British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

First topic message reminder :

Fairly simple, champions cup aside, we have nearly all the information Garland will have to pick the Lions squad, so go ahead name your squad, your captain etc.

Farrell plays 10 and 12.

Too many Welsh and not enough Scots, even reducing the Welsh by two and adding two Scots would have been better.

For a team that had a poor 6 nations to have the second biggest representation, and the Scots who had a good 6 nations, Autumn, and WC to only have 2 is poor.

If Gatland is biased thats poor from a head coach for all nations, his Welsh hat should be off and Lions one on.

If its because Townsend snubbed him, and he said there wouldn't be a Scottish voice to put forward Scottish players, again this is poor, he shouldn't take Townsends snub out on the players.

His team should be impartial, and not need a Scottish voice, the players actions on the pitch is what should be judged.

There will be injuries and I can only hope that the list of players that will be called up is Scot heavy to address the imbalance

tigertattie wrote:In all seriousness though, I've identified two areas of grave concern!

1. He's taken one openside to tour (given that warbs seems to be a 6 these days)
2. What will happen when Sexton is injured? Left with Biggar (and no, Farrell is not a 10. He's a 12 and you don't want to be playing someone out of position against the blackness)

Farrell is a ten playing 12 though and he's a ten that's beaten the All Blacks.

10% of the announced squad won't even make it onto the plane, in my opinion.

Lots of selections I don't agree with but let's put that to one side.
Looking forward to this! Also hoping for a back row of Stanmer, Warburton and Vunipola...

Griff wrote:10% of the announced squad won't even make it onto the plane, in my opinion.

Fingers crossed lady luck picks the right ones to remove!

With the number of Welsh, you would imagine that they are one of the top 3 teams in the NH. If only there was some sort of championship that could sort this out...

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:With the number of Welsh, you would imagine that they are one of the top 3 teams in the NH. If only there was some sort of championship that could sort this out...

Also hiring a Lions Coach who bothers to turn up to non-Welsh games would be a bonus too.

LondonTiger wrote:Representation by Club (correct I think):

Bath: 3
Blues: 1
Exeter: 1
Glasgow: 2
Gloucester: 1
Harlequins: 2
Leicester: 2
Leinster: 5
Munster: 3
Northampton: 2
Ospreys: 4
Saracens: 6
Scarlets: 3
Toulon: 1
Ulster: 3
Wasps: 1
Worcester: 1

Some of those clubs have the potential of a few more BIG games to come. So with injuries likely more on the agenda the bigger the prizes on the horizon.... the list could change a lot between now and the end of the season.

Well, the reason why I spend less time on here is evident on this thread.

There are some serious parochialism going on as always and by the usual members.

No wonder this forum is on it's knees.

There are some seriously troubled people on here, and it stinks. People would not be this vocal down the club/pub or they would end up with their ears swapped around.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:With the number of Welsh, you would imagine that they are one of the top 3 teams in the NH. If only there was some sort of championship that could sort this out...

Wales...blah... Wales...rubbish..... Wales... blah. Anyone would think you'd won the bloody 6N the way you go on. You were 4th! 5th was poor from Wales but 4th is still a disaster (if we'd finished 4th) yet you claim it as some sort of victory?! Very odd.

SecretFly wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Representation by Club (correct I think):

Bath: 3
Blues: 1
Exeter: 1
Glasgow: 2
Gloucester: 1
Harlequins: 2
Leicester: 2
Leinster: 5
Munster: 3
Northampton: 2
Ospreys: 4
Saracens: 6
Scarlets: 3
Toulon: 1
Ulster: 3
Wasps: 1
Worcester: 1

Some of those clubs have the potential of a few more BIG games to come.  So with injuries likely more on the agenda the bigger the prizes on the horizon.... the list could change a lot between now and the end of the season.

True, injuries are likely to happen so hope is not lost for some players who missed out by a very narrow margin.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

tigertattie wrote:In all seriousness though, I've identified two areas of grave concern!

1. He's taken one openside to tour (given that warbs seems to be a 6 these days)
2. What will happen when Sexton is injured? Left with Biggar (and no, Farrell is not a 10. He's a 12 and you don't want to be playing someone out of position against the blackness)

Farrell is a ten playing 12 though and he's a ten that's beaten the All Blacks.

