England tour to Argentina

First topic message reminder :

It has been touched on in other threads but thought it was worth its own post.  
With the Lions touring to NZ there will be an opportunity for EJ to test some fresh talent.  Who would you like to see?

Interesting fact...the last time Wade was capped was the last tour to Argentina when he was also called into the Lions.
Clifford is now ruled out as having shoulder surgery - http://www.quins.co.uk/news/jack-clifford-injury-update/

I am working on the assumption that Lions call ups will be - Hartley, George, Cole, Itoje, Lawes, Mako V, Billy V, Launchbury, Youngs, Farrell, Joseph, Watson, Daly, Haskell, Brown......(there will be others I am sure and possibly some of these wont go).

But on that assumption and picking 2 in each position I would think that the tour selection group could be something like this - (from EPS and Saxons)
1. Marler, Genge
2. Taylor, LCD
3. Sinkler, Catt (not sure if he is TH or LH)
4. Kruis, Attwood
5. Ewels , ?
6. Robshaw, D.Armond
7. T.Harrison, T.Wood
8. Hughes, J.Chisholm
9. Care, Robson
10. Ford, Slade
11.J.May, Rokko
12.Ben Teo, ?
13.? ?
14.Yarde, Wade
15.Lozowski, Goode

Those are the chaps that I can think of from the current EPS and Saxons - There are a number that I am sure wont be included and a number from outside the squads that might have a run.
Guys like Solomona have been mentioned, Underhill, Beaumont, youngsters from U20s - Malinder, Marchant,
Who is a good option for 13?

UPDATED WITH SELECTED SQUAD -
Forwards
Will Collier (Harlequins, uncapped)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
Dylan Hartley – captain (Northampton Saints, 84 caps)
James Haskell (Wasps, 75 caps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 8 caps)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 42 caps)
Matt Mullan (Wasps, 15 caps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 55 caps)
Sam Underhill (Ospreys/Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 50 caps)

Backs
Mike Brown – vice-captain (Harlequins, 60 caps)
Danny Care – vice captain (Harlequins, 71 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (London Irish, uncapped)
Nathan Earle (Saracens, uncapped)
George Ford – vice captain (Bath Rugby, 35 caps)
Piers Francis (Auckland Blues/Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Sam James (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens, uncapped)
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Maunder (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 25 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks, uncapped)

Unavailable for selection due to injury
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Sam Jones (Wasps)

England’s two-Test tour to Argentina
Estadio San Juan del Bicentenario, San Juan, Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 10th June
Estadio Brigadier General Estanislao Lopez, Santa Fe. Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 17th June

Scary that Mallinder is being considered as a starter after some of his horror shows in defence this season.

If those are Taylor's stats, he's underpowered. I don't see anything in him that screams out future Int. LCD and George are much better players imo.

beshocked wrote:At 6,2 - 16 and a half stone is he really that small? Sure he's not as heavy as some of the other hookers but surely he could put on a bit of weight?

I remember a few years ago some of the Sarries forwards like Kruis and George bulking up as a result of the physical beating by Clermont. I don't think it's impossible for Taylor to get a bit more power.

Actually I think he's pumped up enough and though can be overpowered in the tight, he is definitely top notch in the loose playing the 4th flanker role. I put him 4th behind LC-D who is naturally the more physical.

His actual stats are a bit of a mystery. The Wasps details;

Player Stats
Position: Hooker
Weight: 96kg / 15st 2lbs
Height: 183cm / 6ft 0in
DOB: 11/11/1991
Nationality: England

Where as the RFU have him at 181cm 104kg which I imagine:) are the more accurate.

L C-D

DOB: 20/06/1993
BIRTHPLACE: Truro
HEIGHT: 6’0 / 1.84m
WEIGHT: 17st 8lbs / 112kg

No 7&1/2 wrote:When you consider the wingers we have coming through in solomona cokanasiga earle...A couple of them grabbing their chance here may allow Watson or even Nowell to drop back to full back.

I hope Earle pushes on, he's got everything going for him though my perception says he lacks confidence.

I just can't warm to Solomona which at one level makes me a hypocrite as I've always been taken with Hughes and when you get down to bare bones they're both 3 year qualifiers.

I haven't seen Cokanasiga play (I don't think he's in the Irish 1st team - he definitely didn't play in the playoff last week) is he injured? One for the future perhaps.

Both Nowell or Watson could play 15, my preference would be Watson for his pace.

