England tour to Argentina

First topic message reminder :

It has been touched on in other threads but thought it was worth its own post.  
With the Lions touring to NZ there will be an opportunity for EJ to test some fresh talent.  Who would you like to see?

Interesting fact...the last time Wade was capped was the last tour to Argentina when he was also called into the Lions.
Clifford is now ruled out as having shoulder surgery - http://www.quins.co.uk/news/jack-clifford-injury-update/

I am working on the assumption that Lions call ups will be - Hartley, George, Cole, Itoje, Lawes, Mako V, Billy V, Launchbury, Youngs, Farrell, Joseph, Watson, Daly, Haskell, Brown......(there will be others I am sure and possibly some of these wont go).

But on that assumption and picking 2 in each position I would think that the tour selection group could be something like this - (from EPS and Saxons)
1. Marler, Genge
2. Taylor, LCD
3. Sinkler, Catt (not sure if he is TH or LH)
4. Kruis, Attwood
5. Ewels , ?
6. Robshaw, D.Armond
7. T.Harrison, T.Wood
8. Hughes, J.Chisholm
9. Care, Robson
10. Ford, Slade
11.J.May, Rokko
12.Ben Teo, ?
13.? ?
14.Yarde, Wade
15.Lozowski, Goode

Those are the chaps that I can think of from the current EPS and Saxons - There are a number that I am sure wont be included and a number from outside the squads that might have a run.
Guys like Solomona have been mentioned, Underhill, Beaumont, youngsters from U20s - Malinder, Marchant,
Who is a good option for 13?

UPDATED WITH SELECTED SQUAD -
Forwards
Will Collier (Harlequins, uncapped)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
Dylan Hartley – captain (Northampton Saints, 84 caps)
James Haskell (Wasps, 75 caps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 8 caps)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 42 caps)
Matt Mullan (Wasps, 15 caps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 55 caps)
Sam Underhill (Ospreys/Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 50 caps)

Backs
Mike Brown – vice-captain (Harlequins, 60 caps)
Danny Care – vice captain (Harlequins, 71 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (London Irish, uncapped)
Nathan Earle (Saracens, uncapped)
George Ford – vice captain (Bath Rugby, 35 caps)
Piers Francis (Auckland Blues/Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Sam James (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens, uncapped)
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Maunder (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 25 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks, uncapped)

Unavailable for selection due to injury
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Sam Jones (Wasps)

England’s two-Test tour to Argentina
Estadio San Juan del Bicentenario, San Juan, Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 10th June
Estadio Brigadier General Estanislao Lopez, Santa Fe. Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 17th June

Scottrf Burgess did okay in the circumstances but was still rushed in and scapegoated. Lancaster and Farrell Sr gave him the hospital pass.

Jones has made the England team a bit nastier and tougher. I actually don't have anything against having good discipline like Lancaster wanted but his team lacked bite as a result. Robshaw is a good bloke. Hartley is different type of captain, has more of an edge.

Again it's down to balance. I think Lancaster's side needed a bit more toughness whilst Jones' doesn't need to be so nasty IMO.

Players like Barritt,Morgan and Launchbury didn't seem fully fit in the RWC.

England were caught out by Wales with Farrell and Barritt in the centres - weren't they? Hardly an optimum partnership. Farrell wasn't being used much at 12 at the time and Barritt is IMO simply too slow for 13 and was probably carrying an injury.

Farrell also picked up that YC in the centres vs the Aussies.

You also had 3 underpowered players in the pack - T.Youngs, Parling and Wood.

Scottrf Itoje had won an AP title and was picked for the Saxons, to be fair who was on the radar, just not high enough.

To be fair though there's hardly an extra edgy side to jones team is there. You say Hartley but the only.remote niggle I've seen from him in an England short relatively recently was sa yellow card under Lancaster. The wales.game.from the WC was also very similar to last year's 6n s including the raft of subs and heavy pressure from wales in the last 20. Again if you want to ignore the pattern of the game and just look at the score but that's simplistic.

To bring this remotely round to Argentina I'm not even sure there's that much nasty in this new breed. Just upped.skill levels on show at least at u20 level. Let's hope it converts to the full side.

Ok, enough of the history...

Next major AI game - November:
•England v Argentina at Twickenham Stadium, London 2:30pm

.....Jones wants to name his strongest pack...with the right balance of sheer power and technique.

Assuming the starlets come through Argentina in credit....whats your starting pack?

Marler George Cole
Launchbury Itoje
Robshaw underhill
Vunipola if fit or Hughes.

Though if genge proves stable in the scrum or Sinckler bolts...