Indeed...he's a top class 10 that's being forced to play 12 to accommodate Ford, and he is doing a very impressive job there also!

LordDowlais wrote:Well, the reason why I spend less time on here is evident on this thread.

There are some serious parochialism going on as always and by the usual members.  

No wonder this forum is on it's knees.

There are some seriously troubled people on here, and it stinks. People would not be this vocal down the club/pub or they would end up with their ears swapped around.

Cheer up you also have a General Election to look forward too.

Looking by position:

LH - Marler, McGrath, Vunipola. Pretty good selection, only Healy can possibly feel hard done by

Hooker: Best, Owens, George. Arguments over Hartley's exclusion will certainly go on...

TH: Furloung, Cole, Sinkler. Don't mind this

Second Row: Henderson, Itoje, A-WJ, Kruis, Lawes. Case for either Gray and Launchbury, but as others have said, it's a strong area so some good players have missed out.

Flankers: POM, Warburton, SOB, Tipuric, Stander (Moriarty)

No 8: Billy V, Faletau, Moriarty (Stander).

The obvious contentious one here is Moriarty ahead of any of Robshaw, Haskell and Watson. To a lesser extent, SOB is lucky as he's not the player he was.

SH: Murray, Webb, Youngs. Only discussion really over the third choice.

10: Sexton, Biggar (Farrell). Would have liked a more creative option (Russell or Ford) but can understand why they were overlooked because of perceived defensive frailties.

12: Farrell, Henshaw, Te'o. At least Roberts missed out, despite rumours otherwise. Dunbar unlucky.

13 - JJ, JD2, Payne (Daly). Ringrose unlucky, and I think Huw Jones would have been in but for injury

Wingers: Daly, North, Nowell, Seymour, Watson, Williams. Looks like one too many to me, but can't really argue with the selections individually

15: Hogg, 1/2p (Daly, Williams, Watson). 1/2p probably a bit lucky, picked on past reputation rather than current form.

Overall the biggest points are a couple of lucky Welshmen (Moriarty, JD2 and perhaps 1/2p) and an under-representation from Scotland - I'd certainly have had at least one Gray in the squad (likely at the expense of Kruis), and I think Watson somewhat hard done by. Robshaw desperately unlucky that his injury through the 6Ns probably did for his chances.

Interesting that Gatland has picked a few of England's 'closers', so perhaps he is intending to use the bench in a similar way...

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

tigertattie wrote:In all seriousness though, I've identified two areas of grave concern!

1. He's taken one openside to tour (given that warbs seems to be a 6 these days)
2. What will happen when Sexton is injured? Left with Biggar (and no, Farrell is not a 10. He's a 12 and you don't want to be playing someone out of position against the blackness)

Farrell is a ten playing 12 though and he's a ten that's beaten the All Blacks.

As is Freddie Burns.

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:With the number of Welsh, you would imagine that they are one of the top 3 teams in the NH. If only there was some sort of championship that could sort this out...

Wales...blah... Wales...rubbish..... Wales... blah. Anyone would think you'd won the bloody 6N the way you go on. You were 4th! 5th was poor from Wales but 4th is still a disaster (if we'd finished 4th) yet you claim it as some sort of victory?! Very odd.

I know, the way the Scotts go on you would think they are now ranked in the top 3 sides in the world. One swallow does not a summer make, I think is the saying. Scotland are a nation full of qualified players through grandparents and residency. Lets wait to see if Scotland can hit the heady heights of 4th again next year before we start with the chest thumping.

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:With the number of Welsh, you would imagine that they are one of the top 3 teams in the NH. If only there was some sort of championship that could sort this out...

Wales...blah... Wales...rubbish..... Wales... blah. Anyone would think you'd won the bloody 6N the way you go on. You were 4th! 5th was poor from Wales but 4th is still a disaster (if we'd finished 4th) yet you claim it as some sort of victory?! Very odd.

I can only presume you didn't watch the Scotland vs. Wales game then? Forget where the table, Scotland the same ammount of head to head games with Lions teams as England!