Injured and one for the future. I'd be very surprised if solomona doesn't end up as a first choice winger for us. Not sure earle lacks confidence, ain't seen that for Saracens or in the england xv on Sunday. I'd imagine he's going to be first choice next year especially if williams is moved to full back....why didn't Goode wear his saracens socks?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Injured and one for the future. I'd be very surprised if solomona doesn't end up as a first choice winger for us. Not sure earle lacks confidence, ain't seen that for Saracens or in the england xv on Sunday.  I'd imagine he's going to be first choice next year especially if williams is moved to full back....why didn't Goode wear his saracens socks?

Yer I noticed the same with Brits.

Like I say I'd really like to see Earle kick on

Next year should be the making if him. Exciting time to be an England fan.

If Tommy Taylor is 6'2 and 16.5 St then I'm a monkeys uncle!

Never in a million years.

Is that Geordie Charlie D. Falcon coming over all origin and species?

1.Genge 2.Hartley 3.Collier 4.Launchbury 5.Ewels 6.Robshaw 7.Underhill 8.Hughes
9.Care 10.Ford 11.May 12.Devoto 13.Slade 14.Earle 15.Brown

16.Taylor 17.Mullan 18.Williams 19.Isiekwe 20.Wilson 21.Maunder 22.James 23.Mallinder

How about that for a test side?

It's as close to a powerful set-piece as available in that squad. Slade offers a second goal kicker and touch finder to take pressure off youngs. Devoto and Slade have at least some familiarity from Chiefs. Ford and Devoto are familiar with one another from their Bath days.

Slade also adds a hugely needed defensive organiser with Farrell missing. It's a lesser mentioned part of his skill set but he reads the game well and is an outstanding tackler. It might be viewed as a controversial statement but I'd actually argue Slade has better technique in the tackle than Farrell although he isn't quite as powerful or aggressive.

If fit jones will tie solomona to England.

kingelderfield wrote:Is that Geordie Charlie D. Falcon coming over all origin and species?

I know ford is small, but he's brave little fella. Takes some big old hits and just shrugs it off.

Can James not play 12? He's a big lad and looked very direct. Or is he not a good enough playmaker at 12?

They were his just Junior club socks

GeordieFalcon wrote:I know ford is small, but he's brave little fella. Takes some big old hits and just shrugs it off.

Can James not play 12? He's a big lad and looked very direct. Or is he not a good enough playmaker at 12?

James spent most of the match at 12 after Lozowski went off, and I thought he played better at 12 than 13.

I've only seen the highlights poorfour and I thought in those James looked good. Ran hard, and was physical. , yet his offload for Earles try showed he has another side to him aswell.

Surely it's an option.

27 unavailable players then, but I still think this is a very decent looking squad.

The focus appears to be on flanker, tight-head, 12, and wing (possibly to release a player to fullback):

Flanker: Underhill, and the Currys are fantastically exciting prospects. England have had an on-going weakness at 7 in particular, and I think we are on the brink of fixing that. I'm interested in seeing if Wilson gets any game-time too.
TH: Three options in the squad, with I reckon one place in the wider squad up for grabs. On the other side of the scrum, hopefully Genge will push on.
IC: Somewhat extraordinarily there are six genuine options at 12 in the squad: Devoto, Slade, Mallinder, Lozowski, James and Francis. Like with flanker I think we are just about to move forward here. I thought Devoto was excellent in the Premiership final, Slade good when he came on, and Mallinder played well at FH in the Champions Cup qualifier.
Wing: Earls and Solomona are both fantastic talents, and should release one of Watson and Daly to play 15 by the World Cup. Cokanasiga is also a very exciting player, but one for the 2023 WC I suspect.

As to the lack of number 8 options, I thought Armand had played 8 for Chiefs on quite a few occasions?

Overall there is a very good chance England will be stronger by the autumn as a result of this tour.

Don't worry Calum Chick is coming through at 8

He's the alternative option and style to Billy and Hughes power game.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I know ford is small, but he's brave little fella. Takes some big old hits and just shrugs it off.

Can James not play 12? He's a big lad and looked very direct. Or is he not a good enough playmaker at 12?

Most profiles describe Sam James as being a 10 coming up through the ranks. Certainly he played at l;east a few games there for Sale this season when Mcginty and teh lad from rotherham were struggling (note Will Addison was primary goalkicker in those situations),

No reason he coudl not play 12, and my ideal centre partnership for this tour was, until injury, James 12 and Marchant 13

Hands up, I forgot about James. He does make things very interesting at ic.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Don't worry Calum Chick is coming through at 8

He's the alternative option and style to Billy and Hughes power game.