See I think im looking at:

Marler George Cole
Kruis Lawes
Robshaw Billy Underhill

Lock is the big dilemma....who do you pick...all 4 options are quality and offer something slightly different.

no 7 & 1/2 it's the players being made captain and VC - Brown,Farrell Jr and Hartley - adding a nasty edge.

Brown gets wound up and Farrell Jr occasionally does a cheapshot here and there - just gets away with it. Hartley's disciplinary record is one of the worst in world rugby.

The pattern is simple - England won last year and lost in the RWC. Fine margins - unfortunately Lancaster ended on the wrong side more often than not.

I don't know why you think they are that similar when the result is clearly different.

England still have Hartley for the Argentina tour and Brown....


No 7 & 1/2 you want Itoje to run the lineout?


Geordiefalcon

Depending on how tours go -

Vunipola,George,Cole
Kruis,Itoje
Robshaw,Underhill
Vunipola

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ok, enough of the history...

Next major AI game - November:
•England v Argentina at Twickenham Stadium, London 2:30pm

.....Jones wants to name his strongest pack...with the right balance of sheer power and technique.

Assuming the starlets come through Argentina in credit....whats your starting pack?

Marler, Hartley, Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Robshaw, Underhill/Haskell, Hughes

To be honest a lot depends upon who is fit, and how certain players go during the summer and the start of next season. If you had asked me two months ago I would have been unequivocal in my support for Jamie George, but I felt that he looked tired in the end of season run-in and was outplayed by Brits in set piece as well as loose. Assuming that we have guys on top form then I would actually look at:

Marler, Cole, Itoje, Kruis, Robshaw, Billy V all starting, with hooker and 7 up for grabs. Hartley and Haskell would need to be on top form for me to consider them, and if not starting neither would make my bench. George shoudl probably come in if he is on top form (irrespective of Hartley form) but that may not happen with what will be a late start to the 17/18 season for him.

Very true, it depends whos fit and in form....but it does look like we have genuine top class competition now in many positions...and after this summer maybe even more options.

Is it a case of horses for courses in some positions?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ok, enough of the history...

Next major AI game - November:
•England v Argentina at Twickenham Stadium, London 2:30pm

.....Jones wants to name his strongest pack...with the right balance of sheer power and technique.

Assuming the starlets come through Argentina in credit....whats your starting pack?

The pack I'd be looking to build towards over the next 12 months is:
Mako Vunipola, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Kruis, Robshaw, Underhill, Billy Vunipola
Hartley, Marler, Cole, Launchbury, Hughes

But the tight 5 all have a tough Lions tour and Vunipola is obviously currently crocked. We do have lots of depth around the tight 5, but not so much in the back row.

Londontiger that's fair. George's form has dipped a bit in the latter stages of the season. I thought he did well enough vs Clermont but hasn't been at his best in other games.

Haskell also hasn't hit the heights of 2016.

Launchbury was unfortunate not to make the Lions. Him and Lawes in the 2nd row again would not surprise.

Still the Lions tour is a long one, still opportunities for call ups.

So Robbo

Do you not think the Curry's or Mercer will make an impact over the next 12 months?

I guess the current side is particularly young anyway.

All players involved heavily under Lancaster. And yes Itoje to run the lineout. I was umming over Kruis but didn't want the argument about leaving out Itoje! Well if you just want to look at results the england games were polar opposites. Not sure anyone watching he 2 games would have thought so though.

GeordieFalcon wrote:So Robbo

Do you not think the Curry's or Mercer will make an impact over the next 12 months?

I guess the current side is particularly young anyway.

Plans have to be flexible if an outstanding individual comes through and completely outplays the guys you're looking at. I guess what I'm saying is if everyone was fit, I'd have to go with those guys (although I'm expecting a few to miss the series).

I'd say for the Curry's and Mercer, you've got Robshaw who's nearing the end and Hughes who hasn't taken to Internationals like a duck to water, so we might be looking for a couple of new back row depending on how those two go. For Genge, Ewels and Isiekwe, they have a lot of names to leapfrog before they can get into the 23.

It's still very early for all 3 of the players you mention, and if they don't get involved in the squad until South Africa in 2018, then they would still be ahead of the curve in terms of their individual age profiles and getting in ahead of the 2019 World Cup.

Surely a lot will depend on how clubs do?

Bath's academy seems to be bearing fruit now and seem to be quite a few youngsters who if they perform well could propel Bath up the table and catapult more Bath players into England contention.

Sure 5th is pretty good but I think Bath will feel they can do better.

If Underhill is indeed the messiah - Underhill,Louw,Faletau looks like a very strong backrow.

Bath have a few players around the fringes, Catt, Ewels and Mercer being the guys who could break in and make a splash.