England 2 (Wales & Scotland)
Scotland 2 (Ireland & Wales)
Wales 1 (Ireland)
Ireland 1 (England)

Somehow we make up only 4.8% of the touring side? Horrifying cronyism by Gatland.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:With the number of Welsh, you would imagine that they are one of the top 3 teams in the NH. If only there was some sort of championship that could sort this out...

Wales...blah... Wales...rubbish..... Wales... blah. Anyone would think you'd won the bloody 6N the way you go on. You were 4th! 5th was poor from Wales but 4th is still a disaster (if we'd finished 4th) yet you claim it as some sort of victory?! Very odd.

I can only presume you didn't watch the Scotland vs. Wales game then? Forget where the table, Scotland the same ammount of head to head games with Lions teams as England!

England 2 (Wales & Scotland)
Scotland 2 (Ireland & Wales)
Wales 1 (Ireland)
Ireland 1 (England)

Somehow we make up only 4.8% of the touring side? Horrifying cronyism by Gatland.

By all means take your anger out on Gatland (but remember that it is a team of selectors, and not just Gatland ). But your constant slagging off of the WHOLE Wales team is pretty low. In doing so you're taking out your ire on the likes of Jake Ball, Scott Williams, Rob Evans et al. who have nothing to do with your gripe.

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:With the number of Welsh, you would imagine that they are one of the top 3 teams in the NH. If only there was some sort of championship that could sort this out...

Wales...blah... Wales...rubbish..... Wales... blah. Anyone would think you'd won the bloody 6N the way you go on. You were 4th! 5th was poor from Wales but 4th is still a disaster (if we'd finished 4th) yet you claim it as some sort of victory?! Very odd.

I can only presume you didn't watch the Scotland vs. Wales game then? Forget where the table, Scotland the same ammount of head to head games with Lions teams as England!

England 2 (Wales & Scotland)
Scotland 2 (Ireland & Wales)
Wales 1 (Ireland)
Ireland 1 (England)

Somehow we make up only 4.8% of the touring side? Horrifying cronyism by Gatland.

By all means take your anger out on Gatland (but remember that it is a team of selectors, and not just Gatland ). But your constant slagging off of the WHOLE Wales team is pretty low. In doing so you're taking out your ire on the likes of Jake Ball, Scott Williams, Rob Evans et al. who have nothing to do with your gripe.

Dan Bigger has just said on Sky that he is lucky that Gatland & Howley are the selectors as with them he has a bit of credit in the bank.

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:With the number of Welsh, you would imagine that they are one of the top 3 teams in the NH. If only there was some sort of championship that could sort this out...

Wales...blah... Wales...rubbish..... Wales... blah. Anyone would think you'd won the bloody 6N the way you go on. You were 4th! 5th was poor from Wales but 4th is still a disaster (if we'd finished 4th) yet you claim it as some sort of victory?! Very odd.

I can only presume you didn't watch the Scotland vs. Wales game then? Forget where the table, Scotland the same ammount of head to head games with Lions teams as England!

England 2 (Wales & Scotland)
Scotland 2 (Ireland & Wales)
Wales 1 (Ireland)
Ireland 1 (England)

Somehow we make up only 4.8% of the touring side? Horrifying cronyism by Gatland.

By all means take your anger out on Gatland (but remember that it is a team of selectors, and not just Gatland ). But your constant slagging off of the WHOLE Wales team is pretty low. In doing so you're taking out your ire on the likes of Jake Ball, Scott Williams, Rob Evans et al. who have nothing to do with your gripe.

Griff, you are one of the most level headed Welsh posters on here, surely you have to look at  the level of representation Wales have in that team and ask some questions.

Warburton (currently injured) is an amazing player. However he was stripped of the Welsh captaincy and was playing very well without that burden. Now all of a sudden is named the Lions captain? It can't be just me who thinks this is a mistake can it?

Tipuric is a class player, a class player who got bullied by Haskell/Clifford and Schooled by Watson in the 6N!

Kruis and AWJ, 2 players who havent played for a long time are prefered to Launchberry or Johnny Gray?

The last time Dan Biggar Played well was the RWC. Ford at Flyhalf had won 16 test matches on the bounce! Russel outplayed Biggar in their head to head too!

You have to see these glaring inconsistencies surely?

With so many English & Irish players likely to be involved in playoffs, its probably wise to have a fair selection of players who will not be. The Welsh players couldn't give a toss about the Pro12 so will likely look after themselves so that they won't get injured.