Don't forget Clifford - he's out this summer because of surgery on a shoulder injury he's been carrying, which might explain why he's not lived up to his promise with England yet. But he's got real skill and pace if he can come back strongly next season.

Absolutely, I think we tend to forget Clifford has been carrying an injury.

Lets hope he really comes to the fore next season.

I'd like to think the revised coaches at Gloucester can fire Morgan to find himself again - there have been flashes latterly this season.

Morgan needs a move.

So as someone who doesn't know this young England squad very well - whom should I be looking out for in particular?

George Carlin wrote:So as someone who doesn't know this young England squad very well - whom should I be looking out for in particular?

Ellis Genge - young prop who is very aggressive in the loose
Nick Isiekwe - the second coming of Maro Itoje
Sam Underhill - the second coming of Jesus
Tom and Ben Curry - 18 year old twin flankers, Tom won MOTM after coming off the bench against the Baa Baas
Nathan Earle/Denny Solomona/Joe Cokanasiga - 3 very explosive wings, at different levels of their careers

BamBam wrote:Ellis Genge - young prop who is very aggressive in the loose
Nick Isiekwe - the second coming of Maro Itoje
Sam Underhill - the second coming of Jesus
Tom and Ben Curry - 18 year old twin flankers, Tom won MOTM after coming off the bench against the Baa Baas
Nathan Earle/Denny Solomona/Joe Cokanasiga - 3 very explosive wings, at different levels of their careers

 

TightHEAD wrote:Morgan needs a move.

Maybe, but the options are limited. There might be a vacancy at Saints but what do they offer more than Gloucester?

The new forwards coach at Gloucester, Johan Ackermann, maybe the making of him.

kingelderfield wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Morgan needs a move.

Maybe, but the options are limited. There might be a vacancy at Saints but what do they offer more than Gloucester?

Apart from finishing above them for 6 seasons in a row, higher attendances and more trophies?

Scottrf wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Morgan needs a move.

Maybe, but the options are limited. There might be a vacancy at Saints but what do they offer more than Gloucester?

Apart from finishing above them for 6 seasons in a row, higher attendances and more trophies?

I'd concede that the champions cup may have a pull, but other than that there's little difference between them. Both clubs are huge under performers.

Remind me when did either club win anything?

kingelderfield wrote:I'd concede that the champions cup may have a pull, but other than that there's little difference between them. Both clubs are huge under performers.

Remind me when did either club win anything?

Serious question?

Saints won the Premiership (and Challenge Cup) 13-14, and finished top the year after, so more recently than anyone except Saracens, Exeter or Leicester (LV Cup).

Actually this season won the A League but we can ignore that.

Mallinder should have got more out of the players definitely. As for Morgan he was neck and neck with billy vunipola but injuries have cut him adrift. Doesn't matter where he is he just needs a long run of being fit. Even then he's probably 4th or 5th choice and likely to fall further behind I'm yhe coming years.

I just read that Wood as been ruled out of the tour to Argentina due to stamping in last fridays game against Stad. Does any one know if he has been replaced by some one any one?

Taylor and schonert injured. Singleton and ford Robinson in.

majesticimperialman wrote:I just read that Wood as been ruled out of the tour to Argentina due to stamping in last fridays game against Stad. Does any one know if he has been replaced by some one any one?

Him and Haskell were replaced by Wilson and Armand

Did not realise Haskell had been replaced.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Taylor and schonert injured. Singleton and ford Robinson in.

Just have to hope that Gatland leaves Hartley well alone (as if..) when the injuries bite on the Lions tour

Not fussed about losing schonert. Hopefully this season Scott Wilson will finally come through injury free and prove the monster he is.

George Carlin wrote:So as someone who doesn't know this young England squad very well - whom should I be looking out for in particular?

I'd just look to see who Jones chooses to start at 7, 12 and 14 (allowing a change at 15). Jones has lots of options to choose from in all 3 positions and if we can identify better options there then the full England side will get considerably stronger. I'd also watch the starting tight-head as if Cole or Sinkler get injured it is not yet clear where we go next.

lostinwales wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Taylor and schonert injured. Singleton and ford Robinson in.

Just have to hope that Gatland leaves Hartley well alone (as if..) when the injuries bite on the Lions tour

I'm interested to see how long the back row injury list would have to grow before Gatland calls up Robshaw.

Poorfour wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Taylor and schonert injured. Singleton and ford Robinson in.