However, Catt is at best behind all of Mako, Marler, Mullan and Genge, Ewels is behind Itoje, Kruis, Launchbury and Lawes and Mercer is behind Vunipola and Hughes.

Mullan, Genge and Hughes (to a lesser extent) aren't established interantionals, so club performances could see Catt and Mercer jump the queue, but I think they'd all need to get a run because of an injury to get in ahead of proven performers.

Wasn't actually referring to Catt who I think has very little chance.

I was thinking more of Auterac, Ewels,Mercer (the younger) and Underhill plus Jack Walker (though don't know enough about him).

Behind Hartley and George, hooker is still up for grabs and if either is injured....

beshocked wrote:Wasn't actually referring to Catt who I think has very little chance.

I was thinking more of Auterac, Ewels,Mercer (the younger) and Underhill plus Jack Walker (though don't know enough about him).

Behind Hartley and George, hooker is still up for grabs and if either is injured....

Well Auterac is in the same queue as Catt would have been - although I think Catt has been called up to a recent squad? Ewels and Mercer as discussed have varying degrees of players in front of them.

Underhill is in line for England caps (and starts) now, and I think he'll be able to build on that in what is a weak area for us - flanker - especially in terms of depth.

I guess we also have Exeter and Wasps churning out good, English forwards. Taylor and Cowan-Dickie are both there or thereabouts when discussing hooker choices.

Ewels for now seems the choice back-up to the standout 4 locks.

It's understandable why as well. I don't think Ewels has what it will take to break through those 4 but he won't let the side down when needed. He has a big engine, is very solid in defence, solid jumper, hits his rucks well, carries reliably if not spectacularly. He just looks a solid young lock.

I'd be looking at:

Marler Hartley Cole
Lawes Kruis
Haskell Billy Underhill

With Genge/Mako, George, Itoje/Launch, Curry, Hughes giving able cover.

2015 is history, the question is can we progress from this point such that we can compete with the AB's - Specifically with the power, pace and skill of their all court attack play?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'd be looking at:

Marler Hartley Cole
Lawes Kruis
Haskell Billy Underhill

With Genge/Mako, George, Itoje/Launch, Curry, Hughes giving able cover.

Looks decent to me, Sinckler has a long way to go before he forces himself ahead of Cole whilst Marler is so far superior at scrum time to everyone Jones will pick him. Lock is a toss up really, Kruis or Launchbury with Itoje or Lawes, any combination is good enough. The back row is more of a conundrum.

Our pack is reasonable and continues to development in its quality and depth, however by comparison our backs are stalling and so it is here that we need to orchestrate a step progression if we are to compete with the AB's.

I'm hoping that everyone will learn from this summers Lions tour and our future selections reflect a fresh understanding of the need for power, pace, width, skill and intelligence.  

Obviously we're in a better position than we were 4 years ago, but the opportunities to progress sufficiently are limited.

Maybe NZ's standards will level off?

I wouldn't be at-all surprised if Lancaster were to be England Head Coach again in future. He was pretty inexperienced when appointed, some of his attempts at creating culture lacked a bit of finese, he hadn't worked out how to get the team to win tight matches, didn't have the best coaches available to him, and he made some selection errors (particularly under the ultimate pressure of the home World Cup). He also had a real horror draw in the WC - a draw which always meant England had a real chance of early elimination. Nonetheless, he remade the England side in relatively short order, and clearly laid the groundwork for the success England have experienced since. If he hadn't made the (pre-planned?) substitition of Burgess in the Wales game things might have turned out quite differently.

With the pack I really don't think it matters which of the 4 seconds rows are selected - they are all excellent. I don't think it matters much either whether it is Marler, Vunipola or Genge who is starting, Hartley or George, or Cole or Sinkler (we really need another TH option btw). The key thing is finding a backrow which can cope with Ireland away from home. Fortunately, things are looking pretty promising - Vunipola, Hughes, Mercer, Robshaw, the Currys, Underhill, Itoje and Haskell - there is enough talent there to forge a very impressive backrow.

We have huge talent in the backs - Watson, Nowell, Slade, Devoto, Mallinder, Farrell, Ford, Daly, Joseph, Marchant, Earls, Lozowski, Solomona, Malins (and almost any of the current u20s backs). This is a time of plenty - if we can get the balance in the pack right then that group has the ability to worry any side in the world.

DaveM wrote:I wouldn't be at-all surprised if Lancaster were to be England Head Coach again in future.

Sorry DaveM but when exactly is this 2nd coming?

Fact is he is not Head Coach material and won't be anywhere near the England set again this century.

kingelderfield wrote:

DaveM wrote:I wouldn't be at-all surprised if Lancaster were to be England Head Coach again in future.