Somehow we make up only 4.8% of the touring side? Horrifying cronyism by Gatland.

Hard to disagree with that - only crumb of comfort is that it's a bloody tough schedule and there's bound to be casualties so there's a chance to get a few Scots onto the pitch come the final games.

Only slight worry is that the Welsh are touring in the vicinity so Gatters might use that as an excuse to bring in a few more of his pals.

What's the bet that Eddie bloody Butler will still be waxing poetical over the 8 Lions in a very strong Welsh pack (that got walloped last time) come next years 6N.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Tipuric is a class player, a class player who got bullied by Haskell and Schooled by Watson in the 6N!

While getting bullied he turned England over about 3 times and was one of the major reasons we struggled.

Do you not think the way that England humiliated Scotland lost them any 50:50 places. in the same way as England's collapse to Ireland lost the likes of Hartley and Haskell their chance?

Sin é wrote:

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:With the number of Welsh, you would imagine that they are one of the top 3 teams in the NH. If only there was some sort of championship that could sort this out...

Wales...blah... Wales...rubbish..... Wales... blah. Anyone would think you'd won the bloody 6N the way you go on. You were 4th! 5th was poor from Wales but 4th is still a disaster (if we'd finished 4th) yet you claim it as some sort of victory?! Very odd.

I can only presume you didn't watch the Scotland vs. Wales game then? Forget where the table, Scotland the same ammount of head to head games with Lions teams as England!

England 2 (Wales & Scotland)
Scotland 2 (Ireland & Wales)
Wales 1 (Ireland)
Ireland 1 (England)

Somehow we make up only 4.8% of the touring side? Horrifying cronyism by Gatland.

By all means take your anger out on Gatland (but remember that it is a team of selectors, and not just Gatland ). But your constant slagging off of the WHOLE Wales team is pretty low. In doing so you're taking out your ire on the likes of Jake Ball, Scott Williams, Rob Evans et al. who have nothing to do with your gripe.

Dan Bigger has just said on Sky that he is lucky that Gatland & Howley are the selectors as with them he has a bit of credit in the bank.

He's right. On recent form he'd be behind Ford and Russell. Plenty Welsh fans wanted him dropped for Sam Davies only weeks ago.

Still, that all said, Biggar is a big game sort of player, whereas the other players mentioned, whilst all more skilful players, have had poor games under pressure.

I would have taken Ford personally, but I won't be losing sleep over this one.

There is no Scottish forward in the Lions touring party for first time since 1908.

nlpnlp wrote:Do you not think the way that England humiliated Scotland lost them any 50:50 places.  in the same way as England's collapse to Ireland lost the likes of Hartley and Haskell their chance?

Possibly, although Ireland and Wales both losing to Scotland doesn't seem to have benefitted any 50/50 Scots.

I'm not griping about this. Whilst the numbers do look odd given the past 6 Nations, on an individual by individual basis I don't think there are many screaming injustices for Scottish players. Jonny Gray might be hacked off but Joe Launchbury is in exactly the same boat. Both Taylor and Dunbar can have legitimate gripes about Ben Teo, but Taylor missed the 6 Nations and Dunbar was part of the Scotland midfield to be shredded at Twickenham (although I do think the system was as much at fault as the individual players). Still, I wouldn't have picked Teo. Hamish Watson is a fine player and on form, but with Warburton in as captain it was always a question of 2nd/3rd choice openside, and Gatland has gone for SOB and Tipuric. These are undeniably good players so whilst Watson may well hold the trump card in terms of form, I don't think we can say that SOB and Tipuric aren't reasonable choices given past performances.

I honestly think that had Huw Jones and Willem Nel been fully fit we would have had two more Lions at the expense of Payne/JD2 and Sinckler, but they miss out.

We, as a country, just need to keep improving. We need to win meaningful away fixtures in the 6 Nations, and convince people that we can beat teams like Ireland and Wales on their own patch as well as at Twickenham, and consistently. We had a strong year, but Gatland clearly isn't just looking to the last 6 months to pick his squad.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:There is no Scottish forward in the Lions touring party for first time since 1908.

