred to me. Is Gatland using the mainstream media to monitor public reaction to potential selection choices? If enough people complain, will the borderline calls fall the other way? Very very sad if that's true.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Can't agree, he'd get in no other home nation side. He only gets his game for Ireland because of a severe lack of options.

There isnt really a lack of options at wing for Ireland. Zebo, Bowe and Earls are all Lions and Trimble is probably one of the unluckiest Ireland players not to get a Lions selection. There are also some really good up and coming wingers like Niyi Adeolokun, Matt Healy and Adam Byrne.

marty2086 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:I like Earls, as long as he catches the ball he is dangerous and a good finisher.  

Hes good going forward n th wing but in defence hes a liability for me and was caught out quite a bit in the 6Ns, would much prefer Trimble, Seymour or Maitland

Against Scotland he was burned for one of Hoggs tries but his defense was ok overall I think. No?

I would probably prefer Trimble too. He is one of the best Irish players not to go on a Lions tour.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Can't agree, he'd get in no other home nation side. He only gets his game for Ireland because of a severe lack of options.

There isnt really a lack of options at wing for Ireland. Zebo, Bowe and Earls are all Lions and Trimble is probably one of the unluckiest Ireland players not to get a Lions selection. There are also some really good up and coming wingers like Niyi Adeolokun, Matt Healy and Adam Byrne.

I can't comment on the youngsters Guns but all the others are not great for me. It's the one area Ireland could really improve, they'd be quite scary when they do.

Scottrf wrote:

beshocked wrote:Depends what you want from your wingers primarily. Is it finishing? Defensively reliable? Generally you can't get a player who does it all.

Nowell.

If you ignore the defensive bit you mean?

marty2086 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

beshocked wrote:Depends what you want from your wingers primarily. Is it finishing? Defensively reliable? Generally you can't get a player who does it all.

Nowell.

If you ignore the defensive bit you mean?

No. He's very good defensively. Silly comment.

Its a shame Mike Phillips hung up his boots as he was in with a great shout.

Jared Payne in and Roberts out according to reports.....not sure what is worse.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Can't agree, he'd get in no other home nation side. He only gets his game for Ireland because of a severe lack of options.

There isnt really a lack of options at wing for Ireland. Zebo, Bowe and Earls are all Lions and Trimble is probably one of the unluckiest Ireland players not to get a Lions selection. There are also some really good up and coming wingers like Niyi Adeolokun, Matt Healy and Adam Byrne.

I can't comment on the youngsters Guns but all the others are not great for me. It's the one area Ireland could really improve, they'd be quite scary when they do.

Adam Byrne was in Will Greenwood's Lions squad before the six nations. He is a try machine for Leinster 11 tries in 18 games.

George Carlin wrote:

cascough wrote:

Scottrf wrote:But you can also see it like a boxing fight where a guy loses every round narrowly. The scorecard makes the fight more one sided than it was, but they are still fair.

Not saying that's the case but also don't see many 'must picks'.

Good post. Scotland fans will be disappointed to not see their favourites picked, I understand that. But then to label it an utter disgrace and feel detached from the Lions I can't understand. The Lions has never been about how many of my favourite players are playing for me.

Cascough - your point is well made but you aren't going to get much purchase on these boards by telling Scotland fans how they should feel about a huge number of their players being excluded. If any nation (whichever one it may be) has essentially no representation on what is supposed to be a 4 nation tour, then the fans are entitled to think what they want, however irksome that is for other people to listen to.

I haven't seen it formally offered yet, and I hope that it never is, but it is absolutely and categorically pathetic for professional coaches to say that all 50:50 calls went against Scottish players because there were no Scottish coaching staff members to 'argue their case'. Basically, that just verifies the view that jingoism and nepotism were key drivers in choosing who was in fact chosen.  

There is also one other thing that has occurred to me. Is Gatland using the mainstream media to monitor public reaction to potential selection choices? If enough people complain, will the borderline calls fall the other way? Very very sad if that's true.

That doesn't sound out of the realms of impossibility.

I think what would be strange if Gatland didn't ask players he trusts, like AWJ or Warburton who was a right pain in the jeer to play against this year?

For Scotland/England/Ireland who was a nightmare to play against?

The sad bit is though if Gatland uses the lack of Scottish voices on his selection panel to justify a lack of Scottish tourists it will confirm that Gatland's eyes are painted on or he simply didn't care that his Welsh golden boys got pumped at Murrayfield.

NZ Whitewash!

What's Lee Byrne and Shane Williams doing this Summer?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Jared Payne in and Roberts out according to reports.....not sure what is worse.

Not surprised. Gatland seems to favour Kiwis. Payne is an excellent all rounder too. Defensively very sound at 13 and excellent in attack at fullback. He would be a much better option than Roberts who isnt much more than a human cannon ball.

GeordieFalcon wrote:NZ Whitewash!

I really hope so, roll on the 2021 Gatland free tour.

Jamie Roberts confirmed NOT to be in the squad.