Sorry DaveM but when exactly is this 2nd coming?

Fact is he is not Head Coach material and won't be anywhere near the England set again this century.

so why was he Head Coach of England at a RWC then?

Because he did a good job as caretaker and was the best guy who applied.

Lancaster did ok up until the WC. He lost his bottle and didn't seem to know what direction to take the team. He won't come back, I'm pretty confident in that, why would he?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Lancaster did ok up until the WC. He lost his bottle and didn't seem to know what direction to take the team. He won't come back, I'm pretty confident in that, why would he?

It's pretty clear from the history of the RWC since 2003 that you really need to have coached at an RWC to perform well at one. Johnson hadn't, Lancaster hadn't, even Graham Henry stuffed it up at the first attempt.

Lancaster has to work his way back up - I would imagine he is targeting taking on the Head Coach role at a minor nation post 2019 and targeting a bigger one after that. Whether he gets a second shot at the England job will depend on whether Eddie really does leave after 2019 and how well the likes of other contenders like Borthwick and O'Shea perform between now and then. My guess is that Lancaster would need longer - and a stint as a head coach elsewhere - to earn another crack at England. But he's still under 50 and I could see him coming back into contention post 2023. I can also see him wanting to do it: he's an ambitious guy and he's got unfinished business with England.

NZ didn't go out of the pool stages of the RWC in their own RWC though.

Johnson at least managed to get England to 1/4 finals.

Lancaster wasn't taking England forwards. I don't think he's bad as a caretaker coach - someone who will get generally solid results but I don't see him who will win serious silverware as things stand.

Lancaster inherited a right mess.

England made significant progress initially (first two years) but then stagnated a touch and of course the WC was not good. In hindsight something should have happened with the coaching staff after the 2013 defeat in Cardiff.

Jones inherited a much better set-up than Lancaster did, and surely some credit is owed to Lancaster for that?

Anyway the back row spots aren't a worry for a while...cos once Mark Wilson has done a one man demolition job on the Argentinians...he'll be a fixture in the side!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/06/07/england-attack-coach-glen-ella-brings-denny-solomona-speed-argentina/amp/

Interesting article. Ella namechecking Solomona, Mallinder and the Currys as potential stars.

The article also suggests a centre partnership of Lozowski and Slade to start and the telegraph is usually bang on or near enough.

Bad news in the back row - with Robshaw a doubt and Ben Curry, Sam Underhill and Nathan Hughes all sitting out of training as precautions, but that could be the first choice back row stripped out.

In today's Times it mentions the back row issues. Robshaw injured an ankle before flying out and is a serious doubt, while Underhill and Hughes have yet to participate in any training sessions due to the injuries they picked up in the last weekend of the season.  Curry meanwhile limped out of training yesterday.

LondonTiger wrote:In today's Times it mentions the back row issues. Robshaw injured an ankle before flying out and is a serious doubt, while Underhill and Hughes have yet to participate in any training sessions due to the injuries they picked up in the last weekend of the season.  Curry meanwhile limped out of training yesterday.

Its very early days but Wilson may be able to provide some decent cover. I do think at this time it is Robshaw we will miss the most. Won't be easy

Mark Wilson will provide excellent cover...have no fear.

Huge work rate, huge tackle count, hits the breakdown intelligently and is tough...and he is a leader.

This weekend we will also get to see what a lot of people class as England's ideal 10/12 combo. They'll be wearing red, but it will still be interesting from an English perspective.

Surprised that England aren't considering an Exeter centre combo of Devoto-Slade. I think that would make more sense.

3 players who play most of their club rugby at 10 in the XV.

I do feel like directness is underrated when there is not enough of it.

Needs to be enough players in the team to get you over the gain line.

Ultimately it comes down to balance.

Having playmakers in 3 positions seems a bit much IMO.


cascough a 10-12-13 of Farrell-T'eo and Davies is lacking a bit of creativity though. Too much boshing IMO. Perhaps if the Lions had C.Smith at 13, they'd be fine but Lions don't have that.

Joseph would be a better fit I think.

Any news on when we might get a team announcement? Argentina is 5 (?) hours behind, so 10am there time would be 3pm our time? Any time after then?

Saturday is shaping up to be a great day. Lions in the morning, full program of International rugby throughout the day finished of by Argentina vs England, then on the small screen I'll have England vs Australia cricket in the Champions Trophy and possibly even England vs Scotland in the WCQ in roundball.

8.30pm ko on Saturday? Some great youngsters in that squad, although Hartley, Launchbury and Robshaw should be with the Lions.

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