It's still early days. Either of the Grays could easily find themselves being called up, and I reckon two injuries at hooker would see Fraser Brown involved. Harder to say with Hamish Watson, as Robshaw and Haskell could also be on stand by.

Players like George, Itoje, Kruis and Vunipola have a few tasty games in store before they join up with the Lions. There will be injuries.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:With the number of Welsh, you would imagine that they are one of the top 3 teams in the NH. If only there was some sort of championship that could sort this out...

Wales...blah... Wales...rubbish..... Wales... blah. Anyone would think you'd won the bloody 6N the way you go on. You were 4th! 5th was poor from Wales but 4th is still a disaster (if we'd finished 4th) yet you claim it as some sort of victory?! Very odd.

I can only presume you didn't watch the Scotland vs. Wales game then? Forget where the table, Scotland the same ammount of head to head games with Lions teams as England!

England 2 (Wales & Scotland)
Scotland 2 (Ireland & Wales)
Wales 1 (Ireland)
Ireland 1 (England)

Somehow we make up only 4.8% of the touring side? Horrifying cronyism by Gatland.

By all means take your anger out on Gatland (but remember that it is a team of selectors, and not just Gatland ). But your constant slagging off of the WHOLE Wales team is pretty low. In doing so you're taking out your ire on the likes of Jake Ball, Scott Williams, Rob Evans et al. who have nothing to do with your gripe.

Griff, you are one of the most level headed Welsh posters on here, surely you have to look at  the level of representation Wales have in that team and ask some questions.

Warburton (currently injured) is an amazing player. However he was stripped of the Welsh captaincy and was playing very well without that burden. Now all of a sudden is named the Lions captain? It can't be just me who thinks this is a mistake can it?

Tipuric is a class player, a class player who got bullied by Haskell/Clifford and Schooled by Watson in the 6N!

Kruis and AWJ, 2 players who havent played for a long time are prefered to Launchberry or Johnny Gray?

The last time Dan Biggar Played well was the RWC. Ford at Flyhalf had won 16 test matches on the bounce! Russel outplayed Biggar in their head to head too!

You have to see these glaring inconsistencies surely?

I said before the announcement that I wouldn't take Biggar, 1/2p was a 50/50 for me, Moriaty no. But the others I'd take. I'd have taken J Gray, H Watson, possibly Dunbar, Huw Jones I'd picked before his injury. But I haven't stooped to slagging off whole teams and their players.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

nlpnlp wrote:Do you not think the way that England humiliated Scotland lost them any 50:50 places.  in the same way as England's collapse to Ireland lost the likes of Hartley and Haskell their chance?

Possibly, although Ireland and Wales both losing to Scotland doesn't seem to have benefitted any 50/50 Scots.

I'm not griping about this. Whilst the numbers do look odd given the past 6 Nations, on an individual by individual basis I don't think there are many screaming injustices for Scottish players. Jonny Gray might be hacked off but Joe Launchbury is in exactly the same boat. Both Taylor and Dunbar can have legitimate gripes about Ben Teo, but Taylor missed the 6 Nations and Dunbar was part of the Scotland midfield to be shredded at Twickenham (although I do think the system was as much at fault as the individual players). Still, I wouldn't have picked Teo. Hamish Watson is a fine player and on form, but with Warburton in as captain it was always a question of 2nd/3rd choice openside, and Gatland has gone for SOB and Tipuric. These are undeniably good players so whilst Watson may well hold the trump card in terms of form, I don't think we can say that SOB and Tipuric aren't reasonable choices given past performances.

I honestly think that had Huw Jones and Willem Nel been fully fit we would have had two more Lions at the expense of Payne/JD2 and Sinckler, but they miss out.

We, as a country, just need to keep improving. We need to win meaningful away fixtures in the 6 Nations, and convince people that we can beat teams like Ireland and Wales on their own patch as well as at Twickenham, and consistently. We had a strong year, but Gatland clearly isn't just looking to the last 6 months to pick his squad.

So you are defending picking on reputation as opposed to form? Shane Williams is back playing isn't he? Quick release a press statement saying Seymour is dropped and Shane Williams can have one more Lions jolly!

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:With the number of Welsh, you would imagine that they are one of the top 3 teams in the NH. If only there was some sort of championship that could sort this out...