Just have to hope that Gatland leaves Hartley well alone (as if..) when the injuries bite on the Lions tour

I'm interested to see how long the back row injury list would have to grow before Gatland calls up Robshaw.

If Faletau or Stander go down, then Gatland will need another number eight, so Robshaw wouldn't get a call. If POM goes down, then Gatland might think of reallocating one of his locks, so he could be replaced by Launchbury or a Gray brother. An injury to Tipuric could see Gatland reach out to Watson. Most likely chance for Robshaw would be if Warburton got crocked. Gatland probably will have also noted the form of the Scarlets back row, along with late displays by Nathan Hughes, and even the Exeter players.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Taylor and schonert injured. Singleton and ford Robinson in.

Just have to hope that Gatland leaves Hartley well alone (as if..) when the injuries bite on the Lions tour

I'm interested to see how long the back row injury list would have to grow before Gatland calls up Robshaw.

If Faletau or Stander go down, then Gatland will need another number eight, so Robshaw wouldn't get a call. If POM goes down, then Gatland might think of reallocating one of his locks, so he could be replaced by Launchbury or a Gray brother. An injury to Tipuric could see Gatland reach out to Watson. Most likely chance for Robshaw would be if Warburton got crocked. Gatland probably will have also noted the form of the Scarlets back row, along with late displays by Nathan Hughes, and even the Exeter players.

I think one of the Gray brothers is crocked already. Robshaw would make a brilliant tourist, but I'd suspect he is a way down the list. I believe he was in pieces before the last tour (and wasn't in Gatland's thoughts anyway) but in an ideal world both he and Kellybrows should have gone to Oz.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Scary that Mallinder is being considered as a starter after some of his horror shows in defence this season.

If those are Taylor's stats, he's underpowered. I don't see anything in him that screams out future Int. LCD and George are much better players imo.

Funny that since he has been moved to 10 in Myers absence, his defence has looked a lot stronger, not making the positional changers he used to. He actually has been playing quite well, I am beginning to wonder if that might be his better position, huge boot, offers a threat both ball in hand and with his sometimes sublime passing game, seems better defensively and has the subtlety that sometimes Myler lacks. All coming from a 6'5", 17.5st package.

He be one of the biggest FH's ever! He's surely got to stick with 12, hopefully another season will sort him out and iron out these flaws.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Scary that Mallinder is being considered as a starter after some of his horror shows in defence this season.

If those are Taylor's stats, he's underpowered. I don't see anything in him that screams out future Int. LCD and George are much better players imo.

Funny that since he has been moved to 10 in Myers absence, his defence has looked a lot stronger, not making the positional changers he used to. He actually has been playing quite well, I am beginning to wonder if that might be his better position, huge boot, offers a threat both ball in hand and with his sometimes sublime passing game, seems better defensively and has the subtlety that sometimes Myler lacks. All coming from a 6'5", 17.5st package.

Disagree.
Game management awful - Tries to do something heroic every time, little chips over the top which give away possession 3/4 times and make 5 yards the other time.
Can't kick on an angle from hand - A number of times this season he's failed to put the ball into touch from a penalty.
Goal kicking erratic - He has distance but his accuracy isn't high enough.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:He be one of the biggest FH's ever! He's surely got to stick with 12, hopefully another season will sort him out and iron out these flaws.

Saw him play in the U20 JWRC last year vs Scotland. I think the only player on display who was taller was Kitchener's little(!) brother who started on the bench

Mallinder reminds me of a young Twelvetrees but with more pace. He has a huge boot, range to his passing game and an ability to make breaks but he also needs to develop a level head to back them up.

I think he'll come good but I hope he stays at 12. I can't see him developing the consistency to fulfill his potential at 10 and from 15 he wouldn't be involved in the game enough to use his passing game. I could see him forcing things from 15 when he gets opportunities as well.

Unless Sam James takes that 12 spot....

Just watching the barbarians match on Utube. Underhill did his shoulder running into the welsh hooker. Looked like a stinger so I can understand why it hasn't ruled him out.

As for his game he started strongly with some monster hits but then seemed less visible. What is great is that there is a genuine air of menace about him. Its a complete contrast with Harrison who looked very solid but seemed to play like a pussycat.

As for the other new guys (so far) Earle looks good, Haley and James both seem very talented all rounders. Good performances also from the Harlequins axis of Brown, Care, Robshaw

Well if Underhill showed real physicality then that was complimented later by Curry showing real intelligence and technical excellence around the park despite being only 18.

Great for England.