Wales...blah... Wales...rubbish..... Wales... blah. Anyone would think you'd won the bloody 6N the way you go on. You were 4th! 5th was poor from Wales but 4th is still a disaster (if we'd finished 4th) yet you claim it as some sort of victory?! Very odd.

I can only presume you didn't watch the Scotland vs. Wales game then? Forget where the table, Scotland the same ammount of head to head games with Lions teams as England!

England 2 (Wales & Scotland)
Scotland 2 (Ireland & Wales)
Wales 1 (Ireland)
Ireland 1 (England)

Somehow we make up only 4.8% of the touring side? Horrifying cronyism by Gatland.

By all means take your anger out on Gatland (but remember that it is a team of selectors, and not just Gatland ). But your constant slagging off of the WHOLE Wales team is pretty low. In doing so you're taking out your ire on the likes of Jake Ball, Scott Williams, Rob Evans et al. who have nothing to do with your gripe.

Griff, you are one of the most level headed Welsh posters on here, surely you have to look at  the level of representation Wales have in that team and ask some questions.

Warburton (currently injured) is an amazing player. However he was stripped of the Welsh captaincy and was playing very well without that burden. Now all of a sudden is named the Lions captain? It can't be just me who thinks this is a mistake can it?

Tipuric is a class player, a class player who got bullied by Haskell/Clifford and Schooled by Watson in the 6N!

Kruis and AWJ, 2 players who havent played for a long time are prefered to Launchberry or Johnny Gray?

The last time Dan Biggar Played well was the RWC. Ford at Flyhalf had won 16 test matches on the bounce! Russel outplayed Biggar in their head to head too!

You have to see these glaring inconsistencies surely?

I said before the announcement that I wouldn't take Biggar, 1/2p was a 50/50 for me, Moriaty no. But the others I'd take. I'd have taken J Gray, H Watson, possibly Dunbar, Huw Jones I'd picked before his injury. But I haven't stooped to slagging off whole teams and their players.

Your players had a bad 6N! It's not an opinion that is a fact! Apart from the game against Ireland Wales looked absolutely devoid of any cutting edge at all. I know this because it's how Scotland were playing 4 years ago. Lots of possesion, lots of forward dominance but struggling to score tries! Despite this the Welsh backline has more representatives than the most lethal backline in the 6N?

I'm not slagging Wales or the Welsh players off, I'm saying they haven't performed very well but have still been selected by a coach who is either blind or biased.

I tried.

I was battling as to whether it was a good idea to come back on here to take part in a bit of a discussion on today and hope that I'd be hooked...again.

But yet again, this forum is ridiculous. Some posts on here are atrocious and borderline xenophobic.

What's even more disappointing is the sheer lack of talk around the rugby of things, selection criteria, thoughts on gameplan etc.
Instead it's the have and have nots, bitterness and bashing.

Not for me.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:There is no Scottish forward in the Lions touring party for first time since 1908.

I wouldnt be surprised if one was called up before the end of the tour.

Love how Scotland aren't pish (yet still come 4th) for the first time in a Six Nations since its inception  and now they should be making up most of the Lion's squad...

Wasn't there wailing an gnashing of teeth on here in 2013 because Welsh players were 'only picked due to THAT win over England' ?

Hmmmm...

I thought Scotland would have 4-6 players going on tour. Some of their outstanding individuals have been wrongly overlooked imo. I said before the announcement that we have the players to beat the All Blacks and I still stand by that. Can't wait for the Lions to win the series. Come on Lions!

munkian wrote:Love how Scotland aren't pish (yet still come 4th) for the first time in a Six Nations since its inception  and now they should be making up most of the Lion's squad...

Wasn't there wailing an gnashing of teeth on here in 2013 because Welsh players were 'only picked due to THAT win over England' ?

Hmmmm...

Like I said, where have you seen a single Scotland supporter say that. I certainly believe with our improvements, in particular beating Wales and Ireland that we deserve more than 2!

mikey_dragon wrote:I thought Scotland would have 4-6 players going on tour. Some of their outstanding individuals have been wrongly overlooked imo. I said before the announcement that we have the players to beat the All Blacks and I still stand by that. Can't wait for the Lions to win the series. Come on Lions!

They wont be winning this series, I can promise you that!

As an aside, it's shocking that the average Vunipola has got in ahead of Rob Evans. I can see what Gats is doing though. You need Pacific Islanders to beat NZ and the Lions have a few. Hartley should have gone over Best imo, the Lions needed his nasty and ruthless steak against the worlds most ruthless team.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

nlpnlp wrote:Do you not think the way that England humiliated Scotland lost them any 50:50 places.  in the same way as England's collapse to Ireland lost the likes of Hartley and Haskell their chance?

Possibly, although Ireland and Wales both losing to Scotland doesn't seem to have benefitted any 50/50 Scots.

I'm not griping about this. Whilst the numbers do look odd given the past 6 Nations, on an individual by individual basis I don't think there are many screaming injustices for Scottish players. Jonny Gray might be hacked off but Joe Launchbury is in exactly the same boat. Both Taylor and Dunbar can have legitimate gripes about Ben Teo, but Taylor missed the 6 Nations and Dunbar was part of the Scotland midfield to be shredded at Twickenham (although I do think the system was as much at fault as the individual players). Still, I wouldn't have picked Teo. Hamish Watson is a fine player and on form, but with Warburton in as captain it was always a question of 2nd/3rd choice openside, and Gatland has gone for SOB and Tipuric. These are undeniably good players so whilst Watson may well hold the trump card in terms of form, I don't think we can say that SOB and Tipuric aren't reasonable choices given past performances.

I honestly think that had Huw Jones and Willem Nel been fully fit we would have had two more Lions at the expense of Payne/JD2 and Sinckler, but they miss out.

We, as a country, just need to keep improving. We need to win meaningful away fixtures in the 6 Nations, and convince people that we can beat teams like Ireland and Wales on their own patch as well as at Twickenham, and consistently. We had a strong year, but Gatland clearly isn't just looking to the last 6 months to pick his squad.

So you are defending picking on reputation as opposed to form? Shane Williams is back playing isn't he? Quick release a press statement saying Seymour is dropped and Shane Williams can have one more Lions jolly!

I'm saying that I think it's right to look at both. Watson, for example, has been on outstanding form over the last 6 month but, at the start of the 6 Nations, a large number of Scottish fans had him second choice to John Hardie. If you'd asked me to list potential Scottish Lions last summer I'd have never in a million years have tipped Watson as a genuine contender. I agree that solely on form he's unlucky, but players like Tipuric and SOB are still good players and have been around the block.

I actually think the hardest done Scots are Dunbar and Taylor, with Ben Teo being one of the most fortunate picks. Dunbar has been consistently good for Glasgow/Scotland for some time, and plays like the proverbial extra flanker in defence. For me Teo is untested as a Test match starter and not worth his place.

mikey_dragon wrote:As an aside, it's shocking that the average Vunipola has got in ahead of Rob Evans. I can see what Gats is doing though. You need Pacific Islanders to beat NZ and the Lions have a few. Hartley should have gone over Best imo, the Lions needed his nasty and ruthless steak against the worlds most ruthless team.

No, Hartley should not have gone...not good enough, and that's coming from an Englishman.

Mako however offers a huge carrying game. From the bench he will be invaluable to the Lions.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

nlpnlp wrote:Do you not think the way that England humiliated Scotland lost them any 50:50 places.  in the same way as England's collapse to Ireland lost the likes of Hartley and Haskell their chance?

Possibly, although Ireland and Wales both losing to Scotland doesn't seem to have benefitted any 50/50 Scots.

I'm not griping about this. Whilst the numbers do look odd given the past 6 Nations, on an individual by individual basis I don't think there are many screaming injustices for Scottish players. Jonny Gray might be hacked off but Joe Launchbury is in exactly the same boat. Both Taylor and Dunbar can have legitimate gripes about Ben Teo, but Taylor missed the 6 Nations and Dunbar was part of the Scotland midfield to be shredded at Twickenham (although I do think the system was as much at fault as the individual players). Still, I wouldn't have picked Teo. Hamish Watson is a fine player and on form, but with Warburton in as captain it was always a question of 2nd/3rd choice openside, and Gatland has gone for SOB and Tipuric. These are undeniably good players so whilst Watson may well hold the trump card in terms of form, I don't think we can say that SOB and Tipuric aren't reasonable choices given past performances.

I honestly think that had Huw Jones and Willem Nel been fully fit we would have had two more Lions at the expense of Payne/JD2 and Sinckler, but they miss out.

We, as a country, just need to keep improving. We need to win meaningful away fixtures in the 6 Nations, and convince people that we can beat teams like Ireland and Wales on their own patch as well as at Twickenham, and consistently. We had a strong year, but Gatland clearly isn't just looking to the last 6 months to pick his squad.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, fEs - we do need to get better as a national squad and pick up more wins on the road, and really force the coach's hands. However, would anybody really grumble if Gray was picked over Henderson? Or Dunbar over Te'o? Or Watson over Tipuric? Or Russell over Biggar? I am sure there would have been a few, but on the main I think most objective observers can see that these individuals are good enough, and were they selected it would have been accepted as a decent pick. However, in nearly every 50/50 call, the coaching panel have chosen to favour somebody else over the Scottish counterpart. I really feel that this selection diminishes the Lions, and what is should stand for.

How many Southern Hemishpere players in the Lions squad.....

I'll take people seriously as Lions fans if they can say why player X should have gone instead of player Y rather than just because which team they play for.

GeordieFalcon wrote:How many Southern Hemishpere players in the Lions squad.....

If they play for England, Ireland, Scotland or Wales then why does it matter ?

munkian wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:How many Southern Hemishpere players in the Lions squad.....

If they play for England, Ireland, Scotland or Wales then why does it matter ?

Well its not a great advertisement for NH rugby.

munkian wrote:I'll take people seriously as Lions fans if they can say why player X should have gone instead of player Y rather than just because which team they play for.

I think they have

Form over the last year

Being injured and not playing

Additionally offerings a different style of play


A thing to remember when people say Scotland have only been better this 6 nations. Not true

We are 5 th in the world based on the last years performances

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Warburton (currently injured) is an amazing player. However he was stripped of the Welsh captaincy and was playing very well without that burden. Now all of a sudden is named the Lions captain? It can't be just me who thinks this is a mistake can it?

Just to pick up this point. Hartley bottled the Saints captaincy, done OK with England since?

munkian wrote:I'll take people seriously as Lions fans if they can say why player X should have gone instead of player Y rather than just because which team they play for.

Which is the problem, is there much to draw between Tipuric and Watson at the moment? Probably not, Watson got the better of him in their head to head, but Tipuric has a longer track record and has a better reputation.

Hence a 50-50 call IMO, Gatland went with who was familiar with.

I'd imagine the case would be the same with Biggar and Russel. Biggar has been rancid for the best part of this season, whereas Russel has been scintilating or suicidal. Again bolied down to it, it's another 50-50, to which Gatland went with who he is familiar with.

I'd be struggling to isolate a Welsh poster on here who was happy with their teams performance this 6N.

The fact that all the 50-50 calls went the other way and Gatland himself was insulted by Townsend's decision to take Scotland on tour as their head coach has cost the Scottish players dearly.

Another poster said :

SecretFly wrote:Townsend is to 'blame'.  He presumed to say 'No' to Warren.  Warren then told the Scottish players/and media directly that there would be consequences.  He didn't exactly conceal it - the writing was on the wall; Townsend snubs Gatland and consequences would come.

The selection leaves a sour taste in the mouth because for players and fans that are into it (the Lions) it's bluntly mean-spirited in many ways.

Then the Scottish selection of two - two players from Scotland worthy of the Lion shirt after the 6N?  An insult - nothing less; and from here in Gatland should be asked by any Scottish media in attendance at any Lions event to explain his comments that having no Scottish coach in the Lions set up would mitigate against Scottish players being chosen for the Lions squad.  To me, that was a classic Gatlanian barb with intent and he should be made explain the loaded comment in light of what the players are capable of and how few of them made the plane.

Secretfly is Irish i believe so it's not just the us Scots that think the selection is a poor one.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

munkian wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:How many Southern Hemishpere players in the Lions squad.....

If they play for England, Ireland, Scotland or Wales then why does it matter ?

Well its not a great advertisement for NH rugby.

Apart from its a successful entity over here and attracts players from all over the world.

Some of the best players in the Irish squad were born in the SH, I assume you still cheer them